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DocLightning
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AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:01 am

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...s_have_no_first_amendment_righ.php

Quote:
Bryan Fischer, the "Director of Issues Analysis" for the social conservative group the American Family Association, says that when it comes to Islam, the First Amendment is a privilege, not a right. "Islam has no fundamental First Amendment claims, for the simple reason that it was not written to protect the religion of Islam," Fischer wrote today.

See, first you advocate throwing homosexuals in "re-education" camps and now this. Then you have the nerve to act surprised when the SPLC calls you a "hate group."  
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DeltaMD90
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:50 am

Wow. Um. Well at least they're honest. And we can get where they are trying to come from. The devil we know instead of the devil we don't know (ironic choice of words.) As much as I hate them saying things like this and me being Christian, just like them, hopefully the public will see what a lot of them are up to and push them out of government and keep them at church and in the community where they belong, focusing on real issues like poverty around the world rather than keeping openly gay/sexually active LGBT people from marrying (like that last step makes a huge difference on them anyways.) Sigh. Let's hope the bulk of Christians can actually follow what Christ really taught...
 
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OA412
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:19 am

What a dolt! Someone should give this guy a civics lesson, and explain to him that the US Constitution applies to all, not just to Christians. Perhaps he forget that the Preamble reads "We the people of the United States", not "We the Christians of the United States".

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Wow. Um. Well at least they're honest.

Yeah that's about the only good thing I can say about them. At least they're honest about their bigotry.
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Superfly
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:25 am

Sorry Doc but the thread title is a bit mis-leading.
I didn't see anything where the AFA stated that the First Amendment didn't apply to Bhuddist and Hindus.
He is only singling out a religious/political group that has a set of beliefs that are contrary to our Constitution.

[Edited 2011-03-31 00:36:13]
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:58 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):

He is only singling out a religious/political group that has a set of beliefs that are contrary to our Constitution.

And some brands of Christianity are not?
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Superfly
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:13 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 4):
And some brands of Christianity are not?


"Some brands" may have some wacky beliefs but all brands of Christians follow the Bible. Yes there are different variations.
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MKEdude
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:19 am

Ah America, the land of freedom*

*Offer not valid for Muslims, gays, lesbians, Mexicans, women, atheists, union members, east coast residents, west coast residents or any other group we can deem "unamerican" for political expediency.
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
 
kiwiandrew

RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:23 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
He is only singling out a religious/political group that has a set of beliefs that are contrary to our Constitution.

I agree that there are some individual Muslims who hold beliefs that are contrary to your Constitution , in the same way that some individual Christians/Buddhists/Jews/Hindus/(insert name of religion here ) may also hold beliefs contrary to your Constitution , can you please advise specifically how you see Muslims as a whole to be holding beliefs contrary to your Constitution , you didn't really make that clear in your post ?
 
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:28 am

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 6):
*Offer not valid for Muslims, gays, lesbians, Mexicans, women, atheists, union members, east coast residents, west coast residents or any other group we can deem "unamerican" for political expediency.


Care to point out any current laws that exclude those groups from the Constitution?
Last time I checked, the AFA has zero authority. They're just a bunch of nutty right-wing Christians that make headlines from time to time.
Our Constitution gives groups like the AFA the right to speak out and make fools of themselves. Unless they're sending in suicide bombers in to discos, subways and airlines, I wouldn't pay these fools any attention.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 7):
can you please advise specifically how you see Muslims as a whole to be holding beliefs contrary to your Constitution , you didn't really make that clear in your post ?


What the AFA is saying is that the Koran and Sharia law and the Constitution can't co-exist. The AFA isn't the only group that holds this belief.
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kiwiandrew

RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:32 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
What the AFA is saying is that the Koran and Sharia law and the Constitution can't co-exist. The AFA isn't the only group that holds this belief.

OK , so specifically, what in the Koran is in conflict with your Constitution ? Your statement is very vague ... there must be something that you see as incompatible , would you mind sharing what it is ?
 
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:17 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Care to point out any current laws that exclude those groups from the Constitution?

He was pointing out the way some people would like the USA to function.
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DocLightning
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:06 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):

"Some brands" may have some wacky beliefs but all brands of Christians follow the Bible.

Really? Coulda' fooled me. Phelps (who is most certainly a Christian) doesn't seem to follow the Bible.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):


What the AFA is saying is that the Koran and Sharia law and the Constitution can't co-exist.

No, they are not saying that. They are saying that the 1st Amendment only protects Christianity and a few other religions as a courtesy. Or did you read the article?
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:22 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):

I didn't see anything where the AFA stated that the First Amendment didn't apply to Bhuddist and Hindus.

Really? First Fischer says: "The First Amendment was written by the Founders to protect the free exercise of Christianity." and then follows it with: "While there certainly ought to be a presumption of religious liberty for non-Christian religious traditions in America, the Founders were not writing a suicide pact when they wrote the First Amendment."

