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WarRI1
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A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:46 am

I am curious. I wonder how many members were raised, and supported by a parent, or parents who were union members? I wonder how many members were educated while being supported by union wages? I hear so much blather on here about evil unions, that it makes me wonder, who remained loyal to the idea of unions and who may have turned anti-union after benefitting from them?


In my case, my parents were not union members. I raised my children to respect what unions did for the common people. They learned well, they have not turned their backs on the union people and wages that fed them, educated them. I admire that.
 
cpd
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:49 am

No, I wasn't brought up in a pro-union home (but not an anti-union one either).

However, I do support unions - except however my membership has lapsed at the moment (for a few years been like that). I'll join up again - but at the moment, there are no "thugs" forcing me to join if I don't want to, nor am I threatened by union workers, contrary to popular opinions that seem to be thrown around in the media and on internet forums.

Where I work, we are there to get work done - and that's what we do. The union is there to sort out those tricky things like leave entitlements for all staff mysteriously going missing, etc. (and in that one case, they swung into action and got it sorted out quickly).
 
ronglimeng
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:34 am

Hi WarRI1:

Your opening questions are kind of weighted and I doubt if you’ll see too many admissions here from people who have bitten the hand that feeds them!

I come from a non-union family and the feeling in our family was slightly anti-union. There might have been a slight tinge of jealousy to that attitude.

For myself, I had several summer jobs in union environments. In the last case, it meant that as a labourer in a sensitive area (loading dynamite & blasting slurries) I was making more than my father, a skilled technician. He should have been earning more; not me less!

We only hear the worst things about unions but they have protected workingman against the worst abuses of capitalism. I believe in capitalism but there needs to be a countervailing force.

Later on I worked as a professional in a union environment. I never looked down on them. My thinking was that whatever they got, I would get too. Thanks a lot brothers!
 
dl021
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:15 pm

I grew up in a family that had both pro and con union people. My brother was a ramp rat for Eastern and a union rep....they helped kill their airline demanding more and more when they already made comparatively great wages for essentially unskilled labor. My father saw unions as being largely criminal enterprises and corrupt beyond redemption.

If we look at it realistically the unions are a component of capitalism, as the workers are entitled to work whereever they can get the best wages and benefits for themselves, and in a free society ought to be able to organize themselves. That said businesses ought to be allowed to ignore labor unions at their discretion. If the labor union has enough power to deny services to a business then the business has a logical decision to make...if the business doesn't need the labor from the union then perhaps the union members ought to consider their options carefully before precipitous action. I think the issue becomes sticky for some when unions get politicians to enact laws that force businesses to accept union demands rather than letting the marketplace decide what's going to happen.

If the entire group of workers decides to deprive a business of its labor because they want more than the business is giving, then more power to them. I admire that. It's a risk and there are no real gains in life without some risk. However if there is no potential negative consequences to such action then it turns into economic blackmail/coercion. often with the imprimature of elected officials who were heavily supported by unions.

I would lay odds that since the 1950s unions have done more harm than good in most industries in the US, especially now that the weight of promised pensions and benefits (that couldn't be afforded when promised, much less now) are coming due. Safety and manageable hours are a couple of areas where unions continue to provide service to it's members, but when unions force businesses through laws to make what amount to be suicide compacts where the business cannot make enough money to justify investors continuing to invest, then they kill their golden egg laying geese.

If unions know how to run businesses better than the people currently running them they ought to raise the money to start a business that does it their way, and force the rest of the marketplace to follow them. That they haven't done so is telling.....and I know that sometimes unions end up owning a business wholly or partly due to debts due for demands met by management who were coerced into unkeepable promises (and usually when they end up owning a business it doesn't work that well, although I'm certain there are exceptions.).

Unions do influence their members heavily, just like religions do, but just like religions the more educated and worldly those children get the more disparate their actual beliefs become.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:32 pm

How about those that were raised and supported in non-union households?

We certainly had food on the table, took vacations, got good educations and lived rather well without a single member being a member in any union.

Your whole premise sounds like union membership bestows some superior lifestyle.  
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:33 pm

Growing up in Brazil, a very pro-labor country, all I remember is massive strikes disturbing everybody's life all the time. It really blows when everybody from a worker caught off-guard commuting to work all the way up to his/her employer are hurt by when bus drivers go on strike and things grind to a halt. It hurts everybody, especially the guy making minimum wage that now has one less day (at a minimum) of work to earn that bit of wage. Not to mention how bus driver unions raise costs of fares that take a substantial amount of everybody else's paycheck. Aside, of course, from the occasional lighting a bus or two on fire.

Sorry, but one has got be to completely brainwashed to tolerate this type of behavior. Unless, of course, you are a direct beneficiary of this crap. And this stuff happens exactly because unions have been given too much power.

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
I wonder how many members were educated while being supported by union wages?

Define "supported by union wages". The company pays worker's wages.
 
lowrider
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:39 pm

Grew up in a mostly anti-union family. I never had any desire to join one, but at my first airline it was either join and pay dues, or don't join and still pay dues. So I joined figuring it would at least be nice to have a vote in how things went. After seeing some of the things the union did on a local level, I decided that they weren't as bad as I had been raised to believe. My opinion and experience are limited to pilot unions, but I think they still serve a useful function today. Having worked at both union and non-union airlines, I would rather work at a union one.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:16 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
How about those that were raised and supported in non-union households?

We certainly had food on the table, took vacations, got good educations and lived rather well without a single member being a member in any union.

Your whole premise sounds like union membership bestows some superior lifestyle.

The premise was about anyone who came from a household with some union influence, wages, not non-union. Obviously that point was missed by you. I never said that union wages bestow superior life style, you said it. If one comes from a higher income group where the family lives well, God bless them. Do you think that I who spent most of my life fighting for a better standard of living for workers, including myself would even think to begrudge that for anyone, union, or non?  
 
