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kaitak
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History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:37 pm

Sky is now reporting that Seif Al-Islam Gadaffi, Col. Gadaffi's elder son and heir apparent, has been captured. Rebel troops are moving into the city centre, apparently to quite an enthusiastic welcome.

There is still heavy fighting going on - and no sign of the colonel himself.

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16053951

Tick tock, tick tock ... the time is running out for Gadaffi. The shape of the next regime is still hard to see, but whatever it is, Gadaffi will not be part. Let's hope that things go well for Libya and it does not become another Iraq. There is unfortunately potential for continued conflict, with lots of tribes vying for power - some close to the old regime, but tonight, the Libyan people are celebrating what looks like the imminent end of the Gadaffi regime.
 
NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:51 pm

I am not too confident anything good will happen in Libya as we have seen nothing change in Egypt in fact now Israel-Arab relations are falling apart but he has to go. In a box preferably.

IMO he will be having coffee with Chavez by tomorrow night.
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QANTAS077
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:52 pm

bit hard for him to get out when there is a no-fly zone.
 
1stfl94
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:56 pm

I don't see this ending soon. Gaddafi won't give up without a fight and this could turn pretty nasty. Even if he does go there is going to be a big power vacuum to fill, plenty of pro Gaddafi supporters still out there and a lot of resources to fight over.
 
NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:59 pm

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 2):
bit hard for him to get out when there is a no-fly zone.

There isn't a no-fly zone over Tunisia

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 3):
Gaddafi won't give up without a fight and this could turn pretty nasty. Even if he does go there is going to be a big power vacuum to fill, plenty of pro Gaddafi supporters still out there and a lot of resources to fight over.

I think he is a coward and has an exit plan to get to Tunisia if he knows he can't hold the rebels back. As for who replaces him it won't be much better. You will just get somebody who doesn't dress and act nuts but politically I don't see much changing.
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QANTAS077
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:08 pm

Rebels hold the west of Libya, highly unlikely he would even make it to Tunisia.

[Edited 2011-08-21 15:11:17]
 
NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:17 pm

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 5):
Rebels hold the west of Libya, highly unlikely he would even make it to Tunisia.

His wife and daughter got out easily. To be honest I am getting the impression he isn't even in Tripoli.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:17 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 4):
There isn't a no-fly zone over Tunisia

He'd have to leave Tripoli by car and rebels will surely capture him. I don't think there's an underground tunnel linking Tunis and Tripoli. There's a naval blockade off the Libyan coast. What other method is there if not flying?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 4):
I think he is a coward and has an exit plan to get to Tunisia if he knows he can't hold the rebels back.

I'd believe this if Tunisia had not recognized the rebels...but they have. So if Gaddafi exits to Tunisia, I'd be willing to bet that Tunisia might just arrest him or deny him entry. I'd see him veering more towards Chavez. How he'll reach Venezuela is a different matter entirely.
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NoUFO
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:20 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 4):
I think he is a coward and has an exit plan to get to Tunisia

Tunisia? The same Tunisia where the Arab rebellion started? I guess Algeria would be a lot more likely.
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NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:39 pm

AP just tweeted something cryptic. Something about Khadaffi may have surrendered but has military protecting him.

BREAKING: Libyan rebel leader says top military unit in charge of protecting Gadhafi has surrendered. -EF #libya -EF
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racko
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:01 pm

Good Riddance Gaddafi.

[Edited 2011-08-21 16:02:51]
 
Mir
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:06 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
IMO he will be having coffee with Chavez by tomorrow night.

If it gets him out of the country and out of power, fine by me - that's what most important. But it looks like he's going to have more issues than that.

-Mir
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mham001
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:16 pm

Just one more step in one of the great foeign policy blunders of our time.
 
NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:20 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
If it gets him out of the country and out of power, fine by me - that's what most important. But it looks like he's going to have more issues than that.



Getting him out of power does nothing. You think whomever takes over is going to be much different?

I want him pushing up daisies for the Americans he has killed. Period.
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lhr380
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:25 pm

Been watching it in the Pub in the Green Man most of the evening when it was saying they were on the outskirts, and by the time I got home, they are in the city centre. Now lets see what happens to Gaddafi....
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Braybuddy
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:03 am

Great news for the rebels! Glued to the BBC online coverage here. I'm hearing now that a second of Gadaffi's sons has been captured. One of those great nights where history is being made! No doubt it's being monitored carefully in Syria and Assad is now weighing-up his options.
 
