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TheCommodore
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Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:58 am

Ex PM Howard has been vindicated.

His tough attitude towards gun ownership in Australia in 1996 has been a great success.   

Research conducted by Harvard University, reviewed that, ''The National Firearms Agreement seems to have been incredibly successful in terms of lives saved.''

And..

As the Harvard researchers remark, ''from the perspective of 1996, it would have been difficult to imagine more compelling future evidence of a beneficial effect of the law.''

Now this comes not any old Uni, but Harvard University, in one of the biggest gun owning countries in the world too, so they should have a good perspective as to what works and whats doesn't, when it comes to gun ownership and crime.

That's what I call a good law, one that has a really positive effect for the entire community, not just some small vocal group, but everyone !   

I hope Howard get the pat on the back he deserves for this after all this time.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/societ...-20110427-1dwmx.html#ixzz1KnIsKhG7
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Mudboy
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:02 am

So, if one night a few guys break in your house and threatens to rape your wife and daughter, and kill everyone when they are finished, what does that report say your chances of survival are? Just curious?
 
Kent350787
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:07 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 1):
So, if one night a few guys break in your house and threatens to rape your wife and daughter, and kill everyone when they are finished, what does that report say your chances of survival are? Just curious?

But for the most part, they don't.

I aghree that this law appears to be good for this country, and it would be crazy to repeal it.

The USA appears willing to largely accept the legal and societal factors which drive its own high rates of gun crime. Clearly gun ownership is not the only factor in the US, when compared with countries with similar levels of gun ownership.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:07 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 1):
Just curious?

Ask the researchers at Harvard, they might have an idea ?

Until then, your just going to have to "Stay curious" aren't you.

[Edited 2011-04-27 23:09:22]
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DocLightning
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:09 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 1):
So, if one night a few guys break in your house and threatens to rape your wife and daughter, and kill everyone when they are finished, what does that report say your chances of survival are? Just curious?

Better than if he's armed. Because if he busts out a gun, a firefight ensues. If he busts out a can of pepperspray, game's over. Unless they somehow had the foresight to wear gas masks.

Also, he's more likely to shoot his daughter's 15yo suitor (which, as funny as it sounds, isn't so funny when you realized you just killed a teenager whose parents you are going to have to face) than he is an armed assailant.

What American pro-gun fanatics (and I use that term deliberately, since there is an entire class of thought in America that guns are the solution to almost every problem) love to ignore is the fact that we have the highest rate of gun-related deaths ANYWHERE in the world where there isn't a war being fought. And we are the only country with a 2nd amendment.

But, according to them, this is just coincidence. Because in the very unlikely circumstance that someone breaks into your house at night and happens to forget to be armed, but you are, you can fight him off.
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Mir
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:10 am

I'm generally pro-gun control, but I'd caution that the author of the article has a clear inherent bias (noted at the end of the article), and without seeing the Harvard report in full, drawing sweeping conclusions from it is probably a bad idea.

-Mir
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Mudboy
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:13 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 3):
Until then, your just going to have to "Stay curious" aren't you.

Until then, I will be as safe as I always am 
Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 2):
Clearly gun ownership is not the only factor in the US, when compared with countries with similar levels of gun ownership.

Not all us Americans are gun loving nuts, they just seem to be the necessary evil, helps us sleep better at night.
 
Springbok747
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:16 am

How do they explain the extremely low crime rates in high gun-ownership countries like Finland and Switzerland?

BTW... it is illegal to own, use and possess a handgun/rifle in Australia without a license to do so and has been the case long before John Howard and his National Firearms Agreement of 1996.

The media in Australia generally cannot differentiate between the illegal and legal use of firearms, especially handguns. The Australian Institute of Criminology (AIC) reports on firearm theft within Australia released in both May 2000 and April 2007 indicated that handguns were the least type of firearm stolen. So where then..are the criminals obtaining their illegal handguns from? Answer: from overseas. Fact: the availability of illegal handguns soared soon after the introduction of the 1996 National Firearm Agreement. The AIC has also reported on various occasions that the licensed firearm owner is not responsible for the use of firearms in homicide and crime.
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DocLightning
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:30 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 7):
How do they explain the extremely low crime rates in high gun-ownership countries like Finland and Switzerland?

What's the poverty rate there? What's the average education attained there?
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TheCommodore
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:42 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 7):
How do they explain the extremely low crime rates in high gun-ownership countries like Finland and Switzerland?

I haven't the faintest idea

This report is only about the "effects" of gun ownership and crime/murder here in Australia.

What happen overseas is anyone's business.

All we need to be concerned about is what's going on in OZ !
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NIKV69
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:06 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Better than if he's armed. Because if he busts out a gun, a firefight ensues. If he busts out a can of pepperspray, game's over. Unless they somehow had the foresight to wear gas masks.

Please tell me this is a joke. Please.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
What American pro-gun fanatics (and I use that term deliberately, since there is an entire class of thought in America that guns are the solution to almost every problem) love to ignore is the fact that we have the highest rate of gun-related deaths ANYWHERE in the world where there isn't a war being fought. And we are the only country with a 2nd amendment.