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WarRI1
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:35 pm

I would like to thank all who responded, union supporters, or not. I put this question on in a loaded manner, intentionally. I wanted to see, who had the courage to reply. I would have bet my shirt that the most vociferous anti-union folks would not respond. I was not disappointed.

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 2):
Your opening questions are kind of weighted and I doubt if you’ll see too many admissions here from people who have bitten the hand that feeds them!

Exactly Sir, the hand that feeds them, well said. We know they are out there, good luck to them.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 5):

Define "supported by union wages". The company pays worker's wages.

You Sir, do not disappoint either, you defend what you believe, just as I do. I give you credit for that.

The company pays for LABOR, union or non. they do not give anything for free, union people, non-union people work for their wages. The workers owe the corporation nothing, labor for money, you do understand that concept, I hope? Union wages, are union, negotiated wages, not gifts from the almighty corporation that you seem to worship. I do not see your point, you are incorrect when you try to separate, and denigrate those who have the courage to work, or join a union in this greedy corporate world.
 
cpd
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:17 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
I would like to thank all who responded, union supporters, or not. I put this question on in a loaded manner, intentionally. I wanted to see, who had the courage to reply. I would have bet my shirt that the most vociferous anti-union folks would not respond. I was not disappointed.

Unfortunately, it's this kind of thing that gives the moderate unions (and their members) a bad name. We aren't all militant unionists.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:30 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 9):
Unfortunately, it's this kind of thing that gives the moderate unions (and their members) a bad name. We aren't all militant unionists.

I must admit, that I do not understand. I guess I would ask you to explain your version of unionism. Are we to smile them to death, are we to take benevolent handouts from corporations, depend on their generosity? I maybe incorrect in reading your reply, If I am, my apology. If I am not, let us hear how you deal with with these SOB's in the US. I do not lay down and get footprints on my face, if that is what you advocate, good for you.   
 
Okie
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:35 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
I must admit, that I do not understand. I guess I would ask you to explain your version of unionism. Are we to smile them to death, are we to take benevolent handouts from corporations, depend on their generosity


Your philosophy is that there should be an adversarial relationship between the employer and the employee.
It does not take much imagination why the massive fail with the number of unions over the last few decades and the massive off shoring of jobs.

Okie
 
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WarRI1
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:50 am

Quoting okie (Reply 11):
Your philosophy is that there should be an adversarial relationship between the employer and the employee.

Wrong.


It does not take much imagination why the massive fail with the number of unions over the last few decades and the massive off shoring of jobs.

That is so naive, it is almost laughable. It was an enrichment scheme by the corporations, with the help of our own congress. Dump all responsibility, dump employees, exploit people in other countries. It has worked well, until now. Greed has taken over, look at how well we are doing here now. We let cheap labor flow in, while the jobs flowed out. What a masterful plan, look at the end result. Of course if one is one of the exploiters, all is well, and that is all that matters. Pathetic.
 
BMI727
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:53 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
I guess I would ask you to explain your version of unionism. Are we to smile them to death, are we to take benevolent handouts from corporations, depend on their generosity? I maybe incorrect in reading your reply, If I am, my apology. If I am not, let us hear how you deal with with these SOB's in the US. I do not lay down and get footprints on my face, if that is what you advocate, good for you.

With an attitude like that, I can't imagine why any sane company would want to deal with a union. Hello, China...
 
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LAXintl
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:00 am

So WarRI1 based on your comments, do feel companies exist to serve their employees, or are employees given a job to serve companies?

If you believe its the former, than here is quite clearly a good reason why business is leaving America and union membership continues to decline. To be employed and earning a few dollars is benefit given by a company that hires you not a god given right to have.
 
cpd
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:03 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
I must admit, that I do not understand.

Well, I'm thinking of one particular "anti-union" scare advert used in one of the previous Australian federal election campaigns by the conservative Liberal/National coalition where these scary looking "union" people (made to look like that) barged into a suburban hairdresser. This of course was matched with scary music/sounds. It might not be accurate, but it was playing on fears of unions, and the old-union image - trying to portray union people as aggressive, violent people, etc.

It is that image - however untrue it might be - that must be changed, otherwise it'll be really hard to attract new people to unions. And you know what happens then.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
To be employed and earning a few dollars is benefit given by a company that hires you not a god given right to have

However, it is not also a carte blanche for corporations to do however they wish with workers rights. And unfortunately - without adequate regulation, it has been shown that reasonable workers rights and entitlements will be taken away. And sometimes, even regulation doesn't suffice - and that's the point where a union comes in.

Here we are talking about reasonably accepted standards in my country - which might be considered outrageous elsewhere. If someone is working on a gazetted public holiday, they are paid at a rate that is appropriate, rather than just the standard rate, etc. Same with overtime pay, etc.

[Edited 2011-04-22 20:10:05]
 
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WarRI1
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:06 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10): I guess I would ask you to explain your version of unionism. Are we to smile them to death, are we to take benevolent handouts from corporations, depend on their generosity? I maybe incorrect in reading your reply, If I am, my apology. If I am not, let us hear how you deal with with these SOB's in the US. I do not lay down and get footprints on my face, if that is what you advocate, good for you.


With an attitude like that, I can't imagine why any sane company would want to deal with a union. Hello, China...


I would like to invite you back in 20 years to hear how you make out with your attitude. The only problem is that even if I lived that long, I and probably everyone else will not be able to afford anything, like a computer. The US with a crop of future brilliant business leaders like we have now, will be a third rate nation. I do fear for our nation when I read some of this bull on here. Hello China indeed, a nation who will destroy us if they get the chance. Brilliant, brilliant.
 
Okie
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:13 am

Just looked at UAW website and they have dropped from 1.5 million members to about 500,000 in about 7 years.
GM dropped from 400,000 to about 105,000 before bankruptcy, with complaints about all the imports.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
That is so naive, it is almost laughable. It was an enrichment scheme by the corporations, with the help of our own congress. Dump all responsibility, dump employees, exploit people in other countries. It has worked well, until now. Greed has taken over, look at how well we are doing here now. We let cheap labor flow in, while the jobs flowed out. What a masterful plan, look at the end result. Of course if one is one of the exploiters, all is well, and that is all that matters. Pathetic



Oh my, you make my case.