That looks to me like he's saying it wouldn't apply to Buddhists/Hindus/Jews/Muslims/Zoroastrians/Atheists/Agnostics/Shintos/Bahai's/Sikhs/Jainists etc. based on their non-Christian status.
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:10 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 7):
I agree that there are some individual Muslims who hold beliefs that are contrary to your Constitution , in the same way that some individual Christians/Buddhists/Jews/Hindus/(insert name of religion here ) may also hold beliefs contrary to your Constitution

I disagree. Christian belief, and all other major religions that I know of, believe in the seperation of religion and secular government (as Christ said, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”). Islamic belief has no such instruction - quite the opposite, under even a liberal interpretation of Islam, Religion and the State is one and the same, and in fact a non-Islamic government (i.e. that does not enforce Sharia) is de-facto illegitimate.

That is a big, big, BIG difference that differentiates Islam from all the other religions.
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kiwiandrew

RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:52 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
I disagree. Christian belief, and all other major religions that I know of, believe in the seperation of religion and secular government (as Christ said, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”). Islamic belief has no such instruction - quite the opposite, under even a liberal interpretation of Islam, Religion and the State is one and the same, and in fact a non-Islamic government (i.e. that does not enforce Sharia) is de-facto illegitimate.



Thanks for that Dreadnought , at least you are being specific about why you believe this , unlike another poster who gave vague answers and when asked to be specific suddenly went quiet.

On the other hand , I am not entirely sure I agree with you , I know many Muslims who are quite happy with ( and indeed prefer ) separation of religion and state and who are opposed to the concept of Sharia law , and likewise I have met some hardcore Christians ( and Jews ) who believe that the rules of the Bible/Torah should always take precedence over secular laws , so it seems to me that it is not something which is necessarily intrinsic to the religions themselves but rather something which applies to a subset of adherents to those religions .
 
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:53 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
Christian belief, and all other major religions that I know of, believe in the seperation of religion and secular government

This is not born out by the behavior of the Christian Right in this country, a movement that you support, whether you like it or not, buy your support of American rightist politicians.

The banning of gay marriage, attempts to re-criminalize sodomy, attempts to legalize murder of abortion providers, attempts to ban abortion and birth control, attempts to ban all pornography, attempts to ban the teaching of evolution, attempts to force Christian prayer in school all prove that it is actually a major political goal of a significant portion of Christians in this country to instate a de-facto state religion.

Since I have read the Q'uran from cover to cover, I can say that at no point does it say that Islam should be the state religion. That is the belief of the majority of Muslims, yes, but I will point out that many of those who have chosen to leave have seen the inherent hypocrisy of theocratic governments.
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Superfly
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:07 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 14):
unlike another poster who gave vague answers and when asked to be specific suddenly went quiet.

Or was away from the computer.

Thanks Dreadnought. Took the words out of my mouth.
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Ken777
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:14 pm

Unfortunately there are extremists at both end of the political spectrum and the religious hard right is one of those unfortunate groups.

Fortunately there is a moderate middle that understands that good people come in a lot of flavors - religious, national origin, private preferences, etc. Just like there are some pretty bad people in all flavors - like that christian, patriotic, hard right white guy named Tim McVey.

I do have to admit, however, that the extreme Christian Right does scare me a bit.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:19 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
Or was away from the computer.

Ok , fair call , so now that you are back can you please specifically state exactly where the conflict is between the Koran and the Constitution ... I notice that when Dreadnought advanced his belief he did not provide any reference from the Koran to back up his statement ...under even a liberal interpretation of Islam, Religion and the State is one and the same, and in fact a non-Islamic government (i.e. that does not enforce Sharia) is de-facto illegitimate ... since you said that he took the words right out of your mouth I am guessing that you agree with his statement , so would either you or Dreadnought please provide some back up for that statement ... unless of course it is just a statement reflecting your own personal beliefs about Islam rather than something which you can verify from source . Certainly the Doc seems to have failed to find backing in the Koran for the statement .

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Since I have read the Q'uran from cover to cover, I can say that at no point does it say that Islam should be the state religion
 
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:44 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 18):
so now that you are back can you please specifically state exactly where the conflict is between the Koran and the Constitution ... I notice that when Dreadnought advanced his belief he did not provide any reference from the Koran to back up his statement ...under even a liberal interpretation of Islam, Religion and the State is one and the same, and in fact a non-Islamic government (i.e. that does not enforce Sharia) is de-facto illegitimate ... since you said that he took the words right out of your mouth I am guessing that you agree with his statement , so would either you or Dreadnought please provide some back up for that statement ... unless of course it is just a statement reflecting your own personal beliefs about Islam rather than something which you can verify from source . Certainly the Doc seems to have failed to find backing in the Koran for the statement .