Mir
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:47 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
You think whomever takes over is going to be much different?

Yup. Gadaffi was in the Kim Jong-Il category of tyrannical nutcase. Those don't grow on trees.

-Mir
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GDB
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:52 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 12):
Just one more step in one of the great foeign policy blunders of our time.

Doubt that most in Libya would agree.

No Western troops on the ground to get sucked into a quagmire for s start, Iraq WAS the great foreign policy blunder of our time.

Difficult times ahead for Libya most likely, removing a near 42 year old regime, of the worst personality cult type, will leave a vacuum.
Still, it's so easy for us in stable democratic nations to have no idea what living under such a regime is like.
Makes us rather spoiled perhaps?
 
PPVRA
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:00 am

Great stuff. The Libyan people have learned quite a bit over the last few decades, there is reason to remain positive about what comes next.
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NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:14 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
Yup. Gadaffi was in the Kim Jong-Il category of tyrannical nutcase.

Not even close.

Libya has multiple radio, newspaper and television stations. Both state and privately owned.

North Korea is all state controlled and in fact any radio or TV has to be checked by the state.

In Libya you can have cell phones.

In North Korea you can't.

In Libya you can have internet in North Korea you have to go to cafes and it's all censored by the state.

Libya's GDP is much better than North Korea whos per capita is 4000 dollars.


So if you want to say Khadaffi was bad that is fine but to compare him to Kim Jong you are simply wrong.
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mham001
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:22 am

Kim Jong was not stupid enough to listen to promises from the West and give up his nuclear program.

After the Kadaffi example, neither will the next tyrant.
 
Geezer
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:37 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
I want him pushing up daisies for the Americans he has killed. Period.

My sentiments exactly...............preferably at the end of a rope.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 15):
No doubt it's being monitored carefully in Syria and Assad is now weighing-up his options.

Ditto for Assad; Hey, maybe they could make it a "double header" ?

Charley
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ltbewr
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:12 am

How much longer would Gadaffi have lived anyway? He is not a young man anymore. I hope he and his sons all get a one-way ticket to Islamic hell soon. Too many dictators live too long and are too terrible to their own people that eventually we hope they end up painfully killed.

There is of course a serious problem with these rebels, as to how they will rule and their attitudes to Europe and the USA and how they will deal with the oil there. I hope Italy who has had long ties there has a part in the revision of the country to bring about a more democratic run country. I wouldn't be surprised they get nice with China especially over oil sales.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:36 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
I want him pushing up daisies for the Americans he has killed. Period.

Yeah, that will fix everything, NOT.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):
I hope Italy who has had long ties there has a part in the revision of the country to bring about a more democratic run country.

Oh yes of course, a beacon on the horizon, for all to follow. Italy, a democratic country with Berlusconi ruling a bunch of corrupt clowns.

The mind boggles.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):
I wouldn't be surprised they get nice with China especially over oil sales.

And what about the "western" world ?
Forget about China, what about France, Germany, Spain and the US itself buys 5% annually.

Funny that the US hasn't had a problem with this in the past.
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NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:01 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
Yeah, that will fix everything, NOT.

I know but it will avenge the people on PA103. Nothing is going to change in Libya. It's tribal and the same stuff will go on. Never said I wanted him dead to fix anything. At this point we may as well just sit back because all sorts of hell will break loose in the ME. It was inevetiable.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
Oh yes of course, a beacon on the horizon, for all to follow. Italy, a democratic country with Berlusconi ruling a bunch of corrupt clowns.

At least he picks hotter chicks than our presidents. I mean really Clinton Monica Lewinski?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
And what about the "western" world ?
Forget about China, what about France, Germany, Spain and the US itself buys 5% annually.

Funny that the US hasn't had a problem with this in the past.

Especially since we don't get any from them.
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:08 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 19):
So if you want to say Khadaffi was bad that is fine but to compare him to Kim Jong you are simply wrong.

To me, oppression is oppression. To say that Ghadaffi "wasnt as bad" as Kim Jong Il, is as ridiculous as saying As Hitler wasn't as bad as Khmer Rouge or Ho Chi Minh. Because Libya may have been more receptive to the west really was only because he had something that west wanted, oil. He may not have had the grip on his people tha KJI had, doesn't mean he wasn't as ruthless. Speaking out against Ghadaffi would be met with the same fate as speaking out against KJI
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AR385
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:12 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 7):
I'd see him veering more towards Chavez. How he'll reach Venezuela is a different matter entirely.

