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casinterest
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:58 pm

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 49):
You guys are all missing the point. Motorcyclist who ride without a helmet perform a vital role in society -

ORGAN DONATION.

Where else would we find perfectly good organs attached (detached) from brain stems?

So then should we rewrite laws to make them mandatory organ doners?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
dxing
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:22 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
If you think I'm making this up, read reply 31 all over again.

Not at all, but a car accident will tie up a road just as badly.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
No but we should take reasonable measures to reduce preventable deaths, like insisting on flotation devices for children below a certain age.

We insist on child safety seats yet guess what leads toddler deaths even though their use is mandatory? Drowning is right behind it at number 2. So again, should we outlaw pools or baths for children? If child seats have done such a wonderful job of lowering the death rate think of what outlawing baths and pools would do.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
We do that for boating here in the US and I don't see the boating community making a big fuss about it.

Yes you do. Ask the Coast Guard how many tickets they write for that.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 47):
And if a helmet may have saved them from fatal head injuiries?????

As I said, I'd feel bad about their loss, but they would have died doing what they wanted to do.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 47):
OK so do you advocate the repeal of seat belt laws?

Sure, I was never in favor of them to begin with.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 47):
Do you advocate every piece of government legislation remotely linked to personal safety?

Over the top statemet. If it is a decision I can personally make it should be mine to make. If you are talking about fire doors in a theater that is a different animal.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 47):
A compulsory helmet will not restrict your personal freedom in any way, it stop you riding your motor cycle, it will not restrict where you can go on your motor cycle. If

But it restricts my choice. That alone is enough to say it should not exist.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 47):
If a law making the wearing of a helmet is passed by a democratically elected legislature in the interests of the public good than it is their, your's and everyone's business.

Correct.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 47):
If you don't like the law you can either move to a different state or vote against the party that introduced it at your next election. That's democracy.

Correct.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 47):
First I have heard of that...truly. But if that is what you want to believe...

It's not a matter of belief. Why do you think street lights exist? For safety only or to also regulate traffic flow? Speed limits serve the same purpose. Why is it that you think a speed limit could only be for one reason that being safety?

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 47):
Clearly an inappropriate analogy.

Completely appropriate because given that there have been injuries with chain saws then we should be passing laws requiring training, and the wearing of appropriate safety gear before a chain saw can be used.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 47):
Do you get my drift here?

Yep, you favor restricting some activity but not all activity as it relates to personal freedom of choice based on that individuals risk assesment of the situation.
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Geezer
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:27 pm

Obviously, there are as many opinions about helmet laws as there are people on A.net !

I have attempted to point out that I am NOT against wearing helmets; I'm only against having a law FORCING people to wear them.

I could probably sit here and think of ten thousand "activities" that people engage in that may have the "potential" to kill or seriously injure them. Do all of you "helmet law advocates" think we should have ten thousand more laws to try to "save" people from killing themselves doing these things ? ( If you happen to be a lawyer, you probably DO think so ! )

Having said that, I'm sure I will now be accused of being "anti- lawyer" !

In my "earlier years" I was very "into" motorcycles, and I spent a lot f time riding them. My first MC was a 1951 Harley "74"; back then, they didn't even sell MC helmets ! Everyone either wore a "Harley Cap" or else a soft leather "aviator style" cap. While I was in the Navy, stationed in Norfolk, Va. in 1952, I was riding my Harley eastbound on a 4 lane divided boulevard, and I noticed a girl with an "ample bosom" walking west bound on the other side of the road; while I was "observing her assets", another sailor, driving an old 1936 Buick coup passed me on the right, then suddenly and without warning, decided to "execute" a U-turn about 15 feet in front of me; the resulting collision caused me to become "airborne", over the median strip, both west bound traffic lanes, and landing somewhat head-first on the west bound sidewalk; when I "came to" several days later in Portsmouth Naval Hospital, the Doctor advised me that the heavy leather MC jacket I was wearing had "saved" my life; ( I wonder why we don't now have a law requiring the wearing of leather MC jacekts ? )

My guess is..............there are obviously so many different ways to kill yourself that there isn't enough time, ( or enough lawyers ) to make enough laws to cover all of the "possibilities" ?

At this point, I'm going to throw just a bit more "contraversy" into this discussion; read through all the posts and see who is "pro" and who is "con" on helmet laws. I'm betting this is what you'll find out about all the members with all of the opinions: I predict that all of the "pro" helmet law members will be liberals. Liberals tend to think that "more government" ( and more laws ) will "solve" everything. Most, if not all of the "con" advocates will be conservatives, who, like myself, realize that "more government" ( and more laws ) is usually part ( or most ) of the problem, rather than the solution.

I hope no one thinks that I'm "against" having ( and obeying ) laws; I actually think I'm a pretty good example of a "law-abiding" citizen. My "track record" bears that out: 78 years with no arrests, never spent a minute in jail, never been charged with anything other than a few speeding tickets, and a "DOC" charge stemming from a fist fight in the median strip of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, ( with another truck driver ) So I am definitely all in favor of everyone obeying the laws; ( or at least the laws that make sense; there are quite a few laws that don't make sense ) Burt that's a topic for another day.

I had no "illusions" of changing anyone's minds or opinions about the great, on-going dispute over MC helmet laws; I merely wanted to point out that you just can't hope to keep people alive by merely passing more laws; particularly if you don't take steps to address the causes of the problems.

Now..................someone wisely "noticed" that I "faulted" "government" for not doing more to prevent so many car crashes. I probably don't have the time or space to really address this, but I will try to just "touch on it";

Inasmuch as this is an aviation related web site, there are obviously many members here who are very familiar with how pilots are licensed to fly airplanes. My point being, if you want to fly a big airplane, you MUST demonstrate a whole bunch of knowledge, ability, skill, decent physical condition, and so on. All of which I happen to think is a VERY GOOD IDEA !

On the other hand, if you just want to drive a car, you don't have to prove very much at all ! Also, the laws governing motor vehicles are made by.........50 different STATE legislatures; ( which is probably a bad idea ) If you have a "pulse", if you can sign your name, ( or at least make an "X" ), you can get a license to drive a car. If the states ever "get serious" about improving motor vehicle accident statistics, they need to take a long hard look at how pilots are licensed, and "follow suit". That's about as brief as I know how to make it, relative to my "ideas" on how government can do something about vehicle safety. ( It will be interesting to see why the liberals think I'm wrong.......... )

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
dxing
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:58 pm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 52):
I have attempted to point out that I am NOT against wearing helmets; I'm only against having a law FORCING people to wear them.

Agreed. If you want to, wear it. If you don't, don't.
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Revelation
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:12 pm

We went from you saying "traffic is not affected one way or the other if someone is not wearing a helmet" which I proved was false, and your counter is "a car accident will tie up a road just as badly"?

Unfortunately your retort isn't on point, and even if it was, it brings up the fact that fatal motorcycle accidents are more frequent than are auto accidents.

