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747400sp
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:05 am

For years Honda has said that it would build a V8 for the Acura RL. I believe the 2005 Acura RL was supped to have a V8, the current RL and next gen Honda Ridgeline was supposed to have a V8, so what taking Honda so long to build one? If Honda had a V8 in 2005, the Acura RL could have been a better Lexus LS and Infiniti M class fighter and they could built a V8 Acura mate to the Ridgeline. If Honda want Acura to give Lexus and Infiniti a run for there money, they better get on the ball and built a V8. Yes, gas prices are high right now, but some body that make over $100000 a year ( a person who likely to buy a RL, LS and M model), should be able to afford a V8 car.
 
tootallsd
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:20 am

$100K if you have a house, kids, etc, desire to travel does not allow one to waste money or spend without limit. So I don't think that making $100K is a great reason to buy a V8 car. I also think they are a bit silly in this day and age. That last bit is my personal observation and preference and not some inference that everyone should feel the same way.

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rfields5421
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:56 am

I have a V8 for only one reason - I have a 4,200 lb boat which I want to tow to the lake.

Honda does not need a V-8 to be successful and profitable in the US.
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lowrider
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:17 am

I would rather they bring some diesel selections to the US. That would put me fully in the Honda camp. Perhaps start them in the Acura line and move them to the Honda line as they mature.
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BMI727
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:26 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):

It isn't about the number of cylinders, it's about power and characteristics. Sure it is generally easier to get more power out of a V8, it's doubtful that luxury sedan buyers would like a screaming V6 or that you could get enough torque out of a blown four banger to tow a boat, but for the most part, if people can make a car with a (smaller) V6 that performs like a V8, more power to them. I'm never going to complain about somebody making a car that isn't heavy enough.
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Ken777
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:57 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
It isn't about the number of cylinders, it's about power and characteristics.

Like the Offenhauser engines - 4 bangers that should be OK for a Honda.  

(for those who are too young to remember them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offenhauser)
 
MrChips
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 4:04 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
It isn't about the number of cylinders, it's about power and characteristics. Sure it is generally easier to get more power out of a V8, it's doubtful that luxury sedan buyers would like a screaming V6 or that you could get enough torque out of a blown four banger to tow a boat, but for the most part, if people can make a car with a (smaller) V6 that performs like a V8, more power to them

Honda already makes a V8 - just not for the street; their SuperGT/Indy both use V8s (which I think are close relatives to one another).

For Honda, I agree, a V8 doesn't make much sense. For Acura, however, I think that if they want to be taken seriously in the luxury market (as it seems like they do), they should have a V8 engine; all of their competitors have at least one. That said, I would rather see Honda/Acura first fix their styling, build an NSX replacement, create a true successor to the Integra Type R, stop clowning about with hybrids and build lightweight cars like they used to...the list goes on and on.
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BMI727
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 4:09 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
Like the Offenhauser engines - 4 bangers that should be OK for a Honda.

Well, if your I4 is as big as a V8, there isn't much point. Plus, depending on how it's mounted, the weight distribution could be worse.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 6):
Honda already makes a V8 - just not for the street; their SuperGT/Indy both use V8s (which I think are close relatives to one another).

I can't remember the exact size, but those engines are quite small. I want to say around 3L or so, so smaller than a lot of V6s on the road car market.
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Fly2HMO
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:10 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
Yes, gas prices are high right now, but some body that make over $100000 a year ( a person who likely to buy a RL, LS and M model), should be able to afford a V8 car.

Hate to break it to ya but I know MANY people having trouble making ends meet even with six digit salaries.
 
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Kiwirob
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:26 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
but some body that make over $100000 a year ( a person who likely to buy a RL, LS and M model), should be able to afford a V8 car.

That would be me, but with 3 kids, mortgage, repayments on 2 cars, living in a high cost country 100,000 doesn't allow you to go a blow money on a V8 sports/luxury seda, but I would if I could, then I'd need to earn 200,000

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
Sure it is generally easier to get more power out of a V8, it's doubtful that luxury sedan buyers would like a screaming V6

Better tell that to Audi, the 4.2 V8 in the A6 and S4 has been dropped for a supercharged V6.
 
BMI727
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:46 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
Better tell that to Audi, the 4.2 V8 in the A6 and S4 has been dropped for a supercharged V6.

It will be interesting to see how the new A6 goes, but the S4 is a different animal. I doubt anyone cross shops that with an Acura RL. If Audi makes it perform like the V8, I think people will accept it. But if A6 drivers are having to stomp on the pedal to get to the fat part of the power band, I'd expect some complaints.