Would love to go in to detail about this as you know I have strong feelings about this. I just don't have this memorized in my head. It's 12:40 AM here in Bangkok and I have a Thai Cougar scratching at my door. I'll be lucky if I get 5 hours of sleep tonight.
I'm such an infidel.   

Will elaborate more tomorrow.
Good night and please be respectful.  
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:50 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
Unfortunately there are extremists at both end of the political spectrum and the religious hard right is one of those unfortunate groups.

No, I disagree. I have not seen a vocal leftist group in this country that supports the sort of hard-line restrictions on personal and private activity like there is on the Right. I'm sick and tired of this BS about trying to be all reasonable and neutral by pretending that there's a Leftist equivalent to the Religious Right. There isn't.

Nobody on the Left is advocating locking entire classes of people in "re-education" camps or draconian restrictions in private behavior.

On the contrary, the Right has invented a straw-man religion called "Secular Humanism" and claims that any attempt to restrict the forced exercise of Christianity on the unwilling is really an attempt to force them to be "Secular Humanists."

I reject this "fair and balanced" notion that such Leftist extremism is nearly as widespread and vocal as the Religious Right is. It's simply not true.
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:58 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
but all brands of Christians follow the Bible

So does Islam.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
Christian belief, and all other major religions that I know of, believe in the seperation of religion and secular government

I have seen many, no thousands, of instances where "The Church" wants to inject itself into running government.
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:07 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
I have not seen a vocal leftist group in this country that supports the sort of hard-line restrictions on personal and private activity

Gun control groups!   

But back on topic, and I know it's just me, but I only read about these groups or see them on the internet. Most Christians I know and meet are becoming more and more open to things like homosexuality or peaceful Muslims
 
PSA53
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:49 am

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 6):
Ah America, the land of freedom*

*Offer not valid for Muslims, gays, lesbians, Mexicans, women, atheists, union members, east coast residents, west coast residents or any other group we can deem "unamerican" for political expediency.



Damn! I hate the fine print(lol)

On a serious side,hypothetically,maybe all of us of European descent should go back home and see how well you're able to execute the Constitution of US and laws, weight in all races, ideological ,religious and morality factors in order for the citizenship to observe you're changes.

Did we,as Europeans, get everything right.No,of course not.Very serious and sometimes criminal history happenned.But the paperwork was right and in place all the time.We just didn't executed right.

But now,it's you're turn.Let's see how well you can do to keep a perfect union.Good luck.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:06 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):

This is not born out by the behavior of the Christian Right in this country, a movement that you support, whether you like it or not, buy your support of American rightist politicians.

The banning of gay marriage, attempts to re-criminalize sodomy, attempts to legalize murder of abortion providers, attempts to ban abortion and birth control, attempts to ban all pornography, attempts to ban the teaching of evolution, attempts to force Christian prayer in school all prove that it is actually a major political goal of a significant portion of Christians in this country to instate a de-facto state religion.

Since I have read the Q'uran from cover to cover, I can say that at no point does it say that Islam should be the state religion. That is the belief of the majority of Muslims, yes, but I will point out that many of those who have chosen to leave have seen the inherent hypocrisy of theocratic governments.

Absolutely, just what I was thinking. I was reading what Dreadnought was saying about separation of church and state and choking. Someone needs to wake up and smell the roses about the folks you are an absolute professional at being oblivious to.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
Christian belief, and all other major religions that I know of, believe in the seperation of religion and secular government

Hah! And you live in the United States? Why do the 'biggest' Christians disagree fervently?

[Edited 2011-03-31 18:07:20]
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Dreadnought
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:12 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 24):
Absolutely, just what I was thinking. I was reading what Dreadnought was saying about separation of church and state and choking. Someone needs to wake up and smell the roses about the folks you are an absolute professional at being oblivious to.

Tell me where in Christian scripture does it say or even imply that religious law and secular law must be one and the same.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 24):
Hah! And you live in the United States? Why do the 'biggest' Christians disagree fervently?

You have a-holes everywhere. But the religion itself, as described in its scripture, recognizes the segregation. Islam does not.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:19 am

I could care less about your interpretation of the Bible. Everyone has a different interpretation, it seems.

It's useless to have a discussion about religious theory. What matters is- right here, right now, in practice- the vast majority of evangelical Christians think any separation of church and state is a load of hooey.
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:32 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):

But back on topic, and I know it's just me, but I only read about these groups or see them on the internet.

Did you notice that DADT thing that just got repealed?

Did you notice that friggin' TURKEY repealed their version long before we did? Do you know why that is?

I'll give you one guess...
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mham001
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:53 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
No, I disagree. I have not seen a vocal leftist group in this country that supports the sort of hard-line restrictions on personal and private activity like there is on the Right.

Nobody on the Left is advocating locking entire classes of people in "re-education" camps or draconian restrictions in private behavior.

What is that, a joke? You have to be kidding, right?

