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baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:16 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 28):
a) the society there is more equal, with less poverty and more overall wealth
b) the education system is better
c) more integrated society with less minorities (in America most gun crime is committed by minorities)
d) military training for a lot of people/compulsary service meaning people respect guns and society more.
e) less organized crime
f) less gangsta/rap/gun culture glorification

My goodness, I knew we were good, but not that good. And I love NZ too. Actually I do. I think NZ is great, bit cold but lovely in the summer. Esp the Christchurch area, damn that set of quakes.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
As does Australia. They just don't consider gun ownership to be a fundamental right. For that matter, no country in the world does with one and only glaring exception.

            If I got the number of statements that I agree with there correct!!

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 41):
http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.aspx

That's your own government's statistics.

Well you are right about them being the GoAus stats, but evidently you did not read the document, esp look at the second figure. It even gives the degree one trend and confidence limits. DOWN. And that goes to 2007, I believe the numbers for the past three years are lower again. I suppose that this sort of comment indicates an unwillingness to accept the bleeding obvious?

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 46):
Kent350787

   I do not suppose you will get many answers there Kent! Interesting that Mexico gets quite a bit of blame. What I cannot work out is both where the Mexicans find a market for their naughty naughty drugs and where they get most of their guns. Quite a puzzle that!!!

Does make one wonder however if the US was populated by Doc clones between gun laws and decriminalization of drugs, how would matters be?
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:08 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 49):
It is. Even the gun show "loop hole" is overplayed. Any licensed dealer who sells at a gun show still has to do back ground checks, same as if the sale took place in a shop. The only way to buy a gun without one is a personal sale, from private party to private party. About a year ago a paper in Minneapolis had a reporter try to exploit this loop hole. He did not get far. http://www.citypages.com/2010-06-03/...hole/

Thanks for the info. That's what you get for believing the media   .
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
lowrider
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:43 am

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 51):
That's what you get for believing the media

They aren't all bad, but they have their limitations, and are certainly no replacement for independent, objective thought.
Proud OOTSK member
 
parton87
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:23 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 1):
So, if one night a few guys break in your house and threatens to rape your wife and daughter, and kill everyone when they are finished, what does that report say your chances of survival are? Just curious?



I live in a country (Sweden) were we have very tough weapon-laws. I can´t remember a case like this in Sweden. We have very little violence crimes and the ones we have are often domestic. Not saying that's better but no one in Sweden will ever thinks it can happend that some guy will break into their house and rape their daughter and wife.
 
jwenting
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:06 pm

It's mostly good because most Australians just ignore it from all I hear...
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canoecarrier
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:44 pm

Quoting Jetmech (Reply 48):
Yes, but part of living amongst a large group of people is we must give up some individual rights for the greater good. Freedom itself has costs that are not always desirable.

This is where I'll have to disagree. Americans have a totally different view on gun control than most if not all of the rest of the world, in my opinion, because the original 13 states were settled with revolutionaries who fought to free themselves from British rule, people fleeing from religious persecution, the Puritans, the Quakers all speaking many different languages and having different ideas. They picked up their guns as citizen soldiers and fought the British, Indians, they even fought each other. As the country grew west there often no law enforcement. People felt the need to protect themselves. And, in general we Americans do not believe the government should protect them and many feel the need, unlike Australians, that we should be allowed to have guns to protect ourselves from our government. It was important enough that our founding fathers made it the #2 Amendment. The second amendment is the right to bear arms and many of us associate that right with the right to protect their families still.

As you can see, we have a totally different view, mainly because of how our country was formed. I could make an argument that when Australia was settled, the British took care of security/law and guns never became a part of day-to-day life in Australia. Much like many other parts of the world. Here, I grew up hunting, my father taught me how to shoot, as did many other kids I knew. I now own a what I would call "reasonable" number of guns and plan on taking my kid out to learn to shoot as well. In many parts of our country the thought of giving up this "individual right" would only benefit a small percentage and strip constitutional rights from the majority.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 50):
Well you are right about them being the GoAus stats, but evidently you did not read the document, esp look at the second figure. It even gives the degree one trend and confidence limits. DOWN. And that goes to 2007, I believe the numbers for the past three years are lower again. I suppose that this sort of comment indicates an unwillingness to accept the bleeding obvious?

I'm sorry, but a far more interesting graph would have been "number of homicides 1915-2010" rather than just providing a percentage of homicides involving a firearm. From the data I see murder rates have hovered around 300/year in Australia with a peak of around 340 in 99 and a low of approximately 250 in 07. That's a lot of what we would call liberties given up for a marginal gain. Also interesting is that violent crime has steadily risen over that same timeframe.

http://www.aic.gov.au/en/statistics/violent%20crime.aspx

I'm not trying to tell you your way is wrong and our way is right. I'm just pointing out that there's a reason we're different and why gun laws like yours would never work here.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
Quokka
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:55 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 55):

While it is true that the original 13 colonies included some who became revolutionaries it is wrong to assume that all settlers were. Many of those who moved did so for the financial advantages it would gain them, not because they were inherently revolutionary. Remember that some of the original colonies were established by Royal Charters that granted certain immunities not available to other settlers. Remember also that some of the settlers were happy to take advantage of indentured labourers - i.e, benefit from slavery in all but name of people who had been convicted of offences in Britain. The early settlers were by no means democratic in the sense of tolerating opposing views as thet various "witch hunts" make clear.

I don't wish to minimise the efforts of genuine revolutionaries who actually believed in "all men are created equal" but let us not pretend for a minute that such an ideal motivated all those who opposed the continuing link with Britain. There were those who actually believed in freedom of conscience and the equality of man (not necessarily women) but there were others who equally stridently were opposed to such views and were to fight for their views with arms. Indeed, many settlers chose to move north rather than support terrorism (as described by General Cornwallis) and insurrection, as they saw it. Supporters of US independence would differ with the description of terrorism, but that was how their actions were perceived and described in official circles. While I personally support the right of self dtermination, I do not for a minute believe that everyone was motivated by abstarct values of inate human rights. How can one equate human rights with slavery even if at the the time it wasn';t banned in the British Empire?

I have no doubt that if the US Constitution were to be rewritten by the same people under today's conditions the result would be very different. For example, would they agree with the right to every Islamist to carry arms and freedom of religion? True, the Constitution does not prohibit Islamists from bearing arms, but that is because they were not seen as a threat at the time. Given today's hysteria, would they write the same document?

My own view is that everyone should have the right to bear arms after undergoing proper training in the safe use and storage of those arms, provided that they can show that they are of sound character - i.e. they have no prior record of criminal behaviour. Agreed, it's not watertight but nothing is.

For what it is worth, I have undergone training in the use of arms due to previous employment where it was a requirement of my employment (I remember following the instructions and criticisms of my trainer at Swanbourne many years ago), but I do not own a firearm at present.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:15 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 56):
I have no doubt that if the US Constitution were to be rewritten by the same people under today's conditions the result would be very different. For example, would they agree with the right to every Islamist to carry arms and freedom of religion? True, the Constitution does not prohibit Islamists from bearing arms, but that is because they were not seen as a threat at the time. Given today's hysteria, would they write the same document?