Here's some data:

Quote:

According to the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), in 2006, 13.10 cars out of 100,000 ended up in fatal crashes. The rate for motorcycles is 72.34 per 100,000 registered motorcycles.[1] Motorcycles also have a higher fatality rate per unit of distance travelled when compared with automobiles. Per vehicle mile traveled, motorcyclists' risk of a fatal crash is 35 times greater than a passenger car.[1]

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_safety#Accident_rates

Quoting dxing (Reply 51):
We insist on child safety seats yet guess what leads toddler deaths even though their use is mandatory? Drowning is right behind it at number 2. So again, should we outlaw pools or baths for children? If child seats have done such a wonderful job of lowering the death rate think of what outlawing baths and pools would do.

Asked and answered.

By bringing it up again this way, it shows you really don't know what reductio ad absurdum is.

You might want to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:26 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 51):
Yes you do. Ask the Coast Guard how many tickets they write for that.

You clearly missed the obvious point that the legislation was ALREADY PASSED for that.

Therefore, that is simply just a violation of maritime law and a ticket is justified. It doesn't matter who fusses, the law is law.
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
san747
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:49 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 44):
People die, trying to pass a law or regulation to prevent everyone of them is doing nothing but making life miserable for everyone all the time.

Aren't you being a little dramatic here? Actually, why am I asking this, of course you don't think so.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 47):
Its common sense to ware a helmet.... if you don't you may have your head crushed in. Is that not "natural selection" ?

We agree on this, but come to different conclusions from it.

Quoting dxing (Reply 51):

Sure, I was never in favor of them to begin with.

Really? Really? Seat belts are even more demonstrably life saving than helmets. It's not even a matter of debate that seat belts have saved hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of lives since they were made mandatory. It's just fact.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 52):
Do all of you "helmet law advocates" think we should have ten thousand more laws to try to "save" people from killing themselves doing these things

No, but it bothers me a lot that people will ignore common sense in the name of "freedom" in order to prove a really stupid point about "government incursions" into their civil liberties. This man did not have to die, but his idiotic viewpoint on the subject of helmet use directly caused his death.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 52):
Liberals tend to think that "more government" ( and more laws ) will "solve" everything. Most, if not all of the "con" advocates will be conservatives, who, like myself, realize that "more government" ( and more laws ) is usually part ( or most ) of the problem, rather than the solution.

This is the misconception about liberals. We don't necessarily want more government- we want adequate government to make sure no one is in the street, not able to have their most basic needs (food, shelter) met. And conservatives are quite OK with government when it serves them- see the stats on how many people don't want SS or Medicare cut.
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dxing
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:04 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 54):
We went from you saying "traffic is not affected one way or the other if someone is not wearing a helmet" which I proved was false, and your counter is "a car accident will tie up a road just as badly"?

Unfortunately your retort isn't on point, and even if it was, it brings up the fact that fatal motorcycle accidents are more frequent than are auto accidents.

I did not state it had to be a fatal car accident. A car accident, assuming two cars, can tie up a road just as badly as a motorcycle accident so I don't see your point. If the cycle, and rider, ends up off the road, which happens pretty often, then the road is not tied up at all. More often than not when two cars collide, they stay there. It doesn't have to be a fatal accident, if there is an injury and the cars are damaged enough, it will be a while before the road is open for business.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 55):
It doesn't matter who fusses

I'm sorry but Revelation asked:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 45):
No but we should take reasonable measures to reduce preventable deaths, like insisting on flotation devices for children below a certain age.

We do that for boating here in the US and I don't see the boating community making a big fuss about it.

We know it is law, that does not mean that people do not agree with it or ignore it.

Quoting san747 (Reply 56):
Seat belts are even more demonstrably life saving than helmets.

Great, then people who want to wear them should be able too. Those that don't, that is their decision to make. Its a question of personal freedom and responsibility. I don't quite understand why some are so intent in taking that away. As a matter of fact it's kind of frightening that you would willingly give up a right of choice.
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san747
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:16 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 57):
Its a question of personal freedom and responsibility. I don't quite understand why some are so intent in taking that away.

It's a question of responsibility, but not in the way you interpret it.

Quoting dxing (Reply 57):
As a matter of fact it's kind of frightening that you would willingly give up a right of choice.

It's kind of frightening that you would treat your life in such a cavalier manner in a misguided attempt to prove a (worthy) point. Having to wear a seatbelt is not an infringement on your rights. Not being able to protest it IS, and note that I have no objection to you or anyone else protesting it or even attempting to change the laws.

But as we are right now it's the law that you must wear a seatbelt, and you're not living under some tyrannical regime because of it. Talk about first world problems!
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:27 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 57):
I did not state it had to be a fatal car accident. A car accident, assuming two cars, can tie up a road just as badly as a motorcycle accident so I don't see your point. If the cycle, and rider, ends up off the road, which happens pretty often, then the road is not tied up at all. More often than not when two cars collide, they stay there. It doesn't have to be a fatal accident, if there is an injury and the cars are damaged enough, it will be a while before the road is open for business.

In my neck of the woods, non-fatal accidents (cars or bikes or both) end up getting pushed to the side of the road immediately. When there is a fatality, the state police come out with the clipboards and the cameras and the orange paint and the tape measures and tie up the road for hours.

Quoting dxing (Reply 57):
Great, then people who want to wear them should be able too. Those that don't, that is their decision to make.

Sure, if they own the roads, no problem. However, in the real world... see above.

Quoting dxing (Reply 57):
As a matter of fact it's kind of frightening that you would willingly give up a right of choice.

And it's kind of stupefying that you'll elevate something as common sense as putting a helmet on your head when you ride a motorcycle to a "right of choice".
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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dxing
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:27 pm

Quoting san747 (Reply 58):
It's kind of frightening that you would treat your life in such a cavalier manner

That's just it though, it is my life. I think people who rock climb are taking a big chance. I think people who dive are as well. People flying ultralights. Bungee jumping. But it's their life to do with as they choose.

Quoting san747 (Reply 58):
But as we are right now it's the law that you must wear a seatbelt, and you're not living under some tyrannical regime because of it.

And I do because it is the law, that does not mean I agree with it. Nor does it mean that I call people who blindly follow it with now question anything either. I think the opposite has been demonstrated here.
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Geezer
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:21 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 54):

Here's some data:

Quote:

According to the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), in 2006, 13.10 cars out of 100,000 ended up in fatal crashes. The rate for motorcycles is 72.34 per 100,000 registered motorcycles.[1] Motorcycles also have a higher fatality rate per unit of distance travelled when compared with automobiles. Per vehicle mile traveled, motorcyclists' risk of a fatal crash is 35 times greater than a passenger car.[1]

Just looking at this data, and comparing it to my own experience, I'd guess that it's just about right; but then, it's pretty obvious that riding a MC is going to have much more "potential" for getting one killed or injured than riding in a nice big closed in automobile is going to have; anyone with common sense would realize this; but you just keep on repeating the obvious..........we're not arguing here what's "dangerous" and what isn't; we're arguing that it really isn't necessary to have a law that forces ADULTS to do things that "enhance" their relative safety; there's a BIG difference !
And then, below......................

[quote=Revelation,reply=54]Quoting dxing (Reply 51):
We insist on child safety seats yet guess what leads toddler deaths even though their use is mandatory? Drowning is right behind it at number 2. So again, should we outlaw pools or baths for children? If child seats have done such a wonderful job of lowering the death rate think of what outlawing baths and pools would do.