I'm not going to make excuses for the hard-core far right Christian element, but most of the laws restricting our movement come from the left. Can't let the kids eat at McDonalds, can't use recyclable bags for groceries, the DMV is now Big Brother redux, can't do this, can't do that....that's just off the top of my head but there's plenty more living in the Peoples Repulik of Kali. And we know they're all leftist laws because that's the only government we have here.
Yes, leftist groups are routinely trying to restrict private behavior they don't like.
 
sna752
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:57 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
Christian belief, and all other major religions that I know of, believe in the seperation of religion and secular government (as Christ said, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”).

Wait...are you kidding me? There's a figure in the Roman Catholic Church, called the Pope, and he used to run the show in Medieval Europe. Recall, Pope Paul III used his powers to give the boot to Henry VIII. Recall too, that the church also owned roughly 1/3 of ALL of the land in Europe, controlled the sciences, knowledge, agriculture, trade, and had monopoly power on the economy.

That doesn't sound like there's any kind of separation to me...

Present day, the Pope is the absolute monarch of Vatican City (a country). Again, no separation. They use the Bible.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
But the religion itself, as described in its scripture, recognizes the segregation

By that logic, it sounds to me like they didn't recognize the scripture for about two thousand years!!

Why not just understand that some people believe other things, and rather than try to take away their rights, accept them. If they want to hurt you, that's a different matter, but insofar as I can tell, most people and most religions around the world are relatively peaceful.
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:08 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 28):
Can't let the kids eat at McDonalds, can't use recyclable bags for groceries,

Lies. I'm not sugar coating it. You told something that isn't true and that is easily verifiable as untrue. So that makes it a lie. Not a "distortion," or a "misrepresentation," but an outright lie. I hate euphemisms for lying, so I don't use them.

Lie 1: "Kids can't eat at McDonald's"

Truth: There is no law anywhere in this country against eating at McDonald's. There is a law in San Francisco prohibiting restaurants such as McDonald's from providing toys in the Happy Meal. The law does not restrict personal behavior. It restricts corporate behavior. Businesses are not citizens and do not have the rights of citizens. I also disagree with the law, but it does not restrict personal liberty in any way, shape or form.

Lie 2: "Can't use (I think you meant non-recyclable) bags for groceries."

Truth: The law does not restrict citizens from using any sort of bag they like. It is a civil ordinance in some cities (like SF) that restricts the behavior of BUSINESSES. The law was passed for a number of very good reasons and in no way restricts PERSONAL liberty or movement. Again, you do not have a fundamental right to a plastic bag at the grocery store.

So, without telling lies this time, do you want to give me a REAL example of leftist attacks on individual liberties? I'll grant DeltaMD90 the 2nd Amendment attacks.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:42 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Did you notice that DADT thing that just got repealed?

Yeah, but that policy was from the past generations. I meant that more and more people are being open and less are acting like what you said in the first post. Idk I think we're talking about 2 different things
 
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:34 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 26):
It's useless to have a discussion about religious theory. What matters is- right here, right now, in practice- the vast majority of evangelical Christians think any separation of church and state is a load of hooey.

Evidence? Polls? Something?

Quoting sna752 (Reply 29):
Wait...are you kidding me? There's a figure in the Roman Catholic Church, called the Pope, and he used to run the show in Medieval Europe
Quoting sna752 (Reply 29):
By that logic, it sounds to me like they didn't recognize the scripture for about two thousand years!!

You are right - they didn't. But that was about Power, not adherence to biblical teaching. Popes and priests are human beings, therefore imperfect, and those in positions of authority are tempted to use that power for their own purposes.

You guys still have not answered the main thrust of my position - that Islam is the only religion whose scriptures specifically calls for religious governance of the world, and for opposition to any sort of secular government. In the case of Christianity, where you can hope that they eventually grow out of that sort of fanaticism (and they largely have), it is much more difficult for Islam to "grow out of it", because it means that large swaths of the Hadiths and the Quran would need to be ignored - and since the Quran is considered to be literally the Word of Allah, and therefore perfect and not subject to any sort of criticism, that is difficult.
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cws818
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:39 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
What the AFA is saying is that the Koran and Sharia law and the Constitution can't co-exist. The AFA isn't the only group that holds this belief.

Well, then they are wrong. The Koran is older than the Constitution. Thus, the Koran and the Constitution have co-existed since the Constitution was ratified.
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kiwiandrew

RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:03 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32):
You guys still have not answered the main thrust of my position - that Islam is the only religion whose scriptures specifically calls for religious governance of the world, and for opposition to any sort of secular government

and you still haven't answered my question , where , specifically , in their scriptures does it call for religious governance of the world ? I have tried to find it and can't , since you know where it is perhaps you could direct me to the relevant passages ?
 
sna752
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:58 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32):
But that was about Power, not adherence to biblical teaching. Popes and priests are human beings, therefore imperfect, and those in positions of authority are tempted to use that power for their own purposes.

