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MadameConcorde
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:22 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 95):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 94):
Who is Obama going to bail out next?

The circumstances that necessitated this move were mostly not of his doing.

Bailing out the banksters and mortgage securities thieves. Bear Sterns, Fannie and Freddie, Bank of America, Citigroup, Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase trying to stave off the recession?

What a joke!
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
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casinterest
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:30 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 96):
The States and the Fed work together for the good of the republic ... but these huge federal bureaucracies and of course deficit spending essentially over ride states power. That is not what was intended by the founders....and in the end is counter to the democratic republic. More and more power gets centralized in Washington ... and we the people lose voice and control of our own lives and soon become enemies of our own government ... "terrorists" if you will. Amazing to see it happening right before our eyes.

With an attitude like that , it is a bit terroristic isn't it? The Behavior of the Tea Party.


The US Constitution allows challenges by the states to the powers of the Federal Government by the states . If laws and powers are questioned ,then they can be challenged.

The States benefit very much from Federal payouts to employees and state services. If there are truly services that are not warranted, then they can be challenged and Eliminated.

I mean which of the Federal Goverments responsibilites are you so upset about that is costing us this huge deficit. I guarantee you it isn't NPR or the DoED.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
11Bravo
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:04 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 96):
That is not what was intended by the founders....


That's a pretty tired argument considering some of the other stuff the "founders" advocated like the enslavement of other human beings and the subjugation of women. Just because the "founders" wanted this or that does not mean we should continue to pursue those policy positions. They had some good ideas, but they also had some very bad ideas.
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Dreadnought
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:13 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 102):
That's a pretty tired argument considering some of the other stuff the "founders" advocated like the enslavement of other human beings and the subjugation of women. Just because the "founders" wanted this or that does not mean we should continue to pursue those policy positions. They had some good ideas, but they also had some very bad ideas.

But those particular items were changed via Constitutional Amendments. Are you saying that if we disagree with the character of the person(s) who wrote a law, we can ignore all the laws he wrote? Whatever happened to America being a nation of laws? The intent of a law is a valid argument in court (although frequently ignored these days).

And let's not forget that many of the Founders were against slavery, but gave in on the issue in order to get the Southern states on board. It was what was known as a compromise - a word that should be familiar to all after the last few weeks.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
Mir
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:30 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 97):
How can you say that? How do you know that if left completely alone, unemployment would not have stabilized around 9% on its own?

If I don't know that, then Dxing can't know that the stimulus did nothing.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 97):
Especially when you consider that most of the stimulus money did not actually go to hire anyone (shovel-ready projects?) but simply given to states so that they wouldn't lay people off. Which in itself is hardly a gain - because whether they are working (such as it is) or unemployed, government workers are on the public dole anyway.

I'd rather be giving someone money for doing work than give them money to be unemployed.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 100):
Bailing out the banksters and mortgage securities thieves. Bear Sterns, Fannie and Freddie, Bank of America, Citigroup, Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase trying to stave off the recession?

What a joke!

They had been allowed to grow to a size where they had the government by the balls. That should never have happened, and I'd hope we learn to prevent a "too big to fail" situation in the future, but once you're given a fait-accompli like that, what can you really do?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
baroque
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:39 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 104):
They had been allowed to grow to a size where they had the government by the balls. That should never have happened, and I'd hope we learn to prevent a "too big to fail" situation in the future, but once you're given a fait-accompli like that, what can you really do?

Employ a female government perhaps?   
 
windy95
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:49 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 45):
As far as more severe cuts go, look for payments to the states to be cut significantly

And then the states can stop sending money to DC and keep it in house instead of sending it to DC to be laundered.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 45):
Social Security Trust Fund makes money - interest earned is over $100 Billion a year
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 97):
How can you say that? How do you know that if left completely alone, unemployment would not have stabilized around 9% on its own? Especially when you consider that most of the stimulus money did not actually go to hire anyone (shovel-ready projects?) but simply given to states so that they wouldn't lay people off. Which in itself is hardly a gain - because whether they are working (such as it is) or unemployed, government workers are on the public dole anyway.

When you are paying interest to yourself you are not making money

Quoting casinterest (Reply 101):
I mean which of the Federal Goverments responsibilites are you so upset about that is costing us this huge deficit. I guarantee you it isn't NPR or the DoED

Take all those small ones and it adds up. You seem to be saying we should not start anywhere?

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 102):
That's a pretty tired argument considering some of the other stuff the "founders" advocated like the enslavement of other human beings and the subjugation of women. Just because the "founders" wanted this or that does not mean we should continue to pursue those policy positions

Which is another tired argument. the founders gave the avenue to change those things. Not to just ignore it like the Dems like to do . Or to have a terrorist in a black robe redifine it and make that law.

Quoting Mir (Reply 104):
I'd rather be giving someone money for doing work than give them money to be unemployed

I would rather not. The job is a permanent payout but the unemloyment is only a temporary use of the taxpayers money.
 