Yea that wouldn't have anything to do with drug and gangs now would it?

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):

I'm generally pro-gun control, but I'd caution that the author of the article has a clear inherent bias (noted at the end of the article), and without seeing the Harvard report in full, drawing sweeping conclusions from it is probably a bad idea

Not to mention what works in AUS is great but won't happen here. We have the right to bear arms and it will never be taken away.
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Maverick623
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:31 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 1):
So, if one night a few guys break in your house and threatens to rape your wife and daughter, and kill everyone when they are finished, what does that report say your chances of survival are? Just curious?

If I'm armed, they might get the word "rape" out before I start putting holes in them.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Also, he's more likely to shoot his daughter's 15yo suitor (which, as funny as it sounds, isn't so funny when you realized you just killed a teenager whose parents you are going to have to face)

Little punk shouldn't have been sneaking into my house then. Those kids need to realize there's nothing funny about that. I would hope that I'd know he was a threat to my or anyone else's life before taking a shot, but that's not a guarantee, especially in a small area such as her room.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
What American pro-gun fanatics (and I use that term deliberately, since there is an entire class of thought in America that guns are the solution to almost every problem)

I can assure you, I am not the "fanatic" you describe. A gun can be a great defensive tool, but they're obviously not the solution to everything... and they're not the solution to nothing, either.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
love to ignore is the fact that we have the highest rate of gun-related deaths ANYWHERE in the world where there isn't a war being fought.

I blame that mostly on gang and drug related violence. I will blame our high rate of accidental gun-related deaths on lax standards. I absolutely support, by Constitutional Amendment if necessary, a law that requires you go through the same firearms training police officers go through, even if the government has to pick up the tab.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Because in the very unlikely circumstance that someone breaks into your house at night and happens to forget to be armed

Been there, done that. It's not as unlikely as you think. Believe me when I say I was very lucky the guy was smaller than me, and had already lost his knife in a scuffle with the cops he was hiding from in my house.
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Kent350787
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:43 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
What's the poverty rate there? What's the average education attained there?

These and other things may help explain the much higher levels of gun related crime in the US per capita gun ownership, even compared to your northern cousins. I don't often see people trying to resolve the "guns don't kill people, Americans with guns kill people" conundrum.

I'm not actually convinced that our gun crime rates would have been dramatically different even without the 1996 changes (which I fully support) but it was an opportune time to reduce a clear risk factor.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:56 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):
If I'm armed, they might get the word "rape" out before I start putting holes in them.

Or before they start putting holes in you perhaps ?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):
I blame that mostly on gang and drug related violence.

Whatever, you blame it on is fine. It must be something American then, because its not that problem here.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 12):
but it was an opportune time to reduce a clear risk factor.

As far as I am concerned I don't care, it worked and continues to work.

[Edited 2011-04-28 03:17:07]
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weebie
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:01 am

The US doesn't have a legitimate Middle Class and this is the reason for High Gun Crime. Australians naturally are at Least 5-10 times Wealthier than your average American middle class citizen. There are still plenty of guns in Australia.

[Edited 2011-04-28 04:02:40]
 
NIKV69
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:20 pm

Quoting weebie (Reply 14):
The US doesn't have a legitimate Middle Class and this is the reason for High Gun Crime. Australians naturally are at Least 5-10 times Wealthier than your average American middle class citizen. There are still plenty of guns in Australia.

This is complete rubbish. The only reason your so called "middle class" is so wealthy is they aren't really middle class. Australians are grouped into 4 classes not 3 like in the US and the working class which is the true middle class but is not named that rather keeping the "working" title instead. Above them is what you call "middle" but is really professionals who rarely have manual labor type jobs who would be considered upper class in the US. So you have people making the salaries that really put them above the true working middle class being called "middle" This is why your so called "middle class" earners are making more than the USA's middle class.
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StarAC17
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:23 pm

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 1):
So, if one night a few guys break in your house and threatens to rape your wife and daughter, and kill everyone when they are finished, what does that report say your chances of survival are? Just curious?

This is a dark fantasy that comes up every time a gun control debate comes up to justify owning them. The reality is that an event like this is so rare that its not worth it in the first place. Also if you were to pull a gun on an assailant doing what you describe he is probably a psychopath and a typical homeowner would not shoot at will giving the assailant the chance to disarm you and turning the gun against you.

Also if it was simply a thief I would presume that you would have to prove in court of law that shooting him would be justified, and if the thief was unarmed I would presume the gun owner would be criminally liable.
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Mudboy
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:42 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 16):
Also if it was simply a thief I would presume that you would have to prove in court of law that shooting him would be justified, and if the thief was unarmed I would presume the gun owner would be criminally liable.

Read my lips:" I was in fear for my life, your honor"!

