Everyone,

I've come out of hibernation, with the most intriguing of dilemmas. I now have 177,000 miles on my current rig. It's really starting to feel like it's falling apart. Coupled with the inevitable electronic gremlins that comes with an old German car, I'm pulling my hair out. It's time for something new.

My parameters/requirements for a vehicle to serve daily driving duty are as follows:

* Minimum of 400 Horsepower
* 4 door sedan/saloon
* German preferred, but open to other options.
* Obviously I don't care how much fuel it burns.
* A used car, 2-4 years old - so somebody else has taken the depreciation hit.
* Automatic or Manual transmission is acceptable.
* Some semblance of "Stealth" appeal - I don't want a car that /looks/ fast.

So here are my candidates. Each of these cars I have test driven, and I'll give some pros and cons for each - but what I suppose I'm really looking for is a left field alternative I might not be considering. Top to bottom in terms of preference...

#1: 2007-Current Audi S6. 5.2 liter Lamborghini V10, 435 horsepower, all wheel drive. This car has the nicest interior of them all, plus great seating, good driving position. It doesn't feel 435 horsepower fast, however, but that's a minor concern - it has enough for my needs. Comfortable on the freeway, and rock solid above 120 MPH. I like the styling, I like the package in general. This is currently the top of my list.

#2: 2009-Current Cadillac CTS-V sedan. I can get one barely within budget - after tax, it might be a bit beyond budget, but I'll deal with that. It's got a uniquely American feel to it - a 556 horsepower Supercharged 6.2 liter V8. The car feels very heavy on the road, definitely had the speed, and absolutely feels like it has 556 horsepower. I believe GM's claim that it is the fastest production sedan in the world - inside, nobody can hear you scream. Interior is... well... it's not tragic, but it lacks much of the refinement that the German counterparts offer. It doesn't feel as well bolted together. Feeling the chassis twist under the massive torque that it delivers, while hurdling forward at speeds I would only associate with the Koenigseggs, Ferraris, and Lamborghinis of the world... it was a unique experience. I also like the fact that the interior has a lot of buttons to press. The more, the better. I like my interiors cluttered.

#3: 2006-2010 BMW M5. At the start here, let me state what I hate about this car: The electronic gizmos separating you from the road - the fact that it takes a computer science education to change the radio station (fortunately I have one of those), and the transmission and engine in general - I feel the whole car is going to be a maintenance disaster. The transmission isn't a true manual, or true auto - it's one of those hydraulic jobs - what Jeremy Clarkson affectionately calls "a flappy paddle gearbox", which as we know are disastrous. That said - I drove one. I settled into what felt like an 80 mph cruise on the test drive, and looked down at the speedometer realizing that I was in 7th gear going 125 mph. This car drives like it was meant to go high speeds, all day long, for the duration of its life. It feels bred for the purpose. I just have a hard time getting over my prejudice for it. A huge pro for this car: This is by far the cheapest of all the options available to me, and the most easy to find a good used example of with a factory warranty. I had ruled it out, but it's back in the running. I'd say tied with the CTS-V.

Anyway, that's my three picks. Anyone have anything better I should investigate? The maximum budget is about $60,000, including tax out the door, but, if I can spend half that, I'll be quite happy.

[Edited 2011-08-19 20:46:30]

Dude. Choose any one - can you lose?

I might be tempted to choose the CTS just because it is such a stunning driver. You find yourself asking, "Can this really be a Caddy?" And it is, and is really that good.

You can a make sound and rational argument for any of the three.

Don't buy an Audi, you'll regret it.

Get the BMW M5. There's a good reason why it's the benchmark to which all these other cars are judged.

Quoting Siren (Thread starter): 2007-Current Audi S6

Quoting Siren (Thread starter): 2009-Current Cadillac CTS-V sedan

Quoting Siren (Thread starter): 2006-2010 BMW M5

Why bothering with those cars when you can buy a nice Dacia Sandero for 10 times less?



  

Seriously, I've never driven any of those but if I had to choose, I'd choose the BMW over the Audi (I don't know the Cadillac, sorry). The 507HP V10 is fantastic and it's a quality car. Then, for sure, the bloody iDrive is a major pain.

For $60,000 I'm sure you'll find a recent one with low mileage.

