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fxramper
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Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 2:52 pm

Unclear on what the legal parameters for this will be with TSA at the major Texas airports now. I'm guessing more states will follow suit.   

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/05/13/t...bans-offensive-security-pat-downs/
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 3:12 pm

Quoting fxramper (Thread starter):
Unclear on what the legal parameters for this will be with TSA at the major Texas airports now. I'm guessing more states will follow suit.

It'll go down in a court of law. But in the mean time, a few TSA workers might get carted off by the local cops and have to spend a few days in jail, which will make the remaining workers think very carefully about this.
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NIKV69
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 3:41 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
But in the mean time, a few TSA workers might get carted off by the local cops and have to spend a few days in jail,

Or give AQ of a lone wolf an opening to get something on an aircraft. Though I usually support TX in everything they do here they should let the TSA do what they have to or what they feel they have to to keep our aircraft safe.
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ShyFlyer
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 3:49 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):
they should let the TSA do what they have to or what they feel they have to to keep our aircraft safe.


TSA hasn't a damn clue what it's doing. The only thing that has stopped another terrorist act aboard an aircraft is luck.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
lowrider
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 4:26 pm

Good. If nothing else, it will force the TSA to attempt to defend some of these policies in a rational manner.
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Ken777
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 5:25 pm

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 3):
TSA hasn't a damn clue what it's doing. The only thing that has stopped another terrorist act aboard an aircraft is luck.

I'll disagree with that statement. When I've flown over the past years the TSA (and their overseas counterparts) have done a pretty good job.

Those lacking a clue are the silly state legislatures in Texas that came up with the idea of such a dumb law. Maybe the TSA will actually honor that law and simply reject any pax who would be "patted down" in other states. Turning away enough pax might be a fast way to get that silly law repealed.
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 5:35 pm

This will most likely go down as unenforceable. You won't see state and local officials arresting federal officials for enforcing federal policy.
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D L X
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 6:27 pm

Not this ish again.

Texas needs to understand something: they are subordinate to the federal government. This law is unconstitutional. I would not be surprised if the local cops that attempt to arrest TSA agents end up under federal arrest themselves.


And seriously, didn't we just discuss this topic last month?
 
lowrider
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 6:42 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 5):
Texas needs to understand something: they are subordinate to the federal government.

Not in all matters. Read the 10th Amendment again.
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NIKV69
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 6:44 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 6):
Not in all matters. Read the 10th Amendment again.

Very true but when it comes to airline safety they need to stand back and let the Feds handle it.
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lowrider
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 6:47 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):
Very true but when it comes to airline safety they need to stand back and let the Feds handle it.

Not if the Feds overstep their bounds and start treading on personal rights. At least it will get a day in court now.
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D L X
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 6:58 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 6):
Not in all matters. Read the 10th Amendment again.

Right. Feel free to point out what part of the 10th Amendment says that local governments can arrest federal agents performing federal activity.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 8):
Not if the Feds overstep their bounds and start treading on personal rights.

The feds aren't overstepping their power.



I don't see this thread going in any direction other than the one the umpteen other threads on this have gone.
I don't see anyone presenting any new arguments, just rehashing the ones they have stated earlier, regardless of whether they are backed up by law or other proof.   
 
lowrider
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 7:02 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 9):
I don't see anyone presenting any new arguments, just rehashing the ones they have stated earlier, regardless of whether they are backed up by law or other proof.  

The Texas state legislature has presented the new argument. This time it is based on state nullification. I really hope this gets taken up by the Supreme Court quickly, as it will make for an interesting decision, one whose ramifications could be far reaching.
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D L X
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 8:00 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 10):
This time it is based on state nullification

1) Do you have a source that says this? TIA.
2) Nullification in and of itself is unconstitutional.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 10):
I really hope this gets taken up by the Supreme Court quickly

Nothing gets taken up by the Supreme Court quickly. There are procedures that have to be followed before something is even on the path to the Supreme Court, and the first is filing a complaint in a US District Court. Where is the complaint going to come from? A Habeas Corpus petition from the state police officer in jail for trying to arrest a TSA agent?

