photopilot
Topic Author
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:57 pm

So I decided to do a little shopping on the way home from work today. Pulled into a local cheese and meat shop to pick up some supplies for my lunches.

I'm no sooner parked and getting out of my car when this lady drives up and starts screaming profanity at me that I've "stolen" her parking spot. Now remember, this is in a public strip mall with lots of stores. But the profanity continues and not wanting to engage in an argument, I kept my mouth shut, shrugged and walked away and into the store.

But all my senses were on alert as her outburst was IMHO, completely unwaranted and a far over-reaction to a simple parking spot. I watched her floor it and zip into a spot farther down the row. I went into the store but stood in the area between the entrance doors and watched for a few moments. She made a bee-line to my car and walked between my car and the car parked next to it, then went the other way towards the stores. Curious, I quickly went around the cash registers to get to the exit door (one way doors) and out into the parking lot. I wasn't out of direct sight of my car for more than 30 seconds. And yup, The bitch has "keyed" my car and I now have a long scratch down my door.

She'd gone into a nearby store but I didn't see which one she went into, so I quickly moved my car into the aisleway and blocked her car in, sat in my car and called the police. She comes back a half-hour later and I wouldn't let her car out, but stayed away from her or an argument other than telling her she's not leaving until the police arrive.

Well the police come and get separate statements from both of us and she actually admits to the confrontation etc. But because I couldn't actually "see" her hand down between the cars, the officer informs me that he has no direct evidence that she keyed the car and cannot therefore lay charges. Between us, he tells me that he's 99% sure she did it, but without actual observation of the keying, he can't go to court with this. I was observing by looking down the row of cars, side-on, not head-on. He tells me all he can do is write up a full report and officially caution her.... whatever the hell that means, then let her go.

So now I have to wait for the police report to be filed, then go to police headquarters and PAY to get a copy of the report, then I can proceed to Civil Court and sue the bitch for the damage she caused.

I'm simply pissed that the standard of "proof" is so stupid that wanton vandalism seen to happen right in front of you still isn't enough to charge someone. And as the dollar value of the damage is likely less than the deductable of my insurance "vandalism" rider, I'm stuck to either pay it myself or sue privately.

What is this bloody world coming to?

Ok, rant over....... So how was your day?
 
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Braybuddy
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:12 pm

A really rotten thing to happen, but at least you managed to block her car and confront her and call the police. Maybe she won't be so quick to do it again. Which is no use to you, of course, but you just might have saved someone else from the same grief. I assume there's no CCTV in the area?

And my day was much less exciting .. .

[Edited 2011-07-28 14:15:16]
 
Doona
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:13 pm

Quoting photopilot (Thread starter):
So how was your day?

Pretty good, actually, thanks.

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
Springbok747
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:21 pm

You should have returned the favour and keyed the s#$% out of her car..I mean..there is no proof you did it right..

What a crazy system. I'd be pissed too..

Is the key mark down the the primer or is it a light scrap? If it is light you may be able to use a buffer to polish it out.

Quoting photopilot (Thread starter):
So how was your day?

Just getting started actually..its 7:20am on a Friday..TGIF..looking forward to the weekend.
אני תומך בישראל
 
gatorfan
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:25 pm

I'd be really careful about this. If you were in the US, you might be charged with false imprisonment or sued in civil court. You have no right to detain her, barring evidence that she committed a crime (in some places it needs to be a felony and other a violent felony). By your own admission you have evidence of no-crime and certainly no evidence that she was the one who did it.
 
lewis
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:06 pm

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 4):

So if you can't confront or hold someone for what they did to your property, then you are either stuck with paying for the damage but if you want to at least get some satisfaction of "punishment" you can go ahead and ..

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 3):
You should have returned the favour and keyed the s#$% out of her car..I mean..there is no proof you did it right..