For maintenance problems, I would not know on the M series, sorry.

Look for a nice Lexus. Had my car over 5 years, never a problem.

Quoting Siren (Thread starter): * Minimum of 400 Horsepower

Hell yes!

Does Maserati have something in your prefered segment? I'm telling ya...german BMW and Merc in all fairness, but there's nothing like a real italian piece of passion...i'd go italian any day of the week.

You also forgot Mercedes E55 or E63, or even a CLS 63 would fit you requirement. Another option would be a Jaguar XF-R, which would be my choice, just as fast as the Germans but with character, Jags don't break down anymore either.

Quoting Siren (Thread starter): joined exactly 5 years ago today!

I asssume this is a gift to yourself to celebrate your Airliners.net birthday?  

Quoting Siren (Thread starter): Minimum of 400 Horsepower * 4 door sedan/saloon * German preferred, but open to other options. * Obviously I don't care how much fuel it burns. * A used car, 2-4 years old - so somebody else has taken the depreciation hit. * Automatic or Manual transmission is acceptable. * Some semblance of "Stealth" appeal - I don't want a car that /looks/ fast.

You may also want to consider a Chrysler 300C SRT-8.
It's baseed off the Mercedes W210 E-class.
Since the 2011 has be restyled, you can pick up a used 2010 or older model for a lot less.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 2): Don't buy an Audi, you'll regret it.

  
What MrChips said.

Quoting Siren (Thread starter): 2009-Current Cadillac CTS-V sedan It's got a uniquely American feel to it - a 556 horsepower Supercharged 6.2 liter V8. The car feels very heavy on the road, definitely had the speed, and absolutely feels like it has 556 horsepower.

Sounds like an EXCELLENT choice!   

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7): You also forgot Mercedes E55 or E63, or even a CLS 63 would fit you requirement.

That was exactly my first thought. The CTS would be nice as well, but it would definitely be worth it to test drive at least one AMG Benz.

Quoting Mika (Reply 6): Does Maserati have something in your prefered segment?

There should be plenty of used Quattroportes in that price range, or even well under, but they might not be the latest, best performing ones. Probably worth a look though.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8): You may also want to consider a Chrysler 300C SRT-8. It's baseed off the Mercedes W210 E-class.

Very losely, only the suspension came from Mercedes, it's a mix of W220 S and W210 E, the plaftorm is a development of the Chrysler LH platform which in turn was derived from the wonderful Renault 25 plaform used on the Eagle Premier.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7): You also forgot Mercedes E55 or E63, or even a CLS 63 would fit you requirement.

Initially the CLS63 and CLS55 were at the very top of my list, but I drove one. As far as the driving dynamics go, it's easily my favorite pick, but I have some issues with the roofline, interior layout, and driving/seating position that made it a bad pick for me. If I were going based on looks and sheer passion, the CLS wins, hands down.

I've owned a W210 E55 before - there's a reason I'm not considering any. The dealer out here is a pain to deal with, and the bad service experience really tuned me off from going E55/E63.

Quoting Mika (Reply 6): there's nothing like a real italian piece of passion...i'd go italian any day of the week.

You're totally right. I've owned two Italian cars - a 1987 Maserati Biturbo SI, and a 1991 Alfa Romeo 164S. Headaches were common, but yes, they have a definite soul and personality that isn't replicable.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9): There should be plenty of used Quattroportes in that price range, or even well under, but they might not be the latest, best performing ones. Probably worth a look though.

Great suggestion. This one hadn't even crossed my mind, even though I 'know' about them. It's worth looking into.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8): You may also want to consider a Chrysler 300C SRT-8. It's baseed off the Mercedes W210 E-class.

I'll also check this one out! I swore I'd never buy another W210, but, I've spent a few hours with a Challenger SRT-8 and I thought it was a decent driving machine. I would assume the 300C would feel somewhat similar.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7): Another option would be a Jaguar XF-R

Even the standard XF Supercharged would do. I didn't think I could find one of these under budget, but I'll take a look. I've driven an XF Supercharged about a year ago, and had the chance to flog it around on the freeway. It didn't feel any faster than my W210 E55 at the time, so I was a bit let down. The R may change the dynamics around enough to make a big difference however...

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8): I asssume this is a gift to yourself to celebrate your Airliners.net birthday?