Chavez is a baboon, but not a stupid baboon. No way now, with all the troubles his country is facing and himself gravely ill, will he risk a confrontation by offering Gadaffi asylum. Even the most leftist of Latin American regimes will turn his back on him.

Gadaffi needs to be put on trial for the downing of PA 103 and the UTA DC-10 plane.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 7):
I don't think there's an underground tunnel linking Tunis and Tripoli. There's a naval blockade off the Libyan coast.

You´d be surprised. Gadaffi has built an extensive network of tunnels all around Lybia, ostensibly for waterworks. I wouldn´t be surprised if those tunnels lead to some refuge

The latest I´ve read is that his compund is now under siege and that his three most important sons have already surrendered. However, there´s still a lot of gunshots and explosions heard going on all over Tripoli.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
as we have seen nothing change in Egypt in fact now Israel-Arab relations are falling apart

There´s been a lot of change in Egypt, slow but things have changed. And the recent trouble with Israels was not Egypt´s fault.
 
NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:13 am

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 25):
To me, oppression is oppression. To say that Ghadaffi "wasnt as bad" as Kim Jong Il, is as ridiculous as saying As Hitler wasn't as bad as Khmer Rouge or Ho Chi Minh. Because Libya may have been more receptive to the west really was only because he had something that west wanted, oil. He may not have had the grip on his people tha KJI had, doesn't mean he wasn't as ruthless. Speaking out against Ghadaffi would be met with the same fate as speaking out against KJI

Great so are we headed to Syria and the Sudan next? This was only done because Khadaffi was more of a terrorist than a ruthless dictator and murderer of his own people. Was he a dictator? Sure but Libya's problems are more rooted in their tribalism not the fact they had some guy who was as nuts as Kim Jong Il. You are still going to have a huge power struggle here.
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mham001
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:21 am

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 25):
Speaking out against Ghadaffi would be met with the same fate as speaking out against KJI

That is what we have been led to believe but is wildly overstated. His reputation for oppression came from an attempt to kill him which led to mass jailing of Islamic radicals intent on setting up another Islamic state. He recently opened up the jail doors and made peace with that group. At no point do we have credible evidence of 'horrific' oppression such as what you might find in Syria, for example.
 
baroque
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:28 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 17):
Doubt that most in Libya would agree.

You must remember four legs good, two legs bad GDB! And de Nile may not flow through Libya, but it surely flows through a.net.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
Yeah, that will fix everything, NOT.

         I believe humble pies may now available in two main types, there is the Iraqi flowers and sweets flavoured one already on sale (with sub-flavours of your choice from Shia, Sunni, Kurd and Turkmen), and soon to be offered is the Libya minimum intervention pie. The marketing branch indicate that there is a considerable need for their consumption but that few will bite.

Well done the Libyans. Sorting power out in a new Libya will be difficult, let us hope that the extremists do not take it. Those expecting an immediate installation of AlQ seem to forget that the Libyan revolution has done exactly what AlQ wanted but failed so signally to achieve. The revolutions are competition for AlQ.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 26):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 7):
I'd see him veering more towards Chavez. How he'll reach Venezuela is a different matter entirely.

Chavez is a baboon, but not a stupid baboon. No way now, with all the troubles his country is facing and himself gravely ill, will he risk a confrontation by offering Gadaffi asylum. Even the most leftist of Latin American regimes will turn his back on him.

Nicely put, but do not worry about it AR385, those in the US who rave on about leftists evidently have no understanding that no real leftie would not touch Col G with bargepole.
 
Acheron
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:10 am

Another country at risk of falling in the hands of Islamic nutjobs, though in this case the previous nutjobs also played with bombs, so won't make much of difference.
 
airtran737
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:58 am

My hope for the new Libya is they the NATO members who have helped the rebels take over, will now help them rebuild. I also hope that the new Libyan government shuns China and Russia for not helping their cause.
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BN747
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:58 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
I am not too confident anything good will happen in Libya as we have seen nothing change in Egypt

This is amazing, Tunisia, Egypt and now Libya vs the debacle known as Iraq .. engineered their paths to self-determination - something conservatives always insist on 'let them solve their own problems (as in the Somalia thread) and when they do.. all that can be coughed up is 'I'm not confident anything good will happen'..

