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MadameConcorde
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:51 pm

I would be cautious with what the main stream media is feeding people. There is a lot of pro-NATO propaganda in it.

They have not brought any real proof that Khadafy was captured or dead or any of his sons was either.
It could all be faked.

I don't trust the media. Not CNN or the Beeb or not Al Jazeera either. It's all manipulated.

Western leaders are such hypocrits. They used to welcome him with arms opened. Sarkozy set up tents in the Parc de Saint Cloud and Trocadero gardens (both wealthies areas) for him and welcomed him in Paris as if he was the King of the World not so long ago and then changed direction.

It's all very obscure.

 Wow!
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EDICHC
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:31 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 38):
That ship has sailed he paid off the families for that.

Not necessarily..that was a civil settlement, he could still face criminal charges.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 50):
Western leaders are such hypocrits. They used to welcome him with arms opened.

That's politics for you.
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ER757
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:29 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 48):
Cool pic...In another life, I can see Gaddafi as a rock 'n' roller.

Is it just me, or could he pass for Carlos Santana in that getup?
 
Acheron
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:23 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 42):
Perhaps the most recent major Islamic country to self-liberate itself from a dictator would be Indonesia. I have not noticed that it is a theocracy.

Ehm, I'm pretty sure the Indonesian way of seeing things, particularly religion, is quite different of those countries with a lot of tribal influence going on (Pakistan, A-Stan, etc) or under the sphere of influence of the lunatics ruling Iran or Saudi Arabia.
So, I wouldn't really compare them since its like comparing Shiia and Sunnis and thinking they are all the same just because they fall under Islam.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 43):
Besides, those countires you mention are looking at Tukey´s model, whom a few years ago many thought would become the next Saudi Arabia when Erdogan came to power.

The reason why Erdogan probably cut short his whole islamist idiocy is because he realized how much Turkey depends on Western countries and Israel, not because he is a actually a "moderate".

Doesn't mean he can't pull a Saudi Arabia and back islamists everywhere while mantaining the image of being "moderate".

Quoting AR385 (Reply 43):
The truth is, the Islamic world is as tired of secular tyrannies as it is of Islamist theocratic tyrannies. Most likely, they will find a middle way, through democracy.

Lol, I wish I shared your optimism, but I don't. They might try democracy the first few years, but then watch it all come crashing down when either an islamist crowd or secular general stage a coupe and take over the country and the process starts again.

By the way, where was the uproar when Bahrain crushed their protests with the help of Saudi Arabia?. I didn't see NATO bombing any of them.

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):
There has been decades of 'credible evidence' of his brutal misdeeds, his very generous support for all manner of terrorists for a start, maybe that did not register in your part of the world, but his effective re-arming of the IRA certainly did here.

And?
There are plenty of less-than-stellar regimes that are quite friendly with the west, which makes this whole "we bombed them because he was an evil dictator" a BS argument, in my opinion.

By the way, didn't some irish-american citizens living in the US provide funding for IRA as well?. How many people went to jail for that?.

I'm pretty sure there is a lot more of reason for whats going on in Lybia at the moment, "democracy" and "freedom" not being the primary ones, as some people would like to believe to make themselves feel better.
The real reasons?. To be honest, I don't care, but I'm pretty sure at this point that what's happening now in Lybia will come back to bite the West in the ass, just like it has happened pretty much everytime someone tries to pull the same stunt in the Middle East and Africa.
 
NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:25 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
Who said that?" .. the comments speak for themselves. Loudly and clearly.

Ok so as I asked who said this? I never said what Obama did was wrong. I mean it was clear he just wanted to get Khadaffi out of the picture and to be honest he could have handled it better by sending another Seal team in. Instead of wasting 6 months and thousands of lives not to mention pissing off his base in congress.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 41):
Which, most likely than not, will end up turning themselves into islamic theocracies.

Yep basically what we will have. Another leader who does the same thing as Khadaffi without being an international terrorist.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 43):
like Pakistan or Afghanistan, which in reality has never moved forward.

Very bad examples.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 50):
I would be cautious with what the main stream media is feeding people. There is a lot of pro-NATO propaganda in it.

They have not brought any real proof that Khadafy was captured or dead or any of his sons was either.
It could all be faked.

I don't trust the media. Not CNN or the Beeb or not Al Jazeera either. It's all manipulated.