But really, even though Audi is offering an upgraded V6 in lieu of a V8 on the upper-baseline model, I doubt it will be that much of a problem since V6s have long been accepted in the segment in the baseline trim levels. The point of my earlier post was that I wouldn't be holding my breath for a V6 powered S-Class or 7-Series to be offered in the US, except as part of a hybrid powertrain. I do believe, though, that American drivers would actually like diesel powered versions, as long as nobody tells them they are diesel powered.
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cws818
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:56 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
It will be interesting to see how the new A6 goes, but the S4 is a different animal. I doubt anyone cross shops that with an Acura RL.

And the Avalon driver swings...and misses.
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RayChuang
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:30 am

I don't think Honda will do a V-8 for any market because increasing fuel economy standards around the world make it a non-starter.

Now, Honda doing something like what Ford did with its Ecoboost line of smaller-displacement direct-injected turbocharged engines, that's a different story! I wouldn't be surprised that Honda is quietly working on such engines for future Honda models, especially the Accord sedan/wagon and CR-V small SUV.
 
photopilot
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:13 pm

Poor Engineering = V8 to get power
Good Engineering = V6 to get power
Exotic Engineering = 4 cyl to get power

Now you know why American manufacturers need a V8.

Honda does extremely well without a V8 in it's lineup because they concentrate on excellent engineering. And in future years, anything with a V8 will become not much more than a niche market not worth investing in.
 
cpd
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:52 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
I can't remember the exact size, but those engines are quite small. I want to say around 3L or so

Nothing wrong with a 3.4L V8. But even less wrong with a 2.65L V8, it also had a turbo - and damn could it move the car along! It sounded magical too - especially on city streets, with the sound bouncing off the skyscrapers! 

No chance for road use for such an engine? Don't be so sure - Porsche installed a similar spec and design 2.65L V8 turbo engine in the back of a Porsche "965" 911 when conducting feasibility studies for a high performance 911 derivative. And it was made into the 3.6L V8 340hp engine powering the Porsche 989.

I don't believe Honda needs a V8 engine, though they are persisting with a 5.5L 10 cylinder normally aspirated engine.
 
Ken777
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:31 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 13):
Now you know why American manufacturers need a V8.

American engineering wasn't that bad as I was growing up, but the cars were heavy.

Another factor related to the engineering needs of American cars was that they were generally neglected by a large group of owners (who didn't believe in oil changes very often) and the cars still held up.

BTW, the only engine replacement we have had in the family was in a Toyota Corolla that my grown son was driving.
 
JBirdAV8r
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:31 pm

The four-banger in my Acura (Honda) TSX, at 200hp, I think might be a bridge too far for the old K-engine power-wise. I've had a lot of problems with it...same with my friend and his S2000.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
Better tell that to Audi, the 4.2 V8 in the A6 and S4 has been dropped for a supercharged V6.

The S4 absolutely flies. I, at least, don't miss a V8 at all, although it'd be nice to see one in a new RS4 (the B8 S4, IMHO, feels like a B7 RS4--but better). I'm anxious to see the new A6...interior is    ....
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johns624
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:34 pm

Well, 747400sp, in engines as well as cruise ships and airplanes, bigger isn't always better.  
 
StarAC17
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Why hasn't Honda built a V8 yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:56 pm

Quoting MrChips (Reply 6):
For Honda, I agree, a V8 doesn't make much sense. For Acura, however, I think that if they want to be taken seriously in the luxury market (as it seems like they do), they should have a V8 engine; all of their competitors have at least one. That said, I would rather see Honda/Acura first fix their styling, build an NSX replacement, create a true successor to the Integra Type R, stop clowning about with hybrids and build lightweight cars like they used to...the list goes on and on.

I have faith that Honda could make a V6 that could woop all the competition's arse in performance and fuel efficiency. They are primarily an engine manufacturer anyways and cars are not all of their business.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 6):
For Honda, I agree, a V8 doesn't make much sense. For Acura, however, I think that if they want to be taken seriously in the luxury market (as it seems like they do), they should have a V8 engine; all of their competitors have at least one. That said, I would rather see Honda/Acura first fix their styling, build an NSX replacement, create a true successor to the Integra Type R, stop clowning about with hybrids and build lightweight cars like they used to...the list goes on and on.

Outside of Lexus (Toyota's luxury division) I don't think Acura's are sold outside of North America, and I think the same is true with Infiniti. I'm living in Melbourne right now and you see the same cars but they are all Honda's
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Jetsgo
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:02 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
a person who likely to buy a RL, LS and M model

Just to clarify, the LS is in a class above that of the RL, M, E, and 5, so I highly doubt they are cross shopped all that often. The GS is better compared to this class, which too of course offers a V8.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:39 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 14):
And it was made into the 3.6L V8 340hp engine powering the Porsche 989.