Here we finally have a law requiring something that make sense ! mainly because little children are too young to realize the potential risks involved in riding in cars, so as adults, we make a sensible law that has obviously saved a lot of children's lives; I'm all for car seats, ( even though all my grandchildren are now almost adults. )

I hadn't thought about drowning yet; thank you for reminding me of that "hazard" ! I can think of nothing that claims the lives of more children, needlessly, than drownings. Fortunately for me, I learned to swim when I was about 2 yrs old. I spent much of my early childhood playing in the Great Miami River and swimming at Germantown Dam in Preble County, Ohio. I can't count the number of people who became drowning victims at both places. Had I not been a very strong swimmer from my earliest years, I would surely have never lived long enough to enlist in the Navy, and at one point, become a life guard at Rock Lake on the U.S. Naval Sub Base in New London, Ct. Being a good swimmer has saved my life more times than I can count.

Now...........having said that, and recognizing that drowning does in fact claim many lives, how about we all ( republicans and democrats, liberals and conservatives alike ) put our differences aside for just a short time, and all work together ( for a change ) to get a law passed to require ALL children to learn to swim when they are still quite young, say 5 or 6 yrs old ? If anyone ever succeeds in accomplishing this, I can guarantee you a great many children will live to become adults, instead of drowning as children. Swimming is as easy and as "natural" as learning to ride a tricycle, yet many, many children never seem to learn. I'm fully aware that some people have a bit more problem learning to swim than others have, but any good swimming course teaches a lot more about water safety than just how to swim.

When I was a life guard, we taught a course to "dependents" about water safety, that incorporated some of the things the Navy teaches recruits in boot camp, ( many of whom have no idea of how to swim )
Just one example is..........if you find yourself in water unexpectedly, and even if you can't swim, there is a lot you can do to avoid drowning; the very first, is to REMAIN CALM; don't "thrash about", using up all your energy, because it can and will save your life, IF, and only IF you do the right things. The very first of which is......stay afloat; don't try to keep your head a foot out of the water; you can't ! No one can; instead, you lean your head back slightly, move your legs back and forth in a "scissors" like motion, and gently "paddle" up and down with your hands; you are now "treading water"; I neglected to note, the very FIRST THING to do in the water is to get out of your shoes ! This is an absolute must ! I have personally seen dozens of people ( of all ages ), who couldn't swim an inch, discover that they can "tread water" for hours on end if necessary !

The thing that causes so many people to drown, oddly enough, is fear; if you can't swim, ( or you THINK you can't swim ), it's a normal psychological "thing" that causes you to do all of the wrong things, and to avoid doing the right things; ( try to remember all this next time you fall out of a boat in the ocean while not wearing a "life vest"; ( which is something else you DO NOT EVER want to do ! ) Just remember...........if you panic, you die ! It's just that simple; panic, you die; stay calm, tread water, you'll live. Almost every time. Panic is merely the result of fear, ( which is the result result of thinking you can't swim, and so on. So the teaching of water safety begins way before you ever get wet !
In boot camp, I was amazed at how many big, strong, healthy looking guys thought they couldn't swim ! In just a few minutes, I saw big strong guys who never swam a lick in their life, learn what I'm talking about in less than 15 minutes.
When most "non-swimmers" hear about "swimming", they tend to think about watching the Olympics, and seeing Michael Phelps set another record; I'm not interested in setting records here; I'm only interested in teaching anyone who thinks they can't swim, how very easy it is to save yourself from drowning. Think about this................

When you place ANYTHING in the water, here's what you'll see; if it's lighter than water, it will float; if it's heavier than water, it will sink; how "high" something floats is a matter of something called "buoyancy"; an object's "buoyancy" is determined by it's "specific gravity", which is just a "ratio" between what the object weighs, as compared to an equal amount of water. people, (most of whom can be considered to be "human bodies" ) have a "specific gravity" of just slightly LESS than an equal amount of water; ( largely due to the fact that we ARE mostly water, plus a few more things )
Also, no two people have exactly the same S.G.; we all "vary" slightly; a few individuals are almost like "corks" ! For them, floating requires very little effort; these folks can float all day long, but other people must expend a bit of effort just to keep their nose out of the water far enough to breath. If you are the latter category, the trick is, don't try to "fight it"; just get some air, and tread water and you'll stay right at the surface; it's not even necessary to have your nose out all the time; what is necessary, is to conserve your energy, because if you have to wait long for help, your life will depend on how well you do it. Staying afloat requires a very minimum of energy if you stay calm and do it right. A lot of people swimming near the beach in salt water find themselves in trouble, and waste all their energy trying to swim back to shore; a lot of things are involved here, but in most cases, because of the tide, wave action, etc. you can't get back, so it's best to stay afloat and wait for someone to rescue you.

BTW...........................maybe we need a LAW to prevent people from swimming in the ocean to begin with ?

Just one more thing, I should have mentioned earlier; if you happen to be fishing in, say, Lake Erie, and you fall out of the boat sans life vest, do this; ( this is taught to all Navy recruits in boot camp ) !. kick off your shoes 2. remove your pants / dungarees ( in the Navy, all sailors wear dungarees ) 3. tie a simple "overhand" knot at the very end of each pants leg; 4. holding the pants by the waist band on both sides, behind your head, pull them "quickly up and over your head and back into the water, and you will have trapped a considerable amount of air in both legs; 5. holding the waist band together, get the pants with the air in them under your chest / stomach, and you will have enough "buoyancy" to float for a considerable length of time; ( having a life vest on BEFORE you fall overboard is even better! Try to remember all of this; it could save your life some day.

Stay safe and try not to drown !
Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:18 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 60):
That's just it though, it is my life. I think people who rock climb are taking a big chance. I think people who dive are as well. People flying ultralights. Bungee jumping. But it's their life to do with as they choose.

     

How about the people that think gay marriage is harmful to society? Should we ban that too? It's hard to pick and choose! If someone wants to be dumb and do something risky, let them, they're grown men/women, as long as it doesn't affect anyone else but THEM!
 
jcs17
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:23 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Every time I see a motorcyclist. I think "there's someone who does not value their life"

Fixed.

I don't get it. Motorcycles are loud, uncomfortable, and dangerous. Three things together, even at the young age of 28, I prefer not to associate with.
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dxing
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:45 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 62):
How about the people that think gay marriage is harmful to society?

Is there a thread that somehow doesn't attempt to get corrupted to this subject?

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 63):
Motorcycles are loud, uncomfortable, and dangerous.

My motorcycle is loud, but it is not uncomfortable or dangerous. I can ride it all day, and do ride it to work almost everyday. A motorcycle is a machine. LIke a car or a gun, it is only as dangerous as the person operating it.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:56 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 64):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 62):
How about the people that think gay marriage is harmful to society?

Is there a thread that somehow doesn't attempt to get corrupted to this subject?

Was not addressing you good sir. I was comparing it to a liberty many people hold dearly. I should have put a break between the checkmarks and the next paragraph, sorry if it looks like I was calling you out, I was agreeing with you!  
 
EDICHC
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:21 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 64):
My motorcycle is loud, but it is not uncomfortable or dangerous.