Well AJ is much worse than CNN but your basically right.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 51):
Not necessarily..that was a civil settlement, he could still face criminal charges.

Not in this life. He is gone. Give it a week and trust me he will he having coffee with Chavez.
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comorin
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:06 am

Quoting ER757 (Reply 52):
Quoting comorin (Reply 48):
Cool pic...In another life, I can see Gaddafi as a rock 'n' roller.

Is it just me, or could he pass for Carlos Santana in that getup?

You're right on! I kept thinking he'd be a good sideman for Robert Plant, but you've nailed it!


In other news, Saif Gaddafi is having a night out on the town! He has been spotted at the Rixos Hotel, says CNN. It just goes to show that the rules are different for rich folks. I bet he knows a few hangouts in Tripoli that we couldn't get in.
 
NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:20 am

The plot thickens

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...-gaddafi-son-idUSTRE77L4Z620110822

Also just heard his other son is on video walking into a hotel free.


Madam Concorde was right on this one. The media is being totally manipulated. I don't think they ever had Saif al-Islam in custody.

[Edited 2011-08-22 17:21:22]
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BN747
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:31 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 54):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
Who said that?" .. the comments speak for themselves. Loudly and clearly.

Ok so as I asked who said this? I never said what Obama did was wrong. I mean it was clear he just wanted to get Khadaffi out of the picture and to be honest he could have handled it better by sending another Seal team in. Instead of wasting 6 months and thousands of lives not to mention pissing off his base in congress.

You know what you have said with Libya quips here and their, comments in the Somalia thread (self-determination, self-help), your past Iraq comments..as I said, the conclusions and comparisons (vs whose in POTUS at the time) speaks volumes as to why the attempt to piss rain on efforts by the the Libyan uprising.

As for Congress everyone already knows this is a Congress that gets pissed everyday Obama wakes up -- end of story.

Maybe you should run for POTUS...you seem to have all the solutions to everything.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 54):
Quoting Acheron (Reply 41):
Which, most likely than not, will end up turning themselves into islamic theocracies.

Yep basically what we will have. Another leader who does the same thing as Khadaffi without being an international terrorist.

I'd say that's small step forward versus where they were last year.


BN747
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NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:41 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
You know what you have said with Libya quips here and their, comments in the Somalia thread (self-determination, self-help), your past Iraq comments..as I said, the conclusions and comparisons (vs whose in POTUS at the time) speaks volumes as to why the attempt to piss rain on efforts by the the Libyan uprising.

Somalia is a whole different animal their people are pirates terrorizing ships not planes. I would ask again but it's clear you don't have an example just throwing bombs.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
As for Congress everyone already knows this is a Congress that gets pissed everyday Obama wakes up -- end of story.

Oh yea Kucinich is a Republican right?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
I'd say that's small step forward versus where they were last year.

Until you see who emerges in power.
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prebennorholm
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:03 am

It all means that it is likely that my six F-16 fighters can soon return back home where they belong. After having tossed 670 smart bombs at $55,000 a piece.

Fotunately I share the cost with fellow tax payers - my share of the bomb bill is roughly $25.
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comorin
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:18 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 60):

But, but the bombs were already paid for! At least they were used  
 
AR385
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:32 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 53):
The reason why Erdogan probably cut short his whole islamist idiocy is because he realized how much Turkey depends on Western countries and Israel, not because he is a actually a "moderate".

Doesn't mean he can't pull a Saudi Arabia and back islamists everywhere while mantaining the image of being "moderate".

Maybe. I´ll give the benefit of the doubt to your opinion, but the reason doesn´t matter does it? What matters is the result. And the result is that he has kept Turkey a moderate, secular state. About pulling a "Saudi Arabia" I doubt it. It´s not in the interests of his country both current ones and future ones.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 53):
They might try democracy the first few years, but then watch it all come crashing down when either an islamist crowd or secular general stage a coupe and take over the country and the process starts again.

Yes, well, and if I had crystal ball I could be a millionaire by now.
 
baroque
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:00 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 53):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 42):
Perhaps the most recent major Islamic country to self-liberate itself from a dictator would be Indonesia. I have not noticed that it is a theocracy.

Ehm, I'm pretty sure the Indonesian way of seeing things, particularly religion, is quite different of those countries with a lot of tribal influence going on (Pakistan, A-Stan, etc) or under the sphere of influence of the lunatics ruling Iran or Saudi Arabia.
So, I wouldn't really compare them since its like comparing Shiia and Sunnis and thinking they are all the same just because they fall under Islam.

