Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Aloha717200
Topic Author
Posts: 3845
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:50 am

Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:34 pm

9/11 was, I can safely say, one of the most painful experiences of my lifetime. I was not in New York or Pennsylvania that day, but the horror of the imagery, the emotional impact of seeing so many lives end in such violent circumstances...the images of people jumping from buildings..it all impacted me very greatly. 9/11 instantly became my generation's "where were you when.." moment, and will never be forgotten by myself and most others who saw what happened that day, throughout the world.

But 10 years on, as 9/11 rememberances gear up and every third headline or news story brings up images, audio, or video from that day, I find myself avoiding the topic. I skip the article or change the channel. I don't want to see it. I don't want to go back through those emotions. I find myself avoiding 9/11 stories, topics, and threads, because I don't want to re-live 9/11. It brings up too much pain, and too many reminders of how the event became a political tool in the hands of bad policy makers. Does anyone else feel the same?

But since I'm here, talking about 9/11, here's my story of how I came to feel this way. Read it if you care, skip if it you don't, no skin off my rosy nose. I just want to share it.

My arrival at these feelings didn't happen all at once. It took years for my attitude to change. A year after 9/11, I remember my high school gathering all the students into the auditorium for a special rememberance, containing images of the events that day and the heroism of our first responders that rushed in to help, while members of our choir sung beautiful and patriotic songs. The pain was fresh, the wounds still raw, and that first anniversary hurt almost as much as the day the event happened.

By 2003 I was beginning to heal slightly, attentions had turned to Afrganistan and Iraq, and it finally felt like we were striking back. There was a satisfaction in feeling that way. And on the third anniversary of 9/11, I remembered deeply once again, the pain came back but not as sharp as before. America was finally kicking the asses of those that did this to us. Or so it felt at the time.

But by 2004 things began to change, as both Iraq and Afghanistan started to drift in the direction of being malaise...we hadn't gotten bin-laden and we were stuck fighting in areas far away from where bin laden was expected to be hiding. While taking out people who may have shared a similar mindset and certainly could have been just as dangerous, I wanted Bin Laden dead, I wanted Al Queda destroyed. But it would be many more years before we'd get Bin Laden, and Al Queda still exists...if weakened. And then there was a presidential election on top of all of that.

By 2005 attitudes had shifted, times had changed and wounds had begun to heal. I found myself more frequently upset by the TSA and their policies, as well as the Bush Administration's continuing missteps. It was disappointing, because I, like 90% of Americans after 9/11, had supported George W Bush, and felt that he was one of the strongest presidents we had ever had. For a short time, I had been Republican. It was bush himself who swayed my faith in himself and his party away, and back towards the Democrats that I had supported before.

After the political missteps of the Bush Administration, 9/11 came to represent two different things. On the one hand, it was still that incredibly painful yet definiing moment that brought Americans, and indeed much of the world, together in compassion, anger, and resolve. It still was that event that made me want to fight back and made me proud to be an American. But it had also become an excuse. 9/11 had become a political tool used by those who sought to use it as a reason to support ever-misguided policies of the Bush administration and various departments. 9/11 became an excuse for paranoia instead of bravery. 9/11 became an excuse to continue wars with no end in sight. 9/11 became an excuse for the Bush administration to throw ultimatums at our very allies, and 9/11, most insultingly, became our excuse to use the compassion of other nations who felt our pain for our own political advantage, regardless of the harm it might cause to those friendly nations or to the emotions of their people as well.

And so I feel that 9/11 became cheapened, a cheap political tool used to get things done. Insulting and sickening to myself who felt so deeply that day that I may as well have been on the streets of New York watching these buildings fall. I'm sure others felt the same. We all were Americans that day. We all were New Yorkers that day. We all felt compassion, we all put down our petty differences for a short time to embrace one another and be grateful that we were safe, we all vowed to strike back. Every country who lost someone that day joined in this resolve, and every country that could identify with such pain did as well. Using that event as an excuse to boost a political agenda is an insult to those who gave their lives, both willingly and unwillingly that day.

9/11's use as a political tool put a bad taste in my mouth, and in subsequent years, those telling us to re-experience and re-feel those emotions on every 9/11 anniversary began to sound insincere. The pain was hard enough the first time. But then I'm asked to remember and feel that pain, and oh by the way would you be willing to support another political move that damages America's image in the world, hurts America's principles of liberty and freedom, and/or wastes precious time and resources on areas that have little or nothing to do with keeping Americans themselves safe. Would you support it? Remember, 9/11? You MUST support it!

I grew tired of that. I am tired of that. And there are only so many tears I can cry before the resentment of how my emotions and the emotions of all of us were, in a sense, turned against us by those we entrusted to do what was right for our country. I don't enjoy re-living those emotions.