Agree with points one and two but not point 3. Motorcycles are by their very nature dangerous. Regardless of how careful you may be you are only as safe as the idiot coming the other way. In a car you have far more protection than on a motorcycle. I have never seen a motorcycle with an airbag. But that is going slightly off topic, if you must ride your motorcycle at least give the most vital organ in your body some protection, failure to do is not expressing your freedom, it is expressing stupidity and wilful self-neglect.
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san747
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:26 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 60):

That's just it though, it is my life. I think people who rock climb are taking a big chance. I think people who dive are as well. People flying ultralights. Bungee jumping. But it's their life to do with as they choose.

Great. And every single one of those people who partake of those activities take basic safety precautions to avoid unnecessary injury or death. I don't see why motorcycle riding has to be an exception.
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Geezer
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:22 am

Well, I can definitely see that my "suspicions" that all of the "advocates" of the MC helmet laws are indeed liberals !
You can present them with facts all day long, point out that helmets are just fine, that it's just the laws requiring them that are wrong, and they just go on ignoring everything and anything, except that they think everything ( and I DO mean everything ) that is "worthwhile" MUST have yet another law to make it happen.

I have pointed out at least a dozen things that presently don't exist, all of which would save peoples lives, and have asked them repeatedly if they think we should pass more laws to make them happen; they continue to ignore this.

Here's what I think...............liberals really could care less about peoples safety; they merely like to use issues concerning safety as a way to create something to argue about !

I have even come up with a few ideas for new "safety enhancement" laws, and they don't blink an eye ! "If it's not something we libs can FORCE you conservatives to do, we don't even want to talk about it" ! Guess what............tomorrow, next week, or next March, they will suddenly "think up" the exact same thing I have already suggested, ( only this time around, they will claim it was THEIR IDEA, and it's all we'll hear about until they can get their liberal buddies in DC to make it a law.
And so goes the liberal philosophy...........if there are any "worthwhile ideas", WE'LL have them !

They won't even agree to help me get something going to teach little children to learn how to swim !

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
Springbok747
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:39 am

So these idiots don't want to wear a helmet, fine. But they must make their own arrangements to pay for the consequences..including scraping their brains off the road when they (inevitably) have an accident.

It just boggles the mind that people like this exist..I mean if you're too dumb or arrogant to wear head protection while riding a 700lb two-wheeled bike at speed, there's probably not much in there worth saving anyway.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:16 am

Quoting Geezer (Reply 68):
Well, I can definitely see that my "suspicions" that all of the "advocates" of the MC helmet laws are indeed liberals !

Then clearly you are uninformed. Just look at helmet laws by state. Places like Illinois, Iowa, New Hampshire.. completely free from any helmet laws. And then Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama - those liberal bastions- have full helmet laws. Clearly this is not an issue fought on typical partisan lines.

Fit that into the context of your little argument now.

Just goes to show you this is another topic where you don' t have the faintest idea what you are talking about, and just like to get into some non-existent ideological pissing match for sport as you treat the forum as your own little venue for your incoherent rambles.

"Good day".

[Edited 2011-07-06 04:17:35]
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lowrider
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:29 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 36):
This motorcycle crash victim impacted the lives of the troopers, the ambulance crew, the hospital employees, his friends, his family, and so on.

The first 3 signed up to be impacted when they chose those professions. Someone who signs up to work EMS and thinks they will never see trauma is probably too stupid to do the work. If the other two thought he would live forever in this life, then they were bound to be disappointed at eventually.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 59):
Sure, if they own the roads, no problem. However, in the real world... see above.

Seeing as how you don't own the roads either, how do you think you have any more say than anyone else? Anyone who pays taxes has a stake and a say. There are a lot of things I see people do on and off the road that I think are unsafe. That doesn't mean they should be banned. Motorcyclists fall into that category too.

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 63):
I don't get it. Motorcycles are loud, uncomfortable, and dangerous.

Only to the extent that the rider makes them to be. Mine is none of the above.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 69):
So these idiots don't want to wear a helmet, fine. But they must make their own arrangements to pay for the consequences

I agree. And I bet there is a market for helmet free insurance policies to cover this. Shouldn't be too hard for some sharp actuaries to develop tables and rates. You are free to choose what ever option you can afford, like most things in life.
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:21 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 65):
I was comparing it to a liberty many people hold dearly.

And thus trying to apply the slippery slope falacy, instead of trying to stay on-topic.

That's what happens when a point of view can't be supported on its own merits.

All of a sudden some are tying this issue to others that have no relation whatsoever, and try to make the false logical link that if we have one law that makes sense we're going to have lots of other laws that do not make sense.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 66):
if you must ride your motorcycle at least give the most vital organ in your body some protection, failure to do is not expressing your freedom, it is expressing stupidity and wilful self-neglect.

No, that makes too much sense.

It's kind of amazing here how most bikers put on appropriate protective clothing, make sure they have tires with good treads on their bikes inflated to the right pressure, and make sure they have effective brakes on their bikes, purchase and display the appropriate registration, and in many cases even submit their bikes for state inspection, but somehow draw the line at putting a helmet on their head.

Quoting lowrider (Reply 71):
The first 3 signed up to be impacted when they chose those professions. Someone who signs up to work EMS and thinks they will never see trauma is probably too stupid to do the work. If the other two thought he would live forever in this life, then they were bound to be disappointed at eventually.

Your reply is off-point. The original point was that no one's life is impacted if a person chooses to not wear a helmet, and that's just false. Even if you are a veteran first responder and knew your job would involve dealing with gore, a grisly fatality is still going to impact you, and you'd prefer to be dealing with helping survivors instead of dealing with a fatality. Even if you know dad/mom/uncle/aunt/cousin/brother/sister/son/daughter/friend is going to die eventually, their sudden death in an accident is going to impact you, even more so if their death might have been avoided if they had been wearing a helmet.

Quoting lowrider (Reply 71):
Seeing as how you don't own the roads either, how do you think you have any more say than anyone else?

What???

We are talking about an accident that happened in NY state which does have a helmet law. The owners of the road, namely the people of the state of NY, in the form of their legislators, chose to require helmets when using the road.

The deceased biker in this case gave a tragically ironic example of why they chose to do so.

This isn't the first time in this thread that I'm pointing out that the helmet laws arise from the taxpayers, via their elected officials, so it's a cheap trick to try to insinuate that I'd think otherwise.
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:37 pm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 7):
should we have a "law" that forces people to wear helmets while riding a motorcycle ?

I say no, there are thousands of good people waiting on Livers, Kidneys, Hearts etc. that die every day, if these morons want to test fate, let them do it. When I flew on the helo, motorcycles kept us in business on the weekends, that is why we refer to then as "organ donors"  Flame on!
 
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:28 pm

Without getting into specifics - serious injury and death have huge ripple effects. Family's destroyed, friendships ruined, community's changed for the worst - forever. Seat belts and helmets save lives across North America every year and prevent misery in peoples lives. There are undoubtedly 1000's of mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters that stand over the graves of loved ones every year and say 'if only he had been wearing a seat belt' or 'if only she had been wearing a helmet.'