So let me get this straight: it's a convenience thing? You claim that Islam is the only religion that actively promotes religious governance in literature. I point out that the Roman Catholic Church did/does the same thing and then you say it's because the leaders are human. Seriously?   

Explain also, please, how the Pope runs Vatican City (as a country). Are you saying he is in the category like Kim Jong Il/Chavez/etc that abuse their power to keep their positions?
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Mir
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:00 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
Tell me where in Christian scripture does it say or even imply that religious law and secular law must be one and the same.

That's an interesting question, because there isn't really such a passage. Yet there are still plenty of people who would love to legally impose their particular brand of Christian morals on the rest of the country. Or are you saying that it is the scripture of a particular religion that matters more than the conduct of some of its followers?

-Mir
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Braybuddy
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:31 am

From the article:

"Fischer, also known for his frequent anti-gay, anti-bear rhetoric . . "

Hmmm . . . this guy knows a little TOO much about homosexuality . . . ..            
 
kiwiandrew

RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:36 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 37):
From the article:

"Fischer, also known for his frequent anti-gay, anti-bear rhetoric . . "

Hmmm . . . this guy knows a little TOO much about homosexuality . . . ..

Priceless , I can't believe I missed that line 
 
aloges
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:03 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32):
Popes (...) are human beings, therefore imperfect

The Pope is by definition infallible.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:20 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32):

Evidence? Polls? Something?

Um... it's been provided repeatedly.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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n229nw
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:46 am

It's funny watching certain posters contort acrobatically into all kinds of twisted anti-logical positions in order to feed and spew their blind, seething Islamophobia...

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
He is only singling out a religious/political group that has a set of beliefs that are contrary to our Constitution.

Where to even begin. The constitution was written both to allow the free practice of _ANY_ religion and to limit religions (not just the established religion(s) of the day). It allows people to practice their religion up until the point when it interferes with the rights of others. This limits the Bible, as it does the Koran, since the Bible prescribes all sorts of laws. For example, it advocates stoning people to death for crimes such as working on the sabbath (and for rebellious children, and for lots of other things). This is a prescription of law...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
Christian belief, and all other major religions that I know of, believe in the seperation of religion and secular government

     

Only because of government reforms in certain countries that have limited the power of the bible. See above. And:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
I have read the Q'uran from cover to cover, I can say that at no point does it say that Islam should be the state religion


Here is a radical idea: instead of singling out whole religions to bash, how about we simply APPLY THE CONSTITUTION! Then, people are free to practice their religions, but limited when that practice interferes with the rights guaranteed to all in that document. Worked so far, I bet it will keep working!

And instead of bashing all Muslims, how about debating with the applications of and interpretations of Islam that you don't like, as you would do with applications and interpretations of Christianity that you don't like. There is plenty of debate withing Islam about nearly every issue, including separation of religion and state (you can find lively debates on that subject not only in Turkey, but in other countries as well).

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 37):
"Fischer, also known for his frequent anti-gay, anti-bear rhetoric . . "


Awesome, thanks for lightening up this thread.   
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
aloges
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:55 am

Quoting n229nw (Reply 41):
Only because of government reforms in certain countries that have limited the power of the bible. See above.

What exactly do you mean, "Age of Enlightenment"?  
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Lufthansa411
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:58 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32):
You guys still have not answered the main thrust of my position - that Islam is the only religion whose scriptures specifically calls for religious governance of the world, and for opposition to any sort of secular government. In the case of Christianity, where you can hope that they eventually grow out of that sort of fanaticism (and they largely have), it is much more difficult for Islam to "grow out of it", because it means that large swaths of the Hadiths and the Quran would need to be ignored - and since the Quran is considered to be literally the Word of Allah, and therefore perfect and not subject to any sort of criticism, that is difficult.

Christianity (and Judaism) both establish a series of laws and codes that are prescribed in both the new and old testament. The difference is that over time and influenced by the enlightenment and open society, many people have come to question parts of the law as unnecessary.

All three religions grey the area between religion and government with rules and codes that must be followed. The Qu'ran does not lay out how people should be governed any more than Judaism or Christianity do. Nowhere does it specify what system of government to have or how many houses as part of the legislature. Rather, it talks about specific violations that occur and what should be done to stop them or punish them, the same way Christianity and Judaism do. Steal a loaf of bread? XYZ happens. The only difference is that for the most part Christians have moved on or ignored parts of those laws as societies have evolved out of them.

My prediction is that in the long term, Islam will do the same thing.



In case you needed a bit more evidence, a fitting clip from the West Wing: (the section in question begins at 1:50)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI&feature=related
Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
 
Quokka
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:05 am

The beauty of religious argument is that you can pick almost any quote at random from any of the major scriptures and use them to prove almost any point of view. Sometimes the scriptures do not support the claims that some would like to make for the simple reason that they are silent on the matter.