Of course the Indonesian way is different but that is the point, you think you can draw equivalences between countries that simply are not valid. And as to Indonesia not containing groups that are similar to tribal groups          They speak different languages and aside from language they look very similar to you and me, but not to Indonesians and that is before they hear the name. We just do not happen to call them tribes, but tribes they are.

Sure, it is a possibility that Libya COULD end up a theocracy, but there are better reasons to suppose it will not do so. For a start, the rebels say they will not. All you have to support your doom and gloom view is a bit of arm waving and a few lines rewritten from "We'll all be rooned said Hanrahan".

As has been pointed out, Libya will most likely look to Turkey for guidance, but there are quite a few returned expats who have wider experience and they may well be influencial.

Or then again, we could all beg Gaddafi to forgive us and let him know that now we understand the true way we will send the rebs back to their boxes and eternally and forever follow his wise words. Yes that is attractive.

The rebs do appear to have been rather sloppy in letting the sons escape. But I gather the word has gone out from Benghazi to be tougher next time.
 
MCOGVADCA
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime End

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:08 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 62):

Of course the Indonesian way is different but that is the point, you think you can draw equivalences between countries that simply are not valid. And as to Indonesia not containing groups that are similar to tribal groups          They speak different languages and aside from language they look very similar to you and me, but not to Indonesians and that is before they hear the name. We just do not happen to call them tribes, but tribes they are.

Right on, Baroque. It's incredible that Indo is still one country! (*excluding East Timor, which seceded based on old colonial ties as it was Portuguese, and not tribalism). Animists in Irian Jaya, Christians in Sulawesi, the moderate Muslims of Java, Hindus in Bali and Muslim fundamentalists in Aceh couldn't be more different (not the Economist's finest moment, but at one point I believe they predicted that Indo would be upwards of 20 different countries!) their language is a constructed trading language (the story of how they adopted Roman script instead of Arabic script was a fascinating political calculation) and is why Bahasa Indonesia/Melayu is so easy to learn, so as to reinforce rather flimsy bonds of nationalism. You're right, implying Indonesia is devoid of tribalism or regionalism is not an accurate characterization of Indonesia!

[Edited 2011-08-22 21:10:43]
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aerorobnz
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:11 am

The new regime of militants are just as bad as Gaddafi and just as criminal, and they'll turn into the Status quo that needs to be eradicated like Gaddafi soon enough, In many ways it'd be easier now for Gaddafi to use his chemical warfare within Libya now and save us all the effort in 20 years.
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baroque
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:31 am

First nobody knows who they are and now some know they are just as criminal as Gaddafi and ..... Wow. Now I know who stole my crystal ball. Chant after me, "We'll all be rooned said Hanrahan.

Don't suppose there is a reference for this doom and gloom?
 
11Bravo
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:40 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 65):
Don't suppose there is a reference for this doom and gloom?

Perhaps the history of the ME might lead one to that conclusion. I suppose there's a first time for everything, but the spectacularly overwhelming odds are that we will see some sort of autocratic, theocratic, or military government in Libya.
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aerorobnz
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:28 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 65):
First nobody knows who they are

That's the point exactly, Nobody knows who they are and what they stand for - NATO just backed them to get Gaddafi out, as a common enemy - same as the Taliban were backed against the Russians in Afghanistan 1979-1988. Now look at the shit that happens there.... one man's freedom fighter/hero is another man's terrorist.

History will always repeat - it's only a matter of time and waiting long enough for collective global memory loss to kick in. Humans still have the same ambitions they did 2000 years ago, 500 years ago, or last year. As long as they stay the same the desire for power and control at any costs will always lead to the same old scenarios repeating.

This is no different from any other 'revolution'. It's about gaining power/control not about "freedom". My hopes are certainly not raised by a new bunch of revolutionaries who are prepared to fight in the way they have to knock Gaddafi off his perch.

It's not about holding a crystal ball - it's about acknowledging that nothing is really known about them, and that they should have been left to fight their own battles as a domestic civil uprising/war rather than an international exercise. If they are organised and developed enough - they will succeed anyway.
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baroque
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:36 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 66):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 65):
Don't suppose there is a reference for this doom and gloom?