11Bravo
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:58 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 103):
But those particular items were changed via Constitutional Amendments.


Slavery was ex post facto ended by amendment, it was de facto ended by the Civil War and the defeat of the South. Is that where we are headed if the South (in the form of the Tea Party) doesn't get it's way now? It took the death of 625,000 Americans to compromise with Southern Conservatives in 1861-1865.
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Dreadnought
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:06 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 107):
Slavery was ex post facto ended by amendment, it was de facto ended by the Civil War and the defeat of the South. Is that where we are headed if the South (in the form of the Tea Party) doesn't get it's way now? It took the death of 625,000 Americans to compromise with Southern Conservatives in 1861-1865.

Wonderful. The idea of responsible, limited government has now been likened to Slavery.  

Do you guys ever bother to listen to yourselves, sometimes?
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
Mir
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:08 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 106):
The job is a permanent payout

As if government employees don't do anything useful.  
Quoting windy95 (Reply 106):
unemloyment is only a temporary use of the taxpayers money.

Not really all that temporary in the current economic climate.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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casinterest
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:25 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 106):
Take all those small ones and it adds up. You seem to be saying we should not start anywhere?

If we are going to start anywhere that really matters, it should be at the Defense, Medicare, and Social Security level. Those are the thee items growing the fastest in the whole budget. DoEd uses it's money to educate folks, and provides some worthwhile education programs. Even George "no Child left Behind" Bush believed in it's usefulness.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 106):
Not to just ignore it like the Dems like to do . Or to have a terrorist in a black robe redifine it and make that law.

The Dems aren't ignoring it, there are functions in our government for reasons, and to say plyfully that it belongs in the hands of 50 different states would create extra beaurocracy between states. Just look at healthcare and insurance companies for an example. And you are now calling one of the branches of our Governmen(Judicial ) terrorists ?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 106):
would rather not. The job is a permanent payout but the unemloyment is only a temporary use of the taxpayers money.

So you would prefer social costs of incarceration and crime over jobs and welfare?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 103):
It was what was known as a compromise - a word that should be familiar to all after the last few weeks.

When the Federal Government and State government compromise for your idea of "limited" but much more expensive (State taxes) Federal Government, then I am sure things will work out.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
11Bravo
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:46 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 108):
Wonderful. The idea of responsible, limited government has now been likened to Slavery.

I said nothing of the sort. I was mearly pointing out that slavery wasn't abolished through compromise. It was abolished by force. I would also add that was not the last time Southern Conservatives had to be coerced into doing the right and honorable thing. The whole civil rights movement was persistantly opposed by white Southern Conservatives to the point where the Army had to intervene on several occasions to uphold your beloved Rule of Law.
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Dreadnought
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:07 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 111):
I said nothing of the sort. I was mearly pointing out that slavery wasn't abolished through compromise. It was abolished by force.

So are you saying that in order to restore responsible, limited government (which is undeniably a moral cause), that the Tea Party should resort to violence?
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
11Bravo
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:30 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 112):
So are you saying that in order to restore responsible, limited government (which is undeniably a moral cause), that the Tea Party should resort to violence?


I'm suggesting that the Tea Party is largely composed of Southern Conservatives who have a long history of political extremism that has manifested itself on many occasions by lawlessness, violence, and high treason. I expect more of the same. As has been the case in the past, their perception of what constitutes a moral cause is highly distorted and reckless.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:18 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 113):

I'm suggesting that the Tea Party is largely composed of Southern Conservatives who have a long history of political extremism that has manifested itself on many occasions by lawlessness, violence, and high treason.

Hmm, you mean like the Black Panther Party, Black Liberation Army, New World Liberation Front, Earth First!, Weather Underground, Symbionese Liberation Army, etc? Pot Kettle Black.

Listen, you seem to have an utter hatred of people you have classed in your own mind as not worthy of consideration. The Tea Party is made up mostly of people who have watched this country transformed from a generally free country to one where meaningless government bureaucracy is squelching economic endeavor.

I know this first hand - my industry (telecom) is being assaulted full force, to the point that we are paying double, even triple taxes and fees unless we can provide paperwork from every single jurisdiction in which our service ends up - About 18,000 different jurisdictions, last I counted. As the finance director for my company of about 80 people, I'm having to deal with it - and I tell you that the government expectations of us are impossible - they have intentionally made it impossible to manages so they can extract more taxes and fees for non-compliance. It is a nightmare. And it all started about 18 months ago. And people like you say that "businesses aren't being taxed enough"? Sc$#% you - we are not all GE with friends at the top of the Obama Administration. This has to stop.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:30 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 96):
We just don't like a huge federal government involved in everything from what we eat to what we purchase to how we live.