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 10):
one whose ramifications could be far reaching.

The ramifications of a ruling that a state can override federal law would be far reaching indeed, but in the opposite direction of the one you think.
 
lowrider
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 8:08 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 11):
1) Do you have a source that says this? TIA.

Would a paper by Thomas Jefferson satisfy you? What does TIA mean?

Quoting D L X (Reply 11):
There are procedures that have to be followed before something is even on the path to the Supreme Court, and the first is filing a complaint in a US District Court. Where is the complaint going to come from?

No kidding, but there are certain cases where the Supreme Court has sole jurisdiction. I think a case between the Federal Government and a State Government might be one of them, but I can't recall off the top of my head.

Quoting D L X (Reply 11):
The ramifications of a ruling that a state can override federal law would be far reaching indeed, but in the opposite direction of the one you think.

Oh? Why don't you keep reading my mind then, and tell me which direction it would break?
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Ken777
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 8:14 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 8):
At least it will get a day in court now.

I doubt that. You would need a cop who was too dumb to walk and chew gum at the same time to arrest a TSA officer for doing their job.

The compromise that the TSA can offer is to simply refuse entry to airside for all pax that wish to enjoy the protection of this silly law.

In other words, they can drive, take the bus, etc.
 
D L X
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 8:22 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 12):
Would a paper by Thomas Jefferson satisfy you?

No, because Thomas Jefferson never wrote anything about the Texas law. So, where did you hear that this time the law is based on nullification (illegal)?

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 12):
What does TIA mean?

It means "Thanks in advance." In other words, I'm not knocking you, and I'm trying to be polite.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 12):
o kidding, but there are certain cases where the Supreme Court has sole jurisdiction. I think a case between the Federal Government and a State Government might be one of them, but I can't recall off the top of my head.

The Supreme Court takes _original_ jurisdiction (that's the term you're looking for) in lawsuits between two states. That is not the case here. Suing the federal government, or the federal government suing a state starts in the District Court like everyone else. And even suits between states have been met with EXTREME resistance by the Supreme Court, which simply put, does not have the capacity to conduct a trial. I bet in the last 100 years, there have been zero cases where the Supreme Court accepted original jurisdiction.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 12):
Oh? Why don't you keep reading my mind then, and tell me which direction it would break?

I don't have to read your mind. I can read your many posts on this topic from the last year that shows what you think about the scanners.
 
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 8:24 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 8):
Not if the Feds overstep their bounds and start treading on personal rights. At least it will get a day in court now.

National security trumps States rights.
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andz
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 8:35 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):
Or give AQ of a lone wolf an opening to get something on an aircraft.

What does Aloha Airlines have to do with this?
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
NIKV69
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 10:27 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 8):
Not if the Feds overstep their bounds and start treading on personal rights. At least it will get a day in court now.

As opposed to letting someone on a plane with explosives funny how the same people would turn on the Gov for not keeping them safe. The TSA is not treading on our rights. They are trying to keep people from dying.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
The compromise that the TSA can offer is to simply refuse entry to airside for all pax that wish to enjoy the protection of this silly law.

Greyhound would love the business..

Quoting Andz (Reply 16):
What does Aloha Airlines have to do with this?

Nothing but Al Qaida does.
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par13del
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 10:40 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
The compromise that the TSA can offer is to simply refuse entry to airside for all pax that wish to enjoy the protection of this silly law.

One would then expect the state to withdraw all of the services they provide to the airport itself, can the feds get the a/c in the air for those pax who chose to ignore the state law?

There is a balance between state and federal rights, this issue is not just about interstate commerce, the TSA pat downs take place for all flights including those within states so its not that simple.
 
Curtisman
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 10:43 pm

Nice to see one of your states finally taking a stand that makes sense. The pat downs do nothing to protect you folks from someone who really wants to do damage.

Cheers!
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Maverick623
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Fri May 13, 2011 11:38 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
a few TSA workers might get carted off by the local cops

I would love to see one try.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 6):

Not in all matters. Read the 10th Amendment again.