A Porsche never launched, so not much point discussing it in this topic.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
I have faith that Honda could make a V6 that could woop all the competition's arse in performance and fuel efficiency

They have already done it once, the NSX engine was a gem. A truly remarkable engine.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
Outside of Lexus (Toyota's luxury division) I don't think Acura's are sold outside of North America, and I think the same is true with Infiniti.

Some Acura's are sold outside the US wearing Honda badges, namely the Accord. Infinity was launched in Russia a few years ago and last year launched in the rest of Europe and the UK, so expect to see them in Australia sometime in the near future, they aren't going to engineer right hand drive cars just for the UK.
 
BMI727
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:59 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 14):
And it was made into the 3.6L V8 340hp engine powering the Porsche 989.

Ferrari has been doing small V8s for decades. People get awfully wrapped up in the number of cylinders when displacement tends to count for more. A lot of semi trucks are powered by I6s, so why Acura couldn't power the RL with a V6 is beyond me.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 13):
Poor Engineering = V8 to get power
Good Engineering = V6 to get power
Exotic Engineering = 4 cyl to get power

I guess that Formula 1 will finally become exotic in 2013 then.     

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 16):
same with my friend and his S2000.

That engine was a real screamer. If you dropped that in place of a V6 I'd expect some people to complain since that is not so far removed from being motorcycle-like.
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mham001
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:09 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 13):
Poor Engineering = V8 to get power
Good Engineering = V6 to get power
Exotic Engineering = 4 cyl to get power

Now you know why American manufacturers need a V8.

Silly.

That GM small block continues to make complete fools of the "exotic engineering" snobs.
 
747400sp
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:14 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 17):
Well, 747400sp, in engines as well as cruise ships and airplanes, bigger isn't always better.




LOL, I guess you caught on to the fact that I love big moving things.  
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:50 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 13):
Poor Engineering = V8 to get power
Good Engineering = V6 to get power
Exotic Engineering = 4 cyl to get power

Now you know why American manufacturers need a V8.

Mind you, Ford's new range of Ecoboost engines with direct fuel injection and turbocharging are probably just as advanced as anything you see from Germany nowadays. And they've extended Ecoboost to really small engines: the recent Ford B-Max concept showed a 1.0-liter I-3 Ecoboost engine, my guess probably rated at around 100 bhp.
 
mham001
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:19 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 13):
Poor Engineering = V8 to get power
Good Engineering = V6 to get power
Exotic Engineering = 4 cyl to get power

Now you know why American manufacturers need a V8.

Also does not explain why only European manufacturers are producing V12s. Is that "poor engineering" too?
 
MrChips
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:24 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
Outside of Lexus (Toyota's luxury division) I don't think Acura's are sold outside of North America, and I think the same is true with Infiniti. I'm living in Melbourne right now and you see the same cars but they are all Honda's

Despite all the problems of the last few years, the US auto market remains one of the largest (if not the largest) in the world. To neglect their demands would be to the detriment of any manufacturer, which is what Honda has done with a number of Acura models, specifically the range-topping RL. All of its competitors have a V8 option; depending who we're talking about, uptake of the V8 model is up to half the total production of that type. As a result, the RL is perennially one of the slowest-selling cars in North America.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 22):

That GM small block continues to make complete fools of the "exotic engineering" snobs.

Don't kid yourself, the GM Small Block V8 has no shortage of "exotic engineering" these days. It will only be more impressive once the first Gen V engines start to arrive on the scene next year. They will incorporate just about every modern technology available - variable valve timing and direct fuel injection being chief among them. Malaise-era V8s these will not be.
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Kent350787
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:46 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
Outside of Lexus (Toyota's luxury division) I don't think Acura's are sold outside of North America, and I think the same is true with Infiniti.

Infiniti is relaunching in Australia in a couple of months, having originally launched here in the mid-90s at around the same time as Lexus - but failing miserably and closing down after a couple of years. Mind you, Lexus didn't do much until they launched the IS either.

No Acuras sold here officially - the TSX is an Accord euro, the RL is a Legend the old MDX was sold here (is it still Canadian?) and, of course the NSX was also a honda here.
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mirrodie
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:50 am

Quoting lowrider (Reply 3):
I would rather they bring some diesel selections to the US. That would put me fully in the Honda camp.

Thats what Ive been saying. We're on our first honda SUV, only thing I could ask for is a diesel option. I do miss the old torquey v8 but these days, diesel trumps a v8 IMHO

Just put our 96oooth mile on the Altima and its a 2000. Runs fine and truth be told, there are just no cars out there worth getting rid of it for. But if I see more diesel options pop up, I'd hop on board.


