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Ken777
Posts: 10197
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:23 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 48):
Just trying to think of a fair taxation scheme to pay for them. Everyone agrees roads are important and must be paid for.

WHich is why I believe in taking a tax per pound approach. The heavier the car or truck the more damage it will do to the roads.

Add in toll roads that actually add value. The Interstate System is a classic example of roads that should attract tolls.
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:20 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 50):
The heavier the car or truck the more damage it will do to the roads.

Not necessarily true. There is also weight distribution. This is why bridges often have max loads expressed in both a per axle weight, and a total weight. The same load, spread over a larger area, will do less damage. Of course large, low pressure tires are not exactly synonymous with good fuel mileage, so you have to choose which is more important to you. In the end, a 4 wheel drive vehicle may end up with less wear and tear on the road than some of these skinny, high pressure tires you see on high fuel mileage cars.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 46):
Sometimes you have to choose between "state rights" and grossly over paying for 50 programs when one single program could do the job far more efficiently.

Or you could eliminate it at the federal level, and let the states choose what level of medicaid they want to provide and how they want to fund it. Cuts both ways.

[Edited 2011-03-27 18:22:08]
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Topic Author
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:44 am

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 24):
Someone comes up with an idea for a FAIR tax (you pay tax for exactly as much as you use) and people start to whine about taxes.

It's still ridiculous because as already been posted, the current taxes on gasoline would not be dropped.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
A per mileage tax is double taxation.

And doubling your fuel tax wouldn't be?

And I can lower my fuel burden by driving a more fuel efficient vehicle or using more fuel-efficient driving habits. It becomes very difficult to do the same with mileage.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 46):
That shifts even more of a burden on those in the lower income brackets. Of course there would need to be a discussion on what services to tax. Probably not doctors, but certainly lawyers and accountants and other non-critical services.

No it doesn't - not if implemented correctly. The government already knows what the cost of living in each area of the country is, and tax returns would be sent to cover the taxes spent on basic necessities (housing, food, clothing, etc.). Anything above what is needed to survive is taxed equally - those nice cars, PS3s, big-screen LCD TVs, and everything else we always see in "poor" neighborhoods.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
Because of under investment in our infrastructure by the federal government, we have poor public transport and are forced to drive - especially outside the Bay Area.

Most areas of the country, except for maybe NYC and DC have "poor" public transportation systems, especially outside of major cities. So what's your point here?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 48):
Those issues are no different from those with a mileage tax. They have been solved. A $20 device can know how much time you have spent driving on public roadways.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 48):
No, definitely not. This is about putting an (anonymous) GPS unit and identifier on your car, counting your miles or hours spent driving on public roads. It is an alternative to a higher gas tax.

Um, just how would a GPS tracker be "anonymous"?


Quoting Flighty (Reply 33):
That is fine, but I am not sure miles are the right way to do it. TIME might be the right way to do it. Hours of driving on public roadways.

That's a HORRIBLE idea. I do less damage to the road when I'm stuck in rush-hour traffic or a traffic jam because of an accident and it takes me 1 hour to go a few miles than I do if I'm driving at 70 mph on open freeway. But with your idea, I guess I could show up late to work and leave early. Boss: "Why are you late to work and leaving early?" Me: "Um, it cost me more to sit in traffic to get here and leave on-time".
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14144
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RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:01 am

This idea is absolute folly. It makes not sense , and it does not take into account time spent on private roads, parking decks., and offroad.

The true way and simplest way to get a tax per mile and an increase in revenue that offsets increased costs, is to tie the taxes more directly to the cost of gas. Currently we have a fixed tax per gallon. I think the Governemnt should make it a percentage. That way when gas costs more, they don't have to waste time thinking of new ways to cover road building costs that are skyrocketing due to higher oil prices. Also higher gas prices would shoot costs higher sooner forcing folks to conserve oil or use alternative transportation.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
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RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:59 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 52):
Me: "Um, it cost me more to sit in traffic to get here and leave on-time".

Congestion pricing. You absolutely cause a traffic problem which requires millions of dollars in road expansion to fix. Maybe people ought to pay for the resource they are using... road time is one way



Quoting casinterest (Reply 53):
d it does not take into account time spent on private roads, parking decks., and offroad.

Sure it can. Any GPS you buy understands the difference. They will not be reading their odometer... it would involve a small black box in the rear window.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 52):
Um, just how would a GPS tracker be "anonymous"?