Laws dealing with national security are well established as being a power enumerated to the Feds.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 12):
Would a paper by Thomas Jefferson satisfy you?

I have yet to see a SCOTUS decision that says someone's personal opinion overrides the Constitution.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):

National security trumps States rights.

But they don't trump individual rights without due process and probable cause, except in a time of war (as declared by Congress). Even then, there are restrictions.



While I think the TSA's activities violate the 4th Amendment and civil rights, states cannot overrule the Feds by legislation (unless it's a Constitutional Amendment via a national convention). I think this is just a populist showing and/or a way to force the issue into the Courts.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 12:07 am

I could see this being abused. I bet some supposedly "prudish" closest-whore would take advantage of this law just to file a massive lawsuit.
 
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 12:43 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
Laws dealing with national security are well established as being a power enumerated to the Feds.

Yes, but the TSA patdown does nothing to enhance "national security". If it did that might be a different story as it would have a demonstrable impact and then the "search without cause" might be defensible. But it is not now and the law does not support the concept of "well they might commit a crime so its OK" in a broadcloth continuous application.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
a way to force the issue into the Courts.

  
And it needs to be tested. I myself wish everyone would opt-out of the scan as that would end the feel-up practice quickly because of the labor required. The threatened "well then everyone will miss their flights and it will be their fault" would not hold up.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
a few TSA workers might get carted off by the local cops

I would love to see one try.

Unless the TSA challenges the law preemptively and takes it court (which I do think is likely) this will have to happen somewhere is a show to cause it to go into the courts.

Tugg
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DocLightning
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 1:28 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 2):

Or give AQ of a lone wolf an opening to get something on an aircraft.

Oh no. The boogeyman might come!

Because TSA has caught a number of terrorists in the past.

That number is ZERO.
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D L X
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 2:08 am

Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 19):
Nice to see one of your states finally taking a stand that makes sense. The pat downs do nothing to protect you folks from someone who really wants to do damage.

You do realize that they do x-ray scanning and patdowns in Canada, right?
 
Ken777
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 2:12 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 18):
One would then expect the state to withdraw all of the services they provide to the airport itself, can the feds get the a/c in the air for those pax who chose to ignore the state law?

States waging a battle like that will simply loose. Shut off services and ATC simply re-routes flights away from the state. Departures also depend on Federal level permissions.

No way a state can win that one, especially when one considers the impact on business and tourism.

Quoting par13del (Reply 18):
There is a balance between state and federal rights, this issue is not just about interstate commerce, the TSA pat downs take place for all flights including those within states so its not that simple.

There may be some desired "balance" but TSA controls access to airside. And even intrastate flights can be flown into major buildings within a state.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
That number is ZERO.

Now try to find the number of weapons that are confiscated by TSA every month. Same with other countries - I remember being told of the large box filled daily at LHR by their security staff.

As for the terrorists, the objective is to identify and capture them before they make it to the airports. That is somewhat hidden because of security, but it is an active program in this country.

ow, with the SEALs taking care of OBL security in the field and at the airport will take on a bit more importance for a while.
 
andz
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 3:53 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 17):
Quoting Andz (Reply 16):
What does Aloha Airlines have to do with this?

Nothing but Al Qaida does.

My point exactly. Jargon for jargon's sake.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 5:11 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):

Now try to find the number of weapons that are confiscated by TSA every month.

Depends on what you call a "weapon." But if they suspected someone was a terrorist, then they wouldn't just confiscate, would they?
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Tugger
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 6:09 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
Now try to find the number of weapons that are confiscated by TSA every month. Same with other countries - I remember being told of the large box filled daily at LHR by their security staff.

Are any of those confiscation due to the "feel up"?


Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
As for the terrorists, the objective is to identify and capture them before they make it to the airports. That is somewhat hidden because of security, but it is an active program in this country.

Correct. That is where the $20billion that is spent on the TSA needs to be directed. The feeling up of passengers does not do what it is supposed to do better than the intelligence based methods.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
Now, with the SEALs taking care of OBL security in the field and at the airport will take on a bit more importance for a while.