BTW, just saw the Volt on the road for hte first time. Since engineering questions surfaced above, I have to wonder. That car is all electric and as such has limited range. Why would engineers opt for daytime running lamps when they are unnecessary and only drain that range?

I dont know why Honda isnt jumping to V8s yet. All the car manufacturers seem all over the place with what they want.
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cpd
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:54 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 25):
Also does not explain why only European manufacturers are producing V12s. Is that "poor engineering" too?

Have to agree with you. All these others with their superbly engineered 4 cylinder engines took ages to surpass a poorly engineered 4.9L 12 cylinder car that until recently held the record for one of the fastest Le Mans 24 hour races ever. That vehicle was the 1971 917 "Kurz" with the number 22, with a tubular magnesium chassis - driven by Dr Helmut Marko and Gijs van Lennep.

That said, the idea of giant V8 "mountain engines" was proven to not be the most ideal method by Can-Am racing. Porsche with a smaller turbocharged 12 cylinder, even the very first 4.5L form in testing developed 850hp - and then in 5.0L form upwards of 1000hp, figures that were utterly remarkable for the time - and even more remarkable in that those engines were quite reliable too. Unlike the McLaren M8D which Penske provided to Porsche for evaluation. A full-power run on the dyno at Weissach proved disastrous for its giant Chevy V8.

Some people say that Porsche just had good luck, but they made their luck - they excessively tested their cars to make sure the things were reliable. For Le Mans, they'd do a 30 hour stint with the car on the rollers for preparation, with Messrs Falk, Bott and Singer and various others all taking turns behind the wheel - driving to a plan that would simulate an entire race and then some. They'd have those cars weighted down with concrete. It was a hot and very dangerous job. That's real engineering at its best - not leaving anything to chance.

The Europeans are still showing that smaller V8s around 4 to 5 litres (and others) with direct injection and low-boost turbocharging seems to be the optimum arrangement for excellent power and exceptional fuel economy. Like the new Mercedes CL63 AMG - how can it be so powerful and fast, yet deliver 10L/100km fuel economy? They are seemingly conflicting objectives - but the one thing manages both.

Engineering can't be defined by amounts of cylinders - it's the overall result achieved at the end.

[Edited 2011-04-10 20:54:43]

[Edited 2011-04-10 21:01:14]
 
aerobalance
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:25 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 29):
.


Two different worlds.

Racing, in general with their different classes, possesses rules for engine displacement and vehicle weight with the potential for unlimited monetary budgets if you've got the cash. Cash can buy you engineering ability if you choose to use it for that purpose.

Production cars have to answer for their respective companies expected profit margins. Build what the people want, as cheaply as you can, and hopefully you can maximize your profits per vehicle by charging the highest price possible for that vehicle.

In today's world, racing components from the higher classes of racing have nothing in common with production cars in terms of actual parts being carried over, thus I do not see a true correlation between production and racing cars of the present.

Yesterdays NASCAR and NHRA pro racing were built on production engine castings - that world is gone now due to rules allowance of non-production components.

As much as I love racing and enjoy seeing racing engineering blow through money to get their desired results the Le Mans Porsche 917 you mention has nothing to do with Porsche's production vehicles of that time or even now and should not even be mentioned in this thread. Let's stick with why Honda will not produce a V-8 production engine.

My take - Honda is very much an efficient engine company and will only be building engines that they feel can do the job for the vehicle platform it's designed for, but their cars are getting heavier and heavier each model change over. If future models get heavier will they produce a small V-8 or go with a turbo 6? Will the cost of fuel in the US dictate what they will do with future vehicles? Will this expected higher fuel prices persuade the customer what types of vehicles they will buy next? When it takes 3-4 years to plan your next vehicle model it's tough to plan for the changes in customers buying preferences and fuel costs. I wouldn't want to be in the automobile business myself.   

[Edited 2011-04-10 21:28:30]
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Kent350787
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:20 am

Quoting aerobalance (Reply 30):
If future models get heavier will they produce a small V-8 or go with a turbo 6?

I wonder whether Honda retains any of its F1 forced induction knowledge? Given the Euro moves to smaller capacity forced induction engines, I'd suggest Honda moving down this path as being the most likely move.....
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cpd
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:37 am

Quoting aerobalance (Reply 30):
of that time or even now and should not even be mentioned in this thre

What I'm trying to point out is that engine size and capacity has very little to do with what is good engineering and what isn't. Porsche is one of the better examples of where racing improves the breed, so to speak, because engines were so often built with multiple purposes in mind. So the Indy V8 was constructed to do the racing job, but with the idea of it being repurposed into a future road-car engine, which it ultimately was - until the project was cancelled due to internal politics, so close to the public launch. The 962 engine ultimately formed the base for the water-cooled 911 engines when they were new.