Good point. We would have to "trust" the mileage is being computed honestly. There would be a computer program (not a human being) that totals up the driving you did on public roads, read from a chip on your car. Then a bill comes and you pay it.

Nobody wants this to become a divorce court standby.... "just what were you doing at Miss Hilton's house in the middle of the night" etc etc. There needs to be an expectation of privacy.

Look, I am just giving the case why this makes SOME sense.... personally I prefer another dollar of gas tax and perhaps $1.50 on diesel. They are the REAL road damagers, the heavy duty vehicles which are all diesel.

[Edited 2011-03-27 20:01:28]
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:28 am

I haven't heard a compelling reason to justify any of this crap. This is a redundant law.
The federal government takes in enough money from the people. The government needs to figure out how to properly spend the money they take in.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 54):
Congestion pricing. You absolutely cause a traffic problem which requires millions of dollars in road expansion to fix. Maybe people ought to pay for the resource they are using... road time is one way


It's called vehicle registration. Commercial / heavy duty vehicles already pay more in vehicle registration fees.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 54):
personally I prefer another dollar of gas tax and perhaps $1.50 on diesel. They are the REAL road damagers, the heavy duty vehicles which are all diesel.


I wouldn't consider a Volkswagen Golf TDI a heavy duty vehicle.


Of all US Senators I am shocked that Kent Conrad of North Dakota would sponsor such a tax. I'd expect this from a Senator that represents states with large urban areas such as New York or New Jersey but not North Dakota. I had respect for this man. Luckily he is retiring.
 
dragon6172
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:34 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 48):
This is about putting an (anonymous) GPS unit and identifier on your car, counting your miles or hours spent driving on public roads.

If this is the way they plan on implementing this tax then it will never work. No one will go for the government installing a GPS tracker in their vehicle, I do not care how anonymous you say it will be. Find a way to have the odometer read at vehicle registration or annual inspection/smog check.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 53):
This idea is absolute folly. It makes not sense , and it does not take into account time spent on private roads, parking decks., and offroad.

I am guessing that the majority of people do not spend most of their driving on private roads/offroad or circling in parking garages. If the average car is driven 10k-12k per year and the govt. decides $.01 per mile, that amounts to $100-120 per year. The same 10k-12k miles per year for an average vehicle that gets 20 mpg means you are buying 500-600 gallons of gas per year. The average gas tax is about 21.8 cents per gallon, which means people are paying $109-130 per year currently.

It is all a bunch of averages (or creative math) and guesses, but really the system of paying per mile means you probably will wind up paying about the same (if the gas tax is removed).

Personally I think both taxes should be in place. The milage tax could go towards road maintenance and the gas tax could go towards road construction and mass transit. The state of the countries infrastructure makes it clear that something has to be done.

This, by the way, in no way means I think the govt. should not be required to cut spending in areas to balance the budget. Just adding more taxes is not going to solve our problems.
 
windy95
Posts: 2799
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:48 pm

Quoting dragon6172 (Reply 56):
The milage tax could go towards road maintenance and the gas tax could go towards road construction and mass transit

Nothing should go to mass transit. It should survive on it's own.
 
Ken777
Posts: 10197
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:50 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 51):
Or you could eliminate it at the federal level, and let the states choose what level of medicaid they want to provide and how they want to fund it.

But that would not eliminate duplication of efforts - 50 administrative organizations costs more than one. Especially when the core software (from Medicare) is already in place. State rights in a lot of cases significant;y increases the costs of redundancy.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 52):
No it doesn't - not if implemented correctly.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 54):
Congestion pricing. You absolutely cause a traffic problem which requires millions of dollars in road expansion to fix. Maybe people ought to pay for the resource they are using... road time is one way

You are assuming that all congestion is related to too many cars on the road. Most of what I see these days is either related to accidents or road work.

We need to get back to the reality that the road resources we have in place are to provide the infrastructure for normal life and commerce. They allow us to take kids to school and get us to work. They provide a huge percentage of the structure needed to deliver goods that companies and individuals buy. Our road system (like our rail and air traffic systems) support the economy. If there is growth in the economy that requires additional transit resources then this should be considered a positive situation. Beats the hell out of going backwards.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8613
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:07 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 58):
But that would not eliminate duplication of efforts - 50 administrative organizations costs more than one. Especially when the core software (from Medicare) is already in place. State rights in a lot of cases significant;y increases the costs of redundancy.

Organizations don't scale up all that well. They get too large, too complex, too bureaucratic, too slow, too out of touch. . . too difficult to control. I know many people who detest working for large companies.

