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shamrock604
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:54 pm

Quoting Airport (Reply 82):

I think anyone with half a brain realises that Vancouver is not "messed up".

It scores highly on standard of living, and is known as a clean, peaceful city. Riots can happen anywhere.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:02 pm

I live in Harrow, probably one of the safest areas in Greater London and so far it has remained that way. It's still your typical London borough, there are some areas you just don't go to on your own whether day or night but it's mostly a much nicer place to live than nearby boroughs such as Enfield, Islington and Haringey. Relations between the police and the public in Harrow has always been good but these "riots" are no longer about fight back against police brutality or wanting justice for Mark Duggan's murder, it's just young people of this city who have been brought up believing there are no consequences and it's always someone else's fault so now they've seen an opportunity and are seeing how far they can push it.

It's nothing to do with the deprived area's or the closing of youth centres, I doubt many of those kids we're seeing on the streets causing this trouble have ever step foot inside a youth centre. I have always found the excuse that young people are bored so join gangs and turn to crime completely ridiculous.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 64):
A woman in Ealing was in bed asleep and had her door kicked in by two masked raiders. Another games arcade was raided and staff taken hostage and threatened.

I visited Ealing Broaway this morning, was a complete mess and all cordoned off by police, I've never seen London like it before and it was nowhere as bad as the north and east London violence.
 
baroque
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:43 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 98):
But what happened to Bismarck in the end?

Well in this case if it/he could get rids of the Hoods, that would be a sacrifice in a good cause, probably unlike the last encounter????? Get the tactics sorted first and then we can look at the strategy of a long game???

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 101):
It's nothing to do with the deprived area's or the closing of youth centres, I doubt many of those kids we're seeing on the streets causing this trouble have ever step foot inside a youth centre. I have always found the excuse that young people are bored so join gangs and turn to crime completely ridiculous.

It was something. Gangs were all the go when I was a kid, but not quite this. And we were rather in awe of the law. Joining a group - inevitably soon called a gang - is not the odd bit, it is them turning so violent that is unusual.

How about the amount and type of contact they have with law enforcement agencies being a factor?

I expect the Royal Commission will tell us something. Yes, I do know it has not been set up, but watch this space????
 
SmithAir747
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:45 pm

Having lived and studied in London for 3 years (2004-2007), and having called London my 2nd home and having fallen in love with the city from the first day, it hurts me to see my world favourite city going through this.

How is the situation in central London? I lived in the Russell Square area (specifically, in a hall of residence of the University of London) and attended the Guy's Hospital campus of King's College London. If you plopped me in the middle of London, I could find my way around anywhere (I got to know the city well by walking all over it). I know London better than I do my current home, San Francisco!

Has the rioting spread to central London?

As a former resident of London, and still a Londoner at heart today, I hope and pray my world favourite city pulls through this, and puts down the riots soon!

SmithAir747--today, and always, a Londoner!  
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
 
GDB
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:09 pm

Some of the 'oppressed youth' appearing before Magistrates today, (from the BBC);


The Metropolitan force has released what it says will be the "first of many" CCTV images of rioting suspects, while 32 people have appeared in court charged with offences such as burglary and criminal damage during the previous riots.

Among them were a graphic designer, college students, a youth worker, a university graduate and a man signed up to join the army. Some gave non-London addresses. Eighteen were remanded in custody.

So far 563 people have been arrested and 105 charged in connection with violence in the capital.
 
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OA260
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:13 pm

Trouble broken out in Manchester and department store apparently on fire !
 
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par13del
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:14 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 104):
The Metropolitan force has released what it says will be the "first of many" CCTV images of rioting suspects, while 32 people have appeared in court charged with offences such as burglary and criminal damage during the previous riots.

Would love to know how serious the penalty.
 
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:24 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 100):
I think anyone with half a brain realises that Vancouver is not "messed up".

It scores highly on standard of living, and is known as a clean, peaceful city. Riots can happen anywhere.

Completely agreed, which is why I felt so put off by the media storm which seemed to try and label Vancouver as being a bad place to be all for the sake of sensationalism. It couldn't be further from the truth.
 
GDB
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:37 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 106):
Would love to know how serious the penalty.

Violent disorder, affray, are generally custodial.
The challenge will be to link charges of burglary, which can in serious circumstances or after a string of such offences, can result in prison too, with riotous assembly.

A work colleague is a magistrate covering West London, you'll soon be busy, don't let any of them out on remand even if it means putting 4,5,6 of them to a cell. I said.
He reckoned that him and his colleagues won't be bailing anyone likely to re-offend.

(If there are not enough prison places, stick them in some desolate, middle of nowhere ex military facility, we've plenty of them. In the late 1990's a temporary prison ship was commissioned).