Okie
 
BMI727
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:18 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 16):
Hello China indeed, a nation who will destroy us if they get the chance. Brilliant, brilliant.

There's always India.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:19 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
If you believe its the former, than here is quite clearly a good reason why business is leaving America and union membership continues to decline. To be employed and earning a few dollars is benefit given by a company that hires you not a god given right to have.

That is so lame. You trade your labor for money, not rocket science. I think the God given words are getting old. Ask Carly Fiorina. Is she retired now?
 
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WarRI1
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:23 am

Quoting okie (Reply 17):
Oh my, you make my case.
Quoting okie (Reply 17):
Just looked at UAW website and they have dropped from 1.5 million members to about 500,000 in about 7 years.
GM dropped from 400,000 to about 105,000 before bankruptcy, with complaints about all the imports.
Quoting okie (Reply 17):
Oh my, you make my case.

I stand amazed that some one would gloat about the loss of jobs in our once proud country with once the best economy in the world. Once the land of opportunity. Sad and pathetic.
 
BMI727
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:29 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 19):
You trade your labor for money, not rocket science.

And if I find someone willing to trade the same quality labor for less money, I go with them instead. Again, not rocket science. In many cases, American workers have become simply too expensive for what it provides. The work often isn't of appreciably higher quality and often they don't have skills that can't be found elsewhere for less cost.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:30 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 16): Hello China indeed, a nation who will destroy us if they get the chance. Brilliant, brilliant.
There's always India.

Another brilliant answer to our problems, why did I not think of that? There are hundreds of countries, let us enrich them all. That does leave the problems of who in the US will be able buy the products. Is not gasoline now nearing 5 bucks, that goes so well with 2 bucks an hour jobs at a sweat shop. Brilliant. same reply toyour last post, brilliant.

[Edited 2011-04-22 20:32:08]
 
Okie
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:41 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 20):
I stand amazed that some one would gloat about the loss of jobs in our once proud country with once the best economy in the world. Once the land of opportunity. Sad and pathetic.


Quite the contrary, I find it amazing that the unions pushed the jobs off shore, then continue to have a massive fail after taking themselves out of the market and try to claim someone else is responsible.
My friend worked in a union shop for several years, they sold the company threw out the union, put him out of work replaced about 250 jobs with illegals. All the money he had been investing in the union retirement fund seems to have disappeared.

Okie
 
BMI727
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:44 am

Quoting okie (Reply 23):
I find it amazing that the unions pushed the jobs off shore, then continue to have a massive fail after taking themselves out of the market and try to claim someone else is responsible.

Precisely. The unions unwillingness to be competitive is causing their downfall. Perhaps if they can shed their sense of entitlement long enough to actually compete they might not lose jobs.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:51 am

Quoting okie (Reply 23):
Quite the contrary, I find it amazing that the unions pushed the jobs off shore, then continue to have a massive fail after taking themselves out of the market and try to claim someone else is responsible.
My friend worked in a union shop for several years, they sold the company threw out the union, put him out of work replaced about 250 jobs with illegals. All the money he had been investing in the union retirement fund seems to have disappeared.

You said the words, they cannot be taken back. You were gloating about the loss of jobs because they are union. I find that inexcusable. I never advocate any American losing their jobs, management, non-mangement, union, non-union. I am an American first, a union man second. I am going up to read, do your best, I will be back tomorrow night
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:13 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 20):
Sad and pathetic.

Yes its sad and pathetic, however unions were very much a large party to American business loosing its competitiveness.

Instead of chasing its own pocket book fattening agenda to the detriment of business and industries, unions should have figured out a way to align its interest with that of ensuring a healthy and competitive US companies on a global market place.

But at the end of the day, its the companies that have the last laugh at the expensive of union members as they move jobs out the door either view technology and efficiency gains, or wholesale outsourcing of positions to more competitive regions.
 
BMI727
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:36 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 16):
I would like to invite you back in 20 years to hear how you make out with your attitude.

I have little interest in leading the country, it doesn't pay that well. Manipulating those who do sounds like a better idea.

But, you seem fairly keen on playing the age and generation card, so I will too:

You're a dinosaur. The world has passed you by. You are like an old man sitting on his stoop yelling at the Chinese and Indians to get off your lawn but they ignore you because they are too busy producing and moving up in the world. Things have changed and the world you talk about no longer exists. We no longer compete with the people on the next street, or the next town, or the next state. We now compete with people on the next continent. And we sell to them too.

I suppose you could continue to long for times gone by in between rounds of bingo, but what would that accomplish? Maybe you could even get some legislation to insulate America from the changes around the world to put on some collective national earmuffs to allow us to remain complacent for a little longer. We could keep on patting ourselves on the back and telling ourselves that American products are the best no matter what. Maybe we could go out of our way to "buy American" but that would really be no better than giving money to an addict so they can buy more crack.

Or, we could compete and rise to the challenge of finding ways to do things faster, smarter, and more efficiently than ever before. Or even find entirely new things to do. Germans have jobs and aren't earning slave wages either. Maybe we should set to work building a car when someone takes our horse.

Frankly I find your lack of confidence in the future insulting to me and every member of my generation. There are plenty of capable people in America, and oddly enough, most of them aren't afraid of the change you believe will be their downfall. Heck, the last generation pissed away years being hippies and still managed to invent and exploit the internet. So instead of dreading the future I think you should embrace and exploit it. I hope you live another twenty years too. And I hope that when you do you'll find enough time away from shooting up insulin with Wilford Brimley and watching reruns of Matlock to see that we aren't all idiots, we don't need to be protected from hoards of Asians and the future isn't that bad after all.
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:30 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
I hear so much blather on here about evil unions, that it makes me wonder, who remained loyal to the idea of unions and who may have turned anti-union after benefitting from them?