Yet, voters keep voting in people who expand the government. Clearly, most American's don't necessarily agree with you.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 97):
Some parts of the government whose main purpose is purchasing goods from the private sector might have such an impact,

You seem to forget the federal government has a small workforce of only about 1.4 million workers excluding defense and postal workers (both of which are, as you would point out, Constitutionally required). Not much in a nation with nearly 170 million workers. Even if you laid off everyone of them (which would require shutting down ATC, the federal court system, all national parks, etc), you'd barely make a dent in the deficit.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 97):
but if, let's say, the Department of Education gets eliminated, schools would not be shutting their doors.

Thousands of teachers would lose their jobs, but I guess they don't count as people in your mind.
 
11Bravo
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:49 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 114):
Hmm, you mean like the Black Panther Party, Black Liberation Army, New World Liberation Front, Earth First!, Weather Underground, Symbionese Liberation Army, etc? Pot Kettle Black.


Are you suggesting the Tea Party, with many elected members in the US Congress, is analogous to those criminal and fringe groups on your list? That's amusing.
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Dreadnought
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:44 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 115):

Thousands of teachers would lose their jobs, but I guess they don't count as people in your mind.

Why would teachers lose their jobs. They were there before the DOE and would remain, under the pay and control of state and local authorities. A lot of bureaucrats would lose their jobs, and I'm fine with that. Once they are gone maybe we can improve our education system again.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 116):

Are you suggesting the Tea Party, with many elected members in the US Congress, is analogous to those criminal and fringe groups on your list? That's amusing.

That was your accusation, that they were prone to "lawlessness, violence, and high treason". LOL, the Tea Party, whose demonstrations are most notable by the fact that they leave the scene of the demonstration as clean as they found it, taking their trash with them!

After Obama's inauguration:


After the Tea Party demonstration Sept. 12th 2009



Oh yeah, we are a rowdy bunch!
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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par13del
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:59 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 115):
Yet, voters keep voting in people who expand the government. Clearly, most American's don't necessarily agree with you.

Let's get real, do you know of any politician who campained on a platform of increased government spending, more deficits, larger government with no fiscal responsibility whatsoever?
Obama platform was about responsible government and health care, are you saying that was code for more spending only or everything is blamed on the Bush tax cuts?

Is it possible that a number of politicians have been wolfs in sheep clothing, going to the people with one message then on arrival in Washington living up to the promises made to special interest? A large number of Americans are in debt, have lost jobs and are struggling to make ends meet and are loosing their homes because they cannot make payments, I find it hard to believe that they would deliberately elect politicians to go to Washington to place the country in the same position.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:13 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 117):
That was your accusation, that they were prone to "lawlessness, violence, and high treason". LOL, the Tea Party, whose demonstrations are most notable by the fact that they leave the scene of the demonstration as clean as they found it, taking their trash with them!

Well, it is somewhat harder to pick up when you have a milllion people, versus one hundred at a tea party group.  

[Edited 2011-08-02 19:36:42]
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:24 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 117):
Why would teachers lose their jobs. They were there before the DOE and would remain, under the pay and control of state and local authorities.

That would require the states/municipalities to have the money to make up the shortfall from losing DOED funding. They don't have the money, so would be forced to layoff teachers. The vast majority of DOED money is used for two purposes: grants for education and block grants to pay for teachers. The DOED has only about 5,000 employees, so you'd barely impact the bureaucrats, but you'd send lots of teachers to the unemployment line.

Not to mention all the low income kids who would lose access to education, but I'm guessing they don't count as people either.

Quoting par13del (Reply 118):
Is it possible that a number of politicians have been wolfs in sheep clothing, going to the people with one message then on arrival in Washington living up to the promises made to special interest?

I'm sure that is happening, but why do people keep voting for these wolfs over and over again....even after they've been exposed? Despite reckless spending, many Congressmen keep getting re-elected.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:44 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 120):
I'm sure that is happening, but why do people keep voting for these wolfs over and over again....even after they've been exposed? Despite reckless spending, many Congressmen keep getting re-elected.

The power of bulldinky, uninformed voters, the power of massive amounts of donated money, the power of massive advertising, made possible from those massive donations. A bought and paid for congress is the result, the same old hacks get re-elected. We should not forget, the power of the pseudo news programs on TV.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
baroque
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:46 am

Meanwhile in the real world, Moody is keeping the AAA credit rating, but the Chinese rating agency has dropped the rating AGAIN! Apparently the first downgrade in China was last year and now it has gone from A+ to A"
http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/201...ondon-headlines-307/#axzz1TwtfDiw1

Dagong Global Credit Rating, a relative newcomer to sovereign debt rating realm and little known outside of China, said in a statement that the US decision to raise the borrowing ceiling will not change the fact that the growth of its debt has outpaced its overall economic growth and fiscal revenue.

Note that they look at revenue, not just debt. Message to TPs??

That fly must have been hearing interesting things for quite a while.

Also interesting is that if China has a different view of the credit rating, it would also be "expecting" higher interest rates, or at least it should. How is that worked out?