Perhaps the history of the ME might lead one to that conclusion. I suppose there's a first time for everything, but the spectacularly overwhelming odds are that we will see some sort of autocratic, theocratic, or military government in Libya.

And history would have told you that Habibie, a Suharto appointee would not have a bar of a free vote for E Timor or have set in train free elections in Indonesia.

As you have no idea what the equation is for determining the future of Libya, your "spectacularly overwhelming odds" do not mean a thing. You are assuming continuity and a rebellion is a change in the status quo. Why not read what the protagonists say are their aims?

Or why not pick this possibility? A rebellion planned by the Mafia.
http://win.ru/en/win/7668.phtml

But don't worry, we all know it was a rebellion run by Al Q and that Zawahiri will soon be granted diplomatic status by the US. So everything will be OK in the end.  Wow!
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:47 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 67):
Nobody knows who they are

These "rebels" are most probably hard liner islamists.
Manipulated - just as everything else in this "anti-Khadafy" war.

How many civilians killed? There again the numbers will be falsified by NATO.

I would not be surprised if they take down Thierry Meyssan and other anti-NATO opponents.

Khadafy had the Pan Am plane brought down and Reagan bombed him as retatiation.
That was fair and just.

What is happening now is not justufied. We have no business being in Libya in this new war supporting these "rebels" who are instruments of NATO and probably much worse and more evil than Khadafy and his people.

 Wow!
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baroque
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:11 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 69):
Khadafy had the Pan Am plane brought down and Reagan bombed him as retatiation.
That was fair and just.

If you are referring to
Operation El Dorado Canyon, a 1986 United States air raid
That was 1986.
Panam
On Wednesday December 21, 1988, the aircraft flying this route — a Boeing 747–121 registered N739PA and named “Clipper Maid of the Seas” — was destroyed by a bomb, killing all 243 passengers and 16 crew members.

You do have to admit that Reagan (or was it Gaddafi) showed a hell of a lot of foresight.

Try again, please.
 
baroque
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:30 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 67):
It's not about holding a crystal ball - it's about acknowledging that nothing is really known about them, and that they should have been left to fight their own battles as a domestic civil uprising/war rather than an international exercise. If they are organised and developed enough - they will succeed anyway.

Does not strike you as a bit of a non sequitur that you can then divine what they think and what they want?

"If they are organised and developed enough - they will succeed anyway." and if they are as malevolent as some on here want to assume, might it not have been a good idea to try to make them just a tad grateful?

Most of this sounds a bit like Rummie still trying to demonstrate that Shinseki was wrong!
 
Superfly
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:38 am

Is it me or does Qaddafi look similar to Carlos Santana?

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 50):
I would be cautious with what the main stream media is feeding people. There is a lot of pro-NATO propaganda in it.

  

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 50):
It's all very obscure.

Agreed!
I see nothing to get excited about in any of this.
I'm sure Al Qada and other jihadist are jumping for joy over this. I thought we'd learned our lesson arming Jihadist in Afghanistan in the 1980s.
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aerorobnz
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:16 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 71):
Does not strike you as a bit of a non sequitur that you can then divine what they think and what they want?

Like I said - I can't predict anything, I just think planning for the worst case scenario is more realistic than hoping for the best case scenario. NATO should have stayed well clear and let Libya sort themselves out. I don't doubt a coup was necessary AT ALL but it needed to be instigated, and completed by Libyans for Libyans on their own without NATO taking sides until the coup had been won or lost or Gaddafi invaded another nation/committed an act of war against a NATO country they had no place taking part. Within a country's own borders are their own business to sort out.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 68):
But don't worry, we all know it was a rebellion run by Al Q and that Zawahiri will soon be granted diplomatic status by the US. So everything will be OK in the end.

This isn't a conspiracy theory. A.Q in all likelihood have nothing to do with anything. What I'm suggesting is that until they prove themselves capable in the fullness of time the world should have left them to their own devices in an INTERNAL civil war.
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baroque
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:47 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 73):

This isn't a conspiracy theory. A.Q in all likelihood have nothing to do with anything. What I'm suggesting is that until they prove themselves capable in the fullness of time the world should have left them to their own devices in an INTERNAL civil war.

That is one view. And another, that no doubt the spooks have been selling is that the course of the rebellion can at the least be prodded in a better direction. But then the spooks dont talk to me (either) so I don't know what their plans are or what they are based on. But do not imagine for a moment they have not been active.
 