If someone, for the purpose of proving a point against 'big brother' and enjoying their 'liberty.' decides that they don't want to wear a helmet then they must not have much respect for their own life or the emotional well-being of those they love and care about- those who are left to clean up the mess.

It is incredibly selfish.
 
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:17 pm

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 63):
Motorcycles are loud, uncomfortable, and dangerous.

Typical. Guns are loud and dangerous in the wrong hands, bikes are the same. Mine is neither loud, uncomfortable nor dangerous.

These posters touting bikers as the organ-donor saviours of the world are sick, narrow-minded individuals. You really don't do ANYTHING risky at any time in your life, ever? And you paramedics who bemoan having to attend accidents, you act as if helmetless bikers are the only source of gore in your jobs, come on.
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san747
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:27 pm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 68):


They won't even agree to help me get something going to teach little children to learn how to swim !

I'm liberal and I think that's a great idea. Happy?

Quoting Geezer (Reply 68):

Here's what I think...............liberals really could care less about peoples safety; they merely like to use issues concerning safety as a way to create something to argue about !

Considering how many lives have been saved by helmet and seat belt laws, including my own at least 3 times, I think people's safety was a major motivation for the "liberals" (including ones in Georgia and Alabama like jpetekYXMD80 said) to come up with these laws.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 68):
"If it's not something we libs can FORCE you conservatives to do, we don't even want to talk about it"

You've been around long enough to know that's not true. Life isn't as unpleasant as you're pretending to make it and you know that.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 72):

It's kind of amazing here how most bikers put on appropriate protective clothing, make sure they have tires with good treads on their bikes inflated to the right pressure, and make sure they have effective brakes on their bikes, purchase and display the appropriate registration, and in many cases even submit their bikes for state inspection, but somehow draw the line at putting a helmet on their head.

Thank you. It's ridiculous.

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 74):
Without getting into specifics - serious injury and death have huge ripple effects. Family's destroyed, friendships ruined, community's changed for the worst - forever. Seat belts and helmets save lives across North America every year and prevent misery in peoples lives. There are undoubtedly 1000's of mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters that stand over the graves of loved ones every year and say 'if only he had been wearing a seat belt' or 'if only she had been wearing a helmet.'

But it's not freedom! You can't legislate common sense! I'm conservative and nothing I do affects others because apparently no one else in the world is important to me, especially the ones who tell me I can't act like a 4-year-old and do anything I want without consequences!  
Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 74):

It is incredibly selfish.

Precisely! If people would learn not to be selfish shits all the time and think about how their decisions and actions affect others, the world would be a lot better place.
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Geezer
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:16 pm

This thread has sure been an "eye opener" as to how different people tend to think !

I don't care how many times you point out why certain kinds of "activities" have relatively more potential for getting one injured or even killed, there is always going to be someone who will try to convince you that they are smarter than you are, that if you like to do something that they don't like to do, that you are a "moron", etc, etc.

These people never want to hear anyone else's point of view, they only want YOU to hear THEIR point of view !

Look all you self appointed "experts" on everything, we already KNOW what your point of view is; you think anything that YOU think is a "good idea" should automatically become a LAW, and EVERYONE should be FORCED to do whatever it is that you think is such a great idea. You are forgetting several things; namely, some people just don't take kindly to being FORCED into doing things. There are many ways to get other people to "do" things, and some of these "ways" work a lot better than mere "force".

This whole thread is about a person who chose to NOT do something that a law said he was required to do; he lost his life as a result; sure, all of us who are against helmet laws are sad because this happened, and we all realize that had he obeyed that law, he would probably still be "with us". That's obvious; no one is arguing that fact. What you "helmet law advocates" seem to be unaware of, what you are totally unprepared to even consider is, while this one "incident" is happening, ( in a population of several hundred million people ) ( the population of the whole U.S. ), there were probably a million or maybe just a few hundred thousand other "idiots", "morons", etc. etc. ( all of the nasty, insulting names you liberals like to call anyone who doesn't agree with your "point of view" ) who left this life because they were engaging in THOUSANDS of other kinds of "activities" that are also known to be potentially hazardous to one's health; I'll point out just a few.........you can write another post and tell me how many of these "activities" YOU like to "participate" in; drinking alcoholic "beverages"; ( quite a few liberals die from this activity every day ) smoking tobacco; I don't know too many doctors that will tell you this is a "safe" activity; eating things that contain large quantities of; fat, sugar, artificial preservatives, ( and a few hundred more things which are known to be "bad" for one's health, and that are too numerous to list all of them, but I'm sure you "get the idea" ). Oh, and how about driving 75, 80, even 90 or 100 miles an hour on public roads ? Ever do any of that ? ( Of course we have all manner of speed limit laws on the books in every state, but how many drivers do you think ever pay any attention to them ? ) Take a trip on any interstate highway in this country ( the U.S.A. ) and let us all know how many people you see obeying the posted speed limits.

You may think I am "against" speed limits; To the contrary, I am strongly in favor of speed limits. I very rarely exceed the posted speed limits. Which I might add, places one in an exceeding small "minority" on any interstate highway these days. ( It's one of the reasons I use a lot of 2 lane roads when traveling to other states. ) Unlike most people, I'm almost never in a hurry, plus, I really don't like to drive much over 60 or 65 MPH. Do that on the interstate, and you risk getting run over by a Peterbuilt ! ( Very popular "make" of big truck in the U.S. )

Then take a close look at all of the accident statistics compiled every year by the NHTA ( or whatever they call it now ) and let us all know just how "effective" all those speed limit laws are at reducing car crashes. I can think of few things that have more laws telling you to do this and that, but I have yet to notice a year when we didn't have a lot of people getting killed in crashes. ( You will notice I didn't refer to them as "accidents" but as "crashes"; big difference; accidents being the outcome of things "accidental", while "crashes" are the outcome of sheer negligence and stupidity.

Now, I have noticed in this thread several things, other than just the wildly differing opinions espoused by the 'two sides";
First, ( and if you think I'm wrong, jut check back ) most of the pro law advocates seem to have a very great tendency to engage in a lot of "name calling" ( idiots, morons, and so on, of anyone who doesn't agree with their point of view.
Secondly, you all tend to be very bad "listeners"; you don't pay much ( any ) attention to anyone who dares to disagree with you. If you could ever pay a bit more attention, you would eventually realize a few things that so far have completely "escaped" you; namely, that you live in a great big world; there are millions and millions of people doing millions and millions of different things, 24 / 7 / 365, and a very large % of these things are quite dangerous, unhealthy, stupid, and probably have a very high probability of grave bodily harm, yet millions of people just keep right on doing them ! Why do you suppose this is ? Do you really think you, ( or anyone else ), can ever sit down and dream up enough "laws" and "regulations" to "protect" all of these "morons" ( your "term" not mine ) from their unwise behavior ?
Maybe someone should start a new thread entitled "Stupid laws already on the books" ; it would be a very long thread ! Because there are in fact a million extremely stupid laws on the books right now; 99% of them have never stopped anyone from doing anything !