Really? What leads you to believe that? Is there behind the scenes intelligence that is indicating that?

Tugg
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There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Maverick623
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 6:25 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 22):
this will have to happen somewhere is a show to cause it to go into the courts.

Um, no. The law itself is reason enough to take it to court; you do not actually have to enforce it.

Also, any cop that arrests a person carrying out their federally mandated job, based on a state law prohibiting that job, will soon find himself charged with a felony and unemployed. Good luck finding one.

Quoting par13del (Reply 18):

One would then expect the state to withdraw all of the services they provide to the airport itself

Most airports in the US are managed and serviced by municipalities. I don't know of any that are directly managed by a state.

Even still, airports are required by the FAA to maintain a certain level of services, based on what flies in. So if a state were to withdraw all locally provided services, the airport would shut down.

Quoting par13del (Reply 18):
the TSA pat downs take place for all flights including those within states so its not that simple.

Actually, TSA screening is only required for flights with more than 50 seats, or for access into a terminal area with direct access to gates that have such flights. There are several airports with separate commuter terminals that don't have any TSA screening, mostly in Alaska.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):

Now try to find the number of weapons that are confiscated by TSA every month.

And try to find the number that aren't. (Hint: during tests, the average failure rate is around 75%. Guns and bombs/bomb-making materials are the items used most often)
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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fxramper
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 8:19 am

Was comical seeing TSA handle an infant child like a water bottle and have the mother remove the diaper for suspected positive swab of bomb materials.

Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 19):
Nice to see one of your states finally taking a stand that makes sense. The pat downs do nothing to protect you folks from someone who really wants to do damage.

  
 
dxing
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 11:42 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
It'll go down in a court of law. But in the mean time, a few TSA workers might get carted off by the local cops and have to spend a few days in jail, which will make the remaining workers think very carefully about this.

Wow, a thread on Texas where Doc isn't bashing the State? Hell must have surely frozen over.

Quoting D L X (Reply 5):
Texas needs to understand something: they are subordinate to the federal government.

The government needs to understand the public, which it serves, doesn't like the way it is doing its job. Of course if Texas were to appropriate monies to help local airports hire private screeners to get rid of the TSA, the TSA would not allow that anymore, even thought Federal Law was passed to allow just that to happen.

http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-06-166

In November 2004, as required by law, the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) began allowing all commercial airports to apply to use private screeners in lieu of federal screeners as part of its Screening Partnership Program (SPP).


http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/01/29/tsa.private/index.html?hpt=T2

Mica said tests show that private screeners perform "statistically significantly better" than government screeners in tests of airport checkpoints. But the Government Accountability Office says it "did not notice any difference" during covert checkpoint testing in 2007. Both groups failed to find concealed bomb components, the GAO said.


On a side an unrelated note, for those of you who still say there is no media bias.....

Rep. John Mica, a Republican from Florida, wrote a letter encouraging airports to privatize their airport screeners, saying they would be more responsive to the public.

Farther down in the story....

On Friday, Rep. Bennie Thompson of Mississippi, the ranking member on the House Homeland Security Committee, lauded Pistole's decision.

So what party does Rep. Thompson belong too? Well you'd just have to look up the fact he is a democrat now wouldn't you?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
lowrider
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 1:25 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
No, because Thomas Jefferson never wrote anything about the Texas law. So, where did you hear that this time the law is based on nullification

No, but he did write about the relationship between state law, federal law, and how states are a check on federal power. See the following for a summary. Sorry for using a wiki reference, but it is the first non-subscription source I came across.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principles_of_'98

Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
It means "Thanks in advance." In other words, I'm not knocking you, and I'm trying to be polite.

Understood. I am just not up to speed on all the shorthand.

Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
I don't have to read your mind.

Then some things might surprise you. I would hope that this is upheld in the courts. In the big picture, I don't think the states were ever meant to be a perfectly homoganous legal mass.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22):
Laws dealing with national security are well established as being a power enumerated to the Feds.