This is how it is with me, I am by no means a gun fanatic and laugh at those that are. I have been trained by the best to shoot, and and do so in a tactical environment, and have to qualify regularly on several weapons. I sleep with a loaded Glock 21 45cal within arms reach, I sleep with my bedroom door locked, if someone were to try to come into my house at night, I can not speak for most responsble gun owners, but in my house they will get lit up, and the only proof I have to state is :" I was in fear for my life, your honor"!

[Edited 2011-04-28 05:47:11]
 
baroque
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:47 pm

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 6):
Until then, I will be as safe as I always am

And the statistics show that this is a great deal less safe than you would be - unarmed - in a house in Australia. Them is the breaks.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:13 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
  Please tell me this is a joke. Please
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
  Yea that wouldn't have anything to do with drug and gangs now would it?
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
  We have the right to bear arms and it will never be taken away.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):
  Little punk shouldn't have been sneaking into my house
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):
It's not as unlikely as you think

That's right. Anybody who has lived in Atlanta for a while can tell you all about it.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 17):
I was in fear for my life, your honor"!

Amen brother!
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NIKV69
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:19 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 18):
And the statistics show that this is a great deal less safe than you would be - unarmed - in a house in Australia. Them is the breaks.

You realize how many factors are involved in this? Like you don't share a border with a nation in the middle of a bloody drug war? Have a total different demographic? No gangs? No drugs? Yep them is the breaks.

Like I said you don't like guns, we get it but our country is much different and will never be like yours. It is what it is but we will never change our gun laws to mirror yours. Or really care about it.
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AustrianZRH
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:24 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
Like I said you don't like guns, we get it but our country is much different and will never be like yours. It is what it is but we will never change our gun laws to mirror yours. Or really care about it.

But what is the problem with a little bit of control? Let's say, you have to show your record is clear of violent crimes to purchase a gun in the "regular" way, making it a little bit more complicated for the bad guys to get them.

I think every righteous person should be allowed to buy a gun. But Mr Redneck with several convictions of beating his wife being able to buy a Glock in the store down the road if she upsets him once more is what I'm opposing.
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Mudboy
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:36 pm

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 21):
But what is the problem with a little bit of control? Let's say, you have to show your record is clear of violent crimes to purchase a gun in the "regular" way, making it a little bit more complicated for the bad guys to get them.

I think every righteous person should be allowed to buy a gun. But Mr Redneck with several convictions of beating his wife being able to buy a Glock in the store down the road if she upsets him once more is what I'm opposing.

And believe it or not, there are those of us that agree with you on this! Not everyone that believes in the right to defend ourselves, throws a fit everytime something like this is brought up.
 
Mir
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:23 pm

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 21):
But Mr Redneck with several convictions of beating his wife being able to buy a Glock in the store down the road if she upsets him once more is what I'm opposing.

Or rather, at a gun show where they don't bother with background checks. That's a loophole that needs to be closed yesterday.

-Mir
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dl021
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:27 pm

Universities everywhere are full of self-serving professors and academicians who publish (as required for tenure) biased studies that support whatever opinion they started with.

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
I'm generally pro-gun control, but I'd caution that the author of the article has a clear inherent bias (noted at the end of the article), and without seeing the Harvard report in full, drawing sweeping conclusions from it is probably a bad idea.

As usual, even if I don't always agree with David, he's willing to look deeper than most folks at things, even when they're backing his POV. An attribute most of us could use more of.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 7):
How do they explain the extremely low crime rates in high gun-ownership countries like Finland and Switzerland?

Civilized behavior, and personal responsibility.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 7):
The media in Australia generally cannot differentiate between the illegal and legal use of firearms,

To be fair they can't do that in most countries. Neither can they tell the difference between fully automatic weapons and otherwise. Nor do they accept that the rate of use of illegally owned firearms continues to rise in nations that have the strictest gun control.

Australia is a society of law abiding citizens who value their civilization and society. They're willing to accept laws that they don't all agree with. But a critical difference we have here is that we acknowledge that rights are inherent, not granted by government, and we took the step of having a Constitution that spells our certain rights so that no one can pretend they don't exist, and additionally stipulates that all other rights are held by the people and protected.
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AustrianZRH
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:32 pm

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 22):
And believe it or not, there are those of us that agree with you on this!

I'll believe you right away there  .

Quoting Mir (Reply 23):
Or rather, at a gun show where they don't bother with background checks. That's a loophole that needs to be closed yesterday.

That's for sure. I actually once started a thread hoping to get infos how the "real life" gun situation in the US is. That deteriorated into the usual gun vs no-gun thread pretty fast, unfortunately. But I should have known better...

As I said, I'm actually pro-gun in a way that every law-abiding citizen should be able to get a gun without too much hassle, but also pro-gun control in a way that there should be background checks. However, looking at some earlier threads, there are some people - especially from the US, but of course not all pro-gun US citizens - who set up the equation

pro background check = pro gun control = anti gun = anti constitutional.
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:46 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 13):
Or before they start putting holes in you perhaps ?