I'm sure if Bush had lorded over these changes the cheers would be through the roof from conservative corners of how he's spreading democracy... this CANNOT be seen as smart Obama foreign policy handling no matter what? But above that.. here are people getting slaughtered and taking on well trained armies and ...winning. They may end up as the next Iran, so what..we're not friends with Iran as it is and we aren't in great hugs with others either. But it could just as easily go the other way. The change in Libya may not do nothing for you naysayers...but as of now, it is these types of astonishing achievements that lend great hope those waiting over in Syria and who knows who will be next. I for one think the trend is moving in the right direction - they may not select 'western style democracy, but that choice is theirs . If we don't like their choice too bad. But as now, this is their moment - they've done what the most skeptical Americans have said they should do, and for some even that is never enough.

BN747
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baroque
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:35 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 32):
This is amazing, Tunisia, Egypt and now Libya vs the debacle known as Iraq .. engineered their paths to self-determination - something conservatives always insist on 'let them solve their own problems (as in the Somalia thread) and when they do.. all that can be coughed up is 'I'm not confident anything good will happen'..

I'm sure if Bush had lorded over these changes the cheers would be through the roof from conservative corners of how he's spreading democracy... this CANNOT be seen as smart Obama foreign policy handling no matter what? But above that.. here are people getting slaughtered and taking on well trained armies and ...winning. They may end up as the next Iran, so what..we're not friends with Iran as it is and we aren't in great hugs with others either. But it could just as easily go the other way. The change in Libya may not do nothing for you naysayers...but as of now, it is these types of astonishing achievements that lend great hope those waiting over in Syria and who knows who will be next. I for one think the trend is moving in the right direction - they may not select 'western style democracy, but that choice is theirs . If we don't like their choice too bad. But as now, this is their moment - they've done what the most skeptical Americans have said they should do, and for some even that is never enough.

Exactly. Folk have been warbling on about getting rid of G and now it happens, "Oh woe is us". The new regime could be even worse, but there has to be an excellent chance it will be a whole lot better. There is quite a large educated population in Libya which gives hope that they might get a better regime.

It is not that dissimilar to reaction back in the 1970s when Libya nationalized parts of its oil industry and the great joke was along the lines of "those idiots will not be able to run the production facility and with the cold desert nights and the waxy nature of the crude, Libya would soon be the proud owners of the world's longest candle". Well it just did not happen. And so it may well be with the political situation, could go bad, but more likely just will not happen.

For a start, the rebs seem to be handing the Gaddafis over to the Hague, and not rushing out to re-enact the Tyburn jig. Just that is a great start to depart from the Iraqi "model".
 
Rara
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:47 am

Finally - the faster he's gone, the better.

Still, I'm very pessimistic about Libya's future. The reason why Ghaddafi managed to stay in power for so long is that many, many people in Libya were fine with him. These people will probably be a lot worse off in the future. What we've seems from the "rebels" so far doesn't really lend a lot of hope to their statesmanship.

Fingers crossed though.
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Pyrex
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:30 am

Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:34 am

Very little concrete news, but it seems rebels are consolidating their hold on Tripoli street by street.

Time magazine shoujld have no problem in picking their Man of the Year 2011: Mohamed Bouazizi, the Tunisian street trader who set himself on fire in Sidi Bou Said last December, sparking the Tunisian revolution, which in turn set in train the Arab Spring.
 
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Revelation
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:45 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 32):
This is amazing, Tunisia, Egypt and now Libya vs the debacle known as Iraq .. engineered their paths to self-determination - something conservatives always insist on 'let them solve their own problems (as in the Somalia thread) and when they do.. all that can be coughed up is 'I'm not confident anything good will happen'..

I'm sure if Bush had lorded over these changes the cheers would be through the roof from conservative corners of how he's spreading democracy... this CANNOT be seen as smart Obama foreign policy handling no matter what? But above that.. here are people getting slaughtered and taking on well trained armies and ...winning.

  

Looking at all the disappointment on the part of the conservatives over these events, the conclusion I reach is that when they talk of spreading democracy, they really mean spreading corporate capitalism, and since that's not happening in this case, they are upset.

They're happy with Iraq since they've gotten a solid decade of corporate suckling on the governmental teat, most of it off-budget too!

Never mind the cost in American lives, those people are a new generation of patriots that can be used to glorify future wars.

Here we have a case where we minimized our involvement and thus American dollars and American lives and we've given people an opportunity to have democracy. You'd think they'd be rejoicing in the halls of Conservatism, but instead we hear grousing. Again it leads me to believe the reason why is we don't have some sort of US-appointed "interim president" guiding the formation of a US-friendly government that will give huge resource and reconstruction contracts to the corporate giants.
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NIKV69
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:01 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 26):
Gadaffi needs to be put on trial for the downing of PA 103 and the UTA DC-10 plane.