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Revelation
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:25 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 69):
These "rebels" are most probably hard liner islamists.
Manipulated - just as everything else in this "anti-Khadafy" war.

Evidence suggests this is false.

I really dislike the automatic use of "hard line" before Muslim.

Since most of the NATO leaders are Christians, should we refer to the NATO operation as a "hard line Christian" operation?
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:32 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 50):
It's all very obscure.

Not in the slightest.   

When he was an active supporter of terrorism, he was shunned by the World. When he decided to renounce terrorism and give up whatever WMDs he had, the World, correctly, had to become his 'friend' again. Nothing unreasonable so far. Then, when the Libyan people started revolting against him and he turned the army & air force on them, the World turned against him (again).

Quoting Superfly (Reply 72):
I see nothing to get excited about in any of this.

The overthrow of a ruthless dictatorial regime is nothing to be pleased about?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 72):
I'm sure Al Qada and other jihadist are jumping for joy over this.

Quite the contrary. Al-Q's power comes from suppression of people's freedom. The so called "Arab spring" (now going on autumn) has shown people they don't need Al-Q to affect change in their lives and has marginalised Al-Q in places they would have previously seen as strongholds.
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Superfly
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:02 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 76):
The overthrow of a ruthless dictatorial regime is nothing to be pleased about?

Nope.
I'd much rather have a dictator than an Islamist fundamentalist state. If it was so important to take out Gadaffi, how come it wasn't done in 1988 after the bombing of Pan Am over Lockerbie?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 76):
The so called "Arab spring" (now going on autumn) has shown people they don't need Al-Q to affect change in their lives and has marginalised Al-Q in places they would have previously seen as strongholds.

Another violent rebellion that involved murder and raping women and assults on western news reporters. Sorry but I'm not eating up the garbage the pressing is feeding the masses.

[Edited 2011-08-23 05:08:07]
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NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:14 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 77):
Nope.
I'd much rather have a dictator than an Islamist fundamentalist state. If it was so important to take out Gadaffi, how come it wasn't done in 1988 after the bombing of Pan Am over Lockerbie?

Thank you.


If it was imperative to get rid of him we should have sent in a SEAL team and used some good intelligence. Instead of this Psuedo air strike thing that still hasn't taken him out. We don't know where he is or what is going on. Just a lot of force fed news that is unconfirmed.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:16 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 76):

Feel free to believe that all that is not reported/said by the NATO news casts about this war is conspiracy.

The herd mentality.
I don't participate in it.

We have no business being in Libya and savagely bombarding them in first place the same as we have no business being in Iraq and Afghanistan.

How many civilians killed by NATO/US bombardments?

Libya is a sovereign nation. We have no business attacking them especially in these days where our own countries could make good use of the Billions being spent on these wars.

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NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:19 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 79):
Feel free to believe that all that is not reported/said by the NATO news casts about this war is conspiracy.

Though I usually disagree with you this is correct. You are right all of this reporting has been propaganda. The Rebels do not have the control CNN is reporting. It is obvious as residents are fleeing Libya by the carload and Khadaffi is nowhere to be found and his sons are not in custody. In fact one was never captured and the other simply bolted from what it appears to be flimsy house arrest.

This is far from over.
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baroque
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:24 pm

Should anyone wish to listen to someone who just could know what the rebs aims are either listen or read the transcript at:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3299587.htm
Ali Aujali is the diplomatic representative for Libya's National Transitional Council in Washington after defecting from Moamar Gaddafi's regime in February.
....
ALI MOORE: The rebel forces are a very disparate group, aren't they? I mean, they're made up of former government ministers who have defected, of long-time opposition figures - there's a whole range of political views. How much do they have in common beyond getting rid of Gaddafi?

ALI AUJALI: We have in common all the Libyans including the TNC that we establish a democratic country in North Africa, to join the democratic international community. This is the most urgent issue for us.

We want people to enjoy their wealth, which Gaddafi and his family been enjoying it for more than four decades.

We want security, we want our dreams to come true, we want to enjoy democracy, we want to enjoy freedom of speech, we want to observe human rights, we want to have a good international relations, smooth relation with the world.

The Libyan diplomat, they suffer for the last 42 years. You don't know how much we are under pressure. We have a most critical and tough job ever diplomat can carry.