Up to 16000 police in London tonight, four times the usual, with access to baton rounds though one spokesman said they did not want to have to use them. (Wonder if those whose businesses, homes, lives are threatened make of that).

Not far from me is Southall, a West London town, with one of the oldest communities of immigrants from the Indian Sub-continent and their descendants, not far from the Western most extremity of last nights trouble. Another colleague, a resident there, was getting texts from his son saying the locals were organising lookouts and patrols to defend their homes and businesses if need be.
Southall is a very close knit place, outsiders will stick out and anyone local who starts trouble won't last long.
30 years ago they ran a threatening bunch of racists from the National Front, there to cause the usual trouble and to see a skinhead band playing in a local pub, quite literally out of town.

The Police are to make greater use of 'Jankel' armoured vehicles apparently, which were used with some success in a part of London last night.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmcl/2536082797/

[Edited 2011-08-09 11:40:49]
 
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falstaff
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:44 pm

Quoting something (Reply 78):
About a military deployment on domestic grounds, I'm not sure that's legally possible.

I am sure it is legal. Decades violence and troops in Northern Ireland prove that.

Quoting JL418 (Reply 87):
Probably the world's less gifted looter:

I know a guy who was 11 when riots broke out in Detroit, in 1967. He looted marbles from a 5-10 store.

Quoting sunshine79 (Reply 6):
Bradford city centre, and the people of the city love to protest and riot, so no doubt we will be on alert to evacuate in the coming days.

When I first read that their was rioting in the UK I assumed it was Bradford, before I read the story. I have been to Bradford and a lot of it looks like a thrid world country. Last year I saw a bunch Osama Bin Laden looking guys shouting in the streets.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 88):
Or by multiculturalism do you just mean that non-white people are in the country, and you think that they are naturally barbaric?

I think that most of the non-whites are from 3rd world countries and bring their 3rd world values and culture with them. It isn't a race issue it is the fact that the 3rd world has come and civilized society can't deal with it in its soft ways. These people understand only force and they need it given to them.

I don't think most of these people actualy want to be British. They just want free stuff and welfare money. They come to the UK for the welfare.

The rioters need to be shot dead in the streets and anyone found to be non citizens needs to removed from the country.

They want to bring their 3rd world crap to a civilized country... They need to be treated the only they understand and the way they have shown they have deserved to be treated.




Quoting seb146 (Reply 97):
Anarchy groups from San Diego and Eugene went there simply to break stuff and not protest the world bank or any policies.

Anarchists should be treated in a way that deprives them off all of their rights. If they really are anarchists they should not complain because without the rule of law you have no rights and that seems to be what they want. You can claim "human rights" all you want, but when no government is there to back up your rights it means nothing.

Quoting something (Reply 60):
And then there are those who just hate everything British, who still consider themselves to be whatever nationality their parents are (even if they've never visited that country), who don't feel at home in the UK and therefore, behave like even more useless trash than they already are. And this is not the politics or the society's fault. They want to be different and don't want to be British. They are free to leave and go home anytime though and I hope some will have their wish fulfilled following their arrest over this.

The newspapers here are call the protestors English youths. I wonder how many of them are really English and how many claim to be something else.

These people can claim discrimiantion all they want , but when you come from a 3rd world country, have little or no skills, and no desire to conform to the general population you will not be viewed as a productive member of society and you aren't going to get a good job.
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kaitak
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:45 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 106):
Would love to know how serious the penalty.

Unfortunately, it will probably be a custodial sentence of about 6-12 months, and they'll probably be out in three -ready to cause more havoc.

The sentences need to be more severe; something along the lines of the military prison in Colchester, for example; i.e. not just sitting in a cell for 23 hours a day, but tough and tiring physical activity.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 17):
Quoting kaitak (Reply 2):
A bus, several police cars and several premises were burned out by the police.


By the rioters, you mean.

Er ... yes, slight lack of co-ordination between brain, fingers and keyboard.
  
 
gkirk
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:54 pm

A kid was arrested in Glasgow after apparently trying to organise something in Scotland.
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lewis
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:02 pm

Quoting JL418 (Reply 75):
Probably because they've been ordered to do so... And, who knows, maybe the fact of not having yet a chief constable (don't they?) is adding problems. From what I've seen so far it seems that police doesn't want to crack down violently, don't know for which reasons as it doesn't seem to be working very well.

Yep, the Met is only ordered to respond with violence only against university students (including paraplegics) demonstrating for their right to affordable education. Chavs looting is a no-go area, even if London is burning for the 4th day... Disgusting.
 
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:09 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 112):
Yep, the Met is only ordered to respond with violence only against university students (including paraplegics) demonstrating for their right to affordable education. Chavs looting is a no-go area, even if London is burning for the 4th day... Disgusting.