That ship has sailed he paid off the families for that.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 26):
There´s been a lot of change in Egypt, slow but things have changed. And the recent trouble with Israels was not Egypt´s fault.

There is still a huge power struggle going on and nobody knows who is doing what. What we do know is some are not for peace with Israel.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 32):
This is amazing, Tunisia, Egypt and now Libya vs the debacle known as Iraq .. engineered their paths to self-determination - something conservatives always insist on 'let them solve their own problems (as in the Somalia thread) and when they do.. all that can be coughed up is 'I'm not confident anything good will happen'..

Nothing has been solved. Libya still has two tribes that will be locked in a power struggle. Not sure why you are injecting a partisan rant here but I won't be baited into it.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 32):
I'm sure if Bush had lorded over these changes the cheers would be through the roof from conservative corners of how he's spreading democracy... this CANNOT be seen as smart Obama foreign policy handling no matter what?

Who said this? Again we don't need a I hate Bush rant here.
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na
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:59 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 34):
What we've seems from the "rebels" so far doesn't really lend a lot of hope to their statesmanship.

Indeed the sad thing is that Libya has no structure to build a proper democratic state on. But there is no alternative to lay the foundations to that over the next years, even if there a lots of spaces for extremists to step in. Thank god stoneage muslim extremists do not have a strong followership in Libya.
 
BN747
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime End

Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:25 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 38):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 32):
This is amazing, Tunisia, Egypt and now Libya vs the debacle known as Iraq .. engineered their paths to self-determination - something conservatives always insist on 'let them solve their own problems (as in the Somalia thread) and when they do.. all that can be coughed up is 'I'm not confident anything good will happen'..

Nothing has been solved. Libya still has two tribes that will be locked in a power struggle. Not sure why you are injecting a partisan rant here but I won't be baited into it.

A lot has been solved. 3 nations now have freed themselves from decades long tyranny. Wasn't 'tyranny' one of the key terms you conservatives uttered endlessly during massive outcry of blind support of the ill-conceived Iraq debacle? Libya is being done it in the way the 'we shouldn't help anyone (except who-our-Republican-leader-may-be-at-the-time) types would like to see it done...minimal US involvement. It's a good thing such expressed hesitancy, discouragement is not expressed by current American leadership because it would completely diminish any hope in Syria and which ever nation may be next. Obamas' words (and actions) have played an unquestionably vital role in the Syrian uprising and it's endurance to this point of critical mass. And it apparently won't stop in Syria.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 38):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 32):
I'm sure if Bush had lorded over these changes the cheers would be through the roof from conservative corners of how he's spreading democracy... this CANNOT be seen as smart Obama foreign policy handling no matter what?

Who said this? Again we don't need a I hate Bush rant here.

Who said this?... a quick search of 'attitudes' expressed (here on A.net) amid the Iraq takeover compared to attitudes expressed here today (by the very same people) is saying 'exactly' that! The comparison of Libya, Eoypt, Tunisia vs Iraq is indeed the perfect example if one ever existed. This is backed up by comments constant jabbs of ' he didn't let Libya stop him from getting us into another war..' "look at him in Libya", "why are we in Libya...?" ...any of it sound familiar? Over in the Somali thread, it's all ..."let 'em fend for themselves"....and here with Libya, they are doing exactly that, and look at the 'negative attitudes' still being tossed about! It proves certain mindsets aren't to be trusted or believed.. if any type of 'political differential' can be discerned or associated with this (Libya) or any other action. Not a person here could deny 'the would-be-howls heard here from conservatives' were a Republican President in power right now. But since one is not, no support of this President by the same group of people, can be uttered because it would be to go against the official Republican Party line 'of supporting Obama at all'. It's interesting to see US conservatives trying to drain the 'hope' out of this situation, doing their best to dampen the optimism of this occurrence. The political prism in which this situation is being viewed is the diving force behind such comments. Comments made by conservatives during Iraq, compared to the same group of you here today .. bear that to be true. "Who said that?" .. the comments speak for themselves. Loudly and clearly.


BN747

[Edited 2011-08-22 07:32:42]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Acheron
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:48 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
3 nations now have freed themselves from decades long tyranny.