WarRI1;
I don't think I'm going to have sufficient time to address this complex subject properly, but I will say a few things, because I probably have had more experience ( in number of years ) in "industry" and unions than just about anyone on else this forum.

First, most people see unions as either "good" or "bad"; it is not nearly that simple. There ARE good unions, and there ARE bad unions. I guess I should "start from the beginning"...................

I graduated from high school in 1950; worked in a steel mill for a time, went to an airplane maker, (Aeronca) for a while, served part of an apprenticeship in the sheetmetal workers, and finally ran into a HS class mate who was driving a truck;
his "tales" of going to the "east coast", Chicago, etc. sounded pretty good to a 20 something year old, so I decided to get a job driving a truck ! First few "jobs" were non-union, ( and almost "non-paying" ), so I figured out pretty quickly, If I'm doing something and not making much money, and another guy is doing the same thing, and is making a lot more money, then I need to be doing what he's doing !

It's not that easy to "get started" in union trucking, but I managed, somehow. ( Still single at this point ) Let me point out something about trucking companies: they all SUCK ! Why do I say this ? Simple......you, (the driver) are a piece of "excrement"; ( I'm trying not to use any "coarse" language here ) ( I'm referring right now to motor freight carriers ) If I were to relate a few examples of some of the things trucking companies try to "pull" on drivers, no one would believe me! It's beyond bizarre; anyway, I finally got a steady job with a big, well known company, and the money was great; ( when I got to work, that is ) (which was sometimes "not often enough to earn a living") See, at a union job, everything, (and I do mean EVERYTHING), goes by seniority; (which is good, up to a point); by this time I had been in the Teamsters Union a year or two. I got a job driving for Yellow Transit; ( which in later years became Yellow Freight ); anyway, I was "domociled" at Cincinnati, Ohio. We had three "runs" out of Cincinnati at the time; Cti to Detroit, take a "break", and back to Cti. ( two days work ) another run was the same thing to St.Louis, only it's 100 mile farther both ways, so it pays more; the third run was Cti to Mattoon, Ill. ( 250 mi. app) and return to Cti.

So, I get this "trip" to Mattoon; ( about a 7 or 8 hr trip "back then"; ( the interstate highways have not yet been built )
I get to Mattoon, I'm "checking in", the dispatcher at Mattoon is a ( hard to think of a word to describe this guy ); anyway, he tells me some ridiculous thing, ( I don't even remember anymore ), but it's CLEARLY against the "contract", so I says, "you're crazy" ! (which he clearly was), and he says, "and you're fired" ! So I said, "no problemo, just get me a taxi to the Greyhound Bus Station" ! He says, "get your own damned taxi" or something like that. I called a cab, the cab came, I explained to the cab driver. "Yellow Transit is paying for this ride; you'll have to come back and "collect from them"; he takes me to the bus bus station; the "collect from them" strategy failed here, so I had to pay cash for the bus.
( and get a receipt )

It's about a 6 hour ride back to Cti on the bus; I really "enjoyed" that bus ride ! ( I'm getting PAID my usual hourly or mileage rate, forget which); I "zonked out" on the bus, get a fair night's sleep, arrive back in Cti about an hour before the union hall opens, eat some eggs, call the "hall", my "BA" (business agent) explodes, curses, calls my terminal. and "screams into the phone"......."call the GD bus station, get this damned guy back on the bus to Mattoon, ( I'm still on he clock), the terminal does, and I'm on my way back to Mattoon ! (still getting paid); get back to Mattoon, the "crazy guy" is just coming back to work, sees me, fires me yet AGAIN, and the whole scenario all over again, back to CTI (still on the clock") This time the "BA" says.....stay right there; I'll pick you up in 5 minutes; he picks me up, and heads to the Yellow Transit terminal; storms into the terminal manager's office, ( a guy named Bernie Oyster ), ORDERS they transport me back to the bus, "and THIS TIME" if he comes back on a damned bus, I'm pulling your damned doors down! ( In the 50's they really could do this! ) Then he says, when this guy gets back to Mattoon this time, he's already driven 250 miles, and rode a bus 1000 miles, so he goes to the hotel for 12 hours, and if that "dork" on roller skates fires him again, I'll get Mattoon's doors pulled down too. After that, everything worked smoothly, I took a "break" and got a trip back to Cti. ( and made a ton of money, mostly while riding a bus )

As far as I know, I'm the only driver in Yellow Transit history to ever make one trip by truck, and four by bus, non-stop, between Cincinnati, Ohio and Mattoon, Ill. ( See why I say trucking companies are crazy? )

Do you think I was "glad" I was a "Teamster" at the time ? You betcha I was ! Real glad ! But that's just the "good part" of being a union member; I forget what the "dues" were back then, ( lot less than now, for sure ); but there were thousands and thousands of dues-paying members then; where do you suppose all that "cash" was going to ? (Remember, this is all back in the late 50's, and / or early 60's.) Ever been to Las Vegas ? (Most if not all of the hotels and casinos from that "era" have been torn down and replaced with the ones that are there now, but back then, MANY, if not MOST of the hotels and casinos in Vegas were paid for with "funds" which were directly STOLEN right out of MY damned Teamster's Pension Fund ! How is this possible you ask ? It's very simple; the union at that time was completely controlled by "The Mob"; Our pension fund was their "slush fund" for many years; finally, all that "changed"; a lot of guys went to the "slammer", and a few just....."disappeared" ! ( Think, "Jimmy Hoffa" )