What makes you think that the invader wouldn't put holes into me if I try to apprehend him bare handed or with doc's can of pepper spray? What makes you think that an invader would enter a home unarmed? Just because guns are illegal? Gimme a f-ing break!

I live in area that's considered very safe, however I still think that citizens should have the right to protect themselves (a right that's severely limited in many nanny states) and should have the right to procure the necessary tools to do so.
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dl021
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 25):
I'm actually pro-gun in a way that every law-abiding citizen should be able to get a gun without too much hassle, but also pro-gun control in a way that there should be background checks. However, looking at some earlier threads, there are some people - especially from the US, but of course not all pro-gun US citizens - who set up the equation

pro background check = pro gun control = anti gun = anti constitutional.

to be fair the issue in the US is often that a party who succeeds in getting a modicum of law passed is generally seeking much more, and what they accomplished is their first step. Camel's nose under the tent, so to speak.

It's well known that US gun control lobbyists seek "common sense" things that may be fine on their own, but are looking to expand these things immediately upon passage.

If people trusted each other (if lobbyists and advocates of extreme positions could be trusted) then we could probably all agree on some common sense issues like background checks, use and possessions restrictions on criminals and minors and even some potential shall-issue-licensing to own or carry (involving training and qualification to operate safely in public, similar to our driving laws)....

oh, wait...we already have agreed to do this as a society.

I guess what the extremists want is to either sell their firearm to any buttmonkey they want to sell it to, whether or not they know the person is a criminal, and the other side of that is that other extremist wants to prevent anyone from ever owning a firearm in the hopes that it will keep them safer (sacrificing liberty and independence for a false sense of security).

There's 200million firearms in private ownership in the US. They're not going to be turned in or disappear. The best we can do is educate our population to take more responsibility for their own actions and respect each other. I wonder if certain politicians or big government advocates want that?
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Zkpilot
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:51 pm

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 1):
So, if one night a few guys break in your house and threatens to rape your wife and daughter, and kill everyone when they are finished, what does that report say your chances of survival are? Just curious?[/quote
Well less likely to happen in the first place in a society where guns aren't abused.
Secondly if the guys don't have guns, you can still attack them with a baseball bat.
The cops won't be so busy dealing with gun crimes so they are likely to be able to respond quicker also.
You pick a rare example... sure its possible, but not very likely. Get a dog.
[quote=Springbok747,reply=7]How do they explain the extremely low crime rates in high gun-ownership countries like Finland and Switzerland?

a) the society there is more equal, with less poverty and more overall wealth
b) the education system is better
c) more integrated society with less minorities (in America most gun crime is committed by minorities)
d) military training for a lot of people/compulsary service meaning people respect guns and society more.
e) less organized crime
f) less gangsta/rap/gun culture glorification
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NIKV69
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:49 pm

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 21):
But what is the problem with a little bit of control? Let's say, you have to show your record is clear of violent crimes to purchase a gun in the "regular" way, making it a little bit more complicated for the bad guys to get them.

I don't agree with the gun show loophole and it needs to be changed. Problem with "little bit of control" is it leads to the gun haters in this country to begin to want more. Which just wastes our lawmakers' time.

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 21):
Mr Redneck with several convictions of beating his wife

Why do thee discussions always have to include the American hating comments? Congrats on living in a country where no husband beats his wife.   
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DocLightning
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:49 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):

Yea that wouldn't have anything to do with drug and gangs now would it?

You think that Australia doesn't have gangs and drugs? France? Germany? Hah! Think again.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 24):
But a critical difference we have here is that we acknowledge that rights are inherent, not granted by government,

As does Australia. They just don't consider gun ownership to be a fundamental right. For that matter, no country in the world does with one and only glaring exception.
-Doc Lightning-

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canoecarrier
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:16 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
And we are the only country with a 2nd amendment.

And, thank God for that. The 2nd amendment is just as important as any other amendment.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):
If I'm armed, they might get the word "rape" out before I start putting holes in them.

I live in a townhome on the top floor. The only way out of my house is down a stairway that any intruder in my house could effectively block me from leaving if I didn't have a gun. Its my home, I will defend my family with extreme prejudice if necessary.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):
I absolutely support, by Constitutional Amendment if necessary, a law that requires you go through the same firearms training police officers go through, even if the government has to pick up the tab.

I won't go that far. Our 2nd amendment rights has been widdled away over time, further restrictions on gun ownership are not needed.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 16):
Also if it was simply a thief I would presume that you would have to prove in court of law that shooting him would be justified, and if the thief was unarmed I would presume the gun owner would be criminally liable.

From Wiki: A Castle Doctrine (also known as a Castle Law or a Defense of Habitation Law) is an American legal doctrine arising from English Common Law[1] that designates one's place of residence (or, in some states, any place legally occupied, such as one's car or place of work) as a place in which one enjoys protection from illegal trespassing and violent attack. It then goes on to give a person the legal right to use deadly force to defend that place (his "castle"), and any other innocent persons legally inside it, from violent attack or an intrusion which may lead to violent attack. In a legal context, therefore, use of deadly force which actually results in death may be defended as justifiable homicide under the Castle Doctrine.