Not to mention, it's better to have redundancy in case one fails at its purpose, and multiple organizations/competition means a better chance of trying different things that result in innovation.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:39 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 57):
Nothing should go to mass transit. It should survive on it's own.

Despite all the benefits it brings to a city, mostly in the form of increased land values (i.e. higher tax revenue)? Some very shortsighted thinking there.

-Mir
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Topic Author
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:28 am

Quoting dragon6172 (Reply 56):
It is all a bunch of averages (or creative math) and guesses, but really the system of paying per mile means you probably will wind up paying about the same (if the gas tax is removed).

That's assuming the tax is only one cent per mile. I doubt it will be that low. And as I've already posted, according to the link, this tax would be added on top of the current taxes on gas. Even if this proposal "raises" more revenue for the roads, at what cost will it be to the economy from the prices for EVERYTHING going up substantially?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 55):
Of all US Senators I am shocked that Kent Conrad of North Dakota would sponsor such a tax. I'd expect this from a Senator that represents states with large urban areas such as New York or New Jersey but not North Dakota. I had respect for this man. Luckily he is retiring.

   And hopefully he fails to get this through. The one reason I can see someone in North Dakota supporting this though is their roads probably take a pretty harsh beating in winter time. Michigan's roads are in awful shape after this past winter (much, much worse than they were before winter, which was already pretty bad).

Quoting Flighty (Reply 54):
Congestion pricing. You absolutely cause a traffic problem which requires millions of dollars in road expansion to fix. Maybe people ought to pay for the resource they are using... road time is one way

And what about when that traffic jam is caused by an accident? Why should I all of the sudden have to pay more in taxes because someone else got in a wreck? I'm not And on top of that, this tax will be counter productive. If I drive faster, my tax rate will go down, despite doing more damage to the road from driving faster. Don't respond with "Well it could factor in time of day" because unless it also factors in location, there are many places where it doesn't matter what time of day you drive - it's either always crowded (such as trying to cross the GWB in New York City) or always empty (most open stretches of highway between major cities). But to make my case, let's factor in a realistic example If I drive from where I live to visit my girlfriend (approx 230 miles), and I average 65 mph on the way there, it takes me 3.5 hours to get there. If I average 75 mph, it takes 3 hours. That's a 15% difference. Also, you'll probably see people running red-lights or driving faster than they should in less than ideal conditions to lower their tax rate. They'll say "Why wait at that red-light for 2 to 3 minutes? There's no cop around, so let's save myself some money" and "Why should I slow down to a safer speed even though the rain is pouring down so hard it's difficult to make out the taillights of the car in front of me? That's just costing me more money." Also, what about things like warming up the car? I don't know where you live, but I live up north, and winters are cold. I often turn my car on for 5 to 10 minutes or so while I'm finishing getting ready in the morning so it's warm by the time I get in it to go to work. Why should the government tax me for "damages to the road" when the vehicle is sitting in the garage?
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:32 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 58):
But that would not eliminate duplication of efforts

You see duplication, I see competition. States would have incentive to contain costs while still providing a reasonable level of service, lest tax payers vote with their feet. If you are going to have government administered healthcare ( a concept I am not sold on) you have to find some way to incentivize efficiency and performance. It would also give states the option to not have such a system. People end up with more choices that way.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:12 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 61):
And hopefully he fails to get this through.


It certainly isn't going to pass the House.
I don't want this bill anywhere near Obama because he would sign this sort of crap legislation.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 61):
The one reason I can see someone in North Dakota supporting this though is their roads probably take a pretty harsh beating in winter time.


North Dakota along with Wyoming are the only two states with a budget surplus. The state has responsible leadership and doesn't need to punish the people they represent.
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22270
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:24 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):

What are the chances of this getting past the House?

0.00000%

If Jesus himself returned, addressed the House, and told them to pass it, I doubt they would.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 57):

Nothing should go to mass transit. It should survive on it's own.

Do you have any idea what NYC or London would be like without mass transit? I do, because I was in NYC during the transit strike and it was FUUUUGLY.

The day the roads turn a profit is the day that mass transit should be held to the same standard.
 
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Dreadnought
Posts: 10201
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:32 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 62):
You see duplication, I see competition. States would have incentive to contain costs while still providing a reasonable level of service, lest tax payers vote with their feet. If you are going to have government administered healthcare ( a concept I am not sold on) you have to find some way to incentivize efficiency and performance. It would also give states the option to not have such a system. People end up with more choices that way.