And then some road-car engines were tweaked into racing-engines, etc. You had fuel economy requirements, so people had to think how can we get the power with economy as well. That's the right kind of racing that improves the breed, it remains relevant to road-use.

Quoting aerobalance (Reply 30):
My take - Honda is very much an efficient engine company and will only be building engines that they feel can do the job for the vehicle platform it's designed for

I don't think they will either - and to be honest, I feel that they will become a niche-market player, I don't know if they are reading the market right. I believe Toyota will become the dominant player and will in the future be the most innovative among the Japanese manufacturers, even if that seems hard to believe at the moment.

I do take the "efficiency" stuff that the Japanese manufacturers talk about with a grain of salt, sometimes the efficiency is a marvel of the PR people doing great advertising, rather than actual real world efficiency. They were particularly slow to embrace high-efficiency small diesel engines - while you have the likes of Audi and VW possessing some smaller diesel engined cars that are both clean running and more efficient than the hybrids of Japan.

It's VW that I think has the potential to harm the Japanese manufacturers - it can beat them at their own game, plus it has the economies of scale working in its favour - letting them include quite noteworthy features as standard while keeping the price very sharp. That's the other side of the equation too - the engineering of component sharing. Let all the models have the same high-spec sat-nav and audio system, then buy it in large quantities. Or develop a sophisticated and efficient small turbo engine, then share it across numerous models. You can see some of that approach with VW and Audi - and it gets the customers into showrooms.

Compare a Toyota Corolla Ultima (a top of the range one) with a VW Golf 90TSI Trendline (which is a lower-spec model) - as an example. The Golf was cheaper at the time by a few thousand dollars, and includes a 7 speed DSG transmission at the price I looked at, along with a brilliant little turbo engine that is both economical and powerful. Plus it is built like bank-vault.

By comparison, the Corolla has a very old-fashioned 4 speed automatic. It's an especially stark comparison between the two - but it illustrates the issue that the Japanese manufacturers face at the moment. They need to pick up their game in that respect, or they'll find other manufacturers starting to steal their market share, and when/if that happens, it won't matter if Honda or others do a V8 or not, it'll be too late.

[Edited 2011-04-10 23:09:59]
 
StarAC17
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:17 pm

Quoting MrChips (Reply 26):
Despite all the problems of the last few years, the US auto market remains one of the largest (if not the largest) in the world. To neglect their demands would be to the detriment of any manufacturer, which is what Honda has done with a number of Acura models, specifically the range-topping RL. All of its competitors have a V8 option; depending who we're talking about, uptake of the V8 model is up to half the total production of that type. As a result, the RL is perennially one of the slowest-selling cars in North America.

We all know that North America is the largest car market (right now) but my point was simply that cars we no as Acura's are simply Honda's everywhere else and do not necessarily have the luxury painted niche that it has in North America.

Also when Honda has so many well selling cars (the civic, the accord, the CR-V etc.) out of their entire auto division and with the current economic climate (oil is not going down in price long term) what incentive do they have to develop a V8. It makes poor long term economic sense to develop a V8 engine IMO.
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DucatiRacer
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:30 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
I wouldn't be holding my breath for a V6 powered S-Class or 7-Series to be offered in the US



No need to hold your breath at all. For well over a year BMW North America has offered the 7 series with a twin turbo in-line 6 (badged as the 740). It has been chosen as the more enjoyable to drive 7 as compared to the 750 (V8) in several journalist's opinions that I have read since it was launched early last year as a 2011 model, mostly because of its slightly lighter weight and better throttle response off the line as compared with the larger motor. It also gets marginally better fuel economy.

Additionally, the base Porsche Panamera comes with a V6 engine. You don't get the V8 in the Panamera unless you step up the "S".

The MB S-Class hybrid has a V6 as well, although it is augmented by the electric propulsion to mimic the performance of the V8. BMW went the Lexus route with its hybrid 7 Series by using a V8 plus electric to approximate the performance of the V12.
 
mham001
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:13 pm

Quoting DucatiRacer (Reply 34):

No need to hold your breath at all. For well over a year BMW North America has offered the 7 series with a twin turbo in-line 6 (badged as the 740). It has been chosen as the more enjoyable to drive 7 as compared to the 750 (V8) in several journalist's opinions that I have read since it was launched early last year as a 2011 model, mostly because of its slightly lighter weight and better throttle response off the line as compared with the larger motor. It also gets marginally better fuel economy.

And on the flip side, they upped the M3 to a V8.
 
DucatiRacer
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:20 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 35):
And on the flip side, they upped the M3 to a V8.