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 21):
But what is the problem with a little bit of control? Let's say, you have to show your record is clear of violent crimes to purchase a gun in the "regular" way, making it a little bit more complicated for the bad guys to get them.

Felens are not legally allowed to own firearms in the US. Lets see, a little gun control? Lets start with the national Firearms Act of 1934, Gun Control Act of 1968, Clinton Executive Orders, Lautenberg Act, HUD/Smith and Wesson agreement, the Brady Law, the School Safety and Law Enforcement Improvement Act. I’m done with compromise. Nothing about gun control in this country has ever been “reasonable” nor a genuine “compromise”.
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canoecarrier
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:43 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
His tough attitude towards gun ownership in Australia in 1996 has been a great success.

No kidding it's a tough attitude. I read a little on Australian gun laws. To even own a handgun or air pistol you have to serve a probationary period of six months using club handguns, and a minimum number of matches yearly to retain each category of handgun. And under any of the categories of guns self-defense is not accepted as a reason for issuing a "Permit to Acquire".

I live in one of the most liberal states in the US, but even here it's in the state constitution that you have the right to carry a pistol if you want. I also don't have to register that pistol with some state agency. That said, there is a waiting period for the gun and you are required to go through a criminal background check. Most of the guns used in the commission of a felony are illegally obtained either through straw purchases by illegal gun dealers or stolen.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:19 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
Australians are grouped into 4 classes not 3 like in the US and the working class which is the true middle class but is not named that rather keeping the "working" title instead.

What a load of BS.

News to Australians.... We now have 4 classes structures... well, according to someone in the US that is.

What is YOUR source for this ?????

We'd all love to see it !

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 17):
I sleep with a loaded Glock 21 45cal within arms reach, I sleep with my bedroom door locked, if someone were to try to come into my house at night, I can not speak for most responsble gun owners, but in my house they will get lit up, and the only proof I have to state is :" I was in fear for my life, your honor"!

All that gun ownership in the US and you have to live locked up in your own house like your in a jail, with loaded guns within "arms reach".... Nice

That makes for a real nice society don't you think ?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
No gangs? No drugs?

You have absolutely NO idea what your talking about      

We have massive problems in Australia with gangs and drugs. Please, by all means comment on things you have, at least some idea about, but don't BS so much about things you apparently, have not the foggiest idea about.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
Or really care about it.

So why are you bothering to participate in this thread then ?
Or are you just trying to stir things up ?   

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 26):
Gimme a f-ing break!

I'll give you nothing, let alone a f-ing "break"
What you do in the US is your business, and by all accounts and records, its at best dubious as to whether it works, but hey, who cares, your the one living there.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 27):
The best we can do is educate our population to take more responsibility for their own actions and respect each other.

But can you really just rely on "education" ?
There will always be exceptions to the rule, of people who can't or wont be "educated", so this is where the Government has a role to play by introducing laws, for the greater good of society as a whole. If some law abiding citizens have there freedoms curtailed a little by this, than so be it, that's the world we live in, not everything is possible all the time.

You cant always have your cake and eat it too now can you ?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 29):
Problem with "little bit of control" is it leads to the gun haters in this country to begin to want more. Which just wastes our lawmakers' time.

And can't the same be said for the Pro Gun lobbyists, wont they always want more and more ?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
You think that Australia doesn't have gangs and drugs? France? Germany? Hah! Think again.

Oh Doc, where have these people been hiding to think otherwise.   


Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 32):
No kidding it's a tough attitude.

And its no kidding that it seems to be working and working very well. The murder rates have dropped and significantly too since these laws were passed.

[Edited 2011-04-28 15:36:34]
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NIKV69
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:47 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 33):
What a load of BS.

News to Australians.... We now have 4 classes structures... well, according to someone in the US that is.

What is YOUR source for this ?????

We'd all love to see it !
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~johnthorpe64/Class_in_Australia.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=ah9...ddle%20and%20upper%20class&f=false

Your "middle class" is not even close to a real middle class. It is full of people that in the USA would be considered upper class.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 33):
That makes for a real nice society don't you think ?

Sure does.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 33):
So why are you bothering to participate in this thread then ?
Or are you just trying to stir things up ?

This thread was posted to stir things up and it just another in a long line of digs against the US and hatred toward being able to have guns. Nothing more.
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:52 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 33):
What you do in the US is your business, and by all accounts and records, its at best dubious as to whether it works, but hey, who cares, your the one living there.

Just for the record, I do not live in the USA. I was under impression that my nickname shows it clearly.

I'm asking again: Why do you think I would have more chances against an invader unarmed than armed?
Why do you think a gun ban would prevent a criminal from procuring a gun?
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Maverick623
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:00 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 13):

Or before they start putting holes in you perhaps ?

Anyone who comes into your house to rape and murder is going to have a gun regardless. So I really don't understand your retort.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 13):

Whatever, you blame it on is fine. It must be something American then, because its not that problem here.