The whole reason you are so "insistent" about this MC helmet law thing is very clear to me; you have "bought into" the old liberal "philosophy" that "the people are too stupid to do things for themselves" so "the government has to make a law to force them to do what they should do". The reasons why this just won't work would require a very long book, and I don't write books. For one thing, there just are not enough self appointed "experts" to write enough "laws" to cover all of the MILLIONS of stupid things people do that are potentially harmful, and even if there were, very few people would pay any attention to them. ( Such as the guy in NY who is now deceased. ) So............why don't you just admit this to yourselves, and try to come up with something that WILL WORK ?

BTW, I'll tell you why many of these "stupid laws" are on the books; it has nothing what-so-ever to do with stopping anyone from doing anything; it has everything to do with getting "into" your wallet; one of these days you will be cruising down the road on vacation, and you'll breeze into some little "hick" town, and the local "Barney Fife" will pull you over, and 'lighten" your wallet of maybe a hundred bucks; where upon, you will learn that said "hick" town has this "ordinance" requiring all drivers from ____________ ( where ever you happen to be from ) to be wearing pink sun glasses when you go through ___________. And you will no doubt come back home and post a "rant" on A.net / Non Av about how you were "robbed", etc.

Charley
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DeltaMD90
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:32 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 72):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 65):
I was comparing it to a liberty many people hold dearly.

And thus trying to apply the slippery slope falacy, instead of trying to stay on-topic.

That's what happens when a point of view can't be supported on its own merits.

Nah, if we strictly took the the topic, it would be me and you saying the same things back and forth. I say personal freedom. You say good for society. And we go back and forth... Gotta spread out somehow!
 
Springbok747
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:55 pm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 77):
"the people are too stupid to do things for themselves"

I didn't read your whole rambling post but yes. ..most people ARE TOO STUPID to do things for themselves. The problem is, these idiots who are protesting the helmet laws can meet with an accident and die..which is the end of the story. But in most cases, they don't die, but end up paralyzed or with other serious head-injuries which will require constant, life-long care.. and who do you think is going to pay for their rehab costs? Your tax dollars have to go to pay for their disability or social security benefits. I say sure...don't force them to wear a helmet, but if you crack your melon open, you need to send me a check to cover my insurance premiums to pay for your dumb ass.

I'm a med student..and every single day that I am out in the hospital..I see motor vehicle accidents where people survived because they were wearing a seat belt or a helmet. Just yesterday we had a guy on a bike who fell, at speed, on the freeway. He even bounced on his head a couple of times, but guess what - he lived because of his helmet. Sure, he had injuries, but none of them were life-threatening or disabling. It could have been a whole different outcome if he was not wearing a helmet!
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dxing
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:41 pm

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 66):
Motorcycles are by their very nature dangerous. Regardless of how careful you may be you are only as safe as the idiot coming the other way. In a car you have far more protection than on a motorcycle.

Using that logic we should all be driving SUV's as they are inherintly safer in an auto on auto crash.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 66):
I have never seen a motorcycle with an airbag.

Nothing stopping you from looking today.

http://world.honda.com/MotorcycleAirbag/

and if that's a bit much there are also airjackets.

http://www.bikebone.com/Air-Vest-Motorcycle-Airbag-Hit-Air.htm

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 66):
if you must ride your motorcycle at least give the most vital organ in your body some protection, failure to do is not expressing your freedom, it is expressing stupidity and wilful self-neglect.

Seems to me I've heard of plenty of people who's higher brain functions have quit and their brain effectively "died" but I have never heard of anyone surviving with a stopped heart.

Quoting san747 (Reply 67):
Great. And every single one of those people who partake of those activities take basic safety precautions to avoid unnecessary injury or death. I don't see why motorcycle riding has to be an exception.

Yep, every single one of them!   

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Quoting Revelation (Reply 72):
That's what happens when a point of view can't be supported on its own merits.

Ridiculous. Since wearing a helmet or not is a personal decision the merits of doing it or not are the individuals to make.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 72):
It's kind of amazing here how most bikers put on appropriate protective clothing,

They do? I don't see that and I ride almost every day.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 72):
purchase and display the appropriate registration, and in many cases even submit their bikes for state inspection,

Because the State does have the right to tax.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 72):
The original point was that no one's life is impacted if a person chooses to not wear a helmet, and that's just false.

Yes it is false.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 72):
Even if you know dad/mom/uncle/aunt/cousin/brother/sister/son/daughter/friend is going to die eventually, their sudden death in an accident is going to impact you, even more so if their death might have been avoided if they had been wearing a helmet.

Ridiculous. If their family was that close to them they knew the person's reason for riding without a helmet well before the accident happened. Even this person's brother thought so.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.s...eath_of_motorcyclist_during_h.html

Philip Contos rode his Harley-Davidson in Saturday’s annual Onondaga County protest ride without a helmet.

And he’d do it again if he could, Richard Contos said Sunday, even as he mourned his brother’s death.

“He would have wanted it that way,” the older Contos said.


Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 74):
Without getting into specifics - serious injury and death have huge ripple effects. Family's destroyed, friendships ruined, community's changed for the worst - forever.

So we should immediately stop any activity that could lead to accidental death. Kayaking, sky diving, skate boarding, and the list goes on.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 79):
But in most cases

Most cases? You are a "world" doctor?

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 79):
Sure, he had injuries, but none of them were life-threatening or disabling.

You don't know that. I injured my wrist almost a decade ago, at first it was fine but now, I can feel that it is not 100% and that was a simple sprain.
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Springbok747
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:54 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 80):
Most cases? You are a "world" doctor?

 

Did I say that? We see tons of crashes every month..90% of people involved are fine..with no long term effects.

Quoting dxing (Reply 80):
You don't know that. I injured my wrist almost a decade ago, at first it was fine but now, I can feel that it is not 100% and that was a simple sprain.

The patient involved in the bike crash had sustained injuries to his limbs, he did NOT have any issues with head injury because he was well protected. I don't know about your wrist injury..so can't comment on it, but I was talking about a specific case where a biker was saved because of wearing a helmet. He would certainly have had serious head injuries if he was not wearing a helmet.

Like I said before..if people don't want to wear a helmet while riding...then fine, don't. But don't expect us (the taxpayers) to pay for your stupidity.
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dxing
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:07 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 81):
Did I say that? We see tons of crashes every month..90% of people involved are fine..with no long term effects.


Unless you are doing follow ups on them years into the future you can't make this statement accurately. In addition, if you want to use the word "most" then tha would include motorcycle riders in other areas of the world rather than just your little corner of it.


Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 81):
The patient involved in the bike crash had sustained injuries to his limbs, he did NOT have any issues with head injury because he was well protected
Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 81):
He would certainly have had serious head injuries if he was not wearing a helmet.

From the same area as the Contos accident.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.s...ulton_man_dies_in_a_motorcycl.html

The Madison County Sheriff’s Office said the impact threw Terry Richardson, 59, from his motorcycle. Paramedics from the Cazenovia Area Volunteer Ambulance company pronounced him dead at the scene.

Richardson was wearing a helmet and riding with a group of motorcyclists, according to the sheriff’s department.


I agree that not wearing a helmet can and does lead to serious head injuries but a helmet does not always save you. A person's choice to wear one or not should be their own.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 81):
Like I said before..if people don't want to wear a helmet while riding...then fine, don't. But don't expect us (the taxpayers) to pay for your stupidity.