Not at all, actually. This is just sheer dumb coincidence. I should be getting my windfall sometime in the next two weeks...

Quoting Siren (Reply 11): As far as the driving dynamics go, it's easily my favorite pick, but I have some issues with the roofline,

Out of curiosity, how tall are you?

Quoting Siren (Reply 11): Great suggestion. This one hadn't even crossed my mind, even though I 'know' about them. It's worth looking into.

Based on what I've seen, used QPortes tend to start from the high 30s, but the newer ones will have more performance and be accordingly pricier.

Also, you ought to take a look at M3 sedans. They should be reasonably priced ($60,000 can buy a new one) and there seems to be a definite inverse relationship of driving quality to price among the M lineup. There's a new 3 coming next year, so you could get one of the last V8 M3's off the line.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12): Out of curiosity, how tall are you?

Short. It's not a headroom issue.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12): Also, you ought to take a look at M3 sedans

Worth checking out. I didn't think they were that cheap!

What about a Holden Commodore/Pontiac G8 with the V8. Plenty of performance upgrades available, and for added stealth appeal, you could change the Pontiac badges & front clip for Holden ones. I've heard of guys over there doing this with their G8's...

Quoting Siren (Thread starter): * Minimum of 400 Horsepower

So you can really max out those 75mph speed limits and enjoy the nice handling on those long and straight roads in the US?   

The BMW M5 sucks. Not only because I hate BMW in general, but because it's just not a very good car. The Audi does everything better and it doesn't kick you in the back of your head everytime the automatic switches gears. It's really uncomfortable to drive inside a city.

Quoting Siren (Reply 11): CLS63 and CLS55 were at the very top of my list, but I drove one. As far as the driving dynamics go, it's easily my favorite pick, but I have some issues with the roofline, interior layout, and driving/seating position that made it a bad pick for me. If I were going based on looks and sheer passion, the CLS wins, hands down.

Mercedes look like grandpa cars and their sport versions look like vulgar pimp rides. Also, the CLS 55 doesn't even exist. At least not of the current version. They only have it as CLS 63.


I don't like giving details of my personal life, but ''a person I'm closely related to'' has been driving the RS6 for a while now and there's never been a problem. As far as workmanship goes, you won't find a better car. There is also a tuning kit that will bring the engine output to around 720bhp. I testdrove it and while great for acceleration, it ruins your gas mileage and I am also not sure what effects that performce boost has on the longevity on the engine.

But I am still confused why Americans buy cars with more than 140bhp or so. The roads there don't even have bends for the most part, the cities are on a constant gridlock and there are speed limits everywhere. Why kill polarbears and empty your wallet at the pump, when you don't get anything in return for it? The last time I was in the US, and it will have been the last time, I saw a guy getting pulled over for accelerating ''too hard'' at a traffic light. I pulled over and out of curiousity (and not to make the same mistake, that I didn't see, myself) asked the guy what that was all about after the cops had left and he told me he got a ticket for ''reckless driving''. So what do you need 400+ horses for?

Quoting MrChips (Reply 2): Don't buy an Audi, you'll regret it.

I disagree. All the Audi's I've driven have been exceptional. Cannot say the same about BMW. But, really BMW vs Merc vs Audi is like A vs B here. They are all excellent, and all have their fans.

I would buy the Audi of those 3 choices, but I'd keep looking for something a bit more unordinary. A Maserati would look good, but I don't know if there is a model that fits your criteria.

-CXfirst

I’d either buy the S6 or the Cadillac – the M5 only if you could manage to get a hold of one of the few ones with a manual transmission (yes, they exist, and they haven’t got a possibility to turn the “Dynamic Stability Control” completely off).

S6: Amazing interior, amazing engine (not the most powerful but still amazing), a sold, REAL automatic gearbox, good outside looks

CTS: Lots of gizmos, breathtaking power, stylish exterior, a choice between a real automatic and a real manual gearbox

M5: BMW is a BMW is a BMW, IMHO disgusting front and very nice sides and rear (exterior), interior very nice but not close to the Audi’s, engine .. well, you know .. automatic sequential manual gearbox often very disastrous in snail speed-manoeuvring and city traffic, manual version very nice but there is the DSC problem ––– I’d drive one if I could. 