From what I have read recently, the next generation M3 will be back to a 6. The new M5 and M6 revert to an 8 rather than the 10 cylinder (I believe it will be an even more powerful version of the engine currently powering the X5M and X6M, but making something in the neighborhood of 600 hp), in each case the M motors will no longer be naturally aspirated.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:40 pm

Quoting lowrider (Reply 3):
I would rather they bring some diesel selections to the US.

Of course, though that has never really been Honda's thing.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):

Some Acura's are sold outside the US wearing Honda badges, namely the Accord.

The US Honda Accord is different than the rest of the world Accord, which is sold in the US as the Acura TSX.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):
Infinity

Infiniti

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):
and the UK, so expect to see them in Australia sometime in the near future, they aren't going to engineer right hand drive cars just for the UK.

Um, they are a Japanese company. I don't think they have much trouble engineering RHD.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 27):
RL is a Legend

I never got why Acura dumped the Legend name here. It was...well...Legendary.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
I wouldn't be holding my breath for a V6 powered S-Class or 7-Series to be offered in the US

You really shouldn't hold your breath on any BMW offering a V6. Also, 6 cylinder S-Classes were all over the place not all that long ago.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 35):

And on the flip side, they upped the M3 to a V8.

The M3 is going back to its proper cylinder configuration.
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Kent350787
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:49 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
The US Honda Accord is different than the rest of the world Accord, which is sold in the US as the Acura TSX.

The US Accord is also built in RHD in Thailand and sold here in Oz - we have the Accord and the Accord Euro (Acura TSX without the insanely ugly US nose.....)
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ha763
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:53 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
I never got why Acura dumped the Legend name here. It was...well...Legendary.

They wanted the public to learn to say Acura instead of the model name only. When asked, many people would say they had a Legend or Integra instead of Acura Legend or Acura Integra.
 
cargolex
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:06 pm

People have been asking "Why doesn't honda build a V8?" since the early nineties. The answer to that question: They don't feel like it. Hondas of all feathers seem to be fine without a V8 and they've got a line of genuinely great V6's. Now, you could argue that the Ridgeline, Pilot, and Legend/Acura RL could benefit from a V8. Yes. But with so few applications, does it really make sense to invest in that? Probably not. Even the NSX never had a V8 and it was just as good to drive as it's V8 powered rivals.

Quote:
Porsche

I think people are forgetting that Porsche once made a V8 sports car, the 928, and it failed to overtake the 911 in popularity and desirability, despite being a great car and one of the most modern cars of the 1970s and 80s. It also wasn't as good a sports car as the 911. Porsche had invested too heavily in making it an Aston-Martin like GT, not wanting to steal sales from the evergreen 911.

Quote:
Six cylinder S-class

The V8 S-class is the norm, but for many, many years the straight six powered S-class was a popular option in the United States and remains common elsewhere.

Quote:
BTW, just saw the Volt on the road for hte first time. Since engineering questions surfaced above, I have to wonder. That car is all electric and as such has limited range. Why would engineers opt for daytime running lamps when they are unnecessary and only drain that range?

The Volt is not an all-electric. It's a hybrid. It's hybrid system works different than other hybrid systems, but it can run on gasoline when the electric charge runs down.

------------

Ultimately, how many cylinders you need is a function of what the engine is going to be doing. In a 2 liter car, you really don't need anything more than a four. From two to four liters, a six becomes a better deal. Over 4 liters, you probably want an eight. Now when you get into ten, twelve, and the rarified sixteen, that's something else. A Twelve is silky smooth but very complex even in the best of cases. Does that mechanical complexity and the cost associated make sense for the application? In a Ferrari or an S-class where the cost is sort of not a real factor, yes. In a Hyundai Elantra, definitely not.

Now an eight is not that complex, not like a twelve. But if you're going to make a small eight, a big six might be a better choice. Another function is how you want that engine to behave. Big bore for high rev hp? Long stroke for torque? These factors matter too.

Personally, I don't think Honda will do a V8 car engine anytime soon. They don't need or want to. And then there is the PR factor. Honda is a company that has always advertised getting more from smaller engines and stressing efficiency. A V8, even if it's a very efficient one, might be incompatible with that image.

People tend to get bogged down by traditional imagery. They think of a V8 and think of a Dodge Challenger. They think of a V16 an think of a 1930's Cadillac. Little do they know that in the fifties BRM put a 1.5 liter V16 into a race car - imagine the complexity of something like that.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:45 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):

Silly.

That GM small block continues to make complete fools of the "exotic engineering" snobs.