And that's the "not-so-good part of being a union member. Everything up til now in this post happened "a while back";
I continued on driving a freight truck till 1972, at which point I started transporting new automobiles, to all 48 states, finally retiring in 1997; 41 years of dues paid in, and retired with a 30 year pension, which was "great" in 1997, but had I "stayed in" 18 more months, it would have been $ 500 a month "greater". ( And I may have ended up in a hole in the ground ! ) It was a very "tough" 41 years ! Would I "recommend" it as a "career" to another 20-something young guy ?
Here's a "tip"; I have 5 "offspring"; the oldest, a daughter, is a career pianist and teacher, #2 son has a "BS" in Electrical Engineering, and is the only non-PHD in a group of 38, and has been receiving paychecks with "USN" on them for over 20 years now. #3 daughter spent 5 years earning a teaching degree, then a grad. degree in linguistics, thinking to become a missionary/ teacher, only to marry, raise (and home-school) the two best children any grandfather could ever dream of; #4 son is Geologist and does consulting work in sunny California; ( he's a great young man, but I think he voted for Obama ) #5 daughter had a tough time for a long time, but she has a secure job with the County, and her kids are both over 21. ( She's married to a "career liar", but he's still a pretty decent guy )

If any young person happens to read this, ( and is even "contemplating" a career in commercial trucking), here's some advice..........make an apt. with a "shrink", get your head examined, then go to college ( preferably one with no "liberal" profs ), get some kind of an education, then try to do something "worthwhile".

But I'm supposed to be talking about unions here; Unions are like everything else in life; some good, some bad, some terrible. The rule of thumb is, if a union is run by crooks, it's BAD! ! If it's run by "wackos", ( think "Teacher's Union".........it's "terrible" ! (That's even worse than "bad" ! ) As long as we are sitting around and arguing politics, religion, etc. etc. we are accomplishing "ZERO". All things that "go bad" have "root causes"; I'll name a few of the root causes; Dishonest people; selfish, self interested people; greedy people who have no principles; people who routinely lie, cheat and steal; people who want to "live the good life", but want other people to pay for it; people who spend their whole life watching FOOLS acting like fools on TV and in movies, and think they are "cool" because they have a lot of money; I could go on and on, but I think you can get my drift; the reason the country, (and the world) is so "screwed up" is because we have 300 million people screaming and yelling and pointing their fingers at each other, all trying to "blame the other side", all the while wasting their energy, and accomplishing nothing !

If I can ever think of a solution for all of this, I'll start another thread. ("Long Live Airliners.net !)

And thank you for listening;

Charley
 
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WarRI1
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:24 pm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 28):
But I'm supposed to be talking about unions here; Unions are like everything else in life; some good, some bad, some terrible. The rule of thumb is, if a union is run by crooks, it's BAD! ! If it's run by "wackos", ( think "Teacher's Union".........it's "terrible" ! (That's even worse than "bad" ! ) As long as we are sitting around and arguing politics, religion, etc. etc. we are accomplishing "ZERO". All things that "go bad" have "root causes"; I'll name a few of the root causes; Dishonest people; selfish, self interested people; greedy people who have no principles; people who routinely lie, cheat and steal; people who want to "live the good life", but want other people to pay for it; people who spend their whole life watching FOOLS acting like fools on TV and in movies, and think they are "cool" because they have a lot of money; I could go on and on, but I think you can get my drift; the reason the country, (and the world) is so "screwed up" is because we have 300 million people screaming and yelling and pointing their fingers at each other, all trying to "blame the other side", all the while wasting their energy, and accomplishing nothing !

I bow to your Union senority and I can see wisdom in your words. I can tell the difference from someone who has worked for a living. A hard living. The school of hard knocks as they say. I have driven truck across country while on strike, hauling beer, Miller and Bud, not fun to me. You are correct, good and bad in everything, everybody. Greed and corruption Union, non-union, including management, Doctors, Lawyers, Indian Chiefs. I might add Politicians also, how could I not? I love the paint brush from some who would not know a hard days work, if it hit them in the ass, but condemn, condemn. I wish you more years of retirement, good job with your family, who were raised on union wages. I was tought to respect my elders, and Union Senority unlike some on here.    
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:19 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
Frankly I find your lack of confidence in the future insulting to me and every member of my generation. There are plenty of capable people in America, and oddly enough, most of them aren't afraid of the change you believe will be their downfall. Heck, the last generation pissed away years being hippies and still managed to invent and exploit the internet. So instead of dreading the future I think you should embrace and exploit it. I hope you live another twenty years too. And I hope that when you do you'll find enough time away from shooting up insulin with Wilford Brimley and watching reruns of Matlock to see that we aren't all idiots, we don't need to be protected from hoards of Asians and the future isn't that bad after all.

All I can say is that for most, age usually brings experiance, some wisdom, wisdom shows maturity, words show intelligence, so my advice is, watch your words. I am not impressed.
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:56 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 29):
I was tought to respect my elders, and Union Senority unlike some on here.

Workers should be promoted and respected for one reason: being good at their jobs and bringing value to their employers. Merit is the measuring stick that should be used, not seniority. If you want to see American workers be more competitive, perhaps a good place to start would be raising the bar a little higher than simply showing up to work and not getting fired.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 30):
All I can say is that for most, age usually brings experiance, some wisdom

Sometimes experience does bring skill and wisdom. But sometimes it brings denial, complacency, and a false sense of entitlement instead.

The old union model is dying, and it's dying for a reason. It isn't competitive anymore. If you think that a television assembled in China or Japan is inherently not as good as one assembled in America, you are going to have a rude awakening. Things have to change, and America has to become more competitive. But, if you're any indication, it seems that unions and their leaders will simply be satisfied with smugly complaining about the kids with music high and pants low all the way to their end. Just try not to take any good people or good companies down with you.
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:26 am

Quoting dl021 (Reply 3):
Safety and manageable hours are a couple of areas where unions continue to provide service to it's members,

You know, I really hate that unions think they have somehow cornered the market on this one. When I worked at a Union shop (the last time anyway...) I was "encouraged" shall we say, by MY SHOP STEWARD to not report safety violations, as A. this would put our station mgr in a position where he may have to send people home. We'd have still been paid for time, but it would hurt our chances for OT later in the week, of course... and B. If violations are found later, instead of right away, it's something to beat the company with at negotiation time.