Then we can start that list of things that could be considered stupid and start axing them one at a time.
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:07 am

Quoting Geezer (Reply 77):
Look all you self appointed "experts" on everything, we already KNOW what your point of view is; you think anything that YOU think is a "good idea" should automatically become a LAW, and EVERYONE should be FORCED to do whatever it is that you think is such a great idea.

Since you have an aversion to laws, then why have traffic laws at all? All those other drivers are infringing on my personal liberty to turn whenever I want to, and there's a perfectly good unused lane on the other side of the divider, so for efficiency's sake I should be driving over there.

[For those of you following at home, yes, this is a "reductio ad absurdim" argument, in reaction to Geezer's continued insistence that laws are bad things even when they are good ideas...]

Quoting dxing (Reply 80):
Ridiculous. Since wearing a helmet or not is a personal decision the merits of doing it or not are the individuals to make.

Actually, in NY state and other jurisdictions, it is a matter of law.

Quoting dxing (Reply 80):
Ridiculous. If their family was that close to them they knew the person's reason for riding without a helmet well before the accident happened. Even this person's brother thought so.

Ridiculous? Right back on you, bro. Just because the brother understood AND accepted it, that doesn't mean the rest of the family does. There's lots of things my brother does that I accept that his kids do not accept.

Quoting dxing (Reply 80):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 72):
It's kind of amazing here how most bikers put on appropriate protective clothing,

They do? I don't see that and I ride almost every day.

Well, I did say 'most'....

Ok, then, are you OK with bikers driving around with bald tires every day? After all, it's about personal liberty, and I'm sure they know they are perfectly safe driving on bald tires, they've never ever hurt them, and if they do wipe out and die, all their family knows they got a special thrill out of driving around with bald tires...

Quoting dxing (Reply 82):
The Madison County Sheriff’s Office said the impact threw Terry Richardson, 59, from his motorcycle. Paramedics from the Cazenovia Area Volunteer Ambulance company pronounced him dead at the scene.

Richardson was wearing a helmet and riding with a group of motorcyclists, according to the sheriff’s department.

I agree that not wearing a helmet can and does lead to serious head injuries but a helmet does not always save you

You might want to consider the odds:

Quote:

"The data indicates that in 68.7% of all cases, the helmet was capable of preventing or reducing the head injury sustained by the rider (i.e., 33.2% + 35.5%). In 3.6% of all cases, the helmet was found to have no effect upon head injury"

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_safety#Accident_rates

68.7% chance the helmet can be of help, 3.6% chance it won't be of any help.

Yeah, I know, don't show me any stinkin' data!
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DocLightning
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:34 am

Quoting Geezer (Reply 77):
Look all you self appointed "experts" on everything, we already KNOW what your point of view is; you think anything that YOU think is a "good idea" should automatically become a LAW, and EVERYONE should be FORCED to do whatever it is that you think is such a great idea. You are forgetting several things; namely, some people just don't take kindly to being FORCED into doing things. There are many ways to get other people to "do" things, and some of these "ways" work a lot better than mere "force".

I agree. I also oppose mandatory seatbelt laws. That doesn't mean that I think that people who ride without helmets or seatbelts are not flaming idiots.
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san747
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:43 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 80):

Yep, every single one of them!

Touche friend. Though notice what happened to that last guy!  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 84):

I agree. I also oppose mandatory seatbelt laws. That doesn't mean that I think that people who ride without helmets or seatbelts are not flaming idiots.

Interesting. You are not always predictable, Doc.
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Revelation
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:08 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 84):
That doesn't mean that I think that people who ride without helmets or seatbelts are not flaming idiots.

Thanks for the interesting example of double negatives.

Quote:

In most logics and some languages, double negatives cancel one another and produce an affirmative sense.

Standard English lacks negative concord, but some dialects do have it (e.g. African American Vernacular English), although its usage in English is often stigmatized.

Stylistically, in English, double negatives can sometimes be used for understated affirmation (e.g. "I'm not feeling bad" vs. "I'm feeling good").

I'm finding the analysis of people's posting styles pretty interesting because people are going a very long way to avoid admitting that laws requiring people to wear helmets while wearing motorcycles make sense.

And for the record, yes, I'm in favor of laws requiring head protection while doing dangerous things where no other protection is available such as rock climbing and bicycle riding and (gasp) motorcycle riding.

And for the record, I am not in favor of laws banning water because someone somewhere once drowned while drinking a glass of water.

It's all about common sense, folks.

And we all do have to get along together here on the planet Earth, so despite many laws that I don't personally like, for the record, I'll say that in balance, having laws is a good thing. There's a lot of things in all of our daily lives that are a lot easier to deal with because of the presence of laws and their enforcement.

I know some of you can't admit some laws are good because that takes us down the slippery slope to dealing with the fact that some laws are bad, but life is a complicated thing, and there's a lot of nuance to it all.
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DocLightning
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:25 pm

Quoting san747 (Reply 85):

Interesting. You are not always predictable, Doc.

I'm very predictable. I believe that for the adult making a decision which DIRECTLY affects him and him alone, there should be education and encouragement to make good decisions, but not legal enforcement.

Talking about "costs to society" is a very slippery slope. According to "costs to society" we shouldn't let anyone engage in any form of recreation at all.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 86):

Thanks for the interesting example of double negatives.

You aren't not very welcome.
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Tugger
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:49 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 86):
I'm finding the analysis of people's posting styles pretty interesting because people are going a very long way to avoid admitting that laws requiring people to wear helmets while wearing motorcycles make sense.

And for the record, yes, I'm in favor of laws requiring head protection while doing dangerous things where no other protection is available such as rock climbing and bicycle riding and (gasp) motorcycle riding.

And for the record, I am not in favor of laws banning water because someone somewhere once drowned while drinking a glass of water.

It's all about common sense, folks.

Just out of curiosity then, would you support a law that requires children learn to swim? Or that anytime children are around water (even at home in the tub) they wear something that keeps their head above water? As noted below it is one of the leading causes of death for young children and death is only part of the cost a good percentage that survive suffer brain damage. Why not require that children learn to swim or wear a protective device?

Quote:
Drownings are the fifth leading cause of home injury death in the United States, accounting for an average of 823 deaths per year.
Drowning is the second leading cause of unintentional injury-related death among children ages 1 to 14.
Drowning is the leading cause of unintentional injury related death among children ages 1 to 4.
The death rate for drowning is highest among children younger than 5.

Injuries and Emergency Room Visits

Near-drownings have very high case fatality rates.
Fifteen percent of children admitted for near-drowning die in the hospital, and as many as 20% of survivors suffer severe, permanent neurological disability.
An average of 7,171 near-drowning injuries, resulting in an emergency department visits, occur in the home environment every year in the United States.
It is estimated that between 1 and 4 near-drownings serious enough to result in hospitalization occur for each drowning-related death.
http://www.homesafetycouncil.org/aboutus/Research/re_sohs_w018.asp

I ask this only as a reflection on where we do draw the lines on laws designed to protect people. For me, having my children learn to swim was a requirement.

Tugg
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san747
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:43 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 87):
I'm very predictable. I believe that for the adult making a decision which DIRECTLY affects him and him alone, there should be education and encouragement to make good decisions, but not legal enforcement.