Probably best it was written then and not now. Right or left in the US most everyone can agree that if that document was left to today's politicians it may never have been completed.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 56):
My own view is that everyone should have the right to bear arms after undergoing proper training in the safe use and storage of those arms, provided that they can show that they are of sound character - i.e. they have no prior record of criminal behavior. Agreed, it's not watertight but nothing is.

Those are reasonable. Proper training in many states is a hunter education card, and the no prior record of felony criminal behavior is an existing requirement.

As to the rest of your post, it's a complicated background that I tried to simplify. Of course not everyone was a revolutionary during the founding of our country. Many parts of Canada were populated by Loyalists that fled during and after the Revolution. Just like existing views, probably in both countries you can't generalize how people feel or have felt in the past.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:34 pm

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 1):
So, if one night a few guys break in your house and threatens to rape your wife and daughter, and kill everyone when they are finished, what does that report say your chances of survival are? Just curious?

And unless you've pårepared to kill someone and are really well trained could you hit a moving target with a pistol, most people can't, shooting a static target in a range is easy.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 17):
I sleep with a loaded Glock 21 45cal within arms reach, I sleep with my bedroom door locked, if someone were to try to come into my house at night, I can not speak for most responsble gun owners, but in my house they will get lit up, and the only proof I have to state is :" I was in fear for my life, your honor"!

You're a touch paranoid aren't you.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 31):
I live in a townhome on the top floor. The only way out of my house is down a stairway that any intruder in my house could effectively block me from leaving if I didn't have a gun. Its my home, I will defend my family with extreme prejudice if necessary.

What if he has a gun? What if his gun was a shotgun, you probably couldn't hit a moving target with your pistol, I read an article at the dentists in a shooting magazine about about pistol training, it's all static targets, problem is your bad guy isn't going to be a static target, pistols are also pretty inaccurate, you'd need to have special forces training or something similar to have much chance of killing someone who wasn't static with a pistol.

The bumbest this I've seen in the US is people openly carrying pistols, seriously how easy would it be for Mr bad guy to walk up behind one of these people and steal the gun and shoot them? My pocket was picked in Rome a few years ago and I didn't feel a thing, stealing a pistol off either of these two bunnies would be childs play for a good pickpocket, or a big aggressive man with intent.

 
Quokka
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:55 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 57):

I would like to add you to my respected user list because of your reply.

While you accept some of the points that I have attempted to make I imagine (though I may be wrong) that there are areas of disagreement. I would never be so bold as to expect that anyone would agree with everything that I say, but I do do appreciate the curtesy, politeness and respect demonstrated in your response. Please so not for a second imagine that I am being patronising in saying that I welcome debate. Debate, to me, is not about point scoring but exchanging views in the hope that ideas will at least be considered.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:56 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 58):

What if he has a gun? What if his gun was a shotgun, you probably couldn't hit a moving target with your pistol,

You're assuming I'm defending myself with a pistol. In a house a townhome or an apartment a shotgun is better than a high velocity rifle round which could go through the wall and hit my neighbor. A pistol round could do the same thing.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 58):
pistols are also pretty inaccurate

Not really. If your frame of reference is an article you read in a dentists office, its going to be hard for me to explain some basic things about firearms. At 10 yards a pistol can be very accurate. Sure if you shoot at a static target it's easier to hit, but that's why many gun clubs and ranges have other targets to shoot at to improve your proficiency.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 58):

The bumbest this I've seen in the US is people openly carrying pistols, seriously how easy would it be for Mr bad guy to walk up behind one of these people and steal the gun and shoot them?

No easier than mr. bad guy walking up behind a cop and trying to steal a police officer's pistol. You rarely, if ever, hear that situation happening as you described it. Besides, there's a strap over the hammer of that gun, its not as easy as walking up and pulling the gun out of the holster. Although I generally support their right to open carry if they are legally allowed too, that's an extremely small segment of the gun owning population here in the US. A more significant (although still very low percentage) of the gun owning population can get a Concealed Carry Permit and mr. bad guy would never know I have a gun. In my state, that's a $55 application fee, fingerprinting, and background check. Since my state is a "shall issue" state, once my background check comes up clean I can (with some restrictions) carry a gun in an ankle holster, in a backpack, or basically anywhere I want to hide the gun. The restrictions are I'm not allowed to carry in some public parks, stadiums, youth centers, stadiums, among others.

I know that sounds crazy to most foreigners, but I can't think of one time that someone with a CCP in my state was involved in an illegal shooting in the 10 years I've lived here. In fact, just last month a bugler was shot at a local business by someone with a CCP who defended himself. Thats why we have Castle Laws here.
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Maverick623
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:22 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 58):

The bumbest this I've seen in the US is people openly carrying pistols, seriously how easy would it be for Mr bad guy to walk up behind one of these people and steal the gun and shoot them?

With those holsters? Good luck. You'd have to know how to operate them first.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 58):
My pocket was picked in Rome a few years ago and I didn't feel a thing, stealing a pistol off either of these two bunnies would be childs play for a good pickpocket, or a big aggressive man with intent.

The forces and angles involved in removing a gun from a holster are slightly different than snatching a wallet out of your back pocket.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:31 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 60):
just last month a bugler was shot at a local business by someone with a CCP who defended himself

I must make a memo to myself, do not take trumpet next time visiting the US. Was he a bit off key?  
 
canoecarrier
Posts: 2573
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sun May 01, 2011 3:08 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 62):
I must make a memo to myself, do not take trumpet next time visiting the US. Was he a bit off key?  

I forgot to mention it was because he was playing Taps off key. Serves him right!
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
mham001
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sun May 01, 2011 3:53 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
the fact that we have the highest rate of gun-related deaths ANYWHERE in the world where there isn't a war being fought.

There you go again. No, we don't. Not even close.

Quoting weebie (Reply 14):
The US doesn't have a legitimate Middle Class and this is the reason for High Gun Crime. Australians naturally are at Least 5-10 times Wealthier than your average American middle class citizen.

Really. Thats big news. Please define "middle class".

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 21):
But what is the problem with a little bit of control? Let's say, you have to show your record is clear of violent crimes to purchase a gun in the "regular" way, making it a little bit more complicated for the bad guys to get them.

They already can't. It doesn't even take a violent crime to lose your right to own firearms. Any felony as well as any misdemeanor domestic violence conviction.

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 47):
My knowledge is from the media which say "in the U.S. you go down the road and buy your gun together with a beer and a sandwich, then you can go home and shoot your wife". From the comments in this thread, it looks like this is a bit apart from the real world...

This is a problem. most people do not want to hear that the (especially European) media paints a picture very different than reality of life in the US. Take away inner city gang violence and the numbers are very,very different. There is not a gun problem, it is a cultural problem.
 