I have never once met or worked with a modern union that cares about worker safety for anything other than purely manipulative reasons.

I have, however, as a station mgr, myself, sent workers home early (paid, of course) when a safety issue (that I couldn't immediately rest) has come up. All claims that Unions look out for your safety are utter garbage. It's what we have OSHA for instead. At least they won't charge you a monthly due!

Unions should be called what they are: Collective Bargaining Enterprises. All other purposes they once had have been superceded by the gov't anyway...

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):

Workers should be promoted and respected for one reason: being good at their jobs and bringing value to their employers. Merit is the measuring stick that should be used,

Totally disagree. I've been promoted both for merit and seniority, and promoted people for the same reasons at different times in my life. And the huge glaring issue that no one the corporate/mgmt side wants to own up to is that Merit promotions are entirely subjective. Case in point: I can be a likeable guy, and I know when reviews come out. By some strange coincidence, I've not only never been so much as written up (and I've made some mistakes here and there...), but I now make a damned lot of money, especially compared to three years ago, at my last union gig.

Obviously, I have no personal problem with that, but I would be liar if I told you I thought that was fair...


As far as influence goes, both my parents were unionized gov't employees. Why the FDA & CRS would ever need a union is beyond me, but like myself, they were smart enough to see the advantage of better pay for less work. They didn't like the dues, but likely wouldn't have changed to a non-union set-up given the choice.

My Dad knows a little better now, as he is retired and working in the private sector for about half the hours and twice the money.. The thing that a lot of people don't understand, is that some level of seniority is indeed transferable, ad "experience" time, even in the private sector. But I suppose knowing where, when and how to look for all that really helps...
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:30 am

My father was union he was in the operating engineers. But I was not brought up talking about unions..Even though he was union I never had any real exposure to unions until I got hired by NWA in 1988. I have to say my first exposure was not really a good one either. I came to understand that while the IAM in my opinion was a weak company lap dog union. The railway labor act severely ties the hands of airline unions. Then we sought out a mechanics independent union AMFA which had its own baggage and was too militant for NW who then spent millions to break that union and put me out of a almost 20 year career. But in my new non union job I make more than I ever did. How is that you say? I will tell you as much as I detest the current airline unions that are out there to choose from I know the salary I make is a direct result of the efforts that we made at NWA under AMFA and that non-union airlines/companies pay that wage to keep the unions out. So say what you want but unions keep things in check even if membership is dwindling. Do I want to belong to a union? Depends on the union. I like riding the coattails of unions and not having to pay dues for once in my life. But do I wish the unions to go away?...Not a chance.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:26 am

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 33):
I will tell you as much as I detest the current airline unions that are out there to choose from I know the salary I make is a direct result of the efforts that we made at NWA under AMFA and that non-union airlines/companies pay that wage to keep the unions out. So say what you want but unions keep things in check even if membership is dwindling. Do I want to belong to a union? Depends on the union. I like riding the coattails of unions and not having to pay dues for once in my life. But do I wish the unions to go away?...Not a chance.

Bingo! A realistic view of someone who knows and has been there. Wait until the unions are no more as so fervently wished for. (None of us will be alive of course, not even the younger folks before this could possibly happen.) I wonder has anyone who has not drunk the Kool Ade ever read about labor history, and how terrible it was and how quickly it is returning to those condiditions in the diminishing workplaces of America. Of course, just like a drunk, those who have self administered the Kool Ade treatment, see no evil, hear no evil. It is funny what ambition and greed will do to ones judgement of what is right and what is wrong. A new model for the workforce of America, modeled on the Stepford Wives Movie. Management as the husbands, guess who plays the part of the wives?

[Edited 2011-04-24 19:30:25]
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:04 am

You know, I had a very well written post on what my parents did, what I do, and my views on unions as influenced by my parents.

After reading this garbage, I deleted it:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
I put this question on in a loaded manner, intentionally. I wanted to see, who had the courage to reply. I would have bet my shirt that the most vociferous anti-union folks would not respond. I was not disappointed.

You waited 24 hours, got 6 responses, and claim a "victory"? Some of us have real lives with real jobs and real families, ya know.

You admit, nay, brag about starting this thread to incite a flame-fest by trashing and demeaning anyone who's not as ferociously pro-union and anti-corporate as yourself.

Disgusting.
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:22 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 35):
You know, I had a very well written post on what my parents did, what I do, and my views on unions as influenced by my parents.

After reading this garbage, I deleted it:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):I put this question on in a loaded manner, intentionally. I wanted to see, who had the courage to reply. I would have bet my shirt that the most vociferous anti-union folks would not respond. I was not disappointed.
You waited 24 hours, got 6 responses, and claim a "victory"? Some of us have real lives with real jobs and real families, ya know.

You admit, nay, brag about starting this thread to incite a flame-fest by trashing and demeaning anyone who's not as ferociously pro-union and anti-corporate as yourself.

Disgusting.

I sure do not see a victory claim, would you please show me. I can always admit when I am wrong, have many times. I stated what my intention was, after 6 responses. I have noticed some of the most whatever, have no ability to discuss rationally. There is advice that I have offered before, if one does not like what I say, do not read it. Put a red flag up when you see my name, simple. I have been under the impression that we have freedom of speech here. I exercise it. I really am glad that you have a job and a family, although I do not see your point on that one.
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:42 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 35):
You waited 24 hours, got 6 responses, and claim a "victory"? Some of us have real lives with real jobs and real families, ya know.

You admit, nay, brag about starting this thread to incite a flame-fest by trashing and demeaning anyone who's not as ferociously pro-union and anti-corporate as yourself.

Disgusting.

Please? Show us the post from your parents. Even though i was union at one time I welcome and like to see all views. I now am non-union and see benefits there too. Please share....
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:30 pm

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 37):
Please? Show us the post from your parents. Even though i was union at one time I welcome and like to see all views. I now am non-union and see benefits there too. Please share....