I would usually not advocate such an action but there are some cases where the justice system is not gonna help... I have had this done to my car and even for a small part of the body you need a lot of $$ to re-paint etc. I would not hesitate to "key" someone's car from top to bottom so that all body parts need repaint if I knew 100% who did it.
 
mwhcvt
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:25 pm

Quoting photopilot (Thread starter):

I feel your pain, I help my brother in law who is a DJ by providing transport since he doesn't drive and would have no other way to transport the 1/2 tonne of equipment, long story short in the last 2 months my car has had 2 attempted break in's and been keyed twice also, on one occasion we got to the car as one of the attempted break in's was taking place and chased the guy but he got away, the guy had been in the bar at different times in the evening so we did recognise him and gave a full description to the police and within 30 minutes he had been arrested, but guess what, not enough evidence to charge him. the next time remarkably my car was the only one not covered my the CCTV, I'm rapidly loosing any confidence in out judicial system....

Matt
MWHCVT
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Maverick623
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:33 pm

Quoting photopilot (Thread starter):
I wasn't out of direct sight of my car for more than 30 seconds.
Quoting photopilot (Thread starter):
She comes back a half-hour later and I wouldn't let her car out

You're lucky she was too stupid to have you arrested for false imprisonment. It doesn't matter how long you were out of direct sight, you were both out of sight for a moment and never actually saw her key your car. You wouldn't even have much of a case in civil court with that (lack of) evidence. Without any other witnesses, she could accuse you of keying your own car to get back at her for mouthing off to you, and it would quickly be her word against yours.

Next time, write down the license plate, and file a police report for insurance purposes. There's simply no way, other than having neutral witnesses, to have the police file charges or even hope for a conviction.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
flood
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:57 pm

Have you checked for security cameras? Even if they don't show her actually doing it, parking elsewhere and walking up to your door would be rather incriminating.
 
Maverick623
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:02 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 8):
Even if they don't show her actually doing it, parking elsewhere and walking up to your door would be rather incriminating.

No it wouldn't. It wouldn't even meet the burden of proof for a civil case (lawsuit). She could claim to be walking up to see if he was still in the car.

Unless reliable witnesses saw her doing it, or she was caught on video, there's so much doubt that can be thrown in as to make a conviction unattainable.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
something
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:23 pm

Sorry to hear about the story, but as annoying this might sound.. I'm actually with the law on this. And even if you had seen her do it, you might not have been able to prove it without a witness. If you were really serious about this, you could have easily asked the police to confiscate her key, call a specialist and have him examine the key. It would have most definitely had paint particles of your vehicle on it. But I'm no expert on US law. Maybe you'd have to pay for that examination yourself even if it proved her guilt. Which would most likely be pricier than just getting the car polished. Women are usually not strong enough to scratch the paint off down to the primer.

If you still seek for revenge, and I am not advocating or calling for the comission of a crime here, but I'd suggest to kill her pets. In Europe that falls under criminal property damage and a dog ''costs'' about $250, a cat $100. Unless of course, it's a very unfortunate accident in which case of course your liability/indemnity insurance will pick up the tab. Just putting that theory out there.

Oh and thanks, my day's been great as always  
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
BMI727
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:48 pm

Quoting photopilot (Thread starter):
Well the police come and get separate statements from both of us and she actually admits to the confrontation etc. But because I couldn't actually "see" her hand down between the cars, the officer informs me that he has no direct evidence that she keyed the car and cannot therefore lay charges.

Not sure about Canadian laws, but while a criminal case couldn't hack it, you have a slam dunk case for civil court.

Quoting photopilot (Thread starter):
So now I have to wait for the police report to be filed, then go to police headquarters and PAY to get a copy of the report, then I can proceed to Civil Court and sue the bitch for the damage she caused.

That's pretty standard. You might be able to recover that as court costs. I think that if you had a lawyer, he could go get the report and add it to his bill which would definitely be recoverable as legal costs.

But from your description, this is at worst a matter for whatever your equivalent of small claims court is. Probably the best way to handle it though, is to make a claim with your insurance. They will send their people after the lady and when they win, they can reimburse your deductible.

[Edited 2011-07-28 17:10:16]
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BAViscount
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:49 pm

Quoting something (Reply 10):
If you still seek for revenge, and I am not advocating or calling for the comission of a crime here, but I'd suggest to kill her pets.

Oh please do tell me that you're not serious.   
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something
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:04 am

Quoting BAViscount (Reply 12):
Oh please do tell me that you're not serious.