Say what you want, but when was the last time a US engine builder, received an award for an engine? Oh yeah, pretty much never.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Engine_of_the_Year

The Europeans, or the Germans more specifically, have always had the lead.
 
cpd
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:33 am

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 40):
It also wasn't as good a sports car as the 911

Instead, it was a GT car. I think in some respects, it was a better car - probably with respect to the 964. But it wasn't a 911.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 40):
Even the NSX never had a V8 and it was just as good to drive as it's V8 powered rivals.

In the end, it simply became outdated and expensive. The pedestrian 206kW didn't help. It needed more power. Maybe a 3.6L version of the V6 would have done great - bringing it close to the specs of the original 911 GT3 engine (which had 265kW). It's too late now.

However, it does seem that they are becoming sought-after in Australia at least. And with the robust mechanicals and traditional style Japanese build quality, they seem to hold up very well.
 
cpd
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:10 am

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 40):
The V8 S-class is the norm, but for many, many years the straight six powered S-class was a popular option in the United States and remains common elsewhere.

Here, the 6 cylinder S-Class is very popular too (S320).

And with others in the class like Audi A8, nearly every one of those I see has the badge on the back A8 3.0L TDI Quattro - or 4.2L TDI Quattro (which is quite powerful and fast).

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
The M3 is going back to its proper cylinder configuration.

The V8 was a lighter and more powerful engine than the old S54 inline six and it actually has really decent fuel economy too for such a potent engine. Few BMW engines I've heard sounded better than that angry, bellowing V8. The old inline 6 though was still worthy - it had a long heritage. Shame the M3 has become so heavy - it's a bigger car than the classic 4-cylinder M3 which had such a lot of racing success. But that's the general trend I guess,

It does seem now that the future is turbocharged engines, the X5M, X6M have gone that way, the M5 seems like it will follow in that path, and probably the M6 too. So no more S85 10 cylinder.   The M division had a history of building great normally aspirated engines, S54, S70 (the famous 6.1L V12 McLaren F1 engine), S85.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 40):
Ultimately, how many cylinders you need is a function of what the engine is going to be doing. In a 2 liter car, you really don't need anything more than a four. From two to four liters, a six becomes a better deal. Over 4 liters, you probably want an eight. Now when you get into ten, twelve, and the rarified sixteen, that's something else. A Twelve is silky smooth but very complex even in the best of cases.

I remember Mr Petrotta (Ferrari Enzo engineer) being asked why it didn't have a 10 cylinder engine, to have closer links to formula 1 (which had 10 cylinder 3.0L engines at the time). He replied that the 6.0L 12 cylinder was more efficient than a 6.0L 10 cylinder, but I can't remember his exact wording, but it was for similar reasons as you wouldn't probably want an 8.0L 4 cylinder engine. It was an interesting interview.
 
cargolex
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:12 am

Quote:
In the end, it simply became outdated and expensive.

16 years will do that. When the NSX was new, it was light years better than the Ferrari 348, but by the time production ended, it was up against the 360. It was in the position the Lotus Esprit Turbo was in when the NSX was new - getting old. Although to be fair, the Esprit was always a creature of the 1970s no matter how much it improved (and it was heavily updated as it aged, moreso than the NSX was).

Quote:
Instead, it was a GT car.

Like I said, too much of a compromise. They didn't want to cannibalize 911 sales - instead, they hoped the 928 would eventually take over for the 911. But it was always more Grand Tourer than sports car, and that handicapped it - particularly as it got older and heavier, eventually ending up in a high-priced limbo where few people even realized it was still on sale.

It's also suffered as an older car. Not as valuable as 911 and arguably different in mission, but more expensive to own and live with than it's more popular sibling.
 
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asuflyer05
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:58 am

The market for V8 powered mid-level luxury cars is slim. The take rate for V8 powered E-Class and 5-series models is very low when compared to the percentage of 6-cylinder models. Most manufacturers are taking a look at engine sizes in their lineups and downsizing. In fact, Mercedes-Benz will launch a 4-cylinder C-Class here in the states in the next few weeks.
 
cpd
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:34 pm

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 44):
When the NSX was new, it was light years better than the Ferrari 348, but by the time production ended, it was up against the 360. It was in the position the Lotus Esprit Turbo was in when the NSX was new - getting old. Although to be fair, the Esprit was always a creature of the 1970s no matter how much it improved (and it was heavily updated as it aged, moreso than the NSX was).

That was their huge mistake - they rested on the laurels.

I remember one magazine testing a 1998 vintage Honda NSX, the 3.2L model, but still with the pop-up lights. It was run at the Holden proving ground in Melbourne, and one of the other cars was the Lotus Esprit V8, a bright yellow one. The Lotus might have slammed to 100km/h quickly, and run out to 283km/h on the speed-bowl, but the magazine commented that "the NSX is the one we'd take everyday" - even though it managed "only" 267km/h.

