futurepilot16
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Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Thu May 12, 2011 4:42 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnCqv...jS4&feature=player_embedded#at=294

So apparently, a teacher at a Texas High School has been suspended after two videos of fights in his classroom were uploaded to the internet. This is so absurd to me that i'm almost speechless. This teacher is NOT a security guard...how dare the school suspend him for not physically getting involved in a fight with males much more younger and physical than him? I'm sure teachers have intervened in fights in the past and not only have been hurt, but also SUED by parents who were upset that this adult physically touch their kid.

first of all I completely disagree with what both commentators Cenk and Ana had to say.

My response to the first video of the kid getting punched in the face is that he needs to man the F**K up, grow a pair, and learn how to defend himself. Stop looking towards an old man to protect you.

The second video of the two kids squaring off, my response is that if the school wants to avoid situations like this, they should have more security in their school and have a better response system for teachers to get a hold of security in such a situation...don't suspend the guy for not wanting to get punched in the face etc. What a cowardly act by this school district.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
Maverick623
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RE: Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Thu May 12, 2011 4:50 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Thread starter):

My response to the first video of the kid getting punched in the face is that he needs to man the F**K up, grow a pair, and learn how to defend himself.

There's no shame in running away, especially if the aggressor is twice your size.

If the kid doesn't want to get bullied, then yes, he should learn how to defend himself. But if he knows it's just a bunch of BS that will go away soon, then by all means take the abuse.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Thread starter):
Texas

I betcha the teacher could have pulled out a gun, and gotten away with it.  
Quoting futurepilot16 (Thread starter):
This teacher is NOT a security guard...how dare the school suspend him for not physically getting involved in a fight

Did you see the video? The teacher didn't even try to call for help. He just stood there and watched. Intervening doesn't just mean getting physical, it also means calling for assistance.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Ken777
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RE: Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Thu May 12, 2011 5:05 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Thread starter):
My response to the first video of the kid getting punched in the face is that he needs to man the F**K up, grow a pair, and learn how to defend himself

Bull.

A bully punches a kid in the face then kick the bully out of school. Expel him, have his parents take him home and find another school. That happens a few times and the kid might learn that being a bully is being looser.

We simply do not need bullies in schools. As long as they get away with pushing or punching they will only continue. Nip it in the bud

Quoting futurepilot16 (Thread starter):
Stop looking towards an old man to protect you.

And if you are not skilled at being a bully yourself maybe you should have a gun?

What about bullies molesting girls? Same standards? Let the bullies get away with it because you don't want teachers to be in charge of their class rooms?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 1):
If the kid doesn't want to get bullied, then yes, he should learn how to defend himself.

No, the school should learn how to quickly and effectively handle bullies.

And, again, what should be done if the bullies go after the girls? How would you handle that?

Personally, I think the teacher needs to be fired. The school system also needs to review their policies and procedures and ensure that they are effective. Finally the remaining teachers need to be fully exposed to any training needed to ensure bullies are immediately taken care of.
 
dl021
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RE: Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Thu May 12, 2011 5:30 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):
We simply do not need bullies in schools. As long as they get away with pushing or punching they will only continue. Nip it in the bud

How do you plan on dealing with human nature, which guarantees that a certain amount of bullying is going to happen, both physical and emotional?
Children need to be taught how to deal with bullies moreso than adults. Adults intervening every time teaches children to look to authority figures to bail them out whenever someone or something bad is happening to them.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):
Personally, I think the teacher needs to be fired

What if it's school policy? And the point about parents suing teachers and schools when physical interchanges occur is also valid. That said, if youre a teacher and you cannot manage such situations and are unable to break up fights that occur (and they do) you may want to reconsider your calling. The teacher needs retraining, and the supervisors need firing, unless that teacher was violating policy and has already been counseled.