Unfortunately, this proves a point, no comeback, no rationality, a quick attack, then nothing. Too bad, I would have enjoyed reading anything to do with this subject. Two sides of a discussion is better than one, as you have said.
 
mirrodie
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:58 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
They learned well, they have not turned their backs on the union people and wages that fed them, educated them. I admire that.

Raised by parents who worked in federal and union jobs. Even worked in the union for a few years.

My intuition back then was go into the private sector. I looked at the bennies then and predicted much of what is going on now, so I opted out.

While your perception is one of turning backs, perhaps you should consider that the progeny of those union parents predicted the evolution of unions to be less than optimal for their needs.

In a nutshell, while working the union, I felt it was too good to be true. I asked myself where the benefits and $$ was coming from.
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:19 am

Quoting mirrodie (Reply 39):
Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter): They learned well, they have not turned their backs on the union people and wages that fed them, educated them. I admire that.

Raised by parents who worked in federal and union jobs. Even worked in the union for a few years.

My intuition back then was go into the private sector. I looked at the bennies then and predicted much of what is going on now, so I opted out.

While your perception is one of turning backs, perhaps you should consider that the progeny of those union parents predicted the evolution of unions to be less than optimal for their needs.

In a nutshell, while working the union, I felt it was too good to be true. I asked myself where the benefits and $$ was coming from.

I appreciate your well thought out reply and viewpoint. I was and still am, curious how or why one is a union supporter, or not.? The rabid anti-union views on here, made me wonder, how one could form such uncalled for hatred of unions as expressed on here, if one was brought up in a union household. I still feel that if one is, one should have some consideration of the family member who is a union person. I cannot imagine anyone who loves and respects someone, such as your Father, and family members who are union, for example, would dare to spout this anti-union hatred that is spewed on here to their Father's, Mother's, Sister's, or Brother's face. I know my family would not think of it. Discussion is one thing, a different opinion is one thing, this mindless hatred is quite another. If one does not do such a thing to their family, but does on here, that is just a mite cowardly and hypocritical. This is my opinion and was the basis of my thread.
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:48 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
I appreciate your well thought out reply and viewpoint.

Thanks. And honestly, I don't think my view is anti/pro union as much as it is...... anti- abuse.

For instance, in our practice, we see patients on medicaid. I used to think Medicaid was for impoverished families. Yet, there are almost routine instances where I see such people on iPhones and Blackberries or driving Mercedes. That is abuse, pure abuse.

As far as unions go, honestly, we work with them and usually have no problems. I do find that some union members really extrapolate the extent of their entitlements. They abuse their OWN system. In some cases, its committing insurance fraud and we don't condone that. They tell us that other offices do it and we kindly ask them to continue there if that is the case.

The impression I get is that once in a union, the member feels they are owed more and more entitlements. Perhaps these members have never run businesses, have never had a course in accounting or frankly, don't give a damn, but these things come with a cost. The members do not seem to care the cost or who pays for it, but only that they are in a union and thus entitled.

On the other side of the spectrum, business owners know the value of money. They know what things cost.
Unfortunately, if you are in a union and never a biz owner or vice versa, one is more likely to have staunch views without a real understanding of the geshalt of the situation.

Unions have evolved from their primary role. It was "for the people", years ago. Now, in some cases, it appears their issues are cause for riots.


Does that make sense?

Anyway,

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
how one could form such uncalled for hatred of unions as expressed on here, if one was brought up in a union household.

I honestly haven't had these heated convs with my parents. Truth is, we differ on religion and politics but I'd rather not get into it with them. Iv'e got a few kids. I get such joy being with my family and watching the generations co-mingle than to talk of that type of stuff with family.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
one should have some consideration
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
ould dare to spout this anti-union hatred that is spewed on here

Well that points to 2 broader issues: is the moderation of topics on this site too lax or to lenient? (be prepared for a similarly volatile debate ;P) and...

as well as anonymity of the internet...
 
Maverick623
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:31 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
The rabid anti-union views on here

My views certainly aren't "rabidly" anti-union. But you don't even care about that, by not even bothering to give people a chance to post an answer to your question, even if the question wasn't in good faith. You just want to start yet another flame-fest, and now you've got one. Congrats.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
I cannot imagine anyone who loves and respects someone, such as your Father, and family members who are union, for example, would dare to spout this anti-union hatred that is spewed on here to their Father's, Mother's, Sister's, or Brother's face.

Works both ways, dude. Imagine if your father, brother, mother, or sister were a high-ranking executive at a corporation. I simply cannot believe you would say half the crap you do about how corporations are evil and the God-like unions should save us little people from them.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
a different opinion is one thing

Being nonsupportive of unions (as they operate today, which is my view) IS a different opinion! It has nothing to do with insulting or turning my back on anyone! Frankly, you disgust me when you try to pit family against each other for disagreeing with your rabidly pro-union and anti-corporate views.


If you want a decent discussion, don't intentionally and admittedly load the questions and have preconceived notions about the responses you're gonna get.
 
Kent350787
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:12 pm

I grew up in a non-union household - unions, and the Labor Party, were seen as communists and, as communists were godless, they found no favour with my mother.

So I became a communist....  

I didn't join a union at first as they were reactionary rather than revolutionary. Then I realised that unions ought to be there to help members, and joined a union which did.

My biggest problem with my union is the lack of ability amongst its elected leadership, which is also having an impact on the quality of paid staff. As an employer representative as well as a union member, I see both sides of the fence.
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:56 am

Quoting mirrodie (Reply 41):
I get such joy being with my family and watching the generations co-mingle than to talk of that type of stuff with family

Wise decision, especially Religion.

Quoting mirrodie (Reply 41):
as well as anonymity of the internet...

That is a big problem, I certainly enjoy discussing face to face any issues, including union, labor. I do that most everyday at the coffee shop, including Religion, politics. I do get a sense of hiding as you say, another good point, and one which I feel made me put this thread on
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:06 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 42):
Works both ways, dude. Imagine if your father, brother, mother, or sister were a high-ranking executive at a corporation. I simply cannot believe you would say half the crap you do about how corporations are evil and the God-like unions should save us little people from them.