And this is what they want. The young Libyan people, they sacrifice their lives for the democracy. They want to see their children enjoy this which unfortunate my generation was not succeed to get rid of Gaddafi. There many sacrifice, but unfortunately they were not enough to get rid of this ugly regime.

ALI MOORE: At the same time though, and I guess we have seen it over the last couple of months, as I said, this is a very disparate group and there is a very broad range of views - the secularists, the socialists, the Islamists, the business people.

How difficult is it going to be to keep everyone together united with a single purpose now that you've achieved the goal, or appear to have achieved the goal, of getting rid of Gaddafi?

ALI AUJALI: No, I don't - I cannot really agree with you to say they are disparate. They are not disparate.

This is what we want to see in Libya: diversity among our society. We've been ruled by Gaddafi, by one mind, by one theory, by one thoughts, by one man. This is have to be changed, the socialists, the Islamists, the (inaudible) - all of them, they must participate to build the Libyan society. Also there was a section on the role of NATO.

That's what we want to do. This is why Libya is backward, this is why Libya they don't enjoy their wealth, because we have only one man, he decide our future, he can put you out and he can put you down. That's the era of this regime is over.
....
What happens next? When does the Transitional Council, or how quickly can the Transitional Council, actually set up the structures of government?

ALI AUJALI: They have a road map now. After Tripoli now has been controlled by the revolutionaries, now the TNC, they have to go through Tripoli, they have the draft of the Constitution, they have to elect a conference, they have to elect the - set up the system to make the ready country for the election.

Then we have the road map and the draft constitution which is really put in details what we should do. And I have a great trust in the TNC. They are very honest people. They are very well-organise.


In the broadcast version was a substantial discussion of tribalism and how Libya differs from Iraq. But it seems not to be there in the transcript.
 
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scbriml
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:53 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 77):
Nope.
I'd much rather have a dictator than an Islamist fundamentalist state.

But it's not your or my choice, is it? If that's what the Libyan people want, then that's their choice. I've yet to see any evidence that the civil uprisings across North Africa and the Middle-East are led by any Islamic fundamentalist groups.


Quoting Superfly (Reply 77):
Another violent rebellion that involved murder and raping women and assults on western news reporters.

Name one conflict where this hasn't happened?

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 79):
How many civilians killed by NATO/US bombardments?

I'd imagine significantly less than the number killed by Gadaffi himself. Doesn't make it right, but you'd have to ask the Libyan people if that's a price they're prepared to pay. It seems the majority feel it is.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 79):
Libya is a sovereign nation. We have no business attacking them

UN resolution 1973 refers - Libya, per se, is not being attacked, just the Gadaffi regime in order to protect Libyan civilians:
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2011/sc10200.doc.htm

Quote:
Adopting resolution 1973 (2011) by a vote of 10 in favour to none against, with 5 abstentions (Brazil, China, Germany, India, Russian Federation), the Council authorized Member States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to take all necessary measures to protect civilians under threat of attack in the country, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:01 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 82):
But it's not your or my choice, is it?

It's our choice to to not get involved. I'll make sure to vote against Obama for getting us in this conflict.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 82):
Name one conflict where this hasn't happened?

Can't think of any widespread rapings in the United States during our fights for labor unions, civil rights, protest against the Vietnam war.
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:04 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 82):
If that's what the Libyan people want

How do you know?
By listening only to one side of the story, the Sarkozy, Merkel, Obama and Cameron plus a few others.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 82):
I'd imagine significantly less than the number killed by Gadaffi himself.

Again this is your assertion - not the absolute truth.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 82):
just the Gadaffi regime in order to protect Libyan civilians:

Again more NATO propaganda.
Only one side of the story.

Does not take into account what the other side has to say.

So according to you, NATO/US forces can crush and bombard Libya for as much as they want and they reach their objectives and targets?? This is exactly what they are doing right now.

It's criminal.
Khadafy has not attacked directly any of the NATO countries.
Say what you will It's the NATO countries who are the aggressors this can't be denied.

 Wow!
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NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:11 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 82):
I've yet to see any evidence that the civil uprisings across North Africa and the Middle-East are led by any Islamic fundamentalist groups.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0...s-among-libya-rebels_n_837894.html


As much as everyone including CNN wants to propagate the notion that its the people of Tripoli who are rising up and want to be free the fact is it's a tribal thing going on and some (not atll) of the anti Khadaffi forces do not like the US. It's not even an issue really.
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Acheron
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:33 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 62):
Of course the Indonesian way is different but that is the point, you think you can draw equivalences between countries that simply are not valid.