Teachers are hamstrung by litigious parents who want their kids to be educated (or at least babysat) but don't want the teachers saying anything bad or "mean" about the children (and by implication the parents and the job they're doing raising the children), and their lawyers who think that suing governments (via the school system) is a great way to make a living.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):
The school system also needs to review their policies and procedures and ensure that they are effective

Agreed....but what should the school do differently? Should the teacher be specifically authorized to intervene physically if necessary and shielded from litigation if a student is marked up by the physical intervention? What happens to the school system if the child is a large 15 year old and hurts the 63 year old female teacher who tries to intervene?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):
No, the school should learn how to quickly and effectively handle bullies.

Again...children need to handle the bullies themselves. What happens to the kids when they leave the school and there are no teachers to protect them? Bullies go after the weak who wont defend themselves, and almost always seek the paths of least resistance. Most won't pursue difficult subjects if they fear for their own safety. Bullies usually lack real confidence and seek to bolster their self-image by diminishing others, using physical and emotional cruelty to accomplish their goals. Children who learn to defend themselves, in both realms, emotional and physical interaction, are going to be more prepared for real life as it comes. Those that learn to hide behind their teachers and parents won't be ready.

Bullies are always going to be there. They need to be educated as well. A 14 year old bully doesn't need to be thrown out of school......he/she needs to be educated and guided by adults and peers who know better. That takes leadership and will....two things often seemingly lacking in modern schools for a variety of reasons. Mostly due to people not wishing to take responsibility for themselves and the lawyers/politicians who profit from that.
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futurepilot16
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RE: Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Thu May 12, 2011 5:30 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):

A bully punches a kid in the face then kick the bully out of school. Expel him, have his parents take him home and find another school. That happens a few times and the kid might learn that being a bully is being looser.

We simply do not need bullies in schools. As long as they get away with pushing or punching they will only continue. Nip it in the bud

When i was younger, I used to get picked on because of my glasses (before I got contacts). In the 8th grade, a so-called "bully" said something to me. I always defended myself verbally... he decided to make it physical. He shoved me and I swung back and bloodied his nose, took my 10 day suspension and didn't complain...You think that kid, or anyone else messed with me after that? I never had a reputation as a badass and got along with everyone.

I never want to see other people living with low self esteem because they're scared to defend themselves. Even if the bully is bigger than you, there's a way to defend yourself. I've seen too many people who's life was ruined because they got picked on non-stop.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):
What about bullies molesting girls? Same standards?

That's a completely different issue. Someone can actually get arrested, suspended/expelled for that. You're comparing apples and oranges on two different scales.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 3):

Again...children need to handle the bullies themselves. What happens to the kids when they leave the school and there are no teachers to protect them? Bullies go after the weak who wont defend themselves, and almost always seek the paths of least resistance.

My point exactly

[Edited 2011-05-12 10:32:15]
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Thu May 12, 2011 5:45 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 3):
What if it's school policy?

I assume he wouldn't have gotten suspended if it was school policy.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 4):
When i was younger, I used to get picked on because of my glasses (before I got contacts). In the 8th grade, a so-called "bully" said something to me. I always defended myself verbally... he decided to make it physical. He shoved me and I swung back and bloodied his nose, took my 10 day suspension and didn't complain...You think that kid, or anyone else messed with me after that? I never had a reputation as a badass and got along with everyone.

While that's a nice story, I myself never had a desire to get a 10-day suspension.

I got picked on my fair share in school (moreso in elementary and middle schools). Probably not much more than anyone else, and luckily it never turned physical.

The problem I see with kids fighting back or whatever is that you can accidentally do some serious damage to someone. I mean, someone's pushing you around, and you fight back and hit them square in the eye or something by accident. They lose the eye, and my guess is that you get sued.
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2707200X
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RE: Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Thu May 12, 2011 6:54 pm

It seems that people are almost defending bulling if not so. Teasing will happen, thats part of life but persistent bulling will lead to emotional distress especially if there is nothing that can be done by the victim like height, body appearance/development, sexuality, faith, race, accent, glasses what ever. If bulling is persistent the victim should get the attention of the authorities. Enough of this boys will be boys, kids will be kids fight after school in the playground crap, it is time for the bullies to man up, grow up and respect others.
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Maverick623
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RE: Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Thu May 12, 2011 7:05 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):

And, again, what should be done if the bullies go after the girls?