Fine, but I in order to claim this, they should prove that what they are doing actually advances national security.
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davescj
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 1:45 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 17):
National security trumps States rights.
Quoting par13del (Reply 20):
There is a balance between state and federal rights, this issue is not just about interstate commerce, the TSA pat downs take place for all flights including those within states so its not that simple.

@STT757, the issue I think is less than national security and more about interstate commerce. In as much as air travel is regulated as interstate travel, the federal government has jurisdiction in the matter.

Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 21):
Nice to see one of your states finally taking a stand that makes sense. The pat downs do nothing to protect you folks from someone who really wants to do damage.

I do agree with this. The pat downs are not useful. The issue is finding a NON invasive way to check pax. Has anyone noticed that Israel has better results by having MULTIPLE people watching as people are asked the same questions? as well as having multiple security checks that are not as invasive?

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 34):
Fine, but I in order to claim this, they should prove that what they are doing actually advances national security

I agree. I had the same problem with the so called Patriot act.

Dave
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
D L X
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 8:41 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 34):

No, but he did write about the relationship between state law, federal law, and how states are a check on federal power.

1) Jefferson's writings are not remotely law.
2) We fought a big war after Jefferson died that absolutely changed everything, most notably, abrogating the 10th Amendment.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why people don't realize that the 10th Amendment means dramatically less after the Civil War and the 14th Amendment.
 
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par13del
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 10:29 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 31):
Most airports in the US are managed and serviced by municipalities. I don't know of any that are directly managed by a state.

I should have used the words local authorties not state to be technically accurate, you are of course correct.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 31):
Even still, airports are required by the FAA to maintain a certain level of services, based on what flies in. So if a state were to withdraw all locally provided services, the airport would shut down.

Which was my point, the poster I responded to seemed to think that in a dispute, the TSA could simply refuse pax the right to travel and all would be well, the local authorities may not be able to legally shut down the airport but withdrawal of their services would have the same effect. Both sides have to work together to make an airport function, indeed to also keep the country safe, since 9/11 the feds have increased their prescence locally, based on the US systems of laws and the constitution they may very well overstep some boundaries. Every year the supreme court has cases dealing with state / loacl and federal rights, not as much cut and dried as some may think.

Quoting davescj (Reply 35):
the issue I think is less than national security and more about interstate commerce. In as much as air travel is regulated as interstate travel, the federal government has jurisdiction in the matter.

This is true, but the basis of any challenge will be how much of the "incidental" activities that take place before travel commences fall soley under federal jurisdiction and does not infringe on state and local rights.
Security is a must before travel, does that means that the feds can do, solicit / demand any information they want before allowing travel.
Example does one have to show a passport to travel from MIA-JFK or a local drivers license, must a drivers license in the sate of Florida show your nationality, what if the feds demand to know whether one is legally in the US before allowing you to travel on a domestic flight like the secure flight requirements for international pax?
Such requirements could require all US citizens to have passports for domestic travel, all states to ensure that drivers license show nationality.
Not saying they would do this, just pointing our that the TSA cannot simply put whatever rules they want in place under the guise of national security.
 
lowrider
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sat May 14, 2011 11:15 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 36):
Jefferson's writings are not remotely law.

As one of the authors, he, in addition to co-author Madison, might have some unique insights into the Constitution.

Quoting D L X (Reply 36):
2) We fought a big war after Jefferson died that absolutely changed everything, most notably, abrogating the 10th Amendment.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why people don't realize that the 10th Amendment means dramatically less after the Civil War and the 14th Amendment.

Ignored law does not equal repealed law. It simply means that people are ignoring what is inconvenient. If no one holds the Federal government accountable, it will increasingly ignore the defined limits on its power.
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sun May 15, 2011 12:07 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 38):
As one of the authors, he, in addition to co-author Madison, might have some unique insights into the Constitution.

Besides falling very far afield of the topic, you really need to give up on this argument. No writing by anyone, contemporaneous or not, has the effect of law. The law is the law. Not someone writing about the law, no matter how smart.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 38):
Ignored law does not equal repealed law.