NAV20
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sun May 01, 2011 4:16 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 55):
The second amendment is the right to bear arms and many of us associate that right with the right to protect their families still.

Generally agree, canoecarrier, but history shows that the Founding Fathers had rather mixed motives. The very phrasing of the Second Amendment shows that:-

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

On the one hand, as you say, Congress realised that there'd be public opposition to setting up a large standing army so soon after British military occupation had been defeated - and, indeed, they couldn't afford one anyway. On the other hand, the 'right to bear arms' meant that the people would arm themselves 'free of charge,' and be available to the government as a 'militia' if required to fend off any other foreign powers that fancied taking over the USA.

So it was an entirely sensible measure in its time. But, over the next couple of centuries, it does appear to have led to a 'gun culture' which has much more to do with 'personal defence' rather than the 'national' kind that was originally intended.

On the other hand, this is possibly a bad time to assert that Australia doesn't have some problems with gun crime as well:-

"A South African couple holidaying with their daughter's family have been killed during a rampage by a gunman in Adelaide.

"Anthony Corbo, 39, was charged late yesterday with three counts of murder and two counts of attempted murder after he allegedly opened fire on his neighbour's house, killing the couple, aged 65 and 64, and their son-in-law, 41.

"Mr Corbo also allegedly shot the couple's 14-year-old grandson and a police officer, seriously wounding him in the face.

"The police officer was in an induced coma after surgery last night, and the teenager remained in a serious condition.

"Police are unsure what provoked the the gunman to allegedly fire through his neighbours' front door at 2.30am yesterday. After allegedly shooting at the family and police, he returned home next door and held officers at bay for eight hours."


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...g-two/story-e6frg6nf-1226047249457

In an odd way this story illustrates how 'gun controls' can have some unintended consequences. As in most places, shotguns are much easier to acquire in Australia than weapons using 'ball ammunition.' The fact that this 'animal' used a shotgun (at close range) probably made things worse on this occasion......
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
fridgmus
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sun May 01, 2011 7:28 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 34):
This thread was posted to stir things up and it just another in a long line of digs against the US and hatred toward being able to have guns. Nothing more.

I totally agree with NIKV69 on this one.   

This thread got off topic fast. It's about what works in Australia, NOT the US! You can compare, argue and throw out statistics all you want, the resulting arguments end up being the same every time.   

While our cultures share a lot, we are still two different, but IMHO, very wonderful, countries!

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 58):
The bumbest this I've seen in the US is people openly carrying pistols, seriously how easy would it be for Mr bad guy to walk up behind one of these people and steal the gun and shoot them? My pocket was picked in Rome a few years ago and I didn't feel a thing, stealing a pistol off either of these two bunnies would be childs play for a good pickpocket, or a big aggressive man with intent.

See reply 61 Rob. Maverick's reply is absolutely correct.
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photopilot
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sun May 01, 2011 10:49 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 1):
So, if one night a few guys break in your house and threatens to rape your wife and daughter, and kill everyone when they are finished, what does that report say your chances of survival are? Just curious?

Even if you own a gun in the USA, your likely chances of survival are NIL.

What are you going to do, sit and watch TV with your gun on the table beside you? Do you sleep with your gun under your pillow? Because by the time you go and get it, you're likely dead anyway.

The average perp, intent on breaking into your house to rob and rape isn't going to come in and "threaten" you with harm and give you a chance to respond. They'll come in and blow you away before you can even blink.

So..... wouldn't it be better if you could control guns and keep the perp from having one in the first place?
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
Posts: 3458
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sun May 01, 2011 11:34 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 67):
What are you going to do, sit and watch TV with your gun on the table beside you? Do you sleep with your gun under your pillow? Because by the time you go and get it, you're likely dead anyway.

Yep, he sure dose !

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 17):
I sleep with a loaded Glock 21 45cal within arms reach, I sleep with my bedroom door locked, if someone were to try to come into my house at night, I can not speak for most responsble gun owners, but in my house they will get lit up, and the only proof I have to state is :" I was in fear for my life, your honor"!
Quoting photopilot (Reply 67):
So..... wouldn't it be better if you could control guns and keep the perp from having one in the first place?

Not just for the US, but generally in all countries.   
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4723
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sun May 01, 2011 11:57 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 67):

Even if you own a gun in the USA, your likely chances of survival are NIL.

A load of crap if I've ever seen one.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 67):

So..... wouldn't it be better if you could control guns and keep the perp from having one in the first place?

No, because you can get guns ANYWHERE. Someone intent on shooting at someone is going to get the gun regardless of any laws.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 68):
Not just for the US, but generally in all countries.

I said this before dude: I'm glad it works in Australia. I don't tell you how to run your country, don't tell us how to run ours.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sun May 01, 2011 3:21 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 67):
So..... wouldn't it be better if you could control guns and keep the perp from having one in the first place?

How do you draft such a law? What law would criminals who sell guns obey? I'd be all for laws that prevent illegal guns from being used, but how do you stop that? There are many gun control efforts but most of them just severely limit rightful owners. I wish our culture wasn't so murder happy and I wish we didn't have gang/drug violence... we are a completely different case. I'm glad Australia's policies have worked, but I doubt they'd work here.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sun May 01, 2011 3:35 pm

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 47):
What I have learned in school is that redneck means something like prole, macho. If that's different in common use, I apologize for offending you and ask you to put the blame on the Austrian schooling system .

Tell you what come here and visit the south and start calling people rednecks. Then tell me what the meaning of it is.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 58):
The bumbest this I've seen in the US is people openly carrying pistols, seriously how easy would it be for Mr bad guy to walk up behind one of these people and steal the gun and shoot them? My pocket was picked in Rome a few years ago and I didn't feel a thing, stealing a pistol off either of these two bunnies would be childs play for a good pickpocket, or a big aggressive man with intent.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 58):
The bumbest this I've seen in the US is people openly carrying pistols, seriously how easy would it be for Mr bad guy to walk up behind one of these people and steal the gun and shoot them? My pocket was picked in Rome a few years ago and I didn't feel a thing, stealing a pistol off either of these two bunnies would be childs play for a good pickpocket, or a big aggressive man with intent.

I agree that is why I prefer concealed carry laws better.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 64):
Really. Thats big news. Please define "middle class".

I addressed this already and debunked it. See my earlier posts. AUS has a 4 class system in which they call their middle class "working" and split their upper class into two seperate classes with the lower earners renamed "middle"
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
Quokka
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sun May 01, 2011 4:06 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 71):
AUS has a 4 class system in which they call their middle class "working" and split their upper class into two separate classes with the lower earners renamed "middle"

You are repeating the opinion of a couple of people who have published their own views. Those views are not necessarily agreed to by other academics in Australia. Some take opposing views. The official ideology is that Australia is a 'classless" society. The Official position is nonsense but that does not necessarily make your assertion correct.