That's an incredibly sexist remark.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 5):
I myself never had a desire to get a 10-day suspension.

The problem with this whole thing is this zero-tolerance bullshit, where you can literally get suspended for curling up into a ball when someone starts swinging at you, because you were "involved in a fight". This has the effect of causing people to just swing back for the hell of it, because they're in trouble anyways.

I too swung back once, thankfully about a year before "zero tolerance" became the norm. He got a bloody nose, I had a sore thumb from the guy twisting it behind my back. The good thing was a teacher saw the whole incident, and was actually walking towards us when I decided to end it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):
Expel him, have his parents take him home and find another school. That happens a few times and the kid might learn that being a bully is being looser.

Or, he gets in his head that he can taunt and tease and beat up anyone he wants, and all he does is change schools and takes his reputation with him.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Mir
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RE: Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Thu May 12, 2011 7:20 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 1):
Intervening doesn't just mean getting physical, it also means calling for assistance.

   For the teacher to just stand there is unacceptable, and he deserves to be suspended.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 3):
Should the teacher be specifically authorized to intervene physically if necessary and shielded from litigation if a student is marked up by the physical intervention?

Absolutely. They shouldn't be required to intervene physically, but they should be able to. They should certainly be required to attempt to intervene verbally and call for assistance should that not work.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 3):
What happens to the school system if the child is a large 15 year old and hurts the 63 year old female teacher who tries to intervene?

Hold the child and/or parents responsible for the damages.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
dl021
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RE: Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Thu May 12, 2011 7:32 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 5):

While that's a nice story, I myself never had a desire to get a 10-day suspension.

I got picked on my fair share in school (moreso in elementary and middle schools). Probably not much more than anyone else, and luckily it never turned physical.

The problem I see with kids fighting back or whatever is that you can accidentally do some serious damage to someone. I mean, someone's pushing you around, and you fight back and hit them square in the eye or something by accident. They lose the eye, and my guess is that you get sued.

Fighting back is a term people hear and immediately assume the worst. Fighting back against emotional bullying is often just as tough as physical. I have to say I was picked on, so were plently of others. In general once a person is no longer an easy target they are eliminated from most bullying. Almost always children can rectify bullying on their own if they get the right guidance, and the rare cases where a kid is bullying uncontrollaby ought to be recognized and dealt with by parents and teachers. But a kid needs to stand his or her ground and deal with the bullies in most instances otherwise they're going to be victims their entire lives..

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 6):
It seems that people are almost defending bulling if not so. Teasing will happen, thats part of life but persistent bulling will lead to emotional distress especially if there is nothing that can be done by the victim like height, body appearance/development, sexuality, faith, race, accent, glasses what ever. If bulling is persistent the victim should get the attention of the authorities. Enough of this boys will be boys, kids will be kids fight after school in the playground crap, it is time for the bullies to man up, grow up and respect others.

I by no means approve of bullying (unless it's getting me what I want " ". That said, it's going to happen and you can't legistlate it or regulate it out of existence. Pretending there are authority based, non-violent solutions for everything is ostrich like.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):
The problem with this whole thing is this zero-tolerance bullshit, where you can literally get suspended for curling up into a ball when someone starts swinging at you, because you were "involved in a fight". This has the effect of causing people to just swing back for the hell of it, because they're in trouble anyways
Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
Hold the child and/or parents responsible for the damages.

Zero tolerance policies are in general pipe dreams created by people who want to wish problems away. Human judgement has to be used, and people are more and more often penalized for making any type of judgement call.

Parents refuse to take responsibility for most of what their children do (generally as a result of their upbringing) and will sue teachers and school systems either to gain some validations (and cash) or to avoid being sued themselves.
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RE: Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Thu May 12, 2011 9:39 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 9):

Zero tolerance policies are in general pipe dreams created by people who want to wish problems away.

And also by people who are too wussy to say: "This is your fault and you attacked him, so anything that happened after that is your responsibility."