One word for you, BMW! I would seriously look into a 2008 BMW M3 Sedan. 414 HP of prestine power and M performace. Mercedes is for grand pa and Audi's for the wanna be cool guys  

I personally drive a BMW and have driven it for 3 years with zero problems pretty much. I suggest that you give the M3 sedan a try...

You have to check out some AMG Mercdes, C63 or E63 not sure if you will fine too many E63s in the new body unver 60K but look at some AMGs too. Mercedes makes some awesome cars.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 16):

exactly.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 16): I disagree. All the Audi's I've driven have been exceptional. Cannot say the same about BMW. But, really BMW vs Merc vs Audi is like A vs B here. They are all excellent, and all have their fans.

Exactly! Out of the 3 you mentioned I would go with the Audi. I also wanted to suggest the RS 6 but it seems that you don't get it in the US.

Do you have any preference regarding the engine sound? I prefer the sound of a big V8 over the screaming V10 of the M5/S6, which speaks for the Caddy. Unfortunately the CTS-V is IMHO as ugly as sin. It's a pity that you rule out any Mercs because of bad experience with your local dealer. My personal 1st choice would be a CLS 63 or a C 63 Sedan, in the 2nd place the Audi and the C300 placed a distant third!

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 18): Audi's for the wanna be cool guys

..I thought that was simply an honest opinion, but then I saw

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 18): I personally drive a BMW

and thought your opinion had a lot to do with your driving a BMW.  

Quoting melpax (Reply 14): What about a Holden Commodore/Pontiac G8 with the V8. Plenty of performance upgrades available, and for added stealth appeal, you could change the Pontiac badges & front clip for Holden ones. I've heard of guys over there doing this with their G8's...

Would have to be one of the very uncommon top of the line models if I went that route - and they only imported something like a few thousand into the USA, of all variants. I had considered it, but I couldn't even find a For Sale ad with one of these cars.

That said, I should be able to find it within budget easily if I can find one for sale.

Quoting something (Reply 15): So you can really max out those 75mph speed limits and enjoy the nice handling on those long and straight roads in the US?

Do I strike you as somebody who pays any attention to what the sign post says? And trust me, we have some amazing roads out here, including my very favorite piece of highway in the world: US 101 between the SF Bay Area and Santa Barbara. My last trip on that road, I managed to average 93 mph - which included a fuel stop. I'm particularly proud of that number! Oh, and - most of the speed limits in CA are 65 mph. The fastest in-state speed limit is 70 mph.

Quoting something (Reply 15): But I am still confused why Americans buy cars with more than 140bhp or so. The roads there don't even have bends for the most part, the cities are on a constant gridlock and there are speed limits everywhere. Why kill polarbears and empty your wallet at the pump, when you don't get anything in return for it?

Well, I'm going to sound completely classist here, but, there are certain dynamics within America. This country has criminalized most everything - we regularly see absurdities like homeless people in homeless shelters arrested for being homeless. The basic dynamic out here is one of selective enforcement. If you have money and the right color skin, you can rest assured that your chances of being pulled over, for any reason, are about 90% less than anyone who doesn't. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying that's how it works here.

Furthermore, I outfit my cars with as much electronic countermeasures as I can. This includes hard wiring a top-line radar detector, as well as a LIDAR jammer. My equipment cost for everything has been around $1,100 - and it has paid for itself hundreds of times over, I can't count. Supposedly LIDAR jammers are illegal, but I disagree with the law that makes them so - it's essentially an unconstitutional power grab that attempts to regulate the visible light spectrum. And the consequences for being caught are so minimal that it's not even enforced.

The trick to speeding in America is: be discreet. Generally, drive like a German with amazing lane discipline, ALWAYS use turn signals, stay out of the fast lane as much as possible - keep right except to pass. Discretion is the better part of valor. You don't blow into a group of traffic going 130 mph unless you want to attract undue attention.

And as far as police speed enforcement ambushes go: Radar can be detected a few miles away in most cases (unless you're cresting a hill), Highway Patrol runs Ka Band radar at 34.7 GHz - easiest way to sniff out a cop and figure out what agency it is to boot! Anything outside the 34.7, you're dealing with a local Sheriff - and they're much more apt to get revenue for their county. LIDAR on the other hand requires direct line-of-sight from the cop. If he can see you, you can see him. Which means if you're hit with laser doing an incredibly stupid speed, then frankly you deserve the ticket for losing situational awareness.