But is Indonesia within the sphere of influence of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Hamas, Hizbollah, Iran and Syria??

Quoting Baroque (Reply 62):
And as to Indonesia not containing groups that are similar to tribal groups  

And how many of those "tribal" groups are islamic fundamentalists and what are the chances of getting government spots compared to, say, Pakistan?.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 62):
For a start, the rebels say they will not.

I'm sure they are quite trustworthy...as much as Gaddafi's forces.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 61):
And the result is that he has kept Turkey a moderate, secular state.

Out of convenience and necessity rather than his own will. Which is a bit evident judging by the sort of news coming out of Turkey lately which was a bit unheard of before him.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 61):
About pulling a "Saudi Arabia" I doubt it. It´s not in the interests of his country both current ones and future ones.

Might not be in the country's interest, but when has a politician always had the interests of its country in mind?.
His need to piss off Israel, one of Turkey's biggest partners, by backing suicidal flotillas which everybody knows won't end well, suggest otherwise.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 61):
Yes, well, and if I had crystal ball I could be a millionaire by now.

You don't need a crystal ball to see the possibility of things like what I mention happening, specially given the recent history of the area.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 62):
l you have to support your doom and gloom view is a bit of arm waving and a few lines rewritten from "We'll all be rooned said Hanrahan".

Hmm, I guess Saudi Arabia backing every movement out there that helps spread wahhabi fundamentalism by whatever means necessary and Iran's need to back any group that opposes Israel and the west (which usually tend to be either islamic fundies or just good ol' pan-arabian terrorists and warmongers), is considered just "arm waving".

Either that, or just another Lybian general getting tired of the new government of Lybia "bending over to the west/US/EU and NATO", staging a coup to "recover the dignity of the Lybian people and government" by impossing another autocratic regime.
That hasn't happened before at all, right?.

Or the rebels, after they finally get rid of Gaddafi and the "Rally around the flag" effect wears out, start bickering among themselves leading to another civil war. Thats why the rebels can say whatever they want in interviews, which doesn't mean it is what will happen once everything is said and done.

Like I said, as much as I'd like to share your optimism, the dynamics of the region and its modern history suggest otherwise.
 
baroque
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:45 pm

Ah, so now we know the critical factor without which a revolt is illegitimate, you must "like the US". How about elections, would we (in Aus) be allowed to elect a government that did not like the US. Well, we probably know the answer.

But what happens when the US appoints someone who it thinks "likes the US"?

The US barrels with an army into Iraq sets up a constitution it approves of, runs its own elections and puts in its own puppets, and really when they get on the ground, said puppets do not particularly like the US. And one explanation of the awful situation of Afghanistan ten (10) years on, is that the US puppet government of Karzai seems worse than the Taliban. Which gives an idea of how awful the Karzai government must be.

You just cannot get the quality of Quislings these days.

Or you just try and assist the rebels in Libya and put out an expectation that they will be better than Ghaddafi. You never know, the stories of the revolt being run by extremists might just be as wrong as those in the rebellion say it is. See this reference.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3299587.htm
 
NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:46 pm

CNN reporting they have captured the Khadaffi compound. No word on if he is present or his sons.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:06 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 88):
CNN reporting they have captured the Khadaffi compound. No word on if he is present or his sons.

Probably false news the same as yesterday's claiming.

I am watching live images from Tripoli with sounds of artillery shelling direct from the street. The trouble is that the forum won't allow the link.

http ://rt.c o m/o n-ai r/li bya-tr ip oli-re bels-gr een-sq uare /

Lots of AllahuAqbar and shelling

I dont know if this is the Mujahidin side or the Khadafy supporters side.
Wish I could understand Arabic!

 
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NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:08 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 89):
Probably false news the same as yesterday's claiming.

It does look like they may have made entry. Are rifling through medical records and other stuff but looks like nobody was home which is to be expected.
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CometII
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:08 pm

Al Jazeera has a reporter in the compound confirming reports by the rebels, AP, Reuters.
 
airtran737
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:42 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 89):
Probably false news the same as yesterday's claiming.

Looks like you are wrong on this one. CNN has a reporter walking through the compound.
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CometII
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:44 pm

Video is now on CNN of rebels and even civilians walking freely in the compound.