Also in the real world, stock market diving on news of poor US growth and "fears of a double dip". Now I wonder if this wonderful new package will help growth or not.
 
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par13del
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:23 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 120):
I'm sure that is happening, but why do people keep voting for these wolfs over and over again....even after they've been exposed? Despite reckless spending, many Congressmen keep getting re-elected.

Well the TP is new so let's see what new movement shows up on the Democratic side, if both have a new set of politicians in the house after the next election maybe things will change?


Quoting Baroque (Reply 122):
Also in the real world, stock market diving on news of poor US growth and "fears of a double dip". Now I wonder if this wonderful new package will help growth or not.

I guess this lends credance to what many were saying whose voices were ignored / drowned out, the debt ceiling debate had little or nothing to do with what is presently taking place, the poor economic growth numbers were not built up over the last two weeks.
As usual that's a guess, the last two weeks may well have been the kicker.
 
baroque
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:47 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 123):
the last two weeks may well have been the kicker.

Doubt if they helped. That longish word, confidence, another "C" word. And lack of confidence seems to be like another "C" word, 6 letters this time!

Best bit is as I understand it they have now gone on holidays!
 
StarAC17
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:31 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 120):
I'm sure that is happening, but why do people keep voting for these wolfs over and over again....even after they've been exposed? Despite reckless spending, many Congressmen keep getting re-elected.

Because most people don't have an issue with their congressman/woman because they serve their district well which is their main responsibility, if said congress-person gets the things they they promise to their district they will get re-elected every time regardless if their voting history doesn't help the country at large. Two saying still remain true

- All politics is local.
- All spending is pork unless in my district
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casinterest
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:00 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 114):
know this first hand - my industry (telecom) is being assaulted full force, to the point that we are paying double, even triple taxes and fees unless we can provide paperwork from every single jurisdiction in which our service ends up - About 18,000 different jurisdictions, last I counted. As the finance director for my company of about 80 people, I'm having to deal with it - and I tell you that the government expectations of us are impossible - they have intentionally made it impossible to manages so they can extract more taxes and fees for non-compliance. It is a nightmare. And it all started about 18 months ago. And people like you say that "businesses aren't being taxed enough"? Sc$#% you

But are those taxes local, state, or Federal, or a combination of all?

Quoting par13del (Reply 123):
I guess this lends credance to what many were saying whose voices were ignored / drowned out, the debt ceiling debate had little or nothing to do with what is presently taking place, the poor economic growth numbers were not built up over the last two weeks.
As usual that's a guess, the last two weeks may well have been the kicker.

The Debt Ceiling fight has an effect on the economy, but the economy still has issues itself. When tax rates are not expected to remain stable for a long period of time, there is a lot of businesses that are going to be hesitant ot invest. Everyone that logically thinks about how large the deficit is, and how much this country has to spend to keep going knows that taxes will have to be raised. The big question, is now much and when. The Debt Ceiling agreement on the budget items, only kicked the can down the street to another Congressional Session and a new Presidential period.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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par13del
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:29 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 124):
Best bit is as I understand it they have now gone on holidays!

Well that's probably also bad news if they did not complete the re-authorization of the FAA which means they have deliberately left more taxe revenue on the table, folks were estimating that close to a billions dollars may be lost in FAA taxes if the bill was not completed before their recess.
Talk about the TP spreading their infectuos non-tax mantra to the Dems  
 
dxing
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:36 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 83):

Great, but that doesn't sound like a criticism of the firm that celebrated record profits by shipping its last remaining US jobs overseas. How is that helping the situation?

No, it isn't. What it does show is that this government, through regulatory policy can be just as damaging to investment in this country.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 83):
The nation is swollen with immigrants and low wage service workers who don't consume what the middle classes of the 1960s and 70s did. My dad and his partners recently started a new data storage consultancy and chose to locate in Singapore instead of the US. Taxes are high there comparatively. Why? Huge market expansion in Indonesia, Vietnam, Malaysia, etc. They looked at the business case for the US and found their potential market would be anemic at best.

There is a reason they are called "emerging" markets. They need all the stuff that we already have but they need it all right now instead of where we already have it and just have to replace every few years piecemeal.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 84):

Without massive additional cuts, the current plan doesn't come close to balancing the budget.

And short of draconian cuts you won't get a balanced budget this year or next. The situation has gotten that bad. You can however, begin to work towards it but the only way the President is inclined to go that way is by being dragged there kicking and screaming. Same with many liberal democrats like Pelosi and Reid.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 84):
And legally speaking, most of the cuts proposed aren't even binding which means future Congresses can easily undo them.

Which makes the passage of a balanced budget amendment so critically important to our future. That alone would help to stabilize the global market.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 84):

You seen our unemployment rate lately? Private industry has been destroying jobs like crazy or replacing them with lower paying jobs.