Which, most likely than not, will end up turning themselves into islamic theocracies.
 
baroque
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:10 pm

Perhaps the most recent major Islamic country to self-liberate itself from a dictator would be Indonesia. I have not noticed that it is a theocracy. It does have a department of religion, but it always did have. Before that Iran. So that is 50:50. Why the pessimism. Arguably Libya will learn more from Indonesia than from Iran. But then we just know Iran is waiting to hoover up all these gullible Arabs. After all the Iranians are Arabs too, oh, wait, no they are not.

And is Libya likely to fall to AlQ lead currently by an Egyptian, probably another "no no".

Pity these brilliant strategists about Arab politics were not more influential before Iraq was invaded.   
 
AR385
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:36 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 41):
Which, most likely than not, will end up turning themselves into islamic theocracies.

You have no basis for which to say that. Besides, those countires you mention are looking at Tukey´s model, whom a few years ago many thought would become the next Saudi Arabia when Erdogan came to power. And even though he has ocassionally played up the Islamists side for politic´s sake, he is a moderate and has finally removed the ever threatening military that for years considered themselves the watchers of secularity.

The truth is, the Islamic world is as tired of secular tyrannies as it is of Islamist theocratic tyrannies. Most likely, they will find a middle way, through democracy. It will probably take time, and a few setbacks maybe, but I see them moving forwards, not backwards, like Pakistan or Afghanistan, which in reality has never moved forward.

Next one to come, Iran, and that one´s going to be bloody, worst than Syria.
 
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Revelation
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:51 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
A lot has been solved. 3 nations now have freed themselves from decades long tyranny. Wasn't 'tyranny' one of the key terms you conservatives uttered endlessly during massive outcry of blind support of the ill-conceived Iraq debacle?

Nope, it's not considered solved till businesses like Halliburton, Bechtel, Lockheed-Martin et all are making major profits rebuiding and resupplying the new regime, and till Western companies have secured the oil contracts and till we see McDonalds and Wal*Mart springing up in every city in the land.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
Who said this?... a quick search of 'attitudes' expressed (here on A.net) amid the Iraq takeover compared to attitudes expressed here today (by the very same people) is saying 'exactly' that!

I agree.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
GDB
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:01 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 28):
That is what we have been led to believe but is wildly overstated. His reputation for oppression came from an attempt to kill him which led to mass jailing of Islamic radicals intent on setting up another Islamic state. He recently opened up the jail doors and made peace with that group. At no point do we have credible evidence of 'horrific' oppression such as what you might find in Syria, for example.

There has been decades of 'credible evidence' of his brutal misdeeds, his very generous support for all manner of terrorists for a start, maybe that did not register in your part of the world, but his effective re-arming of the IRA certainly did here.
Proof? Shipments from Libya were busted, he also boasted about it.

PA103? I'm of an open mind and with the imminent collapse of his regime at hand, soon we may know for sure.
Even some relatives of those killed on PA103 were far from certain the right man was convicted, all a bit murky and other states at the time who encouraged, support, facilitated attacks on civil airliners at the time also included Iran and Syria.

The man fell out with all his neighbours, saw himself as some kind of leader of the Arab world, when that was rejected, of Africa.
All his regime gave to the world for decades was terror.
He only stopped when, likely advised by his sons, he had to end the crippling sanctions. Though before and after those what should have been one of the wealthiest, most developed states in the region, was already mired in the kleptomaniac brutality of Gaddafi and sons.

Had he not unleashed massive force, indiscriminately, against his own people 6 months ago, leading to the UN resolution, he'd not be in the position he is now.

Defend his regime all you like, here's an idea, once it's safe to do so, go to Libya and extol the virtues of the Gaddafi's, make quite a You Tube moment.
 
comorin
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:59 pm

I'm soooo confused - they were all our friends once!

M. Gaddafi
B. Assad
H Mubarak
S Hussain
 
canoecarrier
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:08 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 46):
I'm soooo confused - they were all our friends once!

M. Gaddafi
B. Assad
H Mubarak
S Hussain

It's all fun and games until someone loses their dictatorship  
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
comorin
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Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:30 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 47):

It's all fun and games until someone loses their dictatorship

Cool pic...In another life, I can see Gaddafi as a rock 'n' roller. Are we sure he's a bad guy?

Lesson: Hey dictators, learn to quit while you're ahead!
 
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keesje
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RE: History Happening Tonight - Gadaffi Regime Ending

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:37 pm

He became a friend after his secret service´ extensive middle east network helped the western services effectively fighting Al Qaida, shortly after 9-11.



During the last 5 years the press used pictures of him smiling. Since last years they select photo´s of him looking angry.

Not judging, only noticing.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway

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