You know what? It probably is. But we'll never know because you can't easily get guns. If you could, the situation may or may not be different.

I'd like you to take note that my reply was directed towards Doc with an American bias. If gun control as it exists in Australia works for you guys, great. Don't assume it would ever work here.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 16):
a typical homeowner would not shoot

Which is why I advocate police-style training for handguns. A person can be all macho about it, but I'd be willing to bet over half would hesitate. And that hesitation can be deadly for them.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 16):

Also if it was simply a thief I would presume that you would have to prove in court of law that shooting him would be justified

You would. As stated, being in fear of your life is proof enough, and it's reasonable to fear for your life when someone breaks into your home.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:16 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 34):
Your "middle class" is not even close to a real middle class. It is full of people that in the USA would be considered upper class.

Not disputing any of that NIKV69

But would you mind telling me/us, what the "other" 3 classes in Australia are. ?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 34):
Sure does.

You know, when I go to sleep at night. I put a glass of water next to my bed and switch the light out.

I sleep very soundly thanks and I think most people would.

Anyway, we are going off topic.
Its not about the US its about our laws working here in Australia.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 34):
This thread was posted to stir things up and it just another in a long line of digs against the US and hatred toward being able to have guns. Nothing more.

Yawn.   

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 35):
I do not live in the USA.

Sorry, my mistake. I was distracted here.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 35):
I'm asking again: Why do you think I would have more chances against an invader unarmed than armed?
Why do you think a gun ban would prevent a criminal from procuring a gun?

Well firstly, I never said your chances were any more or less about anything, armed or not ?

And secondly, all I can talk about is what happening here in Australia, and it appears, on the face of it to be working nicely.

There was a lot of opposition to the new laws initially, but gradually the voices went silent.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 36):
Anyone who comes into your house to rape and murder is going to have a gun regardless. So I really don't understand your retort.

So you are automatically assuming, that the homeowner is going to win this battle and shot and kill the badie first, before he's had a chance to "lit you up' as you guys say over there.

That's what I meant about putting holes in you perhaps, its a possibility isn't it ?
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Springbok747
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:40 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 33):
But can you really just rely on "education" ?

Yes. Places like Finland, Israel and Switzerland are examples that education, with respect to gun-ownership make a difference.

Gun laws only affect law abiding citizens. You can make any sort of law..and it will have no effect on illegal gun owners (or gangs/criminals). Most of the problems, related to firearms and crime in this country are caused by the 'bikie' gangs, and in many raids, automatic weapons (which are banned under our current gun laws) have been recovered. So tell me..how did these people manage to obtain something that has been banned? Simple: gun laws don't apply to them..because..*newsflash* gangs are not law abiding and they don't care for gun laws!

There are lots and lots of guns in Australia (over a million registered firearms at last count), but we hardly hear about gun-related violence, especially from legal gun-owners. This is because the background checks etc. needed to obtain firearms are very stringent, and they seem to be working. It may also have to do with people being more educated and sensible than certain groups of people (such as gangs) in the US.
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Maverick623
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:40 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):

So you are automatically assuming, that the homeowner is going to win this battle and shot and kill the badie first, before he's had a chance to "lit you up' as you guys say over there.

That's what I meant about putting holes in you perhaps, its a possibility isn't it ?

I still don't understand what you're getting at. In fact, what you're saying is there's 100% chance of getting killed if I didn't have a gun, or (for argument's sake) a 50% chance if I did. Obviously, I'd take the 50%.

And obviously, that's not accurate in the least. Just pointing out I don't get what you're trying to say?
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NIKV69
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:41 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
Not disputing any of that NIKV69

I know but another user tried to spin it.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
But would you mind telling me/us, what the "other" 3 classes in Australia are. ?

Quoted directly from the sources provided.

Class in Australia is based around a four tier structure. Starting from the bottom, the under class is the lowest class, with incomes at or below the poverty line, and is primarily made up of long term welfare recipients, the unemployed, the homeless and poverty-stricken, and who are usually permanently disenfranchised with extremely limited life chances (McGregor, 1997, p. 261)

Above this group is the working class, usually defined as from unskilled to skilled blue collar workers such as tradespeople, factory workers and labourers . They are distinct from the under class as they usually have jobs, higher income, at or slightly above the basic wage, and are somewhat more financially secure (McGregor, 1997, pp. 181-182).

Above the working class is the middle class. This class is divided into three distinct sub-classes, but where there is considerable merging between them. The first of these is the lower middle class which is made up of individuals with working class incomes who see themselves as middle class (Encel, 1970, pp. 120-121), or people who identify as working class but with the income and life style of the middle class (McGregor, 1997, pp. 145-147). As such the lower middle class could be seen as a transitional sub-class of people moving into, or out of, the middle class. Next is the central middle class, which is the largest of the three sub-classes. Most Australians see themselves as, or aspire to be in, this group. It is made up of people in mainly professional non-manual occupations on noticeably higher incomes than the working class (McGregor, 1997, pp. 145-146). The third sub-class is the upper middle class, which like the lower middle class, could be considered a transitional class, made up of individuals on a somewhat higher income than, but who identify with, the central middle class, or who have central middle class income, but identify with the upper class.