Some might suggest that insofar as the average Australian lacks 'class' that is true. Generally politicians try to avoid terms like class, although they do refer to "middle Australia" where the majority of Australian's are supposed to exist. The other two extremes are "the top end of town" and "the disadvantaged" but those terms are equally loose. Of course there are massive differences in wealth and, more importantly, control of wealth. But it is simplistic to try and reduce this to non-sensical terms like three or four classes. Even the links you cite suggest that there are "sub-classes" so those four classes that you insist upon appear to be a bit fluid. Mind you, what all this has to do with gun laws I am not sure.

My own view, despite not personally possessing a firearm but being trained in their use for professional reasons, is that individuals should be free to arm themselves. Provided that there are appropriate checks and balances (none of which can be 100% certain) then an individual should be able to apply for a licence and purchase a weapon. To a certain extent this exists in Australia but it does require that a demonstrated need exists. So it is easier for farmers to obtain a firearms licence, to eradicate vermin for example, than it is for a city dweller who is not a member of a gun club.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sun May 01, 2011 4:44 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 72):

You are repeating the opinion of a couple of people who have published their own views. Those views are not necessarily agreed to by other academics in Australia. Some take opposing views.

I'm sorry but isn't that what started this thread? The thread started linked to a paper where a couple people had published their own views.
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mariner
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sun May 01, 2011 8:28 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 72):
My own view, despite not personally possessing a firearm but being trained in their use for professional reasons, is that individuals should be free to arm themselves.

I used to be about as "anti-gun" as it gets but some of my views have changed.

I live in rural New Zealand, in the woop-woop, in the bush, some considerable distance from my nearest neighbour. I have two dogs and I encourage them to go nutso if any car, or anyone, comes down the long right of way to my house.

I would never have thought of owning a gun, but there has been a spate of very violent domestic break-ins in our rural area, with physical harm done. It is usually young blokes looking for drug money and I doubt protect myself against them.

Like every older person, I could easily say that "society has changed" and I doubt that's really true, there's always been a surprising underbelly of violence in NZ.

I do suspect one thing has changed. It seems to me - right or wrong - that the drug culture which has exploded here, not weed but methamphetamine, has changed at least some aspects of society.

Or maybe it's the present attitude to crime and punishment in NZ which has become crime and rehabilitation - "he isn't really a murderer, he's just a very naughty boy."

So now I keep a shotgun at my house and I've been through a firearms training course. Would I use it? I dunno. I don't like it, but I do feel more secure.

mariner
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TheCommodore
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sun May 01, 2011 8:45 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 69):
I said this before dude: I'm glad it works in Australia. I don't tell you how to run your country, don't tell us how to run ours.

You seem to have great trouble reading posts don't you ?

Where, have I said to you, how to run your country, dude ????

Quoting Quokka (Reply 72):
You are repeating the opinion of a couple of people who have published their own views. Those views are not necessarily agreed to by other academics in Australia.

Quokka, your absolutely right. These are the views of a few, not mainstream views at all.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 73):
I'm sorry but isn't that what started this thread? The thread started linked to a paper where a couple people had published their own views.

No.

The study/review, was conducted by none other than your own Harvard University.   

[Edited 2011-05-01 14:11:54]
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Maverick623
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Sun May 01, 2011 11:48 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 75):

Where, have I said to you, how to run your country, dude ????
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 68):
Quoting photopilot (Reply 67):
So..... wouldn't it be better if you could control guns and keep the perp from having one in the first place?

Not just for the US, but generally in all countries.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 75):
The study/review, was conducted by none other than your own Harvard University

By a professor with an anti-gun bias, and funded by an anti-gun lobby.
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Mon May 02, 2011 12:03 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 76):
By a professor with an anti-gun bias, and funded by an anti-gun lobby.

So what....
The figures and stats are there for all to see, the Prof didn't make then up did he?

Harvard University is at the top of the report, its all that matters in most peoples eyes. Harvard, a university with an extraordinary reputation ALL over the world.

Wouldn't you agree, evidently not.

BTW,

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 76):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 68):
Quoting photopilot (Reply 67):
So..... wouldn't it be better if you could control guns and keep the perp from having one in the first place?

Not just for the US, but generally in all countries.

I am agreeing with the poster (photopilot) that's all.
Its hardly telling you how to run your country.
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canoecarrier
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Mon May 02, 2011 2:25 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 77):
Harvard University is at the top of the report, its all that matters in most peoples eyes. Harvard, a university with an extraordinary reputation ALL over the world.

George W. went to Yale, a well respected University all over the world, and in the same Ivy League that Harvard is in. That didn't seem to make any difference to people "All over the world". I wouldn't base whether or not I believe a paper from a university based on which university it came from. Your own government posts less impressive statistics on crime. Violent crime has gone up over the time that your gun control laws have been in effect.

Quoting mariner (Reply 74):
So now I keep a shotgun at my house and I've been through a firearms training course. Would I use it? I dunno. I don't like it, but I do feel more secure.

Personally, I don't think there's any difference why you own a gun and I own a gun. I think most people not from the US on this thread have this picture of people with fully automatic firearms sitting waiting for someone to kick in the door of our house. I own guns, I am prepared to use those guns to defend my family, just like you are. The only other uses I have for them are target shooting and hunting. Cheers.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 67):
What are you going to do, sit and watch TV with your gun on the table beside you? Do you sleep with your gun under your pillow? Because by the time you go and get it, you're likely dead anyway.

I have a three level house. There are loaded guns on all three floors.
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Mon May 02, 2011 3:53 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 78):
George W. went to Yale, a well respected University all over the world, and in the same Ivy League that Harvard is in. That didn't seem to make any difference to people "All over the world".

What are you talking about ?

There a plenty of GWB supporters all over the world.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 78):
I wouldn't base whether or not I believe a paper from a university based on which university it came from.

It was a review paper, made up from stats and figures since the Howard Gov changed the law on gun ownership.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 78):
Your own government posts less impressive statistics on crime.

less impressive statistics on crime than who ?

These figures WERE from our Government. They are not made up and plucked out of thin air. The paper was merely a review paper. What are you saying?

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 78):
Violent crime has gone up over the time that your gun control laws have been in effect.

So what !

This just shows that you haven't even read the article have you, otherwise you would have known that ????

This thread is about gun massacres. NOT gun crime.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 78):
I have a three level house. There are loaded guns on all three floors.

All 3 levels, I'd say you'd have to be slightly paranoid if that really is the case?
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Mon May 02, 2011 8:55 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 55):

As you can see, we have a totally different view, mainly because of how our country was formed. I could make an argument that when Australia was settled, the British took care of security/law and guns never became a part of day-to-day life in Australia. Much like many other parts of the world.

Maybe, but for both our countries, all this occurred more than 200 years ago. Surely the need to protect oneself like a pioneer heading into uncharted territory has well and truly passed? Are the threats to your safety, security and survival anywhere near those encountered by your forefathers?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 69):
Someone intent on shooting at someone is going to get the gun regardless of any laws.