You are entirely incorrect, do you think my world does not include management friends family, lawyers, painters carpenters, contractors? I would and do speak of all these issues with these people. I say again, never have I heard such radical anti-union bull as is spoken on here. Read my reply below about Internet Anonymity. People use it, I do not. I am not a hypocrite, and if I am caught being one, I will apologize immediately. That is a principle with me, that I try never to violate.

I will answer the trying to pit family members against one other statement. As far as I know, I am only speaking to ANet members, who read these threads, reply to these threads, not your family. I started the thread with the (possible) scenario of a family, with both union,and non-union members. I was interested in the respect for those family members who are union, by those family members who were not, or vice versa. The point, how can one discuss rationally, union,non-union points, when there is no rationality as sometimes shown on here? Evil, dirty, thugs, bums etc. If I was a Father of a union-hater, fine. I can accept that, but if my son spoke to me using the language used on here about unions, which is often, if I raised him, fed him. educated him the best way I could, and did so on my union earnings, and after all that, and he showed me the disrespect as voiced on here about unions, we would have a serious family problem, relationship. Simple as that. My family, not yours.

[Edited 2011-04-27 18:48:36]
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:14 am

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 43):
grew up in a non-union household - unions, and the Labor Party, were seen as communists and, as communists were godless, they found no favour with my mother.

So I became a communist....

I didn't join a union at first as they were reactionary rather than revolutionary. Then I realised that unions ought to be there to help members, and joined a union which did.

My biggest problem with my union is the lack of ability amongst its elected leadership, which is also having an impact on the quality of paid staff. As an employer representative as well as a union member, I see both sides of the fence.

I appreciate you views, I agree, there is always two sides to every issue. It is good to not read radical anti-union bull every once in awhile. The lack of ability is a problem, especially when you are dealing with sharp lawyers, business school graduates, etc. I said before, we had to turn to lawyers to survive., we local guys were not up to the task either. We had to go to an International Union, and lawyers
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:16 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 45):
People use it, I do not. I am not a hypocrite, and if I am caught being one, I will apologize immediately.

Better prepare that apology:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 45):
I was interested in the respect for those family members who are union, by those family members who were not, or vice versa.
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
I put this question on in a loaded manner, intentionally. I wanted to see, who had the courage to reply. I would have bet my shirt that the most vociferous anti-union folks would not respond. I was not disappointed.

You said yourself: you baited people into starting a union flame fest. And when even the truly rabid anti-union folks didn't respond, you STILL flamed them for it! I've been banned for lesser infractions!

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 46):
radical anti-union

With as often as you use that phrase, I wonder if you think there's such a thing as a normal anti-union person.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:03 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 47):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 45):People use it, I do not. I am not a hypocrite, and if I am caught being one, I will apologize immediately.


Better prepare that apology:



Baloney.



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 45):I was interested in the respect for those family members who are union, by those family members who were not, or vice versa.



Part of my answer to your accusation of pitting family members against one another



Go back to the original thread. I posed a question. Def. Loaded question." It contains a controversial assumption of guilt"


I did assume people were guilty of what I wrote, I said so.



You said yourself: you baited people into starting a union flame fest. And when even the truly rabid anti-union folks didn't respond, you STILL flamed them for it! I've been banned for lesser infractions




I hardly think that I flamed anyone, I expressed what I had assumed, that those most guilty would not answer, was I wrong? After all, I only had 6 replies at that point. Not exactly an avalanche of replies, which you went out of your way to show. We are slightly past 6 now.


Baloney, find the word bait. Baited, bait Def. Tease, to persecute or exasperate with unjust, malicious, or persistant attacks, harrass.



Below is my reply to the question of a weighted question.

[quote=WarRI1,reply=8]would like to thank all who responded, union supporters, or not. I put this question on in a loaded manner, intentionally. I wanted to see, who had the courage to reply. I would have bet my shirt that the most vociferous anti-union folks would not respond. I was not disappointed. Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 2):Your opening questions are kind of weighted and I doubt if you’ll see too many admissions here from people who have bitten the hand that feeds them! Exactly Sir, the hand that feeds them, well said. We know they are out there, good luck to them.Quoting PPVRA (Reply 5):Define "supported by union wages". The company pays worker's wages. You Sir, do not disappoint either, you defend what you believe, just as I do. I give you credit for that. The company pays for LABOR, union or non. they do not give anything for free, union people, non-union people work for their wages. The workers owe the corporation nothing, labor for money, you do understand that concept, I hope? Union wages, are union, negotiated wages, not gifts from the almighty corporation that you seem to worship. I do not see your point, you are incorrect when you try to separate, and denigrate those who have the courage to work, or join a union in this greedy corporate world.
 
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RE: A Question Concerning Union Influence On Members

Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:32 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
Workers should be promoted and respected for one reason: being good at their jobs and bringing value to their employers. Merit is the measuring stick that should be used, not seniority. If you want to see American workers be more competitive, perhaps a good place to start would be raising the bar a little higher than simply showing up to work and not getting fired.

That is the one reason that the school districts are in the situation they are. High paying senority teachers who do the minimum and want the maximum.

Quoting mirrodie (Reply 41):
The impression I get is that once in a union, the member feels they are owed more and more entitlements. Perhaps these members have never run businesses, have never had a course in accounting or frankly, don't give a damn, but these things come with a cost. The members do not seem to care the cost or who pays for it, but only that they are in a union and thus entitled.

On the other side of the spectrum, business owners know the value of money. They know what things cost.
Unfortunately, if you are in a union and never a biz owner or vice versa, one is more likely to have staunch views without a real understanding of the geshalt of the situation.

Unions have evolved from their primary role. It was "for the people", years ago. Now, in some cases, it appears their issues are cause for riots.

It is that sense of entitlement is what rubs people the wrong way.

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