False. The 10th Amendment is not "ignored law," it is ABROGATED law. The 14th Amendment specifically removes most of the 10th Amendment's kick, which is just a remainder in the first place.

In this case, you are the one that is ignoring that which is inconvenient.
 
lowrider
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sun May 15, 2011 12:50 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 39):
Besides falling very far afield of the topic, you really need to give up on this argument. No writing by anyone, contemporaneous or not, has the effect of law. The law is the law. Not someone writing about the law, no matter how smart.

You asked the origins of my argument and I answered, I think, in a polite manner. Don't blame me if it falls outside what you want to discuss. I think the opinion of one of the authors of a law on the meaning and application of that law is relevant.

Quoting D L X (Reply 39):
The 14th Amendment specifically removes most of the 10th Amendment's kick, which is just a remainder in the first place.

Sorry, but I don't see it. The only part of the 14th Amendment you could possibly be referring to is the Equal Protection Clause, which applies to individuals. I don't see how the citizenship clause or due process clause apply here. If anything, the due process clause would strengthen Texas's position. Perhaps you could elaborate on how the 14th Amendment abrogates the 10th?

Quote:
Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868.

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
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UAL747
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sun May 15, 2011 1:24 am

Anyone else think this is just political? States vs. Feds typical stuff that republicans love to do? Wasn't the governor of Texas also threatening secession not too long ago?

TSA needs to do what they are told to do. Offensive pat downs, perhaps, but flying is not a right. Flying without a pat down is not a right either. Deal with it, or take the train. I'm guessing those Texans who need to get to Washington are going to get sick of Amtrak really soon. Takes all day just to get out of Texas!

What really needs to happen is for people not wanting pat downs, they need an international background check type card. Or rather, something similar to a passport. They pay for it, but it lightens security for them, especially domestic. Otherwise, you'd be subject to pat downs or whatever the TSA wants you to. Country of origin and citizenship status should be taken into consideration. That's my solution.

Of course, in this type of background check, the only thing that would matter would be crimes of interest, country of interest, activities of interest, other crimes and activities shouldn't be considered. It would be completely voluntary of course, but if you don't do it, no fast lines.

UAL
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aa61hvy
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sun May 15, 2011 2:22 am

Well the new "law" is not being enforced. My fiance just flew DFW-SFO today and she was patted down by a female TSA agent. Her little hair clip deals were setting off the detectors apparently.

I might do my own TSA pat down on her, just in case  
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Curtisman
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sun May 15, 2011 3:29 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 26):
You do realize that they do x-ray scanning and patdowns in Canada, right?

Of course I realize that - sort of.

I do see the x-ray machines at some of our airports here in Canada - but I have not once seen one used. That doesn't mean they are not as I only fly about every 2 weeks and not every airport here has them. I'm sure some frequent flyers in the airports here in Canada that do have the x-ray machines might be able to provide more insight.

We don't get the same pat downs as in the USA - but I am only basing that on what I have seen on the news and read here. From what I see - US patdowns are quite offensive where private parts of a person are touched. Also we do not have to remove shoes when walking through metal detectors as you do in the US. I fly very frequently through the USA but have never had a patdown there so I cannot comment on personal experience  Smile

I do not know what happens here if someone refuses an x-ray - if they are ever used (every one I've seen here is blocked off with a barrier thing). I would assume you could then either walk through the metal detector or get a patdown. If the patdown was offensive I think there would be problems... but I don't know for sure as I've never done an x-ray here in Canada. When I've been patted down it is because I set off the metal detector and they just do a quick pat of the arms and legs - that's it. We don't even have to remove our shoes up here to go through an x-ray.

3 days ago I passed through 2 security processes in 2 different airports. At my first airport I was wearing a watch ( I can't believe I forgot to remove it after all these years of flying - but I was assisting a special needs person so it slipped my mind). The metal detector beeped and I was surprised as I rarely cause it to beep. The security guy called me over but I realized I had my watch on - so I simply handed it to the guy so he could run in through the x-ray and I walked out and then back in the metal detector - no beep- and I was sent on my way.