I'm not sure if this is relevant. Due to the ease of availability of firearms, a criminal knows it is likely that a homeowner is armed. They themselves acquire a firearm to address the situation. This is what elevates the seriousness of any confrontation and makes it more likely someone will get shot. A criminal doesn't set out to shoot someone during a home invasion; however, they may do it out of "necessity", this necessity being the result of the widespread availability of firearms.

Regards, JetMech
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Mon May 02, 2011 10:43 am

Quoting jetmech (Reply 80):
Maybe, but for both our countries, all this occurred more than 200 years ago.

Wonder if Tocqueville would be impressed now? You could argue that one country has progressed and another regressed. You point and I will look.    Or as Francis Urquhart would have said "You might well think that; I couldn't possibly comment"
 
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Mon May 02, 2011 5:06 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 79):

All 3 levels, I'd say you'd have to be slightly paranoid if that really is the case?

Not really. If you were to visit my house you'd never know they were there. But, the #1 reason I have them is home defense. Besides, in a home invasion robbery I would need access to them no matter where I was in the house. Makes more sense than carrying a firearm with me all over the house.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 79):
It was a review paper, made up from stats and figures since the Howard Gov changed the law on gun ownership.

Ok, here's a paper from the University of Melbourne

http://www.ssaa.org.au/capital-news/...rne-uni-paper-Aust-gun-buyback.pdf

"This paper takes a closer look at the effects of the National Firearms Agreement on gun deaths. Using a battery of structural break tests, there is little evidence to suggest that it had any significant effects on firearm homicides and suicides. In addition, there also does not appear to be any substitution effects – that reduced access to firearms may have led those bent on committing homicide or suicide to use alternative methods."

My point isn't that this paper is any better than the one you posted, which I did read but that statistics can be read several ways and sometimes used to form a hypothesis that fits the writer's own opinion. By the way, why are you focusing on mass murders? does it matter if they were all killed at the same time or in singular events?

Quoting jetmech (Reply 80):
Are the threats to your safety, security and survival anywhere near those encountered by your forefathers?

You tell me. This is the violent crime map for the City of Seattle for the past 2 weeks. Each red dot is a violent crime, I live near several of these events.

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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Mon May 02, 2011 10:14 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 82):
Not really. If you were to visit my house you'd never know they were there. But, the #1 reason I have them is home defense. Besides, in a home invasion robbery I would need access to them no matter where I was in the house. Makes more sense than carrying a firearm with me all over the house.

Please just answer me this question then.

Is America really that "unsafe" that you need to have loaded guns on every floor of your house, just incase someone decides to break in and rob you ?
If so, how can you stand to live like that ?
Do you also have one in your car and garden shed, or do you carry one on your person at all times ?

I can't imagine having to live like that day to day. To me that is totally unacceptable in this day and age.
I always thought that to a large extent, the US was generally a safe and peacful law abiding country, however you paint a very different picture.

Anyway, back on topic....

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 82):
Ok, here's a paper from the University of Melbourne

Wow, what a paper. Talking about confussing !

At first glance, and a quick one at that (sorry but as I'm not a university Professer it all reads like goboligook to me) it appears NOT to cover the periods we were originally talking about.

Also, in my original article that I posted, it states that, and I quote.....

"A comprehensive evaluation last year by the ANU researchers Christine Neill and Andrew Leigh revealed that the reforms had reduced overall homicide and suicide rates too. In other words, gun deaths have not been substituted by other methods of homicide or suicide."

And,

"This makes sense because you can't kill someone (or yourself) as easily with a knife as with a gun. The ANU researchers estimated that 200 deaths a year have been prevented, with an annual economic saving of $500 million. That's a $7.5 billion return on the one-off $500 million cost of the reforms to taxpayers.

Anyway, as I have been saying, on the face of it, things appear to be very different between Australia and the US on this matter, as is evidenced by your having guns loaded all over you house, because you feel the need. That in istself speake volumes at to the varying differences. I don't think, nor have I ever heard of the avarage Australian feeling the need to live (like you) with guns on evey level of the house.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 82):
By the way, why are you focusing on mass murders? does it matter if they were all killed at the same time or in singular events?

I am focusing on "Mass murders" because thats what the papers was written about. Meaning, that's all I can talk about in relation to this topic/paper

To bring anything else into it, will only cloud the entire thing.

[Edited 2011-05-02 15:20:40]

[Edited 2011-05-02 15:55:17]
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Mon May 02, 2011 11:11 pm

Quoting jetmech (Reply 80):
Due to the ease of availability of firearms, a criminal knows it is likely that a homeowner is armed.

The vast majority of criminals will never set foot in a house that they think might be occupied, let alone occupied with an armed resident.

Quoting jetmech (Reply 80):
A criminal doesn't set out to shoot someone during a home invasion

If they have a gun, they will not hesitate to shoot. Best case scenario: they pistol whip you and tie you up.

Quoting jetmech (Reply 80):
this necessity being the result of the widespread availability of firearms.

Except when you take away the guns from the law-abiding homeowners, then the criminals will always have the upper hand with a gun. Because unlike you, they don't care about morals.
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Mon May 02, 2011 11:49 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83):
Is America really that "unsafe" that you need to have loaded guns on every floor of your house, just incase someone desides to break in and rob you ?

I get the feeling if I lived in a one floor ranch style house and I told you I had a loaded gun in the house you'd think that was too much anyway. I went through the trouble to highlight my point by posting a recent crime map in the general area I live. Is America unsafe? generally no, but there's nothing wrong with being prepared. I made a personal choice to live in a three story home, just like I made a personal choice to protect my home and family with a firearm(s). If you get the impression you'd be falling over guns in my house, that would be incorrect. I'm not judging you, just discussing the relative accuracy of the data you've presented.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83):
At first glance, and a quick one at that (sorry but as I'm not a university Professer it all reads like goboligook to me) it appears NOT to cover the periods we were originally talking about.

It covers the dates from when the NFA was started until 2009 if memory serves me right. And, I'm sorry but that's what research papers look like. I read them all the time for work.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83):

I am focusing on "Mass murders" because thats what the papers was written about. Meaning, that's all I can talk about in relation to this topic/paper

To bring anything else into it, will only cloud the entire thing.

I disagree. They're using the subject of "mass murders" to support the NFA. However, the total number of homicides in general has only slightly decreased over the time frame that they are analyzing. It's called cherry picking data to support their argument.

You're judging us based on your gun laws. But we're two completely different countries. I doubt Australians ever looked at gun ownership as a right, it's probably always been viewed as a privilege. But, in general most gun owners in America consider it a right, as do I, and don't make a separation between sports/hobbies involving shooting and self defense. I don't know, maybe Australians are willing to put complete trust in their law enforcement agencies to protect them. That's fine, it's your country. But, as a society Americans do not want to take the "I'll sit in the corner and hope he doesn't kill me before the police show up" approach. A good example is that handguns in Australia have been tightly regulated since the 1930s. Lack of constitutional protection for gun owners in your country has generally meant gun control measures can be passed quickly and easily given public and political attention and support. Thankfully, here they can't. Because, all making new laws regarding guns here does is take guns out of law abiding citizens hands.
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Tue May 03, 2011 12:11 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 67):
So..... wouldn't it be better if you could control guns and keep the perp from having one in the first place?