Private industry and the private capital that go hand in hand with it aren't going to invest in a country where they are not sure where the government is going in terms of regulation and taxation.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 84):

How much we spend on defense is a choice to.

But by the Constitution there must be some sort of defense and it has varied over the centuries. There doesn't have to be any welfare, medicaid, SS, or medicare nor am I or anyone else calling for their outright abolition. They do need to be reworked and revamped however to make them financially viable because right now in their present form they aren't.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 84):

You do realize that government spending increased massively throughout the 1980's.

The majority of it defense related which helped, along with many other factors, to bring down the Soviet Union.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 84):

So your solution for our economy is to cling to dying industries that produce products people don't want?

The solution is certainly not for government to regulate a perfectly good business out of existence. If CFL's are what people wanted, they would abandon incandescents and buy the CFL's. If the government thinks they are the way to go, instead of outlawing incandescents they should make it easier to produce the CFL's here.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 90):

Yet if the economic downturn of 1999 and 2000 sealed the doom of the Surplus, then why didn't Bush and The Republicans support a sundown on the Taxcuts of 2001 and 2003?



Because recessions are short term. Government spending is long term and that is what needs to be addressed. They initially sought too and then got derailed by events unforeseen like 9/11. They still could have done more to cut costs and for that I think they failed.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 90):

Can't have it both ways. you can't launch 2 wars and support full out tax cuts that doomed the surplus.

The tax cuts did not doom the surplus. As a mater of fact your previous line says they didn't. If government spending in other areas had been brought under control the deficits would have been near zero. That's the way it ought to be. A balanced budget amendment would go a long way to creating that situation.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 90):

Go look at the top tax rates of the time, and you will see how the Governemnt started paying off it's debt and also how the economy started recovering from 1934 on . Key words , recovering, because the economy tooks a shot from 29-33 that was about as bad as you can get.

Go look at how many individuals were paying that top rate. At one point there was only one person in America paying it. Check unemployment rates from 30-40, see how much difference there was. The country was in a depression with many people out of work long term, homes and farms repossessed, manufacturing shuttered, and capital dried up. Please don't try and rewrite history here.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 90):
The economy recovered finally due to the fact that so much rebuilding had to take place outside of the US, and US manufacturing was more than up to the task. Plus a bunch of servicemen and woman had saved quite a bit during the war times.

Which goes back to my original statement to another poster who still doesn't get it. After the war the United States was essentially the last industrial power left standing. You could get away with higher rates as business and individuals were running at full steam with no competition on the globe. People like to say Americans made it better then when the truth is they were the only ones making it then. That started to change by the 1960's and President Kennedy was smart enough to realize it hence his push for lower taxes both private and corporate.


Quoting casinterest (Reply 90):

Don't look at the depression like it was a square wave. It was a rolling wave, with a downturn and an upturn.

Again, by 1938, with millions and billions spent on projects like the WPA, the economy was still stalled. It was not until private industry got going for the war effort that recovery was achieved. After the war the boom lasted only until other countries got back on their industrial feet.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 90):

81-83 won't work now. The World Economy is much different now.

The world economy had nothing to do with government getting out of the way of business. The biggest problem we have now is government with all its regulation. That is not to say there should not be legitimate safeguards in all areas but the pendulum is tipped way to far in the direction of over regulation.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Mir
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:19 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 128):
Private industry and the private capital that go hand in hand with it aren't going to invest in a country where they are not sure where the government is going in terms of regulation and taxation.

The Tea Party trying to reverse the course of the Administration certainly isn't reducing any uncertainty about where the government is going. And if they should manage to get into power, once they got out (which would likely be pretty soon, not because of them but because of the general dissatisfaction with government in the US) we'd have the same uncertainty again. The uncertainty over the direction of the country is more a social issue than a political one.

Quoting dxing (Reply 128):
A balanced budget amendment would go a long way to creating that situation.

A balanced budget amendment is a great idea on paper, but it would be absolutely unworkable in practice. It's very easy to fudge the numbers to make it look like an unbalanced budget look balanced, and it's very easy to fudge the numbers to make a balanced budget look like it isn't. That's going to lead to lots of court challenges from various interest groups, and I don't want the judiciary anywhere near budget dealings.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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par13del
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:07 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 129):
That's going to lead to lots of court challenges from various interest groups, and I don't want the judiciary anywhere near budget dealings.

I have seen this comment before, would like to ask how such a situation would arise?
The federal government has few mandates for spending, probably none for special interest groups. If the budget must by consittutional amendment be balanced and they decide not to fund PBS for example, who is going to sue and on what grounds?
Not saying its not possible, just trying to understand the comment.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 13059
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:51 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 128):
Because recessions are short term. Government spending is long term and that is what needs to be addressed. They initially sought too and then got derailed by events unforeseen like 9/11

Yes , Government spending is long term, which is the reason the 1992-2000 Regime did not try to reduce taxes. They were trying to balance the budget and pay off the debt. When the Tax Cuts came in 2001 and 2003 they should have been a short term Stimulus cut.