I'll say like the boys on Top Gear: Audi drivers are c*cks!  

Quoting Siren (Reply 22): Well, I'm going to sound completely classist here, but, there are certain dynamics within America. This country has criminalized most everything - we regularly see absurdities like homeless people in homeless shelters arrested for being homeless. The basic dynamic out here is one of selective enforcement. If you have money and the right color skin, you can rest assured that your chances of being pulled over, for any reason, are about 90% less than anyone who doesn't. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying that's how it works here.

Well dude, you're a local and you know the tricks to the trade. As an unexperienced foreigner America just feels extremely dangerous, like you're in jail with one foot already just for being there. But I'm glad things work for you. I'd be even happier though if America did away with speed limits and put their chips on better driver's education instead. I drove from San Francisco to San Diego once and I honestly find driving at a constant 70mph down an empty straight road much more dangerous than dashing down at 150mph. That will at least make sure you're awake and concentrated.

Quoting Siren (Reply 11): The R may change the dynamics around enough to make a big difference however...

Trust me you should find one and drive it, the XF-R is a real beast, I'd take one over an M5 or E63 any day.

The other options are the junior super saloons, you should be able to find a C63, RS4 or M3 sedan lurking in your price range.

Quoting Mika (Reply 23): Audi drivers are c*cks!

{checkmark
Agreed!
You can also say that Audi drivers may like co_-s. I dunno why but Audis just seem so umm.... pink..

Quoting MrChips (Reply 2): Don't buy an Audi, you'll regret it. Get the BMW M5. There's a good reason why it's the benchmark to which all these other cars are judged.

Your reasoning for not buying Audi?
Audi has been growing in market share/sales at a MUCH greater rate than BMW. Audi wins awards left right and centre.
That said the M5 is a great car, but I wouldn't write an Audi off, they also offer better value for money.

Quoting Siren (Reply 13): Short. It's not a headroom issue.

Oh, okay. I have never been in a CLS, but I found a Volkswagen CC to be really comfortable for a long drive across France.

Quoting Siren (Reply 13): Worth checking out. I didn't think they were that cheap!

The sedan has a sticker price starting at about $56,000. Of course, if you add some options plus a potential dealer markup, you could blow right by 60k.

Quoting something (Reply 15): There is also a tuning kit that will bring the engine output to around 720bhp. I testdrove it and while great for acceleration, it ruins your gas mileage and I am also not sure what effects that performce boost has on the longevity on the engine.

Most such kits will void the factory warranty but most reputable tuners will include their own.

Quoting something (Reply 15): But I am still confused why Americans buy cars with more than 140bhp or so.

Because it's awesome.

Quoting something (Reply 15): the cities are on a constant gridlock

Not the cities I drive around.

Quoting something (Reply 15): there are speed limits everywhere.

There might be speed limits everywhere, but there aren't police everywhere.

Quoting something (Reply 15): Why kill polarbears and empty your wallet at the pump, when you don't get anything in return for it?

Entertainment.

Quoting something (Reply 15): The last time I was in the US, and it will have been the last time, I saw a guy getting pulled over for accelerating ''too hard'' at a traffic light. I pulled over and out of curiousity (and not to make the same mistake, that I didn't see, myself) asked the guy what that was all about after the cops had left and he told me he got a ticket for ''reckless driving''. So what do you need 400+ horses for?

First, the cop is a jerk and probably just in a bad mood. In most places it is illegal to peel out, but accelerating too hard? That is just a BS charge, he could probably beat that ticket in court. Second, don't do stuff like that in front of cops.

Quoting Siren (Reply 22): The trick to speeding in America is: be discreet

   And pay attention. Plus staying off the phone and not being reckless helps too.

Quoting something (Reply 24): I'd be even happier though if America did away with speed limits and put their chips on better driver's education instead.

I'm all in favor of that. But there are quite a few roads that, effectively, have no speed limit.

Quoting something (Reply 24): Well dude

Dude? Dude looks like a lady! Siren = female poster.  