On my second flight - I took off my watch - no beep - just a thank you and have a great flight from the security folks - and off I went.

So, yes, I do realize we have x-ray and pat downs in Canada. Just not offensive and we realize up here too that most of this security stuff is a farce.

Cheers!

[Edited 2011-05-14 20:31:10]
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par13del
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sun May 15, 2011 11:49 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 41):
What really needs to happen is for people not wanting pat downs, they need an international background check type card. Or rather, something similar to a passport. They pay for it, but it lightens security for them, especially domestic. Otherwise, you'd be subject to pat downs or whatever the TSA wants you to. Country of origin and citizenship status should be taken into consideration. That's my solution.

Ok, I am definately not following you on this one, the pat down is supposed to be about security, ensuring that I am not carrying anything under my clothes, the only thing that can replace a pat down is some form of scanner, and yes pat downs are conducted on international flights.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 41):
but flying is not a right.

Neither is walking or driving down the street without being subject to stops, searches and seizures.
The train bombings in Spain, UK and Japan have not taken place in the US, heaven forbid if they were to happen and the TSA then put pat downs in place for trains and busses will you then acknowledge that they are also not a right?

Quoting davescj (Reply 35):
I do agree with this. The pat downs are not useful. The issue is finding a NON invasive way to check pax. Has anyone noticed that Israel has better results by having MULTIPLE people watching as people are asked the same questions? as well as having multiple security checks that are not as invasive?

It depends on what you are trying to accomplish, if it is security they have shown how it can be done, the initial argument against such style security in the US was based on numbers of persons required and profiling.
Well the numbders of TSA staff are / have increasing, and profiling is done on all over the place.

However, if it is about letting your citizens know that there is an authority to which they are subservient then fine, it is not about building confidence in security, after all, I'm willing to bet that the majority of confiscations take place from bags going thru x-ray machines versus Joe Blow packing his 9mm or knife in some holster on his body.
Such statistics will never be revealed because they may present evidence on the effectiveness or lack thereof of the pat downs.

I have no doubt that something came up in intelligence gathering that only pat downs could detect, and implementation would have removed the option for the bad guys, however, since every pax does not go thru the pat down a more sensible method of implementation could have accomplished the same thing.
 
UAL747
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sun May 15, 2011 3:36 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 44):
Ok, I am definately not following you on this one, the pat down is supposed to be about security, ensuring that I am not carrying anything under my clothes, the only thing that can replace a pat down is some form of scanner, and yes pat downs are conducted on international flights.

If you do an international background check done with a card or passport type document to prove you've had it done, you have less reason to be suspicious to TSA, therefore, you may be able to pass some security screenings or questioning. Not saying it would take away random pat downs, but it could be used for those frequent travelers. I believe it already exists in some parts of the world.

Quoting par13del (Reply 44):
Neither is walking or driving down the street without being subject to stops, searches and seizures.
The train bombings in Spain, UK and Japan have not taken place in the US, heaven forbid if they were to happen and the TSA then put pat downs in place for trains and busses will you then acknowledge that they are also not a right?

Can you please point out where I said trains buses or walking down the street or driving were rights? Are they subject to much less security? Yep, at least here in the US. And I believe that's what we are talking about.
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par13del
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sun May 15, 2011 4:01 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 45):
Can you please point out where I said trains buses or walking down the street or driving were rights?

You did not, and I'm not saying that you did, in relation to the TSA pat down your comment was.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 41):
Flying without a pat down is not a right either. Deal with it, or take the train. I'm guessing those Texans who need to get to Washington are going to get sick of Amtrak really soon. Takes all day just to get out of Texas!

My point was that if a disaster on trains that has occured in other countries happens in the US I would expect the TSA to enforce pat downs for trains, hence my question:

Quoting par13del (Reply 44):
The train bombings in Spain, UK and Japan have not taken place in the US, heaven forbid if they were to happen and the TSA then put pat downs in place for trains and busses will you then acknowledge that they are also not a right?
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 45):
If you do an international background check done with a card or passport type document to prove you've had it done, you have less reason to be suspicious to TSA, therefore, you may be able to pass some security screenings or questioning.