Quoting par13del (Reply 130):
They still could have done more to cut costs and for that I think they failed

But where do you cut costs? The Biggest Budget Items are Social Security, Medicare , and Defense. Any Party willing to go slicing and dicing on those budgets will be committing political suicide.

Quoting dxing (Reply 128):
The tax cuts did not doom the surplus. As a mater of fact your previous line says they didn't. If government spending in other areas had been brought under control the deficits would have been near zero. That's the way it ought to be. A balanced budget amendment would go a long way to creating that situation.

No the Tax Cuts did doom the Surplus when they became permanent. The Surplus was based on taxation at those levels. The wars were what pushed us into the hyperspending phase. A balanced budget sounds really cool. However it remains to be seen what balanced is for the politicians. To reach a balanced budget we have to predict revenue and spending. So far no one is quite that good at prediciting it.

Quoting dxing (Reply 128):
Go look at how many individuals were paying that top rate. At one point there was only one person in America paying it. Check unemployment rates from 30-40, see how much difference there was. The country was in a depression with many people out of work long term, homes and farms repossessed, manufacturing shuttered, and capital dried up. Please don't try and rewrite history here.

I am not rewriting histroy. 34 marked the start of the recovery. When you recover from a broken leg, do you count it from the time you took the cast off , or the time they put the cast on?

Quoting dxing (Reply 128):
Which goes back to my original statement to another poster who still doesn't get it. After the war the United States was essentially the last industrial power left standing. You could get away with higher rates as business and individuals were running at full steam with no competition on the globe.

Which goes to my point, if everyone is paying the same tax rate, then everyone is equal. In the US we need to pay of the deficit. The tax rate has to go up, and spending has to go down. Have you even considered the fact that the "Balanced budget" must include some sort of Principal pay down on the deficit? The Top Tax payers will always pay the top tax rate and gladly do it, because they are in the TOP tax bracket due to having MORE income. It is just like I am paying in the 25% tax bracket. I don't want to be paying just 10% because I know if I did, I would be making LESS money.

Quoting dxing (Reply 128):

Again, by 1938, with millions and billions spent on projects like the WPA, the economy was still stalled. It was not until private industry got going for the war effort that recovery was achieved. After the war the boom lasted only until other countries got back on their industrial feet.

The economy was not stalled in 1938. It was recovering .
http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/...&3Place=N&Update=Update&JavaBox=no

The boom lasted long after the rebuilding, because by that point a whole new Generation (Boomers) was going through the world .

Quoting dxing (Reply 128):
The world economy had nothing to do with government getting out of the way of business.

Yes, it got out of the way of bussiness , but it increased the federal Deficit, which is exactly why tax rates need to go up to reduce the deficit.

Year Total
Receipts Outlays Surplus or Deficit(−)


1977 355,559 409,218 -53,659
1978 399,561 458,746 -59,185
1979 463,302 504,028 -40,726
1980 517,112 590,941 -73,830
1981 599,272 678,241 -78,968
1982 617,766 745,743 -127,977
1983 600,562 808,364 -207,802
1984 666,438 851,805 -185,367
1985 734,037 946,344 -212,308
1986 769,155 990,382 -221,227

from :
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy11/sheets/hist01z1.xls
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
Mir
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:38 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 130):
If the budget must by consittutional amendment be balanced and they decide not to fund PBS for example, who is going to sue and on what grounds?
Not saying its not possible, just trying to understand the comment.

Those who support PBS, for example, could do some accounting work to make it appear that the budget is unbalanced, and thus unconstitutional. They wouldn't be able to get the funding for PBS restored by such means, but they would be able to gum up the works in a very significant way, and it would be the threat of that happening that people would use to push their agenda.

Keep in mind that if a budget is in fact ruled to be unconstitutional, the judge or judges in the case would have to find a remedy for it. This could mean sending the budget back to Congress for revising, or it could mean the judge imposing a solution (not very democratic). Sending the budget back to Congress would work, except that since budgets are a yearly thing and it's likely that the legal challenge would take longer than that (especially if the appeals process led to the Supreme Court), we might find ourselves in a position where a budget from a previous year would have to be retroactively fixed, which has impacts on future budgets, etc. In other words, a whole mess.

If the people don't like what's being done with the budget, the solution seems to be pretty simple - vote for different representatives who will have different budgetary priorities.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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par13del
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:38 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 132):
Those who support PBS, for example, could do some accounting work to make it appear that the budget is unbalanced, and thus unconstitutional. They wouldn't be able to get the funding for PBS restored by such means, but they would be able to gum up the works in a very significant way, and it would be the threat of that happening that people would use to push their agenda.