Neither the Bible, nor the Qu'ran specifies any form of State or Governmental organisation. Both do require adherence to God's/ Allah's laws, the main one being, there is no God other than me, don't worship idols, respect your parents, don't tell lies, don't steal, pay your taxes and generally do the right thing. There are references to "I have created kingdoms and knocked them down" and to "wise rulers", so it would seem that God/ Allah is not opposed to human governments per se, but simply insists on their rulers acting in accordance with the scriptures.

Historically, major religions have shown that they can co-exist with various forms of States, ranging from autocracies, through military dictatorships to parliamentary democracies. My own view is that religion should be a personal and voluntary choice and that the State (in the words of the Australian Constitution) "shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust."
 
Superfly
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:15 pm

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 21):
So does Islam.

...and that's the problem.

Quoting cws818 (Reply 33):
The Koran is older than the Constitution. Thus, the Koran and the Constitution have co-existed since the Constitution was ratified.

Muslims were conquering other parts of the world when the Constitution was written. They hadn't made their way to the Americas yet.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 41):
It's funny watching certain posters contort acrobatically into all kinds of twisted anti-logical positions in order to feed and spew their blind, seething Islamophobia...

It's funny watching certain posters contort acrobatically into all kinds of twisted anti-logical positions in order to feed their blind love for the very people that want to kill them.
It's ironic that the harshest critics of Islam know a great deal about Islam. Many have read the Quran and some are even former Muslims themselves. Of course it's easier to just close your eyes and call them names.  
Would you consider Nonie Darwish and ignorant, right-wing bigot? I suggest you all read her story. I know many people from the Middle-East that have much harsher comments about Islam than I do. They rejected Islam once they reach free soil - The United States.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 41):
The constitution was written both to allow the free practice of _ANY_ religion and to limit religions (not just the established religion(s) of the day). It allows people to practice their religion up until the point when it interferes with the rights of others.

..and there lies the problem.




Quoting n229nw (Reply 41):
For example, it advocates stoning people to death for crimes such as working on the sabbath (and for rebellious children, and for lots of other things).

....and what religion is doing that today? I don't see to any Christians carrying out honor killings today. Of course President Obama would have you believe that those that follow the Bible subscribe to this. So far, 100% of all honor killings in the United States has been carried out by Muslims. Why is that?



Noor Almaleki was a 20-year-old college student who had dreams of becoming a fashion model. Young Muslim Woman "Honor-Killed" by Her Father Because He Believed She'd Become Too Americanized

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 18):
can you please specifically state exactly where the conflict is between the Koran and the Constitution ...

Here are a few quotes for you to dissect.
Take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant”… [Surah 4:91].

“As to those who reject faith (Islam) I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help”… [Yusufali 003.056].


The motivation of the Islamic terrorists has been driven by interpretations of various versus within the Qur’an. Many describe them as suicide bombers as in the case of bombings in Israel and on 9/11/01. While there may be some truth that the bombings are being carried out for political reasons the real truth lies behind what these cowards are being taught by their clerics within the mosques they attend here in the United States. By interpreting various versus within the Qur’an these small minded individuals are being taught they commit these acts of murder against Infidels non-believers) and that will ensure them a place in paradise.

“Do not think that those who are killed in the cause of GOD are dead; they are alive at their Lord, enjoying His provisions… [Surah 3:169]

Al-Qaeda recruits children to help carry out their murderess deeds. Recently 4 under the age of 14 years were arrested, they called themselves “Birds of Paradise” referring to the Islamic belief that when children die they become birds in paradise.

Many Muslim/Islamic leaders have declared “Jihad” against the United States and our leaders.

“Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme”… [Surah 8:36].



25-year-old Sandeela Kanwal—allegedly by her father, Chaudhry Rashid—was an "American Honor Killing." Rashid is said to have strangled Kanwal to death with a bungee cord after she tried to end her arranged marriage.

That is nothing short of putting a price tag on the heads of every American, both home and abroad. When questioned they all quote the Qur’an as their or their organization’s justification for the violent acts against nonbelievers.

“If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches”… [Surah 3:156-].

The terrorists cry out “Allahu Akbar” (God is great) and then in the name of God shoot and blow up unarmed innocent men, women and children. Islamic terrorists quote the Qur’an to justify every murder and genocide they commit. It is all done in the name of “Jihad”. In other words you are either a believer or follower of Islam or you are an infidel and need to be killed (eliminated). It is interesting to note that our very own President Obama denies any connection with using Allahu Akbar and terrorism.

The Qur’an dictates there is only one God and that is the God of Islam.

“The only true faith in God’s sight is Islam”… [Surah 2:14, 15].