This is done now in many countries and most believe it is more effective than the pat downs, in reality I believe that countries who do the pat downs - mine included - are doing so at the behest of the US, smaller countries relying on US pax traffic have no real options since the US does not appear to be willing to hold us accountable for their citizens safety while in our shores. We on the other hand can deny accountablity if something does happen and we followed your requirements to the T.
It's not what either side wants nor is it in the best interest of overall security, you really believe that the level of training or qualifications given to TSA staff is equalled in other parts of the world? A major part of the security process is identifying who should get additional screening, on that point the US is definatly pushing the procedure and talking about the qualifications after the fact, as I said earlier, my opinion is that the threat of the pat down seems to be what they are after.
 
Curtisman
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Sun May 15, 2011 6:41 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 45):
If you do an international background check done with a card or passport type document to prove you've had it done, you have less reason to be suspicious to TSA, therefore, you may be able to pass some security screenings or questioning. Not saying it would take away random pat downs, but it could be used for those frequent travelers. I believe it already exists in some parts of the world.

Are you referring to a frequent travel card? For example I have the NEXUS card because I frequently travel between Canada and the USA. Nexus allows me to go through Customs/Immigration faster as I only have to use a kiosk at the airport instead of talking to an officer (in most situations where kiosks exist). I can use my pass at land, air and water borders between Canada and the USA. My NEXUS card also gives me access when arriving from other countries into Canada and/or the USA in airports that have facilities to process NEXUS members. In order to obtain the NEXUS card I went through a background check by both Canada and USA people as well as being interviewed in person by both Canada and USA border folks. In Canada we have the kiosks that have retina recognition. I simply look into the camera, it scans the retina of my eye and pulls up my file. If I have anything to claim I enter that it it automatically gets charged to my credit card - otherwise I just go through in most cases.

One of the benefits of the card here in Canada is that we can use it at most airports to pass through Security queues quicker - we don't have to stand in the long queues if there is a NEXUS specific queue. We still have to go through security (metal detector and bags x-rayed) but the queue is just for NEXUS and/or passengers with elite status of airlines.
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D L X
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Mon May 16, 2011 2:33 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 40):
Sorry, but I don't see it. The only part of the 14th Amendment you could possibly be referring to is the Equal Protection Clause, which applies to individuals. I don't see how the citizenship clause or due process clause apply here. If anything, the due process clause would strengthen Texas's position.

No. Due process is a requirement on the states, not a grant of power to the states. The answer is section 5.

In any event, isn't it interesting that your argument for why the 10th Amendment somehow grants Texas the right to override the feds is based on stuff that isn't in the actual text of the 10th Amendment, but rather in writings of Thomas Jefferson (though I'm pretty sure you mean Madison), but the thousands of cases that discuss the 14th Amendment are not good enough because the 14th Amendment does not have the sentence saying the 10th Amendment is repealed?

The fact is, the 10th Amendment simply does not mean what I think you think it means.
 
lowrider
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RE: Texas Bans Offensive TSA Pat Downs.

Mon May 16, 2011 4:21 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 48):
Due process is a requirement on the states, not a grant of power to the states. The answer is section 5.

More concisely, it places a requirement on the states to protect the due process rights of the citizens.

Quoting D L X (Reply 48):
but rather in writings of Thomas Jefferson (though I'm pretty sure you mean Madison),

Both wrote on the topic, so citing either is correct.

Quoting D L X (Reply 48):
Due process is a requirement on the states, not a grant of power to the states. The answer is section 5.

It says that Congress may make laws to enforce that section, which if you read the preceding paragraphs, mostly revolves around citizenship and equal protection. It is not a blank check to make any law that Congress sees fit.

Quoting D L X (Reply 48):
The fact is, the 10th Amendment simply does not mean what I think you think it means.

It is more interesting that you claim it is abrogated, but provide absolutely no support for this statement. The 10th Amendment is fairly concise and clear.

Quote:
Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
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