Ok, now I think i understand what you are talking about, I honestly never thought of such, assumption being the mother of all evils, I looked at this working the way the current bill process worked.
The house reviews / creates a budget voting or submiting for debate only after it is balanced, the CBO then reviews and confirms the balance. Budget is then approved and forwarded to the senate who may re-arrange, which may or may not affect the balance numbers, but even if it does not, any changes made would have to hit the reconciliation process.
I admit to not having looked at departments since they would be given an annual budget within which to live, when they go over if no overdraft was created in the orginal budget for exceptional spending - assume that would be there as one will always have miscellaneous items occur such as natural disasters - the department would have to start making adjustments. Prepartion of budgets by the various federal departments / agencies would become more important since they would be actual numbers that they have to live by versus minor guidelines.

Interesting thought process, will review and rethink now that I understand your trend of thought

Thanks
 
baroque
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:32 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 131):

1977 355,559 409,218 -53,659
1978 399,561 458,746 -59,185
1979 463,302 504,028 -40,726
1980 517,112 590,941 -73,830
1981 599,272 678,241 -78,968
1982 617,766 745,743 -127,977
1983 600,562 808,364 -207,802
1984 666,438 851,805 -185,367
1985 734,037 946,344 -212,308
1986 769,155 990,382 -221,227

from :
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy...1.xls

If you do % changes it is clear that Reagan had two beliefs, big government, big deficits!

Quoting par13del (Reply 127):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 124):
Best bit is as I understand it they have now gone on holidays!

Well that's probably also bad news if they did not complete the re-authorization of the FAA which means they have deliberately left more tax revenue on the table, folks were estimating that close to a billions dollars may be lost in FAA taxes if the bill was not completed before their recess.

Well I did have the sarcasm button on. Still on for "A job well done"!!!
 
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WarRI1
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:54 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 134):
If you do % changes it is clear that Reagan had two beliefs, big government, big deficits!

Shhh, don't say that too loud, he may have fired the union air traffic controllers, opening an era of union destruction, he may have had big government, big deficits, but he is a Saint to many, even though he turned his back on his former union brother's and sister's. He could tell a good joke though.

[Edited 2011-08-03 21:14:08]
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
BMI727
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:47 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 135):
even though he turned his back on his former union brother's and sister's.

Yes, how dare the president turn his back on people who are openly defying the law.   You're even more of a shill than I thought.

But the union in their stupidity unwittingly helped win the Cold War. The Soviets saw Reagan push the button to fire all of the controllers on strike and wondered what other button he might be willing to push.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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WarRI1
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:22 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 136):
Yes, how dare the president turn his back on people who are openly defying the law. You're even more of a shill than I thought.

But the union in their stupidity unwittingly helped win the Cold War. The Soviets saw Reagan push the button to fire all of the controllers on strike and wondered what other button he might be willing to push.

I do have to give you credit, when I want amusement, I just read your unique responses. Keep up the good work, I need a chuckle now and again.     I can now go to bed, amused once again.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:33 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 133):
The house reviews / creates a budget voting or submiting for debate only after it is balanced, the CBO then reviews and confirms the balance. Budget is then approved and forwarded to the senate who may re-arrange, which may or may not affect the balance numbers, but even if it does not, any changes made would have to hit the reconciliation process.

There's no guarantee that the numbers will be the same after the bill hits the Senate and the reconciliation process, and even if they are, the CBO's methodology can still be challenged.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 136):
But the union in their stupidity unwittingly helped win the Cold War. The Soviets saw Reagan push the button to fire all of the controllers on strike and wondered what other button he might be willing to push.

You make it seem like giving the impression that your head of state is crazy enough to do anything in a world where MAD is the order of the day is a good idea.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:17 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 137):
I do have to give you credit, when I want amusement, I just read your unique responses. Keep up the good work, I need a chuckle now and again.

You cannot seriously be endorsing the actions of people who brazenly and deliberately violated the law.

Quoting Mir (Reply 140):
You make it seem like giving the impression that your head of state is crazy enough to do anything in a world where MAD is the order of the day is a good idea.

First of all, that belief is an extremely important prerequisite for any mutually assured destruction scenario.

Secondly, by the time Reagan became president, MAD was all but dead and replaced with Nuclear Utilization Target Selection school of thought which was made possible by the advances in nuclear weapons and their delivery system. By the 1980s, a nuclear war that would not result in the destruction of the world was very much a possibility.

The upshot of all of this is that the controllers' strike in 1981 proved that Reagan was not one to back down, in contrast to Jimmy Carter who was something of an empty suit, and in many ways set the tone for what was ultimately a very successful presidency.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:14 am

This is scary. US debt visualized:

http://usdebt.kleptocracy.us/

Time to raise the taxes and lower the expenses... now!!!

[Edited 2011-08-04 04:15:13]
 
Mir
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:18 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 141):
First of all, that belief is an extremely important prerequisite for any mutually assured destruction scenario.