Just spitballing  
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
PSA53
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:16 am

Quoting something (Reply 10):
Sorry to hear about the story, but as annoying this might sound.. I'm actually with the law on this. And even if you had seen her do it, you might not have been able to prove it without a witness.

Yeah,it sucks.But a he said,she said only will not stand up in court.

Quoting photopilot (Thread starter):

I'm very sorry to hear.Had this done to me a few years back with same results.So,I know what you're going through.

Then there was another car situation that you felt helpless with.When your car is parked and some one bangs the hell of yours with their door.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
something
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:28 am

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 14):
Then there was another car situation that you felt helpless with.When your car is parked and some one bangs the hell of yours with their door.

One time a friend of mine and I were sitting in his car and a car parked next to his'. Driver opens the door forcefully, bangs it against the passenger door, I look him in the face, and he doesn't even bother and walks away. There was no visible damage to his car, but there was a black scuff on the door of that guy's car.

Imagine that guy would have returned to his car and his tires were flattened. Lucky for him, I'm not that spiteful a person. I have no recollection of my friend's actions that day though.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
sw733
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:04 am

Quoting photopilot (Thread starter):
So how was your day?

Work: terrible

Post work: $6 pitcher (60 ounces...solo) of beer...decent.
 
WestJetForLife
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:54 am

That sucks, dude. All over a fucking parking spot? What has the world come to?

Quoting photopilot (Thread starter):
Ok, rant over....... So how was your day?

Warm, hungry, in need of a cigarette, a massage and some pizza. Thanks for asking.  

Nik
I need a drink.
 
StuckInCA
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:42 am

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 4):
I'd be really careful about this. If you were in the US, you might be charged with false imprisonment or sued in civil court. You have no right to detain her,

My thoughts too. I guess she could have walked off so perhaps it wasn't exactly a detainment, but I'd be surprised if you didn't do as much wrong as she did in the eyes of the law.

I'd let it go.... unless there's footage from a security camera. Ask the nearby business.

[Edited 2011-07-28 19:43:24]
 
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hOMSaR
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:04 am

I don't suppose you could have asked to see her keys, and see if there was any paint residue on the keys that might be considered evidence?

Too late now, though.
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Geezer
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:20 am

I wouldn't have blocked her in; I would have parked my car some distance away, and then waited for her to come back out. About the time she realized she had 4 flat tires, I would have walked up, and laughed in her face!

My, my, what a coincidence ! Wonder how that happened ? And oh.........looks like "someone" scratched YOUR door !
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spudsmac
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:34 am

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 4):
I'd be really careful about this. If you were in the US, you might be charged with false imprisonment or sued in civil court. You have no right to detain her, barring evidence that she committed a crime (in some places it needs to be a felony and other a violent felony). By your own admission you have evidence of no-crime and certainly no evidence that she was the one who did it.

I don't know about that. You are not stopping her from going anywhere, just stopping her car that she wasn't in from going somewhere.

I don't think false imprisonment would fly at all.
 
Maverick623
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:26 am

Quoting spudsmac (Reply 21):
You are not stopping her from going anywhere, just stopping her car that she wasn't in from going somewhere.

His intention was pretty clear: stop her from leaving the scene.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
gatorfan
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:20 pm

Quoting spudsmac (Reply 21):
I don't know about that. You are not stopping her from going anywhere, just stopping her car that she wasn't in from going somewhere.

...In order to prevent her from leaving. As soon as she showed up and was kept from leaving the problem starts. False imprisonment does generally require the confinement to specific space. But depending on the specific facts and circumstance I could easily see someone making your life miserable by filing suit. My point was simply - don't take the law into your own hands UNLESS you're prepared for the consequences.

5 years ago Christmas time, I was leaving a Best Buy store. I paid for my purchase (a DVD player) at the register closest to the exit (literally directly in front of the exit). The purchase was not placed in a bag. The cashier handed me the receipt and I picked up the DVD player with the same hand I had the receipt, took maybe ten steps forward through the exit when a Best Buy "security" person said, "Excuse me sir, may I see your receipt." My response was "No" and I kept walking. The man followed me outside and yelled, "We have the right to inspect all packages." I said, "And I have the right to refuse." At that point he grabbed me by the shoulder. I turned around and hit the guy in the face knocking him to the floor. Several other Best Buy people came over as did a police officer in the parking lot. The guy was screaming that I should be arrested. The officer pulled me aside and asked me what happened.