Jeebus friggin christ...what part of "gun laws only affect law-abiding citizens" don't you understand?! NO GUN LAW will have any sort of affect on a criminal..they will have access to guns even when guns are banned.
Like I said before, we have a problem with biker gangs in some parts of this country..and police raids have uncovered automatic weapons, grenades etc, in their possession. How he hell did these people get these..because after all we have tough gun laws that BAN automatic weapons and grenades! So by your logic these 'perps" should not have access to these..because hey..we have gun laws that ban these weapons and all gun laws work..right?  
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Tue May 03, 2011 12:49 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 85):
You're judging us based on your gun laws.

True, it's difficult to walk in the shoes of another.

I'm still interested in why gun homicide rates etc. are so much higher in the US than in "western" countries with similar levels of gun ownership. And then why, at least to an outside observer, there has been limited success in reducing the rates, if there is even such an aim?
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Tue May 03, 2011 2:50 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 82):
But, the #1 reason I have them is home defense.

Fair enough. But if we stop for a minute to think carefully about whom you are protecting yourself against, the sad answer is in most cases, it would be one of your fellow American citizens. It strikes me as being quite sad that you must be so afraid of your fellow countrymen.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 82):
You tell me. This is the violent crime map for the City of Seattle for the past 2 weeks. Each red dot is a violent crime, I live near several of these events.

If many of these violent acts involved firearms, I would be worried. However, I think any person living in a major metropolitan area anywhere in the world could draw a similar map.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 84):
Except when you take away the guns from the law-abiding homeowners, then the criminals will always have the upper hand with a gun. Because unlike you, they don't care about morals.
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 85):
Because, all making new laws regarding guns here does is take guns out of law abiding citizens hands.
Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 86):
Jeebus friggin christ...what part of "gun laws only affect law-abiding citizens" don't you understand?! NO GUN LAW will have any sort of affect on a criminal..they will have access to guns even when guns are banned.

I am reasonably sure that in past gun control threads I have been strongly advocating non-retrospective laws to control the vast number of firearms that continue to flood into the community. I agree with the three of you, retro-active laws to remove guns already in the community will never work, and only target the law abiding citizen. However, surely the time has come to think long and hard about the continuing relative ease with which firearms can still be acquired?

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 86):
Like I said before, we have a problem with biker gangs in some parts of this country..and police raids have uncovered automatic weapons, grenades etc, in their possession. How he hell did these people get these..because after all we have tough gun laws that BAN automatic weapons and grenades! So by your logic these 'perps" should not have access to these..because hey..we have gun laws that ban these weapons and all gun laws work..right?

Not at all. The fact that criminals have banned weapons is often used as proof that tough gun laws don't work, and thus, we may as well do away with them. Nothing could be worse than to follow through with such a line of thinking. The tough gun laws we have in this country should remain, whether criminals chose to abide by them or not.

Regards, JetMech
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Tue May 03, 2011 3:30 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 85):
I'm not judging you, just discussing the relative accuracy of the data you've presented.

Listen canoecarrier, I am not in any way judging you. Sorry you feel that way.

All I'm saying is this. To someone who dose not believe it necessary to own a gun in a residential area, hearing you say you have one on each level of your house sounds a little overkill (excuse the punn) to me, unless you feel continually threatened by something, and I don't, so hence no gun. Now if you think that is judging then.... well ?

All it is, is just a difference between what you consider normal and what I do.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 85):
I disagree.

Hey I'm sorry. I didn't write the paper, decide the subject or parameters, and nor did you, so you can disagree all you want, but that is not going to change this fact that the report exists and with Harvard University written on the front of it.

Correct me if I'm wrong please though, shouldn't a Professor, who is going to conduct a review of a particular subject view everything with an impartial eye ? Shouldn't he respond in a completely unbiased way, and let the statistics and figures/rates, speak for themselves in his summation/report/review, and as you say, you read "research papers" all time, how do you base your conclusions once you've read something ?

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 85):
However, the total number of homicides in general has only slightly decreased over the time frame that they are analyzing

Again please correct me, but you are saying the figures "have slightly" gone down over that period ?

Isn't that good ?

How can they cheery pick, if that's actually what the true figures are saying then.... I don't really follow how that can discredit there conclusions.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 85):
You're judging us based on your gun laws.

No I am not. Your telling me about your own gun ownerships practices in your own daily life, and I'm simply saying, as a person that dose not own guns I find it had to understand that you feel the need to have one on every level.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 85):
I don't know, maybe Australians are willing to put complete trust in their law enforcement agencies to protect them. That's fine, it's your country.

I'd say that's probably right.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 85):
as a society Americans do not want to take the "I'll sit in the corner and hope he doesn't kill me before the police show up" approach.

Now look who's judging

Quoting jetmech (Reply 88):
I think any person living in a major metropolitan area anywhere in the world could draw a similar map.

Just as living in Melbourne, Brisbane or Sydney would enable you to do the same.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 86):
So by your logic these 'perps" should not have access to these..because hey..we have gun laws that ban these weapons and all gun laws work..right?

No law is perfect, wherever you are in the world, but that doesn't mean we should abolish all laws because they'er not 100% perfect, dose it !

[Edited 2011-05-02 20:43:40]
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Tue May 03, 2011 4:02 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 89):
shouldn't a Professor, who is going to conduct a review of a particular subject view everything with an impartial eye ? Shouldn't he respond in a completely unbiased way, and let the statistics and figures/rates, speak for themselves in his summation/report/review

Professors should have, but this one did not. Just look at the data yourself and draw your own conclusion. Why do you have to be told the conclusion of the data? Professors are human. They have their opinions. This particular person have a strong opinion in his research.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Tue May 03, 2011 4:43 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 90):
Professors should have,

Ok

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 90):
but this one did not.

Who says ?

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 90):
Just look at the data yourself and draw your own conclusion.

I have looked at the data, and I don't see any other conclusions that you can come too.

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 90):
Professors are human.

Yes they are, but they are also professionals in there chosen field, IMHO they should not be biased in the findings they come to, especially if they are conducting a review of cold hard facts.

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 90):
They have their opinions.

I'm sure they do, as dose everyone, but as I have just said, they are professionals and should not let there own views get in the way of the facts should they !

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 90):
This particular person have a strong opinion in his research.

I don't follow you, what do you mean ?
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baroque
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Tue May 03, 2011 4:59 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 91):
Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 90):
This particular person have a strong opinion in his research.

I don't follow you, what do you mean ?

Hint. I think he means "bias". Which might be true, or it might be that PP just does not agree with the "particular person". Using such a quaint phrase to describe someone is itself an indication of bias one might conclude!!

Sigh, I received my lessons in how to write neutral statements from my Biology supervisor.
 