Damned if they do, and damned if they don't  
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lewis
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:15 pm

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 113):
Damned if they do, and damned if they don't

Well, starting fires all over the city and looting is different from demonstrating and should require appropriate measures and response. I doubt the British would even think of complaining in this case if police acted with force against the looters/vandals, like they did when the police was violent against simple protestors.

I had friends who took part in peaceful demonstrations for tuition fees and I was told that the police reacted violently to protestors (same as the G meetings). We all remember seeing footage from those events. And now you have people acting like animals for the past 72 hrs and the police is doing nothing other than looking at CCTV footage while parts of London are being burned down and looted. I think they got it the other way around.
 
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AmricanShamrok
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:34 pm

Curfew and a shoot-to-kill policy, anyone?
 
Quokka
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:42 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 109):
If they really are anarchists they should not complain because without the rule of law you have no rights and that seems to be what they want.

What you might believe to be what they want and what they actually believe may be two different things.

Anarchism, as described by many of its proponents, does not exclude law but laws imposed from above by an unrepresentative state. Associating state with law is a common mistake. Anarchists generally, but not all-inclusively, often associate the state with class society and believe that the function of the state is to protect the interests of a particular class. Looking at countries like Syria one can readily understand that.

Perhaps Mr Cameron could borrow a few of Assad's ideas. Hang on a minute: didn't Britain train the security forces in countries like Bahrain and Libya in crowd control? How daft of me to suggest Britain could learn something from Middle Eastern despots when some British companies supply the means of oppression in the first place.
 
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:13 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 37):
However, watching footage, a lot of people have been caught on camera looting/committing violence who have not covered their faces and not doubt the arrest levels will ramp up once they are looked at.
Quoting par13del (Reply 106):

Quoting GDB (Reply 104):
The Metropolitan force has released what it says will be the "first of many" CCTV images of rioting suspects, while 32 people have appeared in court charged with offences such as burglary and criminal damage during the previous riots.

Would love to know how serious the penalty.
Quoting kaitak (Reply 110):
Unfortunately, it will probably be a custodial sentence of about 6-12 months, and they'll probably be out in three -ready to cause more havoc.

The sentences need to be more severe; something along the lines of the military prison in Colchester, for example; i.e. not just sitting in a cell for 23 hours a day, but tough and tiring physical activity.

This is the problem. The robust policing techniques that politicians of all colours have robustly promised us today will not be so robust if said robust techniques are not robustly followed with robust sentences that robustly re-enforce that such criminal activity will be dealt with robustly with robust techniques by a robust police force.

I suspect that the overwhelming majority of those responsible for the criminality over the past few days will either receive a fine which they cannot or will not pay or get community service which they will not do. Inevitably those who do not pay or do not do their community service will get away with it due to a lack of will and resources to follow these people up. Those that do go to prison I suspect will get short sentences (I expect a lot of people will be outraged when some of these "fugz" get lighter sentences than the idiot who swung from the Cenotaph during the student protests).

The reason why these youths have behaved in such an appalling way is because they keep getting away with antisocial and selfish behaviour. Their parents don't bring them up properly and the police are limited by what they can do.

[Edited 2011-08-09 13:13:29]
 
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OA260
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:27 pm

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 115):
Curfew and a shoot-to-kill policy, anyone?

They tried that in Northern Ireland and it didn't go down well  

Around 70 young people have got together in Enfield and are patrolling the streets to stop anymore thugs rioting and looting. Have to say I support them if they act as a deterrent and conduct themselves properly.
 
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n229nw
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:52 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 105):
Trouble broken out in Manchester and department store apparently on fire !

Yikes. Can't help that a lot of the Manchester police force was just brought down to London!

Quoting falstaff (Reply 109):
I think that most of the non-whites are from 3rd world countries and bring their 3rd world values and culture with them. It isn't a race issue it is the fact that the 3rd world has come and civilized society can't deal with it in its soft ways. These people understand only force and they need it given to them.

I don't think most of these people actually want to be British. They just want free stuff and welfare money. They come to the UK for the welfare.

The rioters need to be shot dead in the streets and anyone found to be non citizens needs to removed from the country.

They want to bring their 3rd world crap to a civilized country... They need to be treated the only they understand and the way they have shown they have deserved to be treated.


I shouldn't really bother engaging with this level of ignorance, but I'll just make one or two points. Given the particular neighborhoods where this first erupted, the involvement of certain long-established London gangs, and the pattern it has taken since, I think you will find that if you really want the demographic breakdown among the rioters, the majority of non-white youths involved in this particular incident are not actually recent immigrants but the children and grandchildren of immigrants who were brought to the UK primarily from the Caribbean to do manual labor during the Windrush migrations. Although they hate the cops and the government, and everything else, most of them do feel English, as much as American street gangs feel "American." Most of them were shaped by the rough estates (housing projects) of London, not by "3rd world crap." In any case, the photos I've seen seem to reflect the neighborhoods. In Tottenham, most of the rioters were black, as is most of the population there. In Croydon, the police CCTV wanted photos show at least half white people, reflecting outer South London more.