I just wonder how magical a Honda 3.6L V8 might have been, given the V6 was, and still is one of the sweeter engines. We'll never know, I guess.  
Quoting asuflyer05 (Reply 45):
The market for V8 powered mid-level luxury cars is slim.

And yet the funny thing is (at least in Australia), if you chuck a 4.0L V8 that revs to 8300rpm, or a 6.2L V8 in the smallest size sedan or 2 door they make, the things virtually sell themselves out of the showrooms. I'm referring of course to the BMW M3 and the Mercedes C63 AMG. Even more remarkable, the stats here are showing a lot of C63 AMG cars are being sold as upgraded models with the AMG Performance Pack. Even stranger, the things are hugely expensive here too - A C63 won't leave you much left from AUD$150,000 or so (taxes and tariffs), and the M3 is now AUD$135,500 - which is still costly.

Quoting asuflyer05 (Reply 45):
In fact, Mercedes-Benz will launch a 4-cylinder C-Class here in the states in the next few weeks.

Surprising they haven't done it already, with things like C250 CGI. That said, I'd prefer the C250 CDI BlueEfficiency - it's 150kW and 500Nm surely makes light work of most tasks, and yet the fuel economy is still thrifty. The catalog on here:

http://www2.mercedes-benz.com.au/con...c-class/w204/catalogue_prices.html

See page 122 for the specs. All the diesels seem a better bet than the petrol engined versions (except the thundering C63 which sits in a league of its own). If I'm not mistaken, the diesels also need Ad-Blue.

[Edited 2011-04-13 06:35:25]
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:01 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 32):
They were particularly slow to embrace high-efficiency small diesel engines - while you have the likes of Audi and VW possessing some smaller diesel engined cars that are both clean running and more efficient than the hybrids of Japan.

Not true Toyota have been selling diesels in Europe for the last 20 odd years, they make very good diesels, every Toyota I see apart from the Prius is a diesel.

Quoting DucatiRacer (Reply 34):
The MB S-Class hybrid has a V6 as well

They also build the S-class with a 4 cylinder diesel.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
The US Honda Accord is different than the rest of the world Accord, which is sold in the US as the Acura TSX.

Some parts of the rest of the world get the US Accord, we do in NZ and Australia. The Acura TSX is sold as the Accord in Europe and the Accord Euro in NZ and Australia.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
Um, they are a Japanese company. I don't think they have much trouble engineering RHD.

But they didn't the first Infiniti models were engineered for the US market except the G20 which was the European Nissan Primera.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
The M3 is going back to its proper cylinder configuration.

You're the first person I've heard claiming the M3 was returning to a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder engine, bet that's going to sell well in the US.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:43 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 43):
Few BMW engines I've heard sounded better than that angry, bellowing V8.

Completely disagree there. The I6 BMWs have a growl all their own that sounds even better.

Quoting cpd (Reply 43):
Shame the M3 has become so heavy

Its not THAT heavy, though the proper balance was probably the E36 model.

Quoting cpd (Reply 43):
The V8 was a lighter and more powerful engine than the old S54 inline six and it actually has really decent fuel economy too for such a potent engine.

It wasn't, however, inherently balanced.

Quoting asuflyer05 (Reply 45):
In fact, Mercedes-Benz will launch a 4-cylinder C-Class here in the states in the next few weeks.

That's hardly a new concept. Mercedes almost always has a 4 cylinder in its US lineup. Its only been a short time without.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 47):

Some parts of the rest of the world get the US Accord, we do in NZ and Australia. The Acura TSX is sold as the Accord in Europe and the Accord Euro in NZ and Australia.

Makes sense, but didn't realize that.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 47):
But they didn't the first Infiniti models were engineered for the US market except the G20 which was the European Nissan Primera.

The first Infiniti models are more than 20 years old. I'm talking about the modern company.

That said, the G50 (first generation) Q45 was based on the Japanese market Nissan President. The original M30 was a Nissan Leopard, also from the Japanese market.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 47):
You're the first person I've heard claiming the M3 was returning to a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder engine, bet that's going to sell well in the US.

I see a proper 3 Series as being an inline 6. The original 4 cylinder M3s were lovely track cars, but absolute garbage as daily drivers.
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lowrider
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RE: Why Hasn't Honda Built A V8 Yet?

Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:16 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 47):
Not true Toyota have been selling diesels in Europe for the last 20 odd years, they make very good diesels,

Toyota did offer a small diesel pickup in the US in the early 80s, and while it wasn't exacty quick, it was solid as an anvil. Nissan and Isuzu also offered diesel SUVs at about the same time. If I could have bough a diesel Pathfinder, I would have gone with that over my Toyota in my last car purchase.
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