Exactly. I have no problem with states like Massachusetts or California putting in place comprehensive health care if they choose to do so, or pink elephants on every street corner. If they do something good and do it efficiently, they will attract business and wealth from other states who then have an incentive to do something similar. There is no such incentive at the federal level - it's just empire-building (for those of you who study organizations and bureaucracy).
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:38 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 64):
0.00000%


Good!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 64):
If Jesus himself returned, addressed the House, and told them to pass it, I doubt they would.


Jesus Christ was a very passive individual and wouldn't support a heavy-handed draconian measure such as this. His killers would.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 65):
I have no problem with states like Massachusetts or California putting in place comprehensive health care


Republican Mitt Romney did just that as governor of Massachusetts.
Something I hope all registered Republicans remember when headed to the polls next spring to pick their Presidential nominee.
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 15887
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:46 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
GE was PAID over $3Bn by the IRS this year in spite of having paid no taxes. They basically do creative accounting and this pay no taxes at all.
http://www.gereports.com/setting-the-record-straight-ge-and-taxes/
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:47 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 66):
Jesus Christ was a very passive individual and wouldn't support a heavy-handed draconian measure such as this. His killers would.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?   

-Mir
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:04 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 68):
What the hell is that supposed to mean?


Draconian laws can lead to violent and irrational behavior by those who enforce such laws against those who descent and/or disagree.
Would that happen with this proposed track & tax system?
Who knows?
I don't even want to think about how far the government will go knowing where people are every second they move.
I'm simply responding to the Jesus analogy.
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22270
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:36 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
I'm simply responding to the Jesus analogy.

Um... when I made the analogy I was making a joke. Even if Jesus ordered congress to vote yes on this law, I doubt they would.

i.e. that's how unlikely I think it is that this will go anywhere. If he actually submitted the bill, it won't make it out of committee.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:56 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 70):
Um... when I made the analogy I was making a joke. Even if Jesus ordered congress to vote yes on this law, I doubt they would.

i.e. that's how unlikely I think it is that this will go anywhere. If he actually submitted the bill, it won't make it out of committee.

Oh I know. I'm glad that there is still an ounce of sanity in Congress that won't allow this to get on President Obama's desk.
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22270
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:08 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 71):
I'm glad that there is still an ounce of sanity in Congress that won't allow this to get on President Obama's desk.

Even if, because everyone was too busy laughing, it did manage to accidentally make it to his desk, I doubt very much he'd sign it.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:26 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 72):
Even if, because everyone was too busy laughing,

Many members of Congress pass bills they don't read.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 72):
I doubt very much he'd sign it.

Oh yes he would!
 
Ken777
Posts: 10197
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:16 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 59):
Organizations don't scale up all that well. They get too large, too complex, too bureaucratic, too slow, too out of touch. . . too difficult to control.

Medicare systems are already in place and operational. My bet is that Medicare delivers health care coverage at a far lower administrative cost than private insurance companies do. And it is the admin costs that are reduced if you get rid of 50 state level program administrative staffs.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 59):
Not to mention, it's better to have redundancy in case one fails at its purpose

So if the IT system in Texas fails they can get California to pick up the processing? Nope.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 62):
You see duplication, I see competition.

Paying for 50 different programs when one could do the job isn't competition - it's stupidity. States have other, more attractive, options for bringing in new industries than the health care of the less fortunate in the state. Competition in the political medical arena is basically reductions in health care.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 65):
There is no such incentive at the federal level - it's just empire-building (for those of you who study organizations and bureaucracy).

So you favor paying extra for 50 little empires? As I said, we have IT systems in place now that can be used as the basis for processing at a national level - and doing the job far cheaper than the current distributed administration structures.

I guess the question should be, how much additional taxes are you ready to pay to maintain the current inefficient system of administrating Medicaid? And, as the costs continue to increase, at what point will you say "enough"?
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8613
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Democrats - Tax You By The Mile

Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:56 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 74):
Medicare systems are already in place and operational. My bet is that Medicare delivers health care coverage at a far lower administrative cost than private insurance companies do. And it is the admin costs that are reduced if you get rid of 50 state level program administrative staffs.

Doubtful.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 74):

So if the IT system in Texas fails they can get California to pick up the processing? Nope.

I'm not talking IT. If a state implements a certain model for whatever they are trying to accomplish, and it fails, it doesn't affect the other 49 states. If you have different models across states, you can compare them and see which ones work better. With a single federal monopoly you don't get this.

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