I asked him if I was under arrest. He said no but he'd like to question me. I told him that I would wait around for him to question the other guy first and then would respond. The officer did that, the guy told him the truth, recounting exactly what I wrote above. The officer then came to me and asked me for my side which I confirmed.

The officer then said, well he has the right to detain you under what is known as the shopkeeper's privilege. I said, for that to be true, he'd (a) have to have a reasonable suspicion that I had stolen something and (b) he'd have to stop me within the store. Here he had no suspicion that I'd stolen anything considering I had a receipt in my hand and had paid for the purchase less than five feet from him after waiting in line during which he and I had made eye contact. I was carrying no bag so therefore there was no possibility that I was shoplifting. The employee had admitted to the police officer that he tried to stop me based on store policy of examining receipts. Furthermore, I was already outside the store when he grabbed me. I pointed out to the officer that if the employee was not privileged to touch me, his laying of hands upon me in itself constitutes battery and I have the privilege to use reasonable force to stop that - which I did.

I told the officer that I wanted a police report written with the name of the employee and the names of the witnesses along with a request by the police department to Best Buy to secure the video tapes of the incident. He did that and off I went.

Two days later, I got a call from an insurance adjuster for Best Buy wanting to discuss the matter. I told him that I would only discuss the matter with an attorney present. He asked me if there was any way we could avoid escalating the matter to that. I asked what he wanted to offer. He offered me a $500 gift certificate. I said I wouldn't consider less than $1,000, a letter of apology from Best Buy, a release from both the company and the employee and written assurance that I was not banned from the store as a trespasser. We discussed it back and forth for a couple of minutes and he then agreed.

The moral of the story is, know the law. Know your rights. Know the consequences of exercising those rights.
 
baroque
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:34 pm

Quoting photopilot (Thread starter):
Ok, rant over....... So how was your day?

Well a lot better than that. Last time I had a spat in a parking area was in the middle nineties, but discretion was the better part of valour - he was a fit looking young man who zapped into the parking place I was waiting patiently for the outgoing car to clear.

Looks like a long thread to come. Do keep us posted.

Bit late now, dare I ask if you looked at her keys for "traces" of paint? Your paint!
 
Stealthz
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:55 pm

Had a similar spat over a parking issue many years ago, then while in the restaurant the "adversaries" sat where they were in our constant eyeline and sat there gloating at us the whole time we were there.

I was pretty pissed off by this and the incident, when we left I took one of those single serve sachets of honey, as we walked past their car I squeezed the honey across their windshield. Thinking that was the end of it I walked on... not realising how peeved my GF was(or her spiteful streak!!).. she walked the other side of the car, reached down picked up a handful of sand and threw it across the honey I had spread.

What happened next?

Who knows... If they were sensible and tossed a bucket of water on the mess they would have returned home cursing us... if they did the instinctive thing and turned on the windshield wipers... oh well!!

Back to the wrongful inprisonment... if PP was not physically restraining the woman, she could just walk away... hardly inprisonment, at least not in places with sensible (and sensibly interpreted) laws.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
baroque
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:18 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 25):
peeved my GF was(or her spiteful streak!!)

Please keep us posted of location of yr GF and the state of her "spiteful streak" just in case we risk crossing her!   
 
Stealthz
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:12 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 26):
just in case we risk crossing her!

Just celebrated a birthday placing her only a decade short of the classic "3 score and ten years" .. living on the edge of the Wollemi NP.. and no I would not risk crossing her!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
baroque
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:18 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 27):
the Wollemi NP

Mind the pines (or agathids) as you go then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wollemia
Don't tell me you have parking problems from those wishing to see living fossils?
 
Stealthz
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:42 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
Don't tell me you have parking problems from those wishing to see living fossils?

She will be really pissed if you call her a living fossil!!!  