In response to BMI727, I find overpowered cars very annoying to drive where you can't. You will always exceed the speed limit, the engine is embarrassingly loud, you burn a lot of unnecessary fuel, it costs a lot of unnecessary money and unless you're in a Maybach, the ride will just be enjoyable. As I said, the M5 transmission will literally feel like a horse kick in the back everytime it switches gears. Try driving like that for an hour on a hot day, when you have a headache.

I find 200bhp are more than enough to move along. Everything else is a waste of money, in my eyes. As I recently found out, an Aventador has a much harder acceleration between 280-320km/h than the Murcielago but realistically- how often do you need that? Especially since I find driving at over 240km/h extremely exhaustive. You're sweating, you have to focus really hard and even sports cars will feel like they're riding on marshmellow over 280km/h. Plus, your tank is empty all the time. An Aventador eviscerates close to 80 liters per 100km at top speed, or for you my American friends that is 1.28 miles to the gallon and you will run through a set of tires in no time. It's an interesting thing to do, but nothing I'd do more than once. Everything up to 240km/h is a good travel speed, everything above is just uncomfortable. And you can very comfortably drive 240km/h with a 200bhp car. Though admittedly, even the CC will show 16.8 liters per 100km at that speed on the display.

Quoting something (Reply 30): I find overpowered cars very annoying to drive where you can't. You will always exceed the speed limit, the engine is embarrassingly loud, you burn a lot of unnecessary fuel, it costs a lot of unn.....

If Siren wants a fast car then so be it!
Siren needs not to explain to any of us why she wants a particular vehicle.

Quoting something (Reply 30): As I said, the M5 transmission will literally feel like a horse kick in the back everytime it switches gears. Try driving like that for an hour on a hot day, when you have a headache.

You must have driven a sick one, I've driven an M5 & M6, the transmission is just as smooth as any torque converter auto, it's only when you hit the M button and give is some welly that the tranny really slams the gear changes home, that's all part of the fun.

Quoting something (Reply 30): As I recently found out, an Aventador has a much harder acceleration between 280-320km/h than the Murcielago but realistically- how often do you need that?

Who actually needs a Lamborghini in the first place? Nobody.

What you need to understand is that for many of us, cars are more than a way to get from A to B. It's entertainment, a comfortable environment, a hobby, etc. Having certain cars is like owning your own amusement park. People don't buy Lamborghinis for practicality, people buy them for enjoyment and because they are cool. I'd put up with a lot for a fun car to drive.

Your entire argument is like saying toasters are bad because you can't use one to make a smoothie.

Quoting something (Reply 30): an Aventador has a much harder acceleration between 280-320km/h than the Murcielago but realistically- how often do you need that?

Need it? Practically never. Want it? Always.

Quoting something (Reply 30): Plus, your tank is empty all the time. An Aventador eviscerates close to 80 liters per 100km at top speed, or for you my American friends that is 1.28 miles to the gallon and you will run through a set of tires in no time

If Lamborghini owners were worried about fuel costs or paying for a new set of tires they wouldn't be Lamborghini owners.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33): Who actually needs a Lamborghini in the first place? Nobody.

A race driver to whom the car belonged. Well, it was still owned by Lamborghini technically but they give it to him which also explains why he lets me hold it and doesn't care about the miles or kilometers on it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33): If Lamborghini owners were worried about fuel costs or paying for a new set of tires they wouldn't be Lamborghini owners.

That is true for a very small portion of Lamborghini owners. The really rich people I have come across would never drive such an ostentatious car. A set of tires for the Aventador is $8000, filling the tank up is $300 (in Germany). A $300 (110 liters of super plus 100 octane fuel) will get you, depending on your style of driving of course, about 30-45mins of driving. A set of tires will last 1-3 months. Add to that the cost of ownership and you look at more than $10 000 a month to drive a Lamborghini like that. The people that have that much money to spare, usually don't have time to ride around in Lamborghinis.

But I'm not trying to downplay those cars or saying it can't be fun to drive them. It's just that for an everyday ride it's a waste of money and it's not even useable on US roads.

Quoting something (Reply 34): That is true for a very small portion of Lamborghini owners. The really rich people I have come across would never drive such an ostentatious car. A set of tires for the Aventador is $8000, filling the tank up is $300 (in Germany). A $300 (110 liters of super plus 100 octane fuel) will get you, depending on your style of driving of course, about 30-45mins of driving. A set of tires will last 1-3 months. Add to that the cost of ownership and you look at more than $10 000 a month to drive a Lamborghini like that. The people that have that much money to spare, usually don't have time to ride around in Lamborghinis.