Springbok747
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Tue May 03, 2011 5:30 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 89):
No law is perfect, wherever you are in the world, but that doesn't mean we should abolish all laws because they'er not 100% perfect, dose it !

Of course not. I was using it to illustrate the point that no law will work a 100%..but for the most part our gun laws, with their tough background checks seem to be working..which is good (except for that shooting in Adelaide recently..where the guy when whacko and shot 3 people..which proves that no law works all the time).

Even though I am a gun nut..I still support the need for background checks especially with regards to handguns, and also locking firearms in a safe place..this has indeed prevented many home invaders from using the homeowners own weapons against them.
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canoecarrier
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RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Tue May 03, 2011 5:31 am

Quoting jetmech (Reply 88):
Fair enough. But if we stop for a minute to think carefully about whom you are protecting yourself against, the sad answer is in most cases, it would be one of your fellow American citizens. It strikes me as being quite sad that you must be so afraid of your fellow countrymen.

I bet that nearly 90% of the crimes in Australia, New Zealand and the US are perpetrated by people who live in the same country. Robert William Pickton lived less than 100 miles from where I live but I never feared for my safety from him even though he was killing dozens of Canadian women.

Quoting jetmech (Reply 88):
If many of these violent acts involved firearms, I would be worried. However, I think any person living in a major metropolitan area anywhere in the world could draw a similar map.

Violent crime includes rape. Are you ok with your wife being raped? That's a serious question. If you could protect your wife or daughter from being raped by owning a firearm would you? I looked at the Australian data, rape is not an uncommon crime. Many women in the US carry a handgun to protect themselves from being raped.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 87):
I'm still interested in why gun homicide rates etc. are so much higher in the US than in "western" countries with similar levels of gun ownership.

You decide for yourself. For what its worth here's wiki's data http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

The US isn't that far ahead of Canada and Finland. But, in fairness they are, but we are a much larger country with more urban areas.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 89):
Correct me if I'm wrong please though, shouldn't a Professor, who is going to conduct a review of a particular subject view everything with an impartial eye ?

In other words, I'm going to ignore a paper written by the U of Melbourne because an anti-gun professor working for Harvard, who consequently lives in my country not yours, wrote another. I'll blame it on "they use big numbers" and say it's better because some others might have a different opinion.

I'm going to leave this thread by saying it's ok to have a national identity when it comes to firearms. To be honest, I love the Swiss gun I bought last month that still has the swiss national's name on the stock. That's mostly why I collect guns, that and to protect my family. I don't differentiate between the two. Australia is free to make their own laws and govern their citizenry as they want. As I've said, we consider it a right, you consider it a privilege. I've provided data that suggests that the NFA might not be as successful as you posted originally, you have ignored it. But, I'm sure our two countries are pretty safe, regardless of how crazy you think I am for having more than one loaded gun in my house.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Tue May 03, 2011 6:07 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 82):
Ok, here's a paper from the University of Melbourne

http://www.ssaa.org.au/capital-news/...rne-uni-paper-Aust-gun-buyback.pdf

"This paper takes a closer look at the effects of the National Firearms Agreement on gun deaths. Using a battery of structural break tests, there is little evidence to suggest that it had any significant effects on firearm homicides and suicides. In addition, there also does not appear to be any substitution effects – that reduced access to firearms may have led those bent on committing homicide or suicide to use alternative methods."

Let us quote the entire conclusions:

This paper takes a closer look at the effects of the National Firearms Agreement
on gun deaths. Using a battery of structural break tests, there is little evidence to suggest
that it had any significant effects on firearm homicides and suicides. In addition, there
also does not appear to be any substitution effects – that reduced access to firearms may
have led those bent on committing homicide or suicide to use alternative methods.

Since the 1996 Port Arthur massacre, two other shooting incidents have attracted
much media attention in Australia. An incident on 21 October 2002 at Monash
University, in which a gunman killed two people and wounded five, prompted the
National Handgun Buyback Act of 2003. Under this scheme that ran from July to
December 2003, 70,000 handguns were removed from the community at a cost of
approximately A$69 million. Another shooting on 18 June 2007, in which a lone
gunman killed a man who had come to the aid of an assault victim and seriously
wounded two others in Melbourne’s central business district during morning rush hour,
renewed calls for tougher gun controls. Although gun buybacks appear to be a logical
and sensible policy that helps to placate the public’s fears, the evidence so far suggests
that in the Australian context, the high expenditure incurred to fund the 1996 gun
buyback has not translated into any tangible reductions in terms of firearm deaths.


The conclusions are based on the premise that for an effect to be demonstrated, a break in gradients in the time series must be coincident with the Buyback act. That started in 2003. Their data go to 2004. How ever do you suppose that a test of data that covers just one year of data after the buyback is a valid test, especially of a rather tricky statistic such as a break in a time series? The paper is dated 2008, but the data only go to 2004. I think you need their later revision, surely they must have done one?

In the conclusions, the have very little on the stats. Instead they discuss events that are sufficiently rare to have no statistical significance whatsoever.

A very strange paper. If you look up the authors, they are both senior lecturers. Neither lists that paper in their list of achievements.
For example:
Sandy Suardi is a Senior Lecturer at the School of Economics and Finance. He specialises in applied econometrics, macroeconomics and finance. His articles have featured in academic journals such as the Journal of Economic Surveys, British Journal of Industrial Relations, World Development, Economic Record, Economics Letters, amongst others; and his research has been cited in a senate inquiry and by academics, practitioners and the media. He completed his PhD in economics at the University of Melbourne.
He is currently working on the following research topics.
1. Examining socioeconomic patterning of food insecurity in rural India.
2. Investigating the nature of correlation dynamics between foreign reserves and foreign exchange interventions so as to justify the use of foreign reserves as a proxy for intervention.
3. Employing a semi-parametric technique and Bayesian model averaging methods to improve short-term interest rate volatility forecasts.


TheCommodore seems justified in having reservations. How about you ask a person experienced in criminal stats. Weatherburn comes to mind
http://www.assa.edu.au/fellows/profile.php?id=497
This should interest you:
http://www.usyd.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=6730
Uses and Abuses of Crime Statistics on Thursday 14 April is a session being held in association with the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research (BOCSAR). It anticipates the release of the 2010 NSW crime statistics in late April.

The session will feature Dr Don Weatherburn, who is the Director of BOCSAR and a member of the Institute's Advisory Committee.

Reflecting on the difficulties of crime reporting Dr Weatherburn said, "The recorded rate of crime is affected by a variety of factors. Public willingness to report crime, police recording practices, seasonal factors and pure chance all play their part.

"For that reason interpreting and reporting crime data has to look at whether a pattern has come about by chance, if anything has happened to encourage better recording of the offence and if the trend is consistent with other relevant data.

"I hope that this session will give attendees the tools and the background to better understand crime statistics and the context that they occur in," Dr Weatherburn said.