The final class is the upper class, which is made up of people who inherited or created great wealth, and by very high salaried professionals such as the CEO's of large companies. Some members of this class and the upper and central middle classes, appear to be changing into an internationally based transnational capitalist class, possibly even a global upper class, which increasingly identifies with an international, rather than national agenda (Sklair, 1996, pp. 1-15).
Whether this signals the creation of a new class, or simply the evolution of existing classes is not clear, as it is still in the process of developing.

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canoecarrier
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:53 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 33):
And its no kidding that it seems to be working and working very well. The murder rates have dropped and significantly too since these laws were passed.

Nothing I've seen suggests it was significant but they did drop. If people in your country are willing to give away what we regard a constitutional right, that's your business. But, that's your prerogative. I'm with Maverick, people shouldn't assume that what may work in one country would work in another.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
But would you mind telling me/us, what the "other" 3 classes in Australia are. ?

The information was in the links he provided, what more do you need?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
So you are automatically assuming, that the homeowner is going to win this battle and shot and kill the badie first, before he's had a chance to "lit you up' as you guys say over there.

I'll take my chances with a gun. The cower in a corner and hope he doesn't kill me or my family strategy doesn't sound all that appealing.

By the way, your argument that death by guns has dropped added some credence to what people have said for years here in the US. That if you ban guns people will find other ways to kill each other. Sure, homicides involving a firearm have dropped, but homicide in general has just about stayed the same.

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.aspx

That's your own government's statistics.
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PolymerPlane
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:02 am

Did you guys actually read the Harvard article?

I think it's here:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research...ulletins_australia_spring_2011.pdf

I found problems with the article:

1. The article is extremely bias. In the "opposing evidece", the paragraph started with "The authors (Australian gun lobby members)". No such qualifier with the other so called evidence for the cause. In fact the author of one of the cited articles (citation 2) was a member of gun control group. He cited himself on the second supporting evidence.

2. The article is funded by Joyce Foundation, a liberal group with strong anti gun lobby. http://www.joycefdn.org/

3. Anybody in their some logical observational skills can see that overall both non gun and gun suicide rate is going down, regardless of the gun control in Australia. Here's the actual article quoted in the harvard review:

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/12/6/365.full.pdf

check out page 368 (page 4 on the pdf)

There's practically no change in trend between before and after gun law. You don't have to come up with fancy smancy statistical term to see these:

a. Firearm homicide (not counting mass killing) has been steadily declining. The gun law made no difference in the trend

b. Firearm homicide total showed downward shift, although the same gap was observed in the non firearm homicide.

c. Firearm suicide rate has also been steadily declining. Granted there was a shift in the trend, but they coincide with the an even larger positive shift in the non firearm suicide rate (if you want to commit suicide, gun or not, it makes not much difference. You can always find good substitute)

d. Both the non firearm suicide and homicide declines post law, after constant increases in the previous years. This is important as the author concludes that there was an accelerated decline in firearm suicide and homicide. But clearly the atitude of Australians toward homicide and suicide was altered regardless of the law.

e. One positive aspect of the data that I can see is the decline in the mass killing, although it would be better to see other data such as the occurance of the attempt of mass killing ( i.e. some nuts going out with guns and start shooting without killing anybody). This particular data is also very sensitive to the definition of "mass killing"

4. The author of research article above (S. Chapman) was a member of coalition for gun control. The review article only quoted the conclusion, not looking the data objectively. This is the problem with scientists becoming advocates. They provide opinion, instead of analyzing the data objectively.

5. Harvard is a very liberal university. So, for these "reviews" take it with a pinch of salt, especially the ones that was funded by a strong advocate group. What do you think they're gonna conclude? Gun is not dangerous? and pissed off your funding source?
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U2380
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:09 am

I think this thread goes some way to demonstrating, to me, the feeling in the US towards guns and 'protection' in general, compared to.. well the rest of the world actually.

Of course, I know you can't get an accurate sample from and internet forum, but still it's a bit of an eye opener.

All it is, is cultural differences I suppose. Here in the UK, statements like some of the ones above would absolutely gobsmack the vast majority of citizens. Over here most people have never held a gun, let alone sleep with a loaded Glock next to their bed and be fully prepared to use it at a moment’s notice.

Mind you, I suppose you could argue that this increases the prevalence of knife crime. Swings and Roundabouts. Sort of.

[Edited 2011-04-28 17:13:29]

[Edited 2011-04-28 17:14:46]
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:10 am

Maverick623

This is your statement and what I replied too.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 13):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):
If I'm armed, they might get the word "rape" out before I start putting holes in them.

Or before they start putting holes in you perhaps ?