I doubt that. There may be some owners who were, fincaially speaking, better off not driving a Lamborghini, but thats for sure not the majority. There's really no such thing like a group of really rich people who dont drive ostenatious cars. Just have a look at the Middle East or Russia! These are the places where you can find (IMHO) really ostenatious tuned cars. Besides, if somebody wants to spend all his money to maintain a car it is his choice!

Quoting something (Reply 34): But I'm not trying to downplay those cars or saying it can't be fun to drive them. It's just that for an everyday ride it's a waste of money and it's not even useable on US roads.

Well, it's my own choice how I spend my money. Everybody can decide on their own what they want to do with their money! If it's a waste of money or not is simply a personal matter.

Quoting something (Reply 30): An Aventador eviscerates close to 80 liters per 100km at top speed, or for you my American friends that is 1.28 miles to the gallon

80 L/100 converts to 2.94 MPG (US) or 3.53 MPG (Imperial)

But if you can afford a Lambo, WTF, eh?

Personally, I have been tempted recently to buy a used Lotus Esprit V8. You can get low-milage examples for well under $50K, they don't guzzle gas nearly that bad, and they are some of the prettiest cars ever made.

I'd say the Lotus Esprit V8 does not fulfill the following requirement:

Quoting Siren (Thread starter): * Some semblance of "Stealth" appeal - I don't want a car that /looks/ fast.

Quoting something (Reply 34): That is true for a very small portion of Lamborghini owners. The really rich people I have come across would never drive such an ostentatious car. A set of tires for the Aventador is $8000, filling the tank up is $300 (in Germany). A $300 (110 liters of super plus 100 octane fuel) will get you, depending on your style of driving of course, about 30-45mins of driving. A set of tires will last 1-3 months. Add to that the cost of ownership and you look at more than $10 000 a month to drive a Lamborghini like that. The people that have that much money to spare, usually don't have time to ride around in Lamborghinis.

For the most part, vehicles like that are absolutely unusable on US roadways. Agreed on pricing - they must cost a fortune to run and operate, and if it's in a bright color - I call Ferraris in red, "Arrest-Me Red". It's an invitation for the police to pull you over.

I believe in discreet power. You're also absolutely right, more than 200 HP is not necessary for day to day driving. But I don't really concern myself with what the speed limit is - we don't have speed cameras in California (yet) - police actually have to enforce the speed. And with police being laid off left and right due to budget cuts, there's a smaller and smaller pool available to waste their time on speed enforcement, as they've got more important things to do (like keeping the poor and non-Caucasians oppressed).

Speed is important - but it needs to come in a discreet package that doesn't overtly advertise its true sporting nature. The Q-ship appeal is really necessary.

Quoting comorin (Reply 29): Dude? Dude looks like a lady! Siren = female poster.

I was wondering how long it would take before somebody figured that out.

  

Quoting srqmuc (Reply 20): Exactly! Out of the 3 you mentioned I would go with the Audi. I also wanted to suggest the RS 6 but it seems that you don't get it in the US.

We got the RS6 in 2003 only. Audi imported something like 1,300 into the USA. I haven't driven one, but, it's a little old... that having been said, a twin turbo 450 HP V8 has a certain appeal, and I can get one for half my budget. Might be worth checking out - even though I know it will be a headache in terms of maintenance.

We did get the RS4 here - and I've driven one. The 4.2 is utterly gutless and torqueless. You have to drive it like you hate it to get it to do anything. Same engine as in the entry level R8. Just not suited to my driving style. I like having torque on tap...

And in other news, I will be test driving an XF-R tomorrow, and also looking at a W211 E63 AMG...

3 words..

C 63 AMG.

Quoting Siren (Reply 38): W211 E63 AMG...

Or that   

Both are great cars..I've driven both, but like the C-class better..its more compact and goes like crazy!

Quoting Siren (Reply 38): We got the RS6 in 2003 only. Audi imported something like 1,300 into the USA. I haven't driven one, but, it's a little old... that having been said, a twin turbo 450 HP V8 has a certain appeal, and I can get one for half my budget. Might be worth checking out - even though I know it will be a headache in terms of maintenance.