Commenting on hosting the event, Garner Clancey, from the Sydney Institute of Criminology, said, "Given that the Institute's academics are engaged in a range of research relevant to NSW crime patterns such as drug and alcohol use, youth crime, rural crime, place-based analysis of crime, violence against women and homicide rates, we feel that this is a particularly appropriate session for us to be presenting."

"This session aims to provide a detailed understanding of the limitations of crime statistics. It will address ways of interpreting and reporting crime data including an overview of the current research resources. It would be especially helpful to journalists and commentators engaged in this type of analysis."

The Sydney Institute of Criminology is a research centre based in the Sydney Law School specialising in criminology, criminal justice and criminal law. Staff at the institute advise government and private organisations on matters of crime law and policy and sit on a range of public sector committees and advisory boards.
Event details
What: Uses and Abuses of Crime Statistics briefing session
When: 10 to 11am, Thursday 14 April
Where: Foyer, Level 2, New Law Building, Camperdown Campus. See map and directions
Cost: Free
RSVP: Sydney Law School website
Media enquiries: Verity Leatherdale, 9351 4312, 0419 278 715, [email protected]

Damn, missed it!!!
 
User avatar
jetmech
Posts: 2378
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:14 am

RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Tue May 03, 2011 6:07 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 94):
I bet that nearly 90% of the crimes in Australia, New Zealand and the US are perpetrated by people who live in the same country.

Of course. However, the strong desire to (quite rightly) protect one's family and oneself from "miscreants" is something that has much greater prominence in the US.

Given we both seem to agree that much crime perpetrated in the US is carried out by US citizens we can only conclude that the rate of firearm crime in the US is due to some aspect of society unique to your country. This unique aspect appears to revolve around the widespread availability of firearms.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 94):
I never feared for my safety from him even though he was killing dozens of Canadian women.

Obviously you do fear for your safety as you have loaded firearms on every level of your house!

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 94):
Violent crime includes rape. Are you ok with your wife being raped? That's a serious question. If you could protect your wife or daughter from being raped by owning a firearm would you?

Of course not. I don't have a wife or daughter of my own, but like you I would like to think I would have the courage to lay down my life for them if need be. However, this still brings me back to a point I have mentioned earlier.

If a firearm becomes much easier for me to obtain, it becomes much easier for a criminal to obtain. I hold no advantage whatsoever by having a firearm to protect my family. I only hold an advantage if I am the only one who has a firearm in a conflict situation, but that outcome would be extremely unlikely.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 94):
Many women in the US carry a handgun to protect themselves from being raped.

Again, these women only hold an advantage if they are the only ones in possession of a firearm. It also relies heavily on the assumption that a would-be rapist gives their victim the chance to foresee, react and prevent the situation in the first place.

Regards, JetMech

[Edited 2011-05-02 23:10:32]

[Edited 2011-05-02 23:11:17]
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
Quokka
Posts: 1315
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:26 pm

RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Tue May 03, 2011 6:18 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 94):
The US isn't that far ahead of Canada and Finland.

Reading the statistics in the link provided suggests quite the opposite in relation to homicide. Figures are deaths per 100,000 so I am not sure how the total populations and geographic spread are relevant. The total number of gun-related deaths in the US and Finland may not be all that different, but the majority of deaths in Finland (from the statistics that you provided) are through suicide.

Canada - Total 4.78 Homicide 0.76 Suicide 3.72 Unintended 0.22
Finland - Total 6.86 Homicide 0.86 Suicide 5.78 Unintended 0.12
US - Total 10.2-15.22 Homicide 7.07 Suicide 7.35 Unintended 0.59

I don't know what the figures were meant to show or how they are meant to be interpreted. Those figures are complicated by different years evidence being compared and the rounding method is not explained, but allowing for those criticisms it does not suggest that gun homicide rates are anywhere near the same and even on suicide the figure is twice that of Canada.

However, the continued possession of unlicensed and illegal firearms by criminals and gangs in Australia continues to be a problem. We may not see many multiple homicides like the one at Port Arthur that prompted Howard's "Buy Back" campaign and amnesty from the surrender of unlicensed firearms, and for that we can be thankful, but there were never that many such murders to be begin with. I am more worried about the high number of people who resort to suicide leaving emotionally gutted families behind. Hopefully the Beyond Blue initiatives will have an impact.
 
canoecarrier
Posts: 2573
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:20 pm

RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Tue May 03, 2011 6:31 am

Quoting jetmech (Reply 96):
Obviously you do fear for your safety as you have loaded firearms on every level of your house!

I've already said, you wouldn't feel like you were tripping over guns if you came in my house. i also think that the thread starter would think I had guns all over the place if I lived in a one floor home. He just doesn't like guns. Period. But, I do live in an urban area, as great as it is, crime is all around me. Not always violent, but it is here.

Quoting jetmech (Reply 96):
If a firearm becomes much easier for me to obtain, it becomes much easier for a criminal to obtain. I hold no advantage whatsoever by having a firearm to protect my family. I only hold an advantage if I am the only one who has a firearm in a conflict situation, but that outcome would be extremely unlikely.

You're making the assumption that guns aren't easy for people to obtain illegally. Somewhere up thread I said, it's easier for someone with a criminal background to obtain that me. There are several ways, like straw purchases where a person they know gets paid several hundred dollars more than the gun is worth to license it in their name then give it to someone else, or to break into someone's house and steal them. There was a shooting today in Seattle where two people were shot at a middle school. The gun was illegal and the shooter legally couldn't have owned the gun. No way more laws will protect me from that kind of crime. It will only take legal guns out of law abiding citizens.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Tough Gun Laws- Good For Australia

Tue May 03, 2011 7:16 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 98):
I've already said, you wouldn't feel like you were tripping over guns if you came in my house

Well, with that said, you'd still have 3 more guns, NOT to trip over in my house than yours. Whether or not one trip's, is very much dependent on where you keep them I suppose.   

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 98):
i also think that the thread starter would think I had guns all over the place if I lived in a one floor home.

Then you think wrong, although, maybe not !

Maybe you'd have the same number, who knows

If your one floor house is the same square meterage as your 3 level house, one could be forgiven for thinking that you'd need to have at least as many guns, so that you would have one "close by" and handy when needed, otherwise there's not much point is there, so maybe tripping is not out of the question ?

So, in conclusion, same meterage in the single story house as the 3 level house, probably same number of guns.

Gosh, all that and I didn't have to use a Professor or University.   

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 98):
He just doesn't like guns.

Really ?
Please indicate, not just to me, but to us all here, where I have said I don't like gun's. Guns have a purpose in society, yes, I'm not disputing that at all.
All I have said to you is that I don't feel the need to own a gun, let alone 3 in one house, like your own situation.

Weren't you the one several post, back accusing me of "judging you". Gee your not half bad at it yourself really are you.

Anyway, as I said in my initial post...

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
tough attitude towards gun ownership in Australia in 1996 has been a great success.

It has worked for us here in Australia and that's really all that's important.

If you choose not to take the report seriously, then thats up to you.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”

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