By the way, Many of the more recent immigrants, including many recent Muslim immigrants, have actually been the ones out on the streets defending their shops, etc. I'm afraid certain posters who like to pin everything on Muslims and their "inability to integrate" won't be able to do it this time...

Also, I love your solution...shoot them dead, then deport them, back to....England?

Thanks for playing.

[Edited 2011-08-09 14:09:10]
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Geezer
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:59 pm

Bring in the S.A.S.! Knock some heads !
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
Springbok747
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:18 pm

This isn't about poverty, or disenfranchised youth, or anything else. These so called "youths" seem to be a bunch of losers with nothing better to do. They are a generation brought up on shallow materialism, raised with low aspirations of achievement and a warped sense of entitlement, and taught that they can get away with anything.

I was reading on the BBC that most of these "youths" organized this through their mobile phones..So I am pretty sure that none of these scumbags are so poor that they risk dying of hunger. These riots are just opportunistic criminality.

The only way to end it is to shoot some of these idiots..time to bring in the military.
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OA260
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:24 pm

Sky News just interviewed a thug in the city centre and had to apologise for the foul language. He was complaining about the Police ''nicking'' him for small crimes and this is his turn to get them back . He also admitted that he wasn't a law abiding citizen.  
 
Gingersnap
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:27 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 122):
Sky News just interviewed a thug in the city centre and had to apologise for the foul language. He was complaining about the Police ''nicking'' him for small crimes and this is his turn to get them back . He also admitted that he wasn't a law abiding citizen.

I saw that.

Makes me so proud to be British....
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shamrock350
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:28 pm

London is probably safer than ever tonight, police are everywhere and towns across the capital are completely deserted. I walked into central Harrow earlier and saw a few locals or "Harrovians" as we're called chatting to police and just being friendly, it reminded me of the days following the 7/7 attacks where everyone came together and were a little bit nicer to each other. This friendliness happens a lot in smaller communities, in Ireland for example where I come from it's not unusual to get a friendly "hello, how are ya?" from someone on the street but in London it's very rare so it's really nice to see tonight.
 
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OA260
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:39 pm

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 124):
in Ireland for example where I come from it's not unusual to get a friendly "hello, how are ya?" from someone on the street but in London it's very rare so it's really nice to see tonight.

I know what you meant one reason I will never leave Ireland . My community is amazing and my neighbour has a key to my house and I have one to hers. We bring up the bins for each other , if we have been away we even go in and turn on the heating a few hours before either of us return in wintertime. You cant put a value on people like that and all my neighbours are like that. Nothing is too much trouble and we look out for each other.

The focus of trouble tonight seems to be Birmingham and Manchester.

Sikh communities in Southall , West London are guarding the streets tonight. Well done to them !!
 
1stfl94
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:39 pm

Quoting n229nw (Reply 119):
shouldn't really bother engaging with this level of ignorance, but I'll just make one or two points. Given the particular neighborhoods where this first erupted, the involvement of certain long-established London gangs, and the pattern it has taken since, I think you will find that if you really want the demographic breakdown among the rioters, the majority of non-white youths involved in this particular incident are not actually recent immigrants but the children and grandchildren of immigrants who were brought to the UK primarily from the Caribbean to do manual labor during the Windrush migrations. Although they hate the cops and the government, and everything else, most of them do feel English, as much as American street gangs feel "American." Most of them were shaped by the rough estates (housing projects) of London, not by "3rd world crap." In any case, the photos I've seen seem to reflect the neighborhoods. In Tottenham, most of the rioters were black, as is most of the population there. In Croydon, the police CCTV wanted photos show at least half white people, reflecting outer South London more.

By the way, Many of the more recent immigrants, including many recent Muslim immigrants, have actually been the ones out on the streets defending their shops, etc. I'm afraid certain posters who like to pin everything on Muslims and their "inability to integrate" won't be able to do it this time...

Unfortunately a lot of these kids have grown up in pretty rubbishy housing estates where the employment rate is zilch and the crime rate is horrendous. All it takes really is a spark for it kick off. But, where are the parents in all this. Why are they not keeping their kids inside the house, safe and out of trouble!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516

Be interesting what the full result of this is, could make life very hard for the Met when dealing with gangs in the future.

The sad fact is that the biggest losers out of all those will be the hardworking members of the communities those who won't be able to work because their workplace has been destroyed and those who have rebuild businesses and homes.
 
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OA260
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:49 pm

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 126):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516

The thing about this guy that was shot it if he had a hand gun he was up to no good and if he got shot dead by Police then too bad ! You live by the sword you die by the sword. Most normal people in London don't need guns.


Manchester seems to be getting worse and Manchester Police just said the violence tonight is unprecedented
 
IH8BY
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 121):
The only way to end it is to shoot some of these idiots..time to bring in the military.

A method with an excellent track record of success, I'm sure... I would prefer, however, for these people to be subjected to the process of law rather than having our streets as shooting grounds. Detain them, by all means. I'm all for using legal, non-lethal means to do so; it escapes me how gunning down a bunch of teenagers is going to calm things down, unless you shoot and kill them all.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 109):
These people understand only force
Quoting falstaff (Reply 109):
I have been to Bradford and a lot of it looks like a thrid world country.

Would you care to explain what you mean by these statements, and how they are relevant to the discussion in hand?

Quoting falstaff (Reply 109):
Decades violence and troops in Northern Ireland prove that.

The circumstances there were somewhat different. Though if we're going to take the same tack, presumably the fact that a situation vaguely resembling peace only occurred when violent means were renounced is irrelevant in this discussion...

Trust me, I have very little time for this unruly mob. It astonishes me that members of the generation just below me are too apathetic to vote or get involved in social action to improve life in their communities, and yet are ready to take to the streets with iron bars, bricks and fire in order to get their hands on Adidas trainers and iPods. Yet while I think there's no doubt that the behaviour we've seen has been disgusting and outrageous, it's not justification or bleeding-heart-liberalism to ask why on earth this might be happening. Why are people so utterly disconnected from the communities they grew up in that they have no problem creating indiscriminate havoc? Do teenagers really feel they have so little to lose that they're happy going on television and Twitter boasting about the things they've stolen? I'm not going to pretend I can answer these questions.
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par13del
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:22 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 108):
Violent disorder, affray, are generally custodial.

I did some searches to get an idea of the sentences for these.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/violent_disorder/
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/affray/

Quoting kaitak (Reply 110):
Unfortunately, it will probably be a custodial sentence of about 6-12 months, and they'll probably be out in three -ready to cause more havoc.

Will be interesting to see the number of individuals who are repeat offenders, generally custodial sentencing is given because society see's it as giving indiduals especially young or first time offenders a second chance, secondly it is cheaper.

Also interested in the power of CCTV, it is being pushed here and in some parts of the USA as an aid in crime fighting, it does seem to work on the punitive versus preventive side, folks are simply covering up, I'm betting they do not even get rid of the clothes. In watching the latest news on the BBC they are already raiding homes of individuals who are suspected of looting, possible a case of between the rock and the hard place. Yes you need to go after them, yes there will be those whose will use this as another outrage, would be nice if their family members are turning them in.

On another note, it's summer and everyone in London seems to wear outfits with a hood, I know its rains a lot but it really is not that hot, people need more sun.  
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:39 pm

There is a regiment of infantry on 12 hour standby for deployment with Police powers. Just announced.
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:50 pm

Quoting na (Reply 12):
about largescale looting near Clapham Junction in South London - and no police around!

-
When looking up reports a day ago, I was a bit shocked to see how FEW policemen had to try to succeed. One report showed a small troop of policemen having to retreat when getting confronted by a vast number of rioters. I fully understand that those in command were surprised by the developments ....

Quoting OA260 (Reply 18):
Thanks my Sister will be fine we are totally different ends of the political spectrum and she will probably be coming out with some left wing slant on why its happened but she has made her bed etc... Don't get me wrong I love my Sister to bits but she has no sense of reality.

-
What is HER opinion about YOUR views ??

Quoting OA260 (Reply 21):
The lack of education in huge areas of these riot areas are

-
Why is the school system in these areas failing ?

Quoting Quokka (Reply 98):
The Bismarck may have sunk the Hood, and the Prince of Wales has enough problems getting home as it is from what I remember of recent footage. But what happened to Bismarck in the end?

-
well, at the moment of its launch, the ship looked splendid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZOQAPkZAFc&feature=related
 
Maverick623
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:54 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 98):
White man dies in a predominantly white culture is simply not news.

Too bad whites are going to be the minorities in 5-10 years, at least in the US.

And when nobody treats them any differently, you'll see why affirmative action programs and such have been a scam for the last 20 years.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Springbok747
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:58 pm

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 128):
A method with an excellent track record of success, I'm sure... I would prefer, however, for these people to be subjected to the process of law rather than having our streets as shooting grounds. Detain them, by all means. I'm all for using legal, non-lethal means to do so; it escapes me how gunning down a bunch of teenagers is going to calm things down, unless you shoot and kill them all.

Don't kill them..injure them. Use non lethal means..rubber bullets etc. They need to learn that if this behaviour continues, then they are going to get hurt. Just detaining/arresting them won't do shit...because they know they'll be detained for a while before being let off. These riots have gone out of control, whatever the original purpose might have been, we're way past that now, its just about looting and stealing now. And disgusting behaviour like this...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456065

Just look at some of the damage caused by these scumbags..time to use force to stop this nonsense.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14461868

And listen to these two "girls" bragging about how "fun" it is to target rich people..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

[email protected]$%% disgusting.
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babybus
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:08 pm

If you hadn't noticed Tory governments always bring civil unrest, Brixton, miners strike, Poll tax riots to name a few. It's all a laugh really and only to be expected, but that's what the people voted for.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 11):
They should bring in the Army for something as serious as this.

You can't start blasting at people in the street when we're banging on about Libya, Syria, Tunisia, China, Egypt turning guns on its own people.

What we need is dialogue, more jobs and fewer taxes.

[Edited 2011-08-09 16:08:46]
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:15 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 134):
What we need is dialogue, more jobs and fewer taxes.

BS.. what we need is better sentences, Nobody is scared of committing crimes because the punishment is weak. If I read one more apologist piece of crap for these criminals I'm going to explode.

As has already been mentioned the arrested so far have been college graduates, People working in IT, Youth support worker, someone signed up to join the army. The whole blame poverty excuse is so weak I have no idea why certain people keep regurgitating it. Luckily most of the people in England can see this for what it is, Criminals and tramps who just want free stuff. They are causing people to lose their jobs, homes and possibly lives as one man is fighting for his life standing up to some losers setting fire to a bin. Make excuses for this kind of stuff..

These morons are vile.
 
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:28 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 132):
whites are going to be the minorities in 5-10 years, at least in the US.

you might provide figures to prove your point. As I simply do NOT believe in what you are forecasting.
 
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Dano1977
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:39 pm

Do you know what I don't care for reasonable force any more - Take the dogs off the leash and let the Met crack a few skulls like they did in the old days. The sooner we see a looter's face being squashed under a size 12 on the front pages the sooner this is finished.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:49 pm

I wonder what impact this will have on the Olympic Games next year...
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
GDB
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:55 pm

From the BBC, ref what I was saying about Southall before;

0050: Sangita Myska BBC News, Southall About 200 young Sikh men have gathered in a show of force outside two temples in Southall, west London. They were asked to come by temple leaders in response to fears that rioting in nearby Ealing on Monday night may erupt again.
They told me they are here to protect their communities. Police have told temple leaders there is no trouble in the area tonight.
 
ltbewr
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:47 am

To me, these 'riots' and unrest has gone beyond race but now more about class. Let's face it, historically the UK, particularly England, has a bad history of class discrimination. You can be a self made millionaire but not really allowed to be in certain clubs or organizations, have opportunities for many better jobs limited, where you may live, all due to your historic 'class'. It seems that many of the rioters after the initial 1-2 days are white and are taking advantage of the situation to go after the businesses and upper class persons who they see as disrespecting them as well as getting status goods for their own stupid and selfish selves, probably in some cases to sell for cash to buy drugs, alcohol, fancy cell phones, a car, by men on women to get laid, by women to snag a better class man. Then you have the anti-rich anarchists taking advantage of this to 'stick it to the man' but also take some booty for their own selves.

The best answer to deal with this is as seen in some communities, to band together, to patrol peacefully, to help the cops.

RIM, the company that runs the Blackberry network system being abused by some of these anarchists as well as the UK government, has been reluctant to shut down the software that allows the use of these devices as it could hurt those not involved in the criminal acts.
 
Maverick623
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:51 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 136):

you might provide figures to prove your point. As I simply do NOT believe in what you are forecasting.

I was off by 20 years according to Census Bureau forecasts. For the record, I don't give a flying you-know-what about racial composition anywhere. It's merely an academic point with me to throw at the people who will never stop playing the race card.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
skysurfer
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:49 am

It's about time the army were brought in. It's spread from London, to Nottingham, to the Midlands and Manchester. Where does it stop? How much longer are the police (with their limited abilities) going to be able to do anything remotely effective?
The time for drastic action is here: Get the army on the streets, get the rubber bullets, tear gas and tanks rolling and get these stupid, dumb 'i have no idea why i'm on the streets smashing and stealing things' people in a place where they have many, many years to think about what they've done.
Strong words? Yes. Needed? Yes. Deport anyone that isn't a citizen, jail anyone who is and stop the politically correct dance that the UK is walking.
Every single person on the streets who is taking part is guilty: this has gone beyond the original problem and is now a free for all. It's time to grow a set of balls and take this to the next level.
Btw, I completely understand the original reason in London for this beginning, but it's moved beyond that very quickly and it's showing no signs of stopping. This is now wanton destruction and mayhem for thrills, shits and giggles and it's gotta be dealt with swiftly and harshly without a politician blowing off hot air to deter these idiots.

Not so happy cheers

Stu
In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
 
mdsh00
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:00 am

Quoting Babybus (Reply 134):
You can't start blasting at people in the street when we're banging on about Libya, Syria, Tunisia, China, Egypt turning guns on its own people.

The difference here is that the riots on the UK are perpetrated by hooligans looking for an opportunity to break and steal shit rather than peacefully protesting an oppressive regime (if that's what this is all really about). This is akin to stupid sports fans here in the US (and Vancouver for that matter) that go riot in the streets because of a single game.

For the past three days the Met has shown too much restraint and given the looters the upper hand. Where are the water cannons, tear gas, and bean bags.

Does the Met have any of these in their possession like what the Pittsburgh PD used against the Black Bloc assholes?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSMyY3_dmrM&feature=related
 
baroque
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:38 am

For a more considered treatment of causes and solutions try
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/
Bea Campbell on the Riots in the UK

London riots

listen | download (9.9MB)

In a press conference today British prime minister David Cameron described the three days of rioting in London and other major English cities as 'criminality pure and simple'. He says the police presence on the streets will be increased to 16,000 and that parliament will be recalled this week.

No the 9.9 MB is not Cameron D, but Campbell B! A much more nuanced treatment with comment on public order policing.
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:45 am

Burn it down. I love a good riot.  

Police have no right to shoot to kill unless there is a life immediately threatened.

And to the people suggesting that police simply shoot these people...what are you really going to do? Shoot and kill thousands of protesters? Over what? Some broken stores and burned buildings. Yes those stores and buildings are the physical manifestations of persons' lives. But, IMO...actual life is much more important than that.

And quite succinctly and truthfully... This is what happens in a society (present day UK) where you have a large class of people who are under-employed, unemployed, disenfranchised, and just don't give a flying f***.

David Cameron obviously didn't give a flying f*** either about this class...austerity measures and deep cuts to social programs all around.

But the UK is in a pretty tough social and financial position regardless.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 97):

What I don't understand about all this is one issue we have in The States: When a person of color or multi-cultural person is killed by police, there are protests. No matter what their criminal past. "S/He was a good person!" and "How can such force be used on such a good person" and so forth. But, when a caucasian person is killed by police, you could hear a pin drop. Aren't we a nation of "judge not on the color of skin, but content of charicter"???

Quite obviously to anyone schooled in this country, that has to do with the abominable history of racial, color, and ethnic discrimination and de facto and de jure violence against non-Caucosoid persons in the United States.

What I don't understand is why some white persons are so confused about this issue in the first place. The roots and causes of these modern day issues are taught in American secondary schools.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys. Citizenship/Residence::: Washington DC, US; Vaud, CH; Providenciales, TCI (hence my avi)
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:46 am

Quoting skysurfer (Reply 142):
Btw, I completely understand the original reason in London for this beginning,

I dont, There was an armed known criminal on our streets that the police were going to apprehend and he ended up dead. I couldnt give a crap. Im sick of this gang crap and he shouldnt have been armed, Only one reason for a man like him to be armed. I have no sympathy whatsoever.

Ironicly during the riots a black man was murdered by black gang in croydon, I notice no protests, No outcry from these hypocritical community leaders? It's ok for them to kill each other but the police shooting an armed criminal is oh so upsetting why?

People like to ignore the blatant hypocrisy and let this scum get away with it, thats why we have gotten to this situation already. If we dont start taking a tougher stance against criminals this will blow even further out of control.
 
Springbok747
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:29 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 145):
Shoot and kill thousands of protesters? Over what? Some broken stores and burned buildings. Yes those stores and buildings are the physical manifestations of persons' lives. But, IMO...actual life is much more important than that.

Jeebus..didn't you read some of the earlier posts here? No one is suggesting the cops/military KILL these idiots..rather, use non-lethal means, like rubber bullets, to inflict some pain on these scumbags. They need to learn that if they're acting like this, then they will get hurt. Arresting/detaining them won't do a thing. These riots have become a free-for-all, and whatever the original intentions might have been, we're way way past that now..its now all about stealing, mugging and destruction of property, which needs to be met with force to be stopped.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:42 am

Quoting n229nw (Reply 88):
The primary factor here is the power of organized crime to fulfill some base human impulses. Most of all, this is a chance for people who have never felt any sense of power in their lives to feel like big men who are in control of everything, even of the police. It is a massive adrenaline and testosterone rush for these people, and because they don't work, don't have nice places to live anyway, they don't care about other people's dwellings and livelihoods. Back when the East End of London was mostly all white working class, and crime there was much worse than it is now, if they had blackberries, the same things could very easily have happened.

Don´t interpret too much reason into the motivation of the rioters. I have witnessed the West Berlin riots of the 1980s firsthand (I was living in the district just next door) and I knew several participants from university (mainly anarchist punk rockers). If you look at the main age group of rioters in various riots all over the world you´ll see that it is mostly young men between 15 and mid 20s, who are rioting, racev and education are less important. It is a testosterone driven thing, first create an "us" versus "them" situation, often using real grievances (in Berlin e.g. it was the lack of affordable accomodation due to speculation on the real estate market, which drove many landlords to demolish older, cheap rent, apartment blocks to build office buildings or blocks of expensive luxury apartments instead. Young people, who couldn´t find an affordable flat would simply occupy a derilict building scheduled for demolition and renovate it for themselves. Most of them were on the political extreme left and since the law and state for them represented the landlords, they were anti-police as well). After some pitched battles they tried to create no-go areas for the police in their neighbourhoods, which obviously attracted criminals as well.
When a battle between police and squatters happened, outsiders (supposedly normal people) would join in and take advantage of the chaos by looting shops. I have seen ordinary family fathers driving up to a supermarket being looted and filling up their cars with "free" groceries.

Then you have people from outside coming to the place where rioting takes place for some "fun". In Berlin we joked about the "schäbische Landjugend" (the rural youth for conservative Suabia in southern Germany), who would drive up to Berlin for anticipated riots (e.g. on May 1st) and I´ve seen leaflets advising them where to park their cars in better neighbourhoods, so that they wouldn´t be damaged.

It is just the same as football hooligans. The only thing is that the anarchist punks with higher level education can formulate their "reasonings" in nicer words than some dimwit who has left highschool at the age of 16.

On the other hand at this time Berlin´s riot police was mostly made up from young police recruits in a similar age range.
They were housed in barracks and were just equally spoiling for a fight to "show it to the unwashed punks". Interestingly many of these anarchists later, after they graduated from university, became quite authoritarian corporate men.

If you heard their stories afterwards (I knew anarchists from university and policemen due to my service in the civil defense), their stories sounded just the same, the same bragging about how they showed it to the respective "other side".

It looks now that girls and young women have joined up as well to show that they are just as "tough" as the guys.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 93):
But maybe time for the hood to join the burqa in being banned on security grounds?

In Germany covering your face during a demonstration is a criminal offense and reason for arrest (this law was based on experiences with rioters covering their faces to preent recognition). It is classified just as arming yourself passively (e.g. by wearing a motorcycle helmet or gasmask. It means that you came prepared not for a peaceful protest, but for a fight).

Jan
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Pellegrine
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RE: What's With The Ongoing Rioting In London?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:43 am

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 146):
I dont, There was an armed known criminal on our streets that the police were going to apprehend and he ended up dead. I couldnt give a crap. Im sick of this gang crap and he shouldnt have been armed, Only one reason for a man like him to be armed. I have no sympathy whatsoever.
Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 147):
Jeebus..didn't you read some of the earlier posts here? No one is suggesting the cops/military KILL these idiots..rather, use non-lethal means, like rubber bullets, to inflict some pain on these scumbags. They need to learn that if they're acting like this, then they will get hurt. Arresting/detaining them won't do a thing. These riots have become a free-for-all, and whatever the original intentions might have been, we're way way past that now..its now all about stealing, mugging and destruction of property, which needs to be met with force to be stopped.

These things should be stopped. But people are so short sighted. The UK has had these type of problems brewing for at least the past two decades. These type of things become worse with a faltering economy. Look at the big picture. The UK needs to address their issues with the working and underclass and also sovereign macroeconomic vulnerability. You can call these rioters any negative term you want, but if you live in the same community and this happens...see? Not so good.

Furthermore, anyone who has studied psychology would know that when people are royally pissed off, they won't learn from being hurt or 'detained'. They'll only get more pissed at those who hurt or 'detained' them. When people are in desperate situations they don't learn or adapt to controlling behaviors in the longer term. What I am saying is, if you are not desperate yourself, you cannot enter the mind of a desperate individual...there is a basal, biological separation. Also, rubber bullets can be very dangerous.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 146):
Ironicly during the riots a black man was murdered by black gang in croydon, I notice no protests, No outcry from these hypocritical community leaders? It's ok for them to kill each other but the police shooting an armed criminal is oh so upsetting why?

People like to ignore the blatant hypocrisy and let this scum get away with it, thats why we have gotten to this situation already. If we dont start taking a tougher stance against criminals this will blow even further out of control.

People should understand that historical and biological circumstances influence people to act along racial/color/ethnic/cultural lines. Whether you agree with it is besides the point. I too think it is dumb many times. But people would rather choose to forget than face problems like this, because it is do difficult, uncomfortable, and personal. And this is what you get. Reality is.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys. Citizenship/Residence::: Washington DC, US; Vaud, CH; Providenciales, TCI (hence my avi)

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