Amina and Sarah Said were the children of Egyptian Yaser Abdul Said and American Patricia Tissie Owens Said. Both girls were born in Texas. Amina was born on March 2, 1989 and Sarah March 16, 1990. The girls were found shot to death in a taxi at the Omni Mandalay Hotel, in Irving, Texas, January 1, 2008. Both girls had left their home in Lewisville, Texas earlier that evening, with their father Yaser Said. At 7:33 pm CT a call came in to the Irving Police Department’s 911 call center. The call was from Sarah Said. She had been shot 9 times and told the operator “My Dad shot me and my sister, I’m dying!” Their mother, Patricia Said, claims both girls were killed for having boyfriends. Death threats had been made by Yaser against the girls. They ran away and were safe, but their mother brought them back. Yaser Said is still at large and at present time there is a $10,000 reward for his capture. Said has been featured on America's Most Wanted

The Qur’an, in many ways, can be compared to Adolph Hitler’s “Mein Kampf”, as they both layout a blueprint for political control, race discrimination and ethnic cleansing. Many non-believers, world leaders and commentators have spoken out against the Qur’an and the Islamic terrorists use for justifying terrorist acts and at great pearl, even death, to themselves and families.
Even liberal commentator Bill Maher whom I'm still a fan of described the Qur’an as a “hate-filled holy book that inspired terrorism”. In a recent campaign appearance, Florida Republican Congressman, Allen West (ret. Lt Col USA) was confronted by Council on Islamic-American Relations (C.A.I.R.) because of his remarks about the Qur’an and Islamic terrorists.
C.A.I.R. has been cited as being a front organization for Hamas. A case was filed against C.A.I.R, and a number of other Islamic organizations in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Texas, Dallas Division.

The Qur’an speaks of Mohammad, “Muhammad is God’s apostle”. “Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbeliever but merciful to one another”… [Surah 49:1]

He (Mohammad) preaches “death to the infidel and non-believer”. Mohammad is truly a man to be followed and admired…
In a book written by Les Kinsolving it is said Muhammad was not a prophet and that he was a pedophile pirate. His fourth wife, Aiyisha, was only 9 years old. In the Qur’an it says

“Muhammad would take a bath with the little girl and fondle her.” Bukhari [6:298]

At this time she was only 6 years old. It is to be expected that main line Islamic Muslims deny this. Child marriages are still legal in Saudi Arabia and Oman.

Terrorism in the name of Islam is being preached in Mosques all over the world and here in the United States. It is estimated there are between 6.5 and 10 million Muslims in the United States. Just consider if you will, if only 10% are following radical Islam that is an army of 650,000 to 1 million radical Islamic terrorists within the boarders of our country just awaiting the order to attack in the name of Allah.

“Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle with the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil”… [Surah 4:76]

BTW… The definition of the word “Islam” is PEACE or submision to one God. Makes me wonder… Was it a peaceful act when Islamic terrorists blew up the plane over Lockerbie, Scotland killing several hundred or 19 Islamic terrorists crashed 4 planes killing thousands of innocent people on 9/11? Was it in the name of peace when Islamic terrorists blew up the Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon killing hundreds or when Islamic Terrorists attacked the U.S.S. Cole and killed a large number of our solders? All this was done in the name of “Islam”. Was it an act of peace when the Islamic terrorist shoe bomber and underwear bomber tried to blow up two planes or when an Islamic terrorist tried to blow up Times Square? I wonder if the people riding the train in Spain and the subways in England thought it was a peaceful act when Islamic terrorists blew them up, once again killing hundreds. Was it an act of peace when Islamic Terrorists sawed off the heads of reporters, stoned and hung women all in the name of Allah? You can draw your own conclusions about the religion of “peace”. For me the conclusion is as plain as the nose on my face providing some Islamic terrorist, coward, thug, murderer, hiding in a woman’s berka does not cut it off in the name of Allah!

It has become politically “incorrect” to speak out against Islam… If we can’t speak out without fear of physical or legal reprisal then our 1st amendment rights are being violated. Read and educate yourself. Don’t fall for the B.S. that is being crammed down our throats by the liberal media and those who would see is turn into a Muslin society governed by Sharia law.
The very fact that CBS News did a special concerning Sharia law in the United States lends credence to the long range plans of the radical Islamic extremist and the direction they want to take our country in.

Our Constitutional Republic is under attack from radical Islamic terrorists. They are using the Qur’an as their manifesto, and take their orders from Ayatollah’s, Emums and Clerics whose ultimate goal is to turn the United States of America into an Islamic nation and replace our Constitution with Islamic Sharia law. We, as citizens, must do whatever it takes to protect our Country from these threats, both from within and without. We need to protect and defend our Bill of Rights and Constitution from Islamic aggressors. We, as law abiding citizens, must be prepared for any actions taken against our government and citizens by foreign powers, either political or under the pretense of religion.
All of my information is coming directly from the Quran. Look it up and verify it.
The photos with captions are all true verifiable stories as well and all of you can verify this.