Agreed that there should be education and encouragement to make good decisions, but when common sense is willfully ignored just to prove a dumb point in a fit of childish rebelliousness against "the man," I'm not letting my tax dollars get wasted on police, fire, ambulance and hospital services when that person inevitably gets injured or dies from not wearing a helmet.

Or how about this? You don't have to wear a helmet, but you get cited and pay a steep fine if caught by a cop or involved in an accident that results in the authorities being called and/or a hospital stay (even if not at fault).
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DeltaMD90
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:47 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 86):
people are going a very long way to avoid admitting that laws requiring people to wear helmets while wearing motorcycles make sense.

IT DOES MAKE SENSE. I will always wear a seatbelt even if it isn't a law. My question is why should I HAVE to do something YOU or society thinks is "right" and it does NOT affect anyone else? I won't even post other examples of "society" telling adults what to do since I don't want to be accused of slippery slope or whatever. And yes, I heard the argument about the poor police scraping people off the road (which is their job I think they're fine) and the added costs to medical, which is the best argument IMO, but sorry, I'll pay a bit more to have my personal freedoms (affecting only me) protected from you and society.
 
Springbok747
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:49 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 87):
I believe that for the adult making a decision which DIRECTLY affects him and him alone

But not wearing a seatbelt can affect others as well. I mean..if I'm sitting at the back, not wearing a seatbelt, and there's an accident..then I'll plough right into the person sitting in the front..who was wearing a seatbelt..and possibly injure/kill him/her. Then what happens?
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dxing
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:37 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 86):
I'm finding the analysis of people's posting styles pretty interesting because people are going a very long way to avoid admitting that laws requiring people to wear helmets while wearing motorcycles make sense.

You can't post this and then follow with this:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 86):
And for the record, I am not in favor of laws banning water because someone somewhere once drowned while drinking a glass of water.It's all about common sense, folks.

since requiring helmets falls in the same catagory. Wearing a helmet while riding makes sense. Passing a law requiring wearing one does not, it infringes on a persons individual liberty to be stupid if they wish.
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Springbok747
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:47 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 90):
which is their job I think they're fine

Um..no it isn't.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 90):
but sorry, I'll pay a bit more to have my personal freedoms

Fine. Have your personal freedoms..but don't expect the taxpayer to bear the cost of your stupidity. Like I said before..if someone is too arrogant or dumb enough not to wear head protection when riding a 700 something lb machine at speed then there's probably not much in there worth saving anyway... *puts flamesuit on*
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dxing
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:25 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 93):
Fine. Have your personal freedoms..but don't expect the taxpayer to bear the cost of your stupidity

Yet we are supposed to bear the cost of stupidity for universal care which would include cancer treatment for smokers, liver transplants for alcoholics, and rehabilitation for drug users. Sorry, I just don't get why one stupidity gets a pass while another gets a law passed.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:57 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 93):
cost of your stupidity.

HMMMMM UMMMM:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 90):
I will always wear a seatbelt even if it isn't a law.

Didn't see that line I guess?

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 93):
if someone is too arrogant or dumb enough not to wear head protection when riding a 700 something lb machine at speed then there's probably not much in there worth saving anyway

*I agree* Why don't you reread my post, you have what I'm saying allllll wrong
 
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:52 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 90):
My question is why should I HAVE to do something YOU or society thinks is "right" and it does NOT affect anyone else?

As you mention, we've already seen postings of how in this particular case what you do DOES affect others.

For instance, we've had EDICHC post how it DOES affect first responders.

And if you really think no one at all (friends, relatives, co-workers, etc) is affected (emotionally, financially, etc) in the case of Mr Contos I personally think you are very misguided.

Do you really think if you die of a preventable fatality no one else would be affected?

It's hard for me to fathom a person that is that disconnected from all others.

I think a lot of people would like to think that many aspects of their behavior do not affect others, but I think a neutral observer would have no problem seeing how many if not most of their behaviors affect others.
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EDICHC
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:37 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 80):
Seems to me I've heard of plenty of people who's higher brain functions have quit and their brain effectively "died" but I have never heard of anyone surviving with a stopped heart.

So that is why then when the body goes into it's own self protection mode it shuts down the blood supply progressively to preserve the supply to the BRAIN? Once you are brain dead you are dead that's it, no way back. As for never heard of anyone surviving a stopped heart..you never heard of CPR? I have and and was involved in a successful resuscitation earlier this week. It's only part of my profession so what would I know?   

If you have your brains dashed out onto the road surface it will not just be your higher function lost, it will be autonomic function loss as well.
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dxing
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:18 pm

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 97):
As for never heard of anyone surviving a stopped heart..you never heard of CPR? I have and and was involved in a successful resuscitation earlier this week. It's only part of my profession so what would I know?



Sure I've heard of CPR, and I've also heard of it not working. Correct me if I'm wrong but the survival rate outside of a hospital is on the order of 10%? So as I said, rather than being in a long term care facility in a non-reversible coma, if your heart stops, you're gone.

As described above, it can and does happen that a person wearing the proper protective gear still dies in a motorcycle crash and the 3 people I have know that were killed while riding all died of something other or in conjunction with a brain injury.

Again, outlawing helmets is an invasion of one's personal liberty. If we are going to do it for one thing then there is no reason not to do it for a whole host of activities.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 83):
Ok, then, are you OK with bikers driving around with bald tires every day? After all, it's about personal liberty, and I'm sure they know they are perfectly safe driving on bald tires, they've never ever hurt them, and if they do wipe out and die, all their family knows they got a special thrill out of driving around with bald tires...



The State has a right to tax, part of that tax is legislating a vehicle inspection in which the fee is a tax. One of the things that can cause a "fail" of the vehicle inspection are bald tires. So no, I don't have a problem with it because every vehicle, 2, 3, 4, 6 and more is required to have good tires. That is different than requiring the driver to wear something to operate the machine.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 83):
You might want to consider the odds:



I have not said that survivability rates are better without a helmet than with one. My post was in response to continued implication that wearing a helmet is some sort of talisman that prevents head injuries.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 96):
And if you really think no one at all (friends, relatives, co-workers, etc) is affected (emotionally, financially, etc) in the case of Mr Contos I personally think you are very misguided.

Do you really think if you die of a preventable fatality no one else would be affected?




People are affected no matter what kind of death a person suffers. Attempting to quantify grief is a dumb argument. Different people are going to be affected in different ways. Some people will be just as devastated by a 90 year old passing away in their sleep of natural causes.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 83):
Ridiculous? Right back on you, bro. Just because the brother understood AND accepted it, that doesn't mean the rest of the family does. There's lots of things my brother does that I accept that his kids do not accept.



So in other words even the word of a family member is not enough. Then no amount of example will be enough. Talk about an argument lacking merit.
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LMP737
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RE: NY Motorcyclist Dies On Ride Protesting Helmet Law

Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:46 pm

When I see someone riding without a helmet I see a selfish jerk. A person who does not care the pain their friends and family will have to endure if they are killed as a result of not wearing one. Or a person who does not care that they could very well bring financial ruin on their family in the event they do survive but are unable to work and require 24/7 care.
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