The belief that you'll respond to a nuclear launch, yes, but not the belief that you'll start one. That's what gives people fits about Iran now - if they were more rational, we wouldn't have such a problem with them getting nuclear weapons because we'd know that they weren't going to start flipping them at people for no real reason. But that's not the case.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 141):
Secondly, by the time Reagan became president, MAD was all but dead and replaced with Nuclear Utilization Target Selection school of thought which was made possible by the advances in nuclear weapons and their delivery system.

For the US, but not for the Soviets, who didn't have similar technology. Which doesn't make things any better - when your opponent can destroy you but you can't destroy them, that only makes you more on edge.

It's important to remember that two years later the world found itself much closer to nuclear war than anyone would have liked.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:52 pm

Racists ..terrorist and seditious talk indeed . You just don't understand , we in Washington know what we are doing and you little people just shut up and be thankful we are in charge.  

In the big picture ... the debt ceiling brings up the core debate between political philosophies every few years. I would say the "socialists" have and will be winning that battle . Obama's problem is the same problem Bill Ayres , K Marx , Lennin and the US liberals have had for 100 years ... "what to do with 20-30 million capitalists in the US"?. So the debt ceiling debate serves them to batter the capitalists every few years and to slowly but surely get to that 51% dependent level.

Why even have a ceiling indeed...   

[Edited 2011-08-04 10:01:22 by SA7700]
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
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Aaron747
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:10 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 145):
Obama's problem is the same problem Bill Ayres , K Marx , Lennin and the US liberals have had for 100 years ... "what to do with 20-30 million capitalists in the US"?. So the debt ceiling debate serves them to batter the capitalists every few years and to slowly but surely get to that 51% dependent level.

Sorry AGM, you've gone off the deep end yet again. Marx and Lenin would never have had their political campaigns bankrolled by executives of Goldman Sachs, much less have given them choice seating at the inaugural ball. Obama did both. Get the facts straight - this President is as bought and paid for as any other.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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WarRI1
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:11 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 145):
what to do with 20-30 million capitalists in the US"?. So the debt ceiling debate serves them to batter the capitalists every few years and to slowly but surely get to that 51% dependent level.

20 to 30 million capitalists, controlling the 310 million person population of the US? I suggest that the Capitalists are doing alright, look at the tax codes, the loopholes in those codes. The corruption of our bought and paid for government. the anti labor laws in effect. The sucking up of the wealth to the already wealthy. Who do you think is losing??
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:21 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 146):
Get the facts straight - this President is as bought and paid for as any other.



In 2008 that was not the case ... For the most part the Corporations have bended his way , not the opposite. GE , GM , Banks and other F100 companies quickly jumped on the green agenda , cap and trade and Obama care in full support. It was not the other way around ... his take over of the bond holders in GM sent a very clear message . The big multinational corporations are not what I call "capitalists" in the true sense... My reference is too small to medium independent American companies .

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 147):
Who do you think is losing??



Well I was poor and I have made a nice living and risen through the system by sacrifice and hard work. Now I am supposed to carry people on my back (other than my family) because they cant or don't want too do what I did? America is losing ...
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:36 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 148):
Now I am supposed to carry people on my back (other than my family) because they cant or don't want too do what I did?

If they can't, then yes. If they don't want to, that's another matter.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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WarRI1
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:54 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 148):
Well I was poor and I have made a nice living and risen through the system by sacrifice and hard work. Now I am supposed to carry people on my back (other than my family) because they cant or don't want too do what I did? America is losing ...

In the poor category, and not having proper food and clothing, I was there also. I try never to forget what it was like, It marked me. I never want to see others, especailly children go through this like I did. Millions of others of my generation went through this. One should never forget, and be the better for it. This budget deal is pathetic, nothing was solved, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the country goes to hell. Let us thank the modern day politician, the corrupt government, the special interests who deny opportunity to those who need it most. Job, jobs, they do nothing for us overseas. When we learn that, their maybe hope once again.

[Edited 2011-08-04 10:24:05]
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:30 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 147):
This budget deal is pathetic, nothing was solved, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the country goes to hell. Let us thank the modern day politician, the corrupt government, the special interests who deny opportunity to those who need it most. Job, jobs, they do nothing for us overseas. When we learn that, their maybe hope once again.



We agree 100% ... so what can we as citizens do ? I suggest we Cut off the money and power from those politicians ... that's the only thing we can do.

Government can not create jobs ... no matter what Obama say's. What they can do is protect a fair stable environment for you and me to create jobs. We create real long lasting productive jobs ... not the bureaucracies who drain and waste .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
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WarRI1
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RE: The USA Budget Deal - Will It Work?

Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:31 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 139):
You cannot seriously be endorsing the actions of people who brazenly and deliberately violated the law.

Oh! I certainly can advocate breaking the law. Every great social upheaval in history involved breaking laws. Someones law. Not a novel idea. You are aware of the start of our own revolution, why it involved the law about taxing tea. The King said it, it was the law. Imagine that?
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.

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