Nah, why would you pick one from 2003? I would'nt spend so much money for a 8 years old car    I was talking about the RS6 which was produced from 2008 to 2010 with a 580 HP 5.0L V10!

Quoting Siren (Reply 38): We did get the RS4 here - and I've driven one. The 4.2 is utterly gutless and torqueless. You have to drive it like you hate it to get it to do anything. Same engine as in the entry level R8. Just not suited to my driving style. I like having torque on tap...

It's a shame that the choice of engines is still so limited in the US, at least for german cars. As far as I am concerned the BMW 3 series and the Merc W212 offer a bigger diesel engine choice. They have the torque just from the beginning and they are perfect for high speed autobahn crusing  

Quoting Siren (Reply 38): And in other news, I will be test driving an XF-R tomorrow, and also looking at a W211 E63 AMG...

Sounds good! Keep us informed!

Quoting something (Reply 34): The really rich people I have come across would never drive such an ostentatious car.

Nobody said being wealthy automatically means you have to spend a lot on cars. Some people just don't care.

Quoting something (Reply 34): A set of tires for the Aventador is $8000, filling the tank up is $300 (in Germany).

People who buy $400,000 cars can afford that. And Lamborghinis come with window stickers like any other car so people can see what they are getting into.

Quoting something (Reply 34): The people that have that much money to spare, usually don't have time to ride around in Lamborghinis.

Good thing you can just drive a Lamborghini back and forth to work if you want then, and some people do exactly that.

Quoting something (Reply 34): It's just that for an everyday ride it's a waste of money and it's not even useable on US roads.

A lot of supercars can and are used as daily drivers, but in some cases it takes some sacrifices. Lamborghinis are perfectly usable on US roads and the care and feeding of such cars is no more a waste than money spent on golf, movies, or sporting events.

It's obvious that cars are just appliances used to go from one place to the next to you, and that is why there is Toyota.

Quoting Siren (Reply 38): And in other news, I will be test driving an XF-R tomorrow, and also looking at a W211 E63 AMG...

I'd also consider looking at the previous generation S65 AMG. Because they're previous generation you should be able to get a tip-top 2006 (last year of the breed) with four digit mileage for within your budget and have cash to spare. The problem is finding one because the 65s are so rare.

With a twin turbo 6.0L V12 kicking out 612bhp and 740lb/ft torque it meets all your requirements...except maybe the stealth one. The gunmetal wheels and AMG badges might be a giveaway as to its nature.

I've got the baby twinturbo V12 brother, the S600, and love it. For a W220 it's been ultra reliable (the later ones generally are though) and it still looks the part. Mine does have the AMG appearance package (wheels, sideskirts, bumpers) but not many people realise it's an M5 rival in a straight line shoot out (so it has the stealth appeal you're after) but the 65 AMGs will leave them for dead.

This looks to be right up your alley: an unbelievably tidy 2006 S65 with 47k miles, warrantied to 9/2014, asking $50k so you it's a lot less in reality...
http://mbworld.org/forums/mercedes-v...ty-till-october-2014-184k-new.html

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 27): Your reasoning for not buying Audi? Audi has been growing in market share/sales at a MUCH greater rate than BMW. Audi wins awards left right and centre. That said the M5 is a great car, but I wouldn't write an Audi off, they also offer better value for money.

Full disclaimer: I am a BMW fan, and I'm on my third BMW right now.

A car company growing faster than another doesn't mean that their product is better in any way. In fact, it can mean rather the opposite...I am firmly of the opinion that Audi and VAG in general have been cutting corners in their quest to be #1 in the world.

As for why I wouldn't buy an Audi specifically, I don't think they're as well-engineered or put together as well as the competing BMWs or Mercedes products (at least right now - MB seems to be on the up-and-up in terms of their quality once again). Audi consistently ranks far below average in initial and long-term quality, both within their market segment and overall. Beyond that, I find Audis have very derivative, bland styling. Say what you will about the looks of the E60 5-Series, its styling elements have been aped the world over since it debuted in 2004.

I think I'd go with the S6 or a Mercedes. I don't like the looks of most BMWs.. they just have some weird designs, IMO. That goes for both the interior, but especially also for the exterior.