The original event was at Balmoral Beach... Mischa's as it was then!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
fruitbat
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:16 pm

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 23):
The moral of the story is, know the law. Know your rights. Know the consequences of exercising those rights.

Actually, it's all the above plus "have the confidence in your knowledge to keep your head whilst all around you are losing theirs"......nice story and good result!
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
 
EDICHC
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Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:58 pm

Quoting homsar (Reply 19):
I don't suppose you could have asked to see her keys, and see if there was any paint residue on the keys that might be considered evidence?

Absolutely, negligent of the attending police officer not to consider this. Paint match those and there is your irrefutable evidence.
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photopilot
Topic Author
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RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:08 pm

Well thanks for your various comments folks.

First off, any form of retaliation is simply not going to happen. Did it cross my mind, well of course. But two wrongs don't make it right and I will not stoop to her level of disgrace. Nor would I actually lie to the officer and tell him I saw the key in her hand when that is not true. Sorry, but I was brought up a certain way and live my life by that moral code. Yup, it may cost me the repair myself, but at least I can look myself in the mirror.

As to blocking in her car. The officer never said a word about that because remember, I immediately telephoned the police and asked to have an officer attend the scene and I advised them on the phone call that I had blocked the other car in. At that point, if they had cautioned me that that action was wrong or illegal, I'd have moved my car. But they made no mention of any problem with doing this. And that call is on tape as are all calls to police. And finally, as others have noted, the lady herself could choose to walk any direction she chose as in no possible way was she herself being restrained. At worst, I could be charged for parking in a laneway and given a parking ticket.

Basically my plan is to get the police report next week (about $30-$50), then file a request for the officer's notes (public documents) and see what the officer has written down. She was formally "cautioned" about this incident which means there is a reasonable fact that the officer believed me. I sure hope he wrote that down, but he's likely written in his notes that he cautioned her at least.
Then I'll go get a body shop estimate of the damage.
Then I'll file a small claims court action against her ($90 filing fee) and as I'll have her address from the police report I can legally serve the papers on her myself. She then has 20 calendar days to either pay the court the amount, or file a notice to fight the claim. Either way, she'll have to take time off work to accomplish this. Then we'll see if she bothers to show up or not. There's a good gut feeling that she'll just ignore it figuring it will go away. In that case, I win by default. If not, she'll have to go back to court a second time to fight the issue.
If I win, I get the repair and my costs, and if I loose I pay my repair and loose the $140 I paid in costs. As I work 5 am to 1 pm daily, I've got afternoons off anyway so I'll not loose any work time. However there's a reasonable chance she'll loose work time just to fight this.

As to my insurance... I've got a $1,000 deductible so as the damage is definately below that amount, the insurance company will not get involved.

So that's where I stand on things right now.
 
janmnastami
Posts: 379
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RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:50 am

Quoting gatorfan (Reply 23):
At that point he grabbed me by the shoulder. I turned around and hit the guy in the face knocking him to the floor.

If you really hit someone in the face because he touched your shoulder, you're not normal. I hope you're joking about what you wrote.
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:03 am

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 33):
If you really hit someone in the face because he touched your shoulder, you're not normal.

The original quote said "grabbed." Grabbed and touched are quite different.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
janmnastami
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RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:59 am

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 34):
The original quote said "grabbed." Grabbed and touched are quite different.

Even if the store employee grabbed him by the shoulder, it doesn't mean that he had to hit him in the face: where's good sense?
 
something
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RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:12 am

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 35):
where's good sense?

In Europe  
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:19 am

Comrade,

Do you realize that if you lived in Cuba you would most likely not have a car? You also realize that if you didn't have a connection to the party, it would be your fault.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5556
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:35 am

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 35):
it doesn't mean that he had to hit him in the face: where's good sense?

I'm kinda with Gatorfan here,

I might have handled the start of the incident differently, like pausing and showing the receipt, where is the harm in that?

Having said that, once out in the street anyone who grabs me is going down.. with extreme prejudice.
There are enough nutjobs in the wild these days that letting someone get the upper hand is just not an option.

Before our Euro friends jump on the "uncivilised and wild colonies bandwagon" I would like to point out that as someone who has travelled widely in North America, Asia and Europe and currently commute by public transport(often late at night) in Sydney, the most threatened and in fear of my safety I have felt has been in some of the gloriously civilised cities of Europe.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
MrChips
Posts: 933
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:56 pm

RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:01 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 32):
Then I'll go get a body shop estimate of the damage.

When you go, tell the estimator that you want him/her to go over the scratches very carefully, and if there even one iota of doubt that they can't be polished out (most of the time, polishing will remove the scratches), get an estimate to have your car repainted. As this will assuredly cost more than your deductible, your insurance company will get involved, which is a good thing for you in this case; it will give you more resources to fight this clueless bitch, plus it will lend your argument a lot more clout in front of a judge in court.
Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:52 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 38):
Having said that, once out in the street anyone who grabs me is going down.. with extreme prejudice.There are enough nutjobs in the wild these days that letting someone get the upper hand is just not an option.

A store detective, or whatever his capacity is, is a nutjob? He was trying to do his job and Gatorfan's reaction did make him suspicious. And as far as ''street fights'' go.. what if somebody pushes you, you think you're the king of the jungle, punch him in the face, he whips out the heater and turns you into a veritable pencil? (I know, they use graphite..)

And yes. I find that extremely childish.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 38):
the most threatened and in fear of my safety I have felt has been in some of the gloriously civilised cities of Europe.

Not quite sure what punching a store detective in the face, simply because maybe you legally can, has to do with the safety of European cities?
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4718
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:55 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 32):

As to blocking in her car. The officer never said a word about that because remember, I immediately telephoned the police and asked to have an officer attend the scene and I advised them on the phone call that I had blocked the other car in. At that point, if they had cautioned me that that action was wrong or illegal, I'd have moved my car. But they made no mention of any problem with doing this.

That's irrelevant. The 911 operator is NOT a police officer, and you likely told them that you witnessed her committing a crime (which you, in fact, did not). Even then, the 911 dispatcher probably has little knowledge of such laws... their job is to get as much information as possible and dispatch the proper authorities, and to keep people safe the best they can over the phone by giving information. They are not there to stop you from committing a crime that they don't know you're doing.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 32):
And finally, as others have noted, the lady herself could choose to walk any direction she chose as in no possible way was she herself being restrained.

Doesn't matter: you prevented her from legally and freely going about her business. That's like saying you threw someone in the bathroom and barricaded the door, only to claim it wasn't kidnapping because there was a window they could climb out of.

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 35):
Even if the store employee grabbed him by the shoulder, it doesn't mean that he had to hit him in the face: where's good sense?

You're getting too specific: the employee illegally tried to detain him. The shoulder grab, while harmless in other situations, becomes the method of the crime. I would have done the same thing.

Quoting something (Reply 40):

Not quite sure what punching a store detective in the face, simply because maybe you legally can, has to do with the safety of European cities?

Because even in this post, you fail to grasp the basic tenants of law and order, and subtly suggest that "that's not how it'd be done in Europe, because we're so much better than the Adulterated States of America".

Quoting something (Reply 40):
A store detective, or whatever his capacity is, is a nutjob? He was trying to do his job

That's hardly a defense for assault and unlawful detainment.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
janmnastami
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:49 pm

RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:12 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 41):
You're getting too specific: the employee illegally tried to detain him. The shoulder grab, while harmless in other situations, becomes the method of the crime. I would have done the same thing.

It's an overreaction. He could have stopped and talked with the store employee: we are persons, not animals.
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:31 pm

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 42):
It's an overreaction. He could have stopped and talked with the store employee: we are persons, not animals.

That is exactly my point. Legally, the situation left room for his reaction, yes and the law has to be laid out that way to work in situations where the use of force becomes necessary. In this situation however it clearly wasn't.

I even applaud the stance he took in not having his rectum searched willy nilly by the store detective and by not following his commands, whilst he was clearly overstepping his legal boundaries.

But the violence was really not necessary. Not, when walking away or calling the police to settle things is still an option.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
ShyFlyer
Posts: 4698
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:38 pm

RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:10 pm

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 35):
Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 34):
The original quote said "grabbed." Grabbed and touched are quite different.

Even if the store employee grabbed him by the shoulder, it doesn't mean that he had to hit him in the face: where's good sense?

Fortunately, you and I have the luxury of examining this scenario from the comfort of our own chairs. We have time to evaluate the merits (or lack thereof) of the various courses of action theoretically available to Gatorfan. He did not. He felt threatened and chose a course of action that would gain him the upper hand in the situation.

Quoting something (Reply 40):
A store detective, or whatever his capacity is, is a nutjob?

Generally speaking, the "store detective" (or what ever BestBuy calls their loss prevention team) does not have the legal authority to detain (physically or otherwise) a suspect unless said suspect has committed (or is believed to have committed) a felony in their presence. Keep in mind, though, these laws vary by location and I'm not intimately familiar with the statutes in effect in Gatorfan's location.

Quoting something (Reply 43):
Not, when walking away or calling the police to settle things is still an option.

Walking away was what Gatorfan was attempting to do when the store employee attempted to physically detain him.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4718
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:40 pm

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 42):
It's an overreaction. He could have stopped and talked with the store employee

But he didn't have to.

You seem to advocate allowing one party to break the law, and then condemn another for following it. I'm not sure if you're being serious or arguing for the sake of arguing.

Quoting something (Reply 43):
In this situation however it clearly wasn't.

So I walk up behind you, grab you by the shoulder, and tell you to come with me. What do you do?

Too late. I've already got you in a choke hold and have the upper hand.

You're constantly passing judgement using facts learned AFTER the incident. It doesn't work like that it real life.

Quoting something (Reply 43):
But the violence was really not necessary. Not, when walking away

He WAS walking away! The employee attempted to forcefully and illegally detain Gatorfan. C'mon dude, we all know you hate when people defend themselves, but try to read the posts before replying!

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 44):
Generally speaking, the "store detective" (or what ever BestBuy calls their loss prevention team) does not have the legal authority to detain (physically or otherwise) a suspect unless said suspect has committed (or is believed to have committed) a felony in their presence. Keep in mind, though, these laws vary by location and I'm not intimately familiar with the statutes in effect in Gatorfan's location.

It doesn't have to be a felony, any crime will suffice. Legally, it is no different than you or I making a so-called "citizen's arrest".

There are severe limitations, both set by law and the company and it's insurers. You have to witness the person take an item, and then walk out the door without paying for it. In between those events, you MUST keep constant visual contact with them (store cameras will suffice in this case). The second you lose sight, your probable cause is gone. You can no longer attempt a detainment.

That's the basic rules, that are in effect in every single jurisdiction in the US.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
janmnastami
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:49 pm

RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:22 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 45):
But he didn't have to.

It doesn't justify what he did. Unfortunately, acting stupidly is not a crime: the store employee just wanted to see his receipt, there wasn't the need to escalate to violence (and please, don't compare a store employee that tries to stop you to see your receipt by grabbing your shoulder with throwing a punch in the face).

I'm surprised that you don't understand the seriousness of what he did.
 
ShyFlyer
Posts: 4698
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:38 pm

RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:27 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 45):
It doesn't have to be a felony, any crime will suffice

Thanks for the clarification. Looking at my company's general orders (I work in security), I see where I got confused...

Quote:
In general, a private person may arrest another (1) for a crime committed or attempted in his or her presence; (2) when the person arrested has committed a felony although not in his or her presence.

.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 45):
You have to witness the person take an item, and then walk out the door without paying for it.

Exactly right. Arresting the wrong person has significant consequences.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
pelican
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:37 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 38):
Having said that, once out in the street anyone who grabs me is going down.. with extreme prejudice.
There are enough nutjobs in the wild these days that letting someone get the upper hand is just not an option.

If you're well trained and used to defend yourself it could work. Otherwise punching someone in the face for grabbing your shoulder could earn you a stab wound in the chest - especially in commuter trains late at night, here in the

Quoting stealthz (Reply 38):
gloriously civilised cities of Europe.


pelican
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30067
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Carpark Incident - Car Damaged, No Police Action

Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:19 pm

You did the right thing.......The Area may be CCTV covered....Access that.....Else get the Police complaint done even if it costs you time & money.....Some folks need to be taught a lesson.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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