All i'm saying is that, you seemed to be making the assertion, that you would pull the trigger first, before the bad guy gets a look in. I went on to say that perhaps the bad guy might shoot you first. and not even say the word "rape" That's all.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 39):
I still don't understand what you're getting at. In fact, what you're saying is there's 100% chance of getting killed if I didn't have a gun, or (for argument's sake) a 50% chance if I did. Obviously, I'd take the 50%.

No. Im not saying that there is a 100% chance of getting killed if I didn't have a gun, or (for argument's sake) a 50% chance if I did, at all.

He may just use it to threaten you or your family, not actually shot you or any of them, just use it a a means of controlling you

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 40):
Quoted directly from the sources provided.

Well you learn something new every day, although I suspect if you pick any groupings apart, you could go on for ever.

Eg Lower lower "working class" and so on.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 41):
The information was in the links he provided, what more do you need?

Actually when I checked and clicked the link, it said "exceeded views" so I didn't actually see that link until just now.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 41):
Nothing I've seen suggests it was significant but they did drop.

From the report,

we've had no gun massacres since 1996, compared with 13 such tragedies during the previous 18 years.

I think that's a significant drop.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 41):
Sure, homicides involving a firearm have dropped, but homicide in general has just about stayed the same.

Well as they say. Rome wasn't built in a day was it, at least there has been a reduction in firearm related homicide, its a start
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Maverick623
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:43 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 44):

He may just use it to threaten you or your family, not actually shot you or any of them, just use it a a means of controlling you

Oh, ok. So with that mindset, I'm going to tell them politely to piss off, because they just want to control me and have no intention of using it.

No thanks. You say it all the time, that guns are used to kill people. Why the sudden change of heart? Why would an otherwise law-abiding citizen with self-defense in mind be more dangerous with a gun than a criminal with ulterior motives?

Again, your posts just don't make sense.
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Kent350787
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:21 am

I am quite happy with the gun laws here in Australia, and our relatively low level of gun related violence, especially homicide, is a marvellous thing. From here, I have never been able to comprehend:

1. Why gun related violence in the US, especially homicide, is so much higher than all other major economies and western Europe.

2. Why gun related violence in the US, especially homicide, is so much higher than other "Western" countries with similar levels of per capita gun ownership.

3. Why there seems to be little in the US to address the issue of gun related violence, especially homicide is issue in a meaningful way.
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AustrianZRH
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:53 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 29):
Why do thee discussions always have to include the American hating comments? Congrats on living in a country where no husband beats his wife.

How is this an American hating comment? What I have learned in school is that redneck means something like prole, macho. If that's different in common use, I apologize for offending you and ask you to put the blame on the Austrian schooling system  .

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 31):
Lets see, a little gun control?
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 29):
I don't agree with the gun show loophole and it needs to be changed. Problem with "little bit of control" is it leads to the gun haters in this country to begin to want more.

You see, I'm no expert in US gun law. My knowledge is from the media which say "in the U.S. you go down the road and buy your gun together with a beer and a sandwich, then you can go home and shoot your wife". From the comments in this thread, it looks like this is a bit apart from the real world...
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
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jetmech
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:38 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
Like you don't share a border with a nation in the middle of a bloody drug war?

Does that mean that anyone who does break into your house is there due to issues in Mexico?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
It is what it is but we will never change our gun laws to mirror yours. Or really care about it.

The far more important issue for many countries is that we NEVER allow gun laws like you have in the US. That's what many of us care about, not what happens in your country.

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 21):
Let's say, you have to show your record is clear of violent crimes to purchase a gun in the "regular" way, making it a little bit more complicated for the bad guys to get them.

The problem is that many "bad guys" get their hands on guns after they make their initial entry into the community in an entirely legal manner.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 24):
They're willing to accept laws that they don't all agree with. But a critical difference we have here is that we acknowledge that rights are inherent, not granted by government

Yes, but part of living amongst a large group of people is we must give up some individual rights for the greater good. Freedom itself has costs that are not always desirable. Absolute freedom is only possible if one lives in isolation.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 38):
So tell me..how did these people manage to obtain something that has been banned? Simple: gun laws don't apply to them..because..*newsflash* gangs are not law abiding and they don't care for gun laws!

Perhaps a significant number of these "illegal" firearms made their initial entry into the community via a completely LEGAL process?

Regards, JetMech
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lowrider
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:07 am

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 47):
My knowledge is from the media which say "in the U.S. you go down the road and buy your gun together with a beer and a sandwich, then you can go home and shoot your wife". From the comments in this thread, it looks like this is a bit apart from the real world...

It is. Even the gun show "loop hole" is overplayed. Any licensed dealer who sells at a gun show still has to do back ground checks, same as if the sale took place in a shop. The only way to buy a gun without one is a personal sale, from private party to private party. About a year ago a paper in Minneapolis had a reporter try to exploit this loop hole. He did not get far. http://www.citypages.com/2010-06-03/...ing-minnesota-s-gun-show-loophole/

I know results may vary somewhat across the country, but I think the article does a good job of showing that gun shows are not the arms bizarre that some people think it is.
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Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos