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af773atmsp
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Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:41 am

My friend and I we're discussing what kind of car I should get, and I wanted a mini SUV or minivan because I believe they drive better in the snow than sedans. My friend says his Honda Civic is better in the snow than his Oldsmobile Silhouette, which is strange because my parent's Dodge Caravan is much better driving in snowy conditions than my sister's Nissan Maxima. So are most sedans good driving in snowy conditions even if they don't have tires specially built for the snow?
 
BMI727
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:18 am

Quoting af773atmsp (Thread starter):
So are most sedans good driving in snowy conditions even if they don't have tires specially built for the snow?

Yes. Get all wheel drive though, and it should do as well as any SUV. The SUV (or truck) can probably deal with deeper snow (if it is that deep though you probably shouldn't be out in anything) and can be useful for getting other vehicles unstuck. On the other hand, SUVs are more top heavy and more likely to roll over in an accident, though modern stability control mitigates this somewhat, but physics still rules and will in all likelihood pay a significant fuel burn penalty in all conditions.

It's hard to give a more detailed judgment without talking specific models, but in general the AWD car is probably a better bet.
 
flymia
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:19 am

I think it is mainly about the tires and is the car front wheel, rear wheel or four wheel drive. Four wheel drive will handle the best. More SUVs tend to be four wheel drive however these days many come without it standard especially those mini suvs. Front wheel drive handles better then rear wheel drive in the snow and the snow only. Those are the main factors.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:45 am

So long as you have proper winter tyres, not the all season rubbish people foolishly buy, FWD is damn near as good as AWD in the snow, AWD has an advantage going uphill and that's about it, RWD and snowy conditions suck, it really doesn't matter how good your winter tyres are. The best car I've ever driven in winter conditions is my wifes Volvo V70.
 
Mir
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:46 am

I shouldn't think a minivan would do any better than a sedan in snow - probably worse due to the extra weight. As far as SUV vs. sedan goes, it really depends. I will say that my AWD wagon does very well in snow so long as the snow doesn't get too deep - the real advantage of an SUV is extra ground clearance.

-Mir
 
lowrider
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:29 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
As far as SUV vs. sedan goes, it really depends. I will say that my AWD wagon does very well in snow so long as the snow doesn't get too deep - the real advantage of an SUV is extra ground clearance.

I think this is the biggest advantage. I own both a midsize sedan and a 4WD vehicle. The sedan does relatively fine in a few inches of snow or on cleared roads, however, if I need to get somewhere before the plows have been out, I take the 4WD. FWD works great unless snow starts to build up under the front end.
 
swissy
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:46 pm

permanent/full time AWD out perform any FWD/RWD vehicles any given time... ground clearance plays a roll, sedan versus SUV/van... if snow is deep. Agree with the weight, the higher the weight the more energy will be released if you are loosing control... i guess what is most important: did the driver leave his brain at home or not...

Cheerios,
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:15 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
On the other hand, SUVs are more top heavy and more likely to roll over in an accident, though modern stability control mitigates this somewhat, but physics still rules and will in all likelihood pay a significant fuel burn penalty in all conditions.

SUVs have also become a bit wider and lower compared to SUVs in the 90s when roll-over issues with the Ford Explorer and others were headline news.

Quoting af773atmsp (Thread starter):
So are most sedans good driving in snowy conditions even if they don't have tires specially built for the snow?

I drive a Honda Accord with all-season tires and don't have too many problems with the winters in upstate NY. A lot of it just depends on the quality of the road clearing in your location. You also have to know your limits. In some conditions, it doesn't matter what tires you have, what AWD system you've got, or how diligent the plows are, you just shouldn't be on the road.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:20 pm

it really depends on if you buy a city dweller show off SUV or a real offroad truck (e.g. Jeep Wrangler, Landrover Defender, older Rangerovers, Lada Niva, Suzuki Samurai, older Toyota Landcruisers, Nissan Patrol, GAZ 69, Unimog, Mercedes G-Wagon etc.).
These vehicles all have 4-wheel drive (some, like the Defender, permanent).
In my place it snows a lot during winter (so bad that often the snow is too much for the snow ploughs and the road crews have to resort to giant snowblowers, which cut through the snow like a milling machine). I´m driving a Defender and before this, a Suzuki Samurai and had no problems, even with deep snowdrifts.,
The only time I got stuck was when I accidentally drove into a snowdrift made out of loose snow about a meter deep when I was crossing an open field. The truck sank in up to the body and it took me two hours of shoveling with an army entrenching tool to get it out again.
I found out that mud tyres (the really coarse ones like the ones used on farm tractors) work very well on pure snow, even if it is deep, but are pretty dangerous on roads if there is ice present.

On the other hand these specialised offroad vehicles are not as comfortable as cars designed for road use, as my girlfriend will happily confirm.

Jan
 
yfbflyer
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:16 pm

Any time I drive through the mountain passes in the winter I see far more SUVs in the ditch than cars.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:37 pm

Quoting yfbflyer (Reply 9):
Any time I drive through the mountain passes in the winter I see far more SUVs in the ditch than cars.

Sure, because people don´t know how to drive them.
First, they might have a better traction on accelerating than 2-wheel drive cars, but for braking the same laws apply. All cars have brakes working on all four wheels. There is no better brake performance for 4-wheel drive cars than for 2-wheel drive ones.

Secondly, true offroad vehicles with a good ground clearance have a high centre of gravity. You can´t drive them like a racing car, they will topple over. You´ll have to drive them like a heavy lorry and go slow when entering curves.

Then many (inexperienced in offroad driving) people think that just because they have a SUV the laws of physics don´t apply and they are invincible.

Jan
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:51 pm

Over the passed 25 years, I've owned and driven in the snow:

-a Honda Accord (FWD)
-a Jeep Cherokee (4WD)
-a Ford Explorer (automatic 4WD)
-a Chrysler Sebring (convertible & sedan FWD)
-a Ford Flex (FWD)

It is my considered iopinion, that, so long as the vehicle has the clearance and your tires are good, it is the driver's ability and confidence that define whether he should be driving in the snow. A 4WD vehicle will still handle like crap in the snow if the driver does not know how to drive in the snow.

Now, that having been said, my Explorer did the best in the snow, though the Flex, with it's Traction Control does fairly well, though it suffers from ground clearance.
 
L-188
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:17 pm

I used to have a chevy cavalier and ended up getting a pick-up truck later on. The cavilier handled cleared roads well but I did have to replace a radiator motor once because it got packed with snow and burned out. Ground clearance was an issue because we do get these berms that will form in the road and if the conditions are right they will turn icy. I lost this two inch strip of plastic that formed an airdam under the car to one.

I don't have that sort of problem with the truck, but I do feel the need to put about 300 lbs of sand in the bed over the winter to keep it on the ground.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 7):
A lot of it just depends on the quality of the road clearing in your location.

Check, As I said in our area we can get these ridges that form down the middle of the road and turn to ice

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
The truck sank in up to the body and it took me two hours of shoveling with an army entrenching tool to get it out again.

Ouch. I carry a backpackers shovel I got from REI for that job. It had a snowblade and will move snow much more effectively
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:52 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
The truck sank in up to the body and it took me two hours of shoveling with an army entrenching tool to get it out again.

Ouch. I carry a backpackers shovel I got from REI for that job. It had a snowblade and will move snow much more effectively

It was a hiddeen dip, which had filled up with snow, and it was only about 4 yards away from the road I wanted to get onto (I was on my way home from work and the road to my village was blocked because an articulated truck (Semi for you Americans) had jackknived and got itself stuck. I decided to cut across a field to get on another road to get home instead of waiting for the tow truck and salvage crew to get the truck moving.
Fortunately I had the entrenching tool in my Landrover (which is more intended for what the British Army call "Shovel patrols" while camping   ). I´m actually thinking of getting a British Army GS shovel. They were very popular with the WW2 Tommies because their issue entrenching tool, a small mattock, sucked if they had to dig in quickly and were still short enough to be stuck into the webbing without becoming a serious burden while being big enough for some serious slit trench digging. AFAIK they are still issued (I have a dated WW2 one in my collection, but I wouldn´t want to use it for every day use).


Jan

[Edited 2011-08-14 09:15:02]
 
photopilot
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:07 pm

Quoting yfbflyer (Reply 9):
Any time I drive through the mountain passes in the winter I see far more SUVs in the ditch than cars.
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
Sure, because people don´t know how to drive them.
First, they might have a better traction on accelerating than 2-wheel drive cars, but for braking the same laws apply. All cars have brakes working on all four wheels. There is no better brake performance for 4-wheel drive cars than for 2-wheel drive ones.

Good answer but also add that any SUV will simply weigh more than any sedan. Now, that weight translates into more mass and velocity in any given direction. You're correct that SUV's get going easier, but all vehicles have 4-Wheel Brakes so SUV's don't stop any better. But the extra mass makes for more momentum and therefore they actually stop LESS WELL than a car. Roll a beach-ball down the floor and roll a 10-pin bowling ball down the floor. Which one takes more effort to stop?

Want to know what the definition of SUV and 4-wheel drive is? "They Allow You to get STUCK Farther from Help!"

When it really gets right down to it, I'll take two-wheel drive and great winter specific tires over 4-wheel drive and all-season compromise tires. Oh, and I love RWD in snow. Maybe that's because I used to rally drive and it's fun to steer with your right foot!!!  
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:21 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 14):
Good answer but also add that any SUV will simply weigh more than any sedan. Now, that weight translates into more mass and velocity in any given direction. You're correct that SUV's get going easier, but all vehicles have 4-Wheel Brakes so SUV's don't stop any better. But the extra mass makes for more momentum and therefore they actually stop LESS WELL than a car. Roll a beach-ball down the floor and roll a 10-pin bowling ball down the floor. Which one takes more effort to stop?

On the other hand, the heavier the vehicle is, the stronger the brakes have to be dimensioned by law. There exists a minimum braking performance, irrespective how heavy the vehicle is.

In any case, and I say it again, you´ll have to drive a heavy 4 x 4 truck as if you were driving a heavy good transport truck. This means that you´ll have to SLOW DOWN, especially in curves and on slippery roads.
A good offroad 4 x4 with the proper tyres can CRAWL you through almost anything, but it hasn´t been built for racing.
Even the drive train and transmission have been built for torque, not for speed.

Jan
 
StuckInCA
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:49 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 3):
So long as you have proper winter tyres, not the all season rubbish people foolishly buy

I really think it depends where you live as to whether or not your comment makes sense. Here in western Washington at about 1000' elevation, we get snow several times a year (usually) but it ususally is gone within 24 hours. Occassionally it lasts about a week. That said, move a few miles from here (less elevation) and it rarely sticks around more than a day.

Around here, I think that good all season tires are great. Sure, winter tires would be nice, but there are typically only a few days that it matters. It's tough to justify the investment in a set of winter tires for the handful of days spread over the handful of months that it would matter.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:08 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 16):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 3):
So long as you have proper winter tyres, not the all season rubbish people foolishly buy

I really think it depends where you live as to whether or not your comment makes sense. Here in western Washington at about 1000' elevation, we get snow several times a year (usually) but it ususally is gone within 24 hours. Occassionally it lasts about a week. That said, move a few miles from here (less elevation) and it rarely sticks around more than a day.

KiwiRob lives in Norway, where they get more than their fair share of snow.

Jan
 
MD-90
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:42 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
I shouldn't think a minivan would do any better than a sedan in snow - probably worse due to the extra weight.

Our Grand Caravan (with all seasons) went pretty well in the snow. Minivans have the advantage of having more weight over the front axle, since they typically have terribly unbalanced weight distribution fore and aft.

As for a Civic, I have one word for you: snowplow.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:53 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
They were very popular with the WW2 Tommies because their issue entrenching tool

Nice photo, just not a Tommie, this chap is Canadian.
 
photopilot
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:18 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 15):
On the other hand, the heavier the vehicle is, the stronger the brakes have to be dimensioned by law. There exists a minimum braking performance, irrespective how heavy the vehicle is.

Stronger brakes as dimensioned by law has absolutely nothing at all to do with this.

Let's assume two vehicles. One 4x4 and one car (FWD or RWD, doesn't matter). Let's also assume that they are fitted with identical tires driving side by side at the same speed on identical road conditions.

As the coefficient of friction is identical between the two, simple physics says that the heavier vehicle will take longer to bring it's mass to a stop than the lighter vehicle.
Now, you could argue that the 4x4 likely has larger tires than the sedan, but as it's carrying more weight spread out over a larger contact patch, the likely coefficient of friction would be pretty much the same.

The ONLY thing that stops a vehicle of any type is where the rubber meets the road.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:30 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 19):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
They were very popular with the WW2 Tommies because their issue entrenching tool

Nice photo, just not a Tommie, this chap is Canadian.

Yes, the shovels were popular with the Canadians as well (You can see the horizon blue badge of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division above his Lance Corporal stripes). it has been taken post summer 1944, as can be seen by the small case of the Respirator-Light Mk.2 and by the fact that he carries a No.4 rifle (issued starting 1943). He is still wearing the oldstyle Mk 2 helmet, not yet the Mk 3 "Turtle" helmet, which was being issued just before the invasion and used a lot by the British 3rd infantry division. If the picture was in colour, you could most likely see the darker green shade of the Canadian version of the 1937 Pattern battledress (not as brown as the British one), which also was made in a better quality. If you could see the front you could also see the typical hat-shaped metal buttons used by the Canadians instead of the plastic ones used by the British.
The webbing he wears is a British pattern P37 OR kit.
Don´t forget about the US made "War Aid" BD uniforms, which roughly followed the British P37 and later P41 austerity pattern, but differed in details. These were mostly issued as replacement to British and Commonwealth soldiers attached to the american supply line (e.g. in italy).
If you want I can get WAY more into detail. I own a collection of British and Canadian WW2 equipment and uniforms.
But for the average A.netter this is a typical British style WW2 soldier.

Jan

[Edited 2011-08-14 15:18:30]
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:46 pm

Once upon a time, I owned a Mercury Sable. It did alright in the snow. My next vehicle was a Mazda Tribute. In roughly the same type of snow conditions, it handled a lot better.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
so long as the vehicle has the clearance and your tires are good, it is the driver's ability and confidence that define whether he should be driving in the snow.

  
 
comorin
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:04 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 20):
As the coefficient of friction is identical between the two, simple physics says that the heavier vehicle will take longer to bring it's mass to a stop than the lighter vehicle.

Are you sure? For a given coefficient of friction, deceleration from friction (lateral force) is proportional to weight (normal force), which cancels out the increased inertia. Slip starts when the lateral force overcomes static friction, so a heavier axle means more grip for a given tire surface area.

Please feel free to correct.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:13 pm

I've never owned an AWD, but I'm sure they are much better getting you going in snowy conditions. But in all honestly, as long as you have good winter tires on (and that includeds AWD), a FWD is more than sufficient for most North American winter highway conditions as long as the roads are kept in a reasonable state.

Having said that, I do find that some FWD cars do handle better in winter road conditions than others, for example my 07 City Golf and City Jetta seem to have a bit firmer stance as opposed to my 95 Civic and 98 Accord ... I would assume it has something to do with the vehicles weight distribution.

Regardless of whatever vehicle you choose ... winter tires are extremely important, not only for the added traction and softer rubber, but some roads (many in our area) require mandatory winter tires or chains ... if you've just got all seasons or summers on and have an accident, have fun with the insurance company and possibly the police.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:16 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 23):
Quoting photopilot (Reply 20):
As the coefficient of friction is identical between the two, simple physics says that the heavier vehicle will take longer to bring it's mass to a stop than the lighter vehicle.

Are you sure? For a given coefficient of friction, deceleration from friction (lateral force) is proportional to weight (normal force), which cancels out the increased inertia. Slip starts when the lateral force overcomes static friction, so a heavier axle means more grip for a given tire surface area.

Please feel free to correct.

Not just this, you´ll also want to have the energy change between kinetic energy and heat to happen between the brake pads and the brake disk / drum, not between the tyre and the road. Normally you´ll have your highest braking action when the wheels just turn, not when they are blocked (also to keep the vehicle under control). This is why anti-skid systems have been invented. On old vehicles like mine without electronics, you´ll have to use intermittent braking.
Therefore truck brakes are dimensioned bigger, with a higher energy transfer capability, than ordinary car brakes.

Jan
 
Geezer
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:34 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21):
Yes, the shovels were popular with the Canadians as well (You can see the horizon blue badge of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division above his Lance Corporal stripes). it has been taken post summer 1944, as can be seen by the small case of the Respirator-Light Mk.2 and by the fact that he carries a No.4 rifle (issued starting 1943). He is still wearing the oldstyle Mk 2 helmet, not yet the Mk 3 "Turtle" helmet, which was being issued just before the invasion and used a lot by the British 3rd infantry division. If the picture was in colour, you could most likely see the darker green shade of the Canadian version of the 1937 Pattern battledress (not as brown as the British one), which also was made in a better quality. If you could see the front you could also see the typical hat-shaped metal buttons used by the Canadians instead of the plastic ones used by the British.
The webbing he wears is a British pattern P37 OR kit.
Don´t forget about the US made "War Aid" BD uniforms, which roughly followed the British P37 and later P41 austerity pattern, but differed in details. These were mostly issued as replacement to British and Commonwealth soldiers attached to the american supply line (e.g. in italy).
If you want I can get WAY more into detail. I own a collection of British and Canadian WW2 equipment and uniforms.
But for the average A.netter this is a typical British style WW2 soldier.

Jan

Jan;
I suppose I'm a bit "off topic" here, but..........if you ever get to the U.S., you definitely need to check out the U.S.A.F. Museum in Dayton, Ohio; they have a ton of stuff exactly like you're talking about, from WW2, much of it on mannequins.

Charley
 
baroque
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:40 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 14):
Want to know what the definition of SUV and 4-wheel drive is? "They Allow You to get STUCK Farther from Help!"

Ah that is so correct if you need to go "off road" in the E Australian highlands. The four wheel drive allowed you to get 200 m further into the bog before you realised there was no way through. I got bogged more times in an office Land Rover than I ever did in my own cars.

With snow, I still have a vivid memory of trying to get up a hill in moderate snow in NW Scotland in March 1970 in a rear wheel drive Austin Westminster - just of a tonne so plenty of weight on the rear wheels. I had come to a graceful halt about 200 m from the top of the hill and was busy (apparently like Jan) digging clear road behind my rear wheels for another attempt on the summit. Part way through, a Morris 1100 - front wheel drive just like the one I had been driving for 6 years in Aus - stopped on the snow to see if I needed help. I said "No, I will be OK". And still on the same snow that had stopped me, he was able to start off up the hill and breeze over the top.

One advantage of the old Mini/1100 transverse engine design was that on starting, the torque reaction gave you added traction. Certainly showed on that Morris 1100 that day. With the Westminster, all the torque reaction did was lighten one wheel so it skidded while the other one still had traction.
 
Arrow
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:16 am

Quoting yfbflyer (Reply 9):
Any time I drive through the mountain passes in the winter I see far more SUVs in the ditch than cars.

Most likely because they don't have snow tires on. The fools think because they have 4WD they can get through anything, and they forget that the 4WD does nothing for their ability to stop or hold a corner. That's where the snow tires come in.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:15 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 28):
Most likely because they don't have snow tires on. The fools think because they have 4WD they can get through anything, and they forget that the 4WD does nothing for their ability to stop or hold a corner. That's where the snow tires come in.

Too many people think that a 4WD vehicle suspends the laws of physics around their vehicle. Driving well in snow requires experience, practice and patience.

I remember going to empty or near empty parking lots during the first snow of the season and slowly regaining the skills I lost during the summer. Don't get to that much anymore, but I still take it easy when adjusting to the different conditions.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:30 am

Quoting Geezer (Reply 26):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21):
Yes, the shovels were popular with the Canadians as well (You can see the horizon blue badge of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division above his Lance Corporal stripes). it has been taken post summer 1944, as can be seen by the small case of the Respirator-Light Mk.2 and by the fact that he carries a No.4 rifle (issued starting 1943). He is still wearing the oldstyle Mk 2 helmet, not yet the Mk 3 "Turtle" helmet, which was being issued just before the invasion and used a lot by the British 3rd infantry division. If the picture was in colour, you could most likely see the darker green shade of the Canadian version of the 1937 Pattern battledress (not as brown as the British one), which also was made in a better quality. If you could see the front you could also see the typical hat-shaped metal buttons used by the Canadians instead of the plastic ones used by the British.
The webbing he wears is a British pattern P37 OR kit.
Don´t forget about the US made "War Aid" BD uniforms, which roughly followed the British P37 and later P41 austerity pattern, but differed in details. These were mostly issued as replacement to British and Commonwealth soldiers attached to the american supply line (e.g. in italy).
If you want I can get WAY more into detail. I own a collection of British and Canadian WW2 equipment and uniforms.
But for the average A.netter this is a typical British style WW2 soldier.

Jan

Jan;
I suppose I'm a bit "off topic" here, but..........if you ever get to the U.S., you definitely need to check out the U.S.A.F. Museum in Dayton, Ohio; they have a ton of stuff exactly like you're talking about, from WW2, much of it on mannequins.

Charley

Thanks for tip. The USAF museum is definitely on my list to visit should I ever end up in the region.
BTW, looking at the picture again, I noticed that the soldier is wearing Canadian "Assault boots", which were issued to some Canadian units just prior to the Normandie invasion, instead of the more common British style "Ammo" boots and gaiters.

Jan
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:31 pm

Quoting af773atmsp (Thread starter):
My friend and I we're discussing what kind of car I should get, and I wanted a mini SUV or minivan because I believe they drive better in the snow than sedans. My friend says his Honda Civic is better in the snow than his Oldsmobile Silhouette, which is strange because my parent's Dodge Caravan is much better driving in snowy conditions than my sister's Nissan Maxima. So are most sedans good driving in snowy conditions even if they don't have tires specially built for the snow?

I don't know where you live, but if you have 2-3 months of cold weather (meaning temperatures regularly below freezing, even if only at night) I would seriously consider getting proper winter tires. Install them around the end of November and then put your summer tires back on maybe in late March. The first time you experience the difference in traction and braking with winter tires vs summer or so-called "all-seasons", you'll be amazed.

Probably the finest all-round vehicle in the world for snow and ice, in my opinion, is the Subaru Outback. AWD, decent clearance without being silly, large enough without being silly.

The problem with SUVs in the winter are:

They are heavy. The heavier you are the harder it is to overcome the physics involved in stopping or turning on slick roads (especially downhill).

They are top-heavy. I've seen SUVs flip over on their roof after clipping a curb in icy conditions

They tend to have big tires that would be expensive to kit with proper winter tires. They seem to have all-seasons or mud-tires all year round.

And finally most SUVs have 4WD systems designed more for mud, or simply getting you out of a ditch, than actual driving in snow. Full-time AWD systems designed for snow and ice are expensive to develop. Audi and Subaru are very good at it. I've never tried the Volvo system but considering where they come from, I suppose they are probably pretty good at it. The Chevy and Ford systems suck - I can tell you that first-hand.

Driving in snow and ice is a matter of physics. Conservation of momentum, and the forces involved in redirecting your momentum, is everything. I find it fun.
 
swissy
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:12 pm

RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:49 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
Probably the finest all-round vehicle in the world for snow and ice, in my opinion, is the Subaru Outback. AWD, decent clearance without being silly, large enough without being silly.

Agree these Subis are fantastic, one of our current cars is a Tribeca, wife drove Jeeps before and today she cannot believe how much better the Subi works in these kind of conditions...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
I've never tried the Volvo system but considering where they come from, I suppose they are probably pretty good at it. The Chevy and Ford systems suck - I can tell you that first-hand.

3 years ago when we were shopping around to replace the Liberty for an 7 passenger CUV, we stopped at our local Volvo dealer, snow and icy road conditions... was not impressed with the Volvo 4x4 system...similar to what Ford used (3-4 years ago), so the Subi dealer was next on our list, would have stopped after to try out an MDX but never got that far because the wife just fell in love with the Tribeca, 60k later no issues with the car, no spinning sliding... just rock solid performance in any weather conditions and yes our cars all have supper duper winter tires on in the winter season 

cheerios,
 
Geezer
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:37 am

RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:11 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 28):
The fools think because they have 4WD they can get through anything, and they forget that the 4WD does nothing for their ability to stop or hold a corner. That's where the snow tires come in.

Exactly correct, Mr. Arrow

[quote=fr8mech,reply=29]Too many people think that a 4WD vehicle suspends the laws of physics around their vehicle. Driving well in snow requires experience, practice and patience.

Exactly what I was talking about in my reply. I'm very surprised that no one has mentioned this; the very term "4 wheel drive" is very misleading, to say the least. Almost every car maker has a different "version" of what they call 4 wheel drive, and very few ( if any ) of them actually apply power to all four wheels. As everyone knows, when a vehicle makes a 90 degree turn, the wheels on the outside of the turn must travel much farther than the inner wheels; so cars all must have a differential on the drive axle; so............when one side get more traction, all the power is applied to that side, and the other side remains motionless; at this point, you have "1 wheel drive" ! Some 4WD "schemes" get around this, and some do not. If you have very "deep pockets", you can buy after market drive axles for just about any vehicle, but then you increase the "complexity", etc. etc. So.........it all gets back to "driver skill", driver knowledge, and driver common sense.

I spent nearly 3 years studying 4WD P/U trucks before I bought my Dodge Ram; I had every intention of getting a "4WD'; problem was, I NEEDED a "dually", most of the time, and a 4WD 1/10 of 1% of the time; so I bought a 2WD; after 10 yrs, and 100,000 miles, I now realize I made the right decision. ( for MY NEEDS ) Others needs may be entirely different.

At the end of the day, if you don't have a very clear idea of what you need a vehicle for, your chances of buying the "right" vehicle are "slim to none"! ( IMHO that is )

Charley
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7944
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:30 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
I remember going to empty or near empty parking lots during the first snow of the season and slowly regaining the skills I lost during the summer. Don't get to that much anymore, but I still take it easy when adjusting to the different conditions.

Just make sure you don't do that up here in BC ... this past winter, 3 people got their vehicles impounded for 7 days and were fined for driving without "undue care and attention", granted they threw in a couple of drifts here and there, but thats good practice to try and control your car in one.
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:32 pm

Quoting swissy (Reply 32):
Agree these Subis are fantastic, one of our current cars is a Tribeca, wife drove Jeeps before and today she cannot believe how much better the Subi works in these kind of conditions...

I've had good experiences with Subarus, but I'm also very happy with my Suzuki SX4 with AWD. It's got a nice little feature that lets you lock all 4 (50% torque front and back) to get out of deep snow if necessary. It cuts out after 60 kmh and reverts to AWD -- but I've needed it a couple of times, and it gives you 4WD for those rare occasions when you need it. I also like my old suzuki sidekick 4wd -- it got up a few snowy logging roads that its bigger brothers couldn't handle.

Bottom line -- once you've got the right tires on the car -- 2WD, 4WD or AWD -- it's the skill and experience of the driver that makes the difference. People who don't understand the laws of physics will be in trouble no matter what they are driving, and you can argue that in the hands of an idiot a 4WD car is more dangerous on the road than a 2WD.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Sedans Vs SUVs And Vans In Snowy Conditions

Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:40 pm

Wonder how the Kiwis are going yesterday and today. Not much practiced away from the high country!

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