Bring back the Concorde
 
baroque
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:47 pm

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 23):
Quoting MKEdude (Reply 6):
Ah America, the land of freedom*

*Offer not valid for Muslims, gays, lesbians, Mexicans, women, atheists, union members, east coast residents, west coast residents or any other group we can deem "unamerican" for political expediency.



Damn! I hate the fine print(lol)

Priceless and even more priceless. But you seem to have missed out the liberals. Sometime we must get a definition of the word liberal from the USA.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
On the contrary, the Right has invented a straw-man religion called "Secular Humanism" and claims that any attempt to restrict the forced exercise of Christianity on the unwilling is really an attempt to force them to be "Secular Humanists."

You are in double trouble Doc, not being even a lapsed Christian and showing indications of S H!!!

Forced exercise of Christianity is what gave Popery a bad name in England and Scotland and a good few other places. Not even in OBLs dreams does he have quite as much control as the Catholic church has exercised.

Should not a.net hold an auto-da-fé each year just to get these arguments sorted out? And if that does not work, a ceremonial burning could follow. After all, those practices also follow the Bible, so we were told.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 44):
The beauty of religious argument is that you can pick almost any quote at random from any of the major scriptures and use them to prove almost any point of view. Sometimes the scriptures do not support the claims that some would like to make for the simple reason that they are silent on the matter.

Excellent summary of why it is really dumb to pick favourites between religions in this sort of thing.

We just need to sic the quokkas on the lot of them.

But the extent of Islamophobia from some is astonishing, why not get to meet a real average Muslim rather than read exaggerated descriptions of the aims of a restricted number of extremists while cheerfully ignoring the ravings of extremist Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and who knows what all else!!
 
Superfly
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RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:01 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 46):
But the extent of Islamophobia from some is astonishing, why not get to meet a real average Muslim rather than read exaggerated descriptions of the aims of a restricted number of extremists while cheerfully ignoring the ravings of extremist Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and who knows what all else!!

Who's doing that?
The critics in this thread have given sources, know many Muslims, been to Muslim countries, were former Muslims themselves and practiced it for a short time.
So far, the usual script of "ignorant" and "phobic" doesn't apply to any of the critics in this thread.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Quokka
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Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:26 pm

RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:09 pm

In an earlier post I stated that you can take any quote and twist it to mean whatever you want. However, one should never quote one document when the source is another. No where in the Qu'ran does it state that Muhammad fondled anybody, let alone a little girl. The source is not the Qu'ran but Bukhari.

In many places in the Qu'ran it does indeed talk of fighting and war. But it also states: "[2:256] There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way." and "[2:190] You may fight in the cause of God against those who attack you, but do not be the aggressor. God does not love the aggressors. " In numerous suras it states that if disbelievers wage war against the believers and they cease and make a treaty, then that treaty must be honoured. It is reiterated that war is correct so long as it is defensive and not aggressive. Moreover, it states that it is not up to you to judge others but the judgement is God's alone and He may forgive or punish as He sees fit.

Of course, just as with the Bible, there are those who use it for their own purposes. They take the bits that are of use to them and reject those that are not. This occurs with many religions. People may cite God, but they advance their own desires. This behaviour started immediately after texts were written or "collected".

I could just as readily compose a condemnation of the Bible. After all, does not Jesus say, "I come bearing a sword"? Let me guess: the sword was to cut roses or wheat, not wage a holy war. Did Jesus not chase the money lenders out of the temple, more effectively than protesters at G7 meetings? How did he do that? By peaceful persuasion? I doubt it. Even before JC comes on the scene, in numerous passages in the Bible, it is reported that God invoked one group of people to take up arms against another. And this a God, we are told, who loves mankind and desires peace.

Today many countries have separated church and state but many have not, even in the west. Now we still kill people for pretty much the same base reasons, but we pretend to be civilised because we no longer quote sacred texts to justify it. We have adopted modern shibboleths to replace those of old. We kill in the name of freedom and democracy, national liberation or whatever. But deep down the reasons are the same: greed, lust for power, suspicion of those who are different. The rhetoric changes, but the underlying behaviour isn't all that different, even if the means are.


Corrected spelling error.

[Edited 2011-04-01 07:52:52]
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: AFA: 1st Amendment Only Applies To Christianity

Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:22 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 48):
I could just as readily compose a condemnation of the Bible.

...and I'll join in right with you condemning the Bible as well. I am not a religious person at all.
It's always assumed that anyone who criticizes Islam is somehow a Bible-thumping, right-wing red neck that knows nothing about the Quran, Islam, blah, blah, blah.... when in fact most critics of Islam know a great deal about it.
Granted most vocal critics of Islam in the West come from Christian fundies but it doesn't mean that every critic is a Christian fundie.

[Edited 2011-04-01 07:23:08]
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