No, you have to be "fair."

Which means you have to be incredibly unfair.
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falstaff
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RE: Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Thu May 12, 2011 9:47 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
For the teacher to just stand there is unacceptable, and he deserves to be suspended.


I agree and I am a teacher.

No I don't have to get involved, but I have to do something. If I stood there and didn't even call an administrator down to my class you can bet I would be suspended.

I had a kid start a fight with another kid in my class two years ago. They were on the ground hitting each other and I picked one up by the shirt and threw him off. I have taught ten years and that is the only time that ever happened.

If fights are happening in a classroom on a regular basis that teaching has poor control. A fight every now and then is bound to happen. Most of our fights happen in the lunch room or hallway between classes.
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MarSciGuy
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RE: Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Thu May 12, 2011 10:54 pm

As a male teacher/ teacher candidate I am NOT allowed to physically touch students... I think some leniency is built in, but not too much. If two kids are fighting we can physically get in between the two of them but much more then that and we can be held liable...at least that is what my take on hat I have heard has been...

However, doing nothing at all is equally unacceptable.
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Mir
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RE: Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Fri May 13, 2011 3:21 am

Quoting dl021 (Reply 9):
Zero tolerance policies are in general pipe dreams created by people who want to wish problems away. Human judgement has to be used, and people are more and more often penalized for making any type of judgement call.

I'm not a fan of zero tolerance policies either, but holding the children responsible for damage incurred during a fight is not a zero tolerance policy.

-Mir
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Maverick623
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RE: Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Fri May 13, 2011 3:36 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
I'm not a fan of zero tolerance policies either, but holding the children responsible for damage incurred during a fight is not a zero tolerance policy.

I agree to an extent. These days, if there's a fight, there's not even an investigation. The involved parties are both suspended for 10 days automatically, and that's usually the end of it. Instead of researching the causes and preventing fights from even starting, administrators and school boards bury their heads in the sand.

Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 12):
As a male teacher/ teacher candidate I am NOT allowed to physically touch students

I think it should be like hockey: If they're standing, let them go until an administrator or the cops arrive. As soon as they hit the floor, you go in and break it up yourself, because serious injury can occur if one kid gets on top and pummels away.

I understand the liability issues involved in becoming physical with a student (especially a minor), but at the end of the day, if somebody's in serious danger, you have to intervene if possible.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Teacher Suspended For Not Intervening In Fight

Fri May 13, 2011 3:39 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):

The problem with this whole thing is this zero-tolerance bullshit, where you can literally get suspended for curling up into a ball when someone starts swinging at you, because you were "involved in a fight". This has the effect of causing people to just swing back for the hell of it, because they're in trouble anyways.

Yeah, pretty much. "Zero-tolerance" anything is a slippery slope. You're basically saying that you could have the best and most reasonable case supporting what you just did, but you're going to pay for it anyway.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 9):
Fighting back against emotional bullying is often just as tough as physical.

Very much so. Any bullying I've dealt with in my life (which, really, has probably been minor compared to many others) was mostly emotional.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 9):
Fighting back is a term people hear and immediately assume the worst. Fighting back against emotional bullying is often just as tough as physical. I have to say I was picked on, so were plently of others. In general once a person is no longer an easy target they are eliminated from most bullying. Almost always children can rectify bullying on their own if they get the right guidance, and the rare cases where a kid is bullying uncontrollaby ought to be recognized and dealt with by parents and teachers. But a kid needs to stand his or her ground and deal with the bullies in most instances otherwise they're going to be victims their entire lives..

I certainly agree with that. But there's no shame in picking your battles. Especially at that age, there are some behaviors in certain kids that you, as another kid, aren't going to be able to change.

At the end of the day, none of this is black and white. But zero-tolerance policies treat it as such.

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
I'm not a fan of zero tolerance policies either, but holding the children responsible for damage incurred during a fight is not a zero tolerance policy.

Holding whomever started or exacerbated the fight responsible is certainly not zero-tolerance. But is someone who's just trying to defend him/herself really responsible for damages incurred?
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".

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