Additionaly Al Arabiya is saying the rebels have reached the more hidden rooms and bunkers and are searching room by room.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:50 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 92):
Looks like you are wrong on this one. CNN has a reporter walking through the compound.

Even if they entered the compound (probably looting it the same as they looted the hotel where the foreign reporters are staying) I very much doubt they will find the Khadafys in there.

 

Libya : Tripoli Green Square Today [22-07-2011] with a little local flavour added

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAkw44Su-dk

[Edited 2011-08-23 09:53:29]
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travelavnut
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:35 pm

That CNN reporter in the compound is a machine! Guns blazing all around, she's visibly scared shitless, but still reporting like a warrior, mucho kudos!
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GDB
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:59 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 53):
And?
There are plenty of less-than-stellar regimes that are quite friendly with the west, which makes this whole "we bombed them because he was an evil dictator" a BS argument, in my opinion.

By the way, didn't some irish-american citizens living in the US provide funding for IRA as well?. How many people went to jail for that?.

Some did, the FBI busted a few smuggling rings, though no terrorists on the run in the US were ever extradited.
How do you not know he helped ETA? He spoke in support of them. He aided just about every other terror group in his time, have the same attitude if that WAS the case?
Gaddafi, in the mid 80's, effectively supplanted ignorant and deluded fools in the US when it came to arming the IRA, to a far greater extent than they ever had been supplied before.
If you used civil aviation from the 1970's to the 1990's, the activities of Gaddafi put you at more risk than had he never seized power.

His 'diplomats' in London sprayed sub machine gun fire from their embassy in 1984, at a small and entirely peaceful demo against his regime, a female police officer was killed.
He only stopped doing this shit when it became too dangerous, including economically, for his regime.
He did worry about extremist Islamists in the wake of Sept 11th too, but then so did Iran for a time.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:54 pm

He took them all by surprise.

Libyan war Reblle strong-held Benghazi shocked by Saif appearance 23/08/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQGu5jcOkgM

 


Kucinich: NATO Commanders Should Be Prosecuted By International Criminal Court

With the military intervention in Libya winding down, Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) thinks it's time to consider criminal charges against not just Muammar Qaddafi and his forces, but against NATO's top commanders as well.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/kucin...riminal-court-2011-8#ixzz1VscO1bUx


 


British brains, brawn and bombs bolster Libyan rebels

Britain’s MI6 officers have been engaged in drilling Libyan rebels, helping them to establish a proper military plan for an assault on the capitol Tripoli.

­On Tuesday, British newspapers revealed that the UK not only detached spies and former SAS gurus to train militants, but was also providing them with ammunition for the operation, including night-vision goggles, advanced communication equipment and no less than 1,000 sets of body armor.

more here
http://rt.com/news/british-train-libyan-rebels-975-70939-939/

 Embarrassment

[Edited 2011-08-23 12:04:18]
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scbriml
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:34 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 83):
I'll make sure to vote against Obama for getting us in this conflict.

Did you vote for him first time round?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 83):
Can't think of any widespread rapings in the United States during our fights for labor unions, civil rights, protest against the Vietnam war.

You're comparing civil unrest and protest in the US with a civil-war in North Africa?  Wow!
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 84):
How do you know?

Read what I said - "if it's what the Libyan people want". Same question to you, how do you know?

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 84):
Again this is your assertion - not the absolute truth.

I never claimed absolute knowledge or truth, but you seem to be.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 84):
So according to you, NATO/US forces can crush and bombard Libya for as much as they want and they reach their objectives and targets?? This is exactly what they are doing right now.

No, read the UN resolution.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 84):
It's criminal.

Technically it's not. NATO is acting under mandate from the UN.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 85):
some (not atll) of the anti Khadaffi forces do not like the US

There's people who don't like the US (more realistically, US policy) all over the World! Still, as you say, it's not an issue.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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MadameConcorde
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:47 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 98):
NATO is acting under mandate from the UN.

The UN can be wrong and in this case they are.

So are Sarlozy, Cameron,Obama, Merkel, Berlusconi and all the other heads of state implicated in this war.

They have no business bombarding Libya and supporting the "rebels" (mujahidins). They have no business trying to take Khadafy down. All that time and money spent attacking Libya and they have failed.

It would do you good to investigate what's on the other side. Khadafy's government is legitimate whether the UN/NATO likes it or not.
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