But I did feel good venting about them here. If you read this, thanks for your patience. If you didn't, well, *shrugs*.

[Edited 2011-09-04 07:43:42]
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22520
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:10 pm

Honestly, there was so much bad stuff going on in my personal life at that time that I can not remember about 6 weeks or so. That is the only reason I don't talk about it.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8059
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:42 pm

My wife and I are taking our children to see a 9/11 picture exhibit today. The exhibit is called "here is new york, the september 11 photographs".

My, not quite 9 year old, daughter asked what was 9/11. I wrestled with how much she could handle. My wife, plainly told her that it was a day that 2 buildings were "bombed". I explained that it was something more. I told her about the high-jackings and the subsequent destruction of the Twin Towers and the attack on the Pentagon. I didn't mention Flight 93.

I also told her that I would answer any questions she may have at the exhibit.

As for skirting the subject when it comes up? I grew up in NY. I farted around Lower Manhattan as a teen and young adult. I visited the Towers all the time with visiting friends and family. I spent 10 years as a firefighter after I left NY. I'm in the airline industry. I don't avoid talking 9/11 if the conversation goes that way. 9/11 fundamentally changed the way we live. To avoid the subject is to do a disservice to our youngsters, regardless of your feelings or attitude towards the reaction, immediately after or 5 or 10 years later, to what happened.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15203
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:57 pm

I depends on who I am with. I work with people who were in the WTC towers during the attacks, they knew of people who died in the attacks, their workplace destroyed, seeing the horrors of the attacks, the collapse of the towers and the rest of the aftermath. Some have few problems discussing it, others become very emotional and they are ones I would limit my discussions. I do know of people who were heroes that day in the WTC and traumatized by it since then and it would be very difficult to discuss it with them.

I do notice that this 10th anniversary year, I am becoming more sensitive and reluctant watching programs on TV about the 9/11 attacks. There seems to be a lot of them to choose from, both replays of past programs to new ones. Perhaps in parts it is the huge frustration I have over how and why it happened, the failures of government and airlines to prevent it, the terrible policies of the USA over 60 years before 9/11 and in the 10 years since in the Middle East/Islamic dominated regions, our futile and excessive wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the far too long delays to rebuild the WTC site, changes in our civil rights for the worst and so on. There is also the toxic legacy of clean up workers, those that had to work in lower Manhattan who's bodies have been ruined, in parts from the need to get things back to normal, so the intentional ignoring the risks from those dusts. Of course, the WTC site became a huge funeral pyre of human flesh and of buildings.

Perhaps in another 10 years, it will become less painful to deal with 9/11/01, able to talk about it easier much like those that went through WWII and Vietnam eventually did. Perhaps too we will be able to put into perspective the 9/11 attacks, our foreign and domestic policies will change for the better and we will learn lessons from that day, it will also be less politically abused.
 
FingerLakerAv8r
Posts: 251
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 12:30 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:01 pm

I work in the airline industry so everyday is a constant reminder. I worked for one of the airlines that was hijacked that day and even though I am not with them anymore when I see them taxi by you can't help but think about it. In a given year I would say a conversation about 9/11/01 comes up at least once a week.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24313
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:25 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
9/11 was, I can safely say, one of the most painful experiences of my lifetime. I was not in New York or Pennsylvania that day, but the horror of the imagery, the emotional impact of seeing so many lives end in such violent circumstances...the images of people jumping from buildings..it all impacted me very greatly.

I'm sure it did/does.

In my case, it was a day of hell, but I often think of people who live years of hell, decades of hell, lives of hell.

Innocents caught in a war zone, subject to ethnic cleansing, gunfire, rape.

Innocents born into poverty who can't get enough to eat.

It goes on and on.

When I think of the lives of hell these others lead, 9/11 is just not as significant in my mind.

As I've said here before, I think the US totally overreacted to 9/11 and torched the goodwill we've built up over fifty years or more, not to mention spending ourselves into the current crisis we find ourselves in by running two wars off budget.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
But 10 years on, as 9/11 rememberances gear up and every third headline or news story brings up images, audio, or video from that day, I find myself avoiding the topic. I skip the article or change the channel. I don't want to see it. I don't want to go back through those emotions. I find myself avoiding 9/11 stories, topics, and threads, because I don't want to re-live 9/11. It brings up too much pain, and too many reminders of how the event became a political tool in the hands of bad policy makers. Does anyone else feel the same?

I feel the same.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6268
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:43 pm

It is interesting to talk to my father about his reaction as a young teenager to Pearl Harbor, and my children's reactions to 9/11.

Sept 11 was a very emotional day for me, and my kids, along with my father. But he was able to put into some perspective when he talks about PH. Just as 9/11, Dec 7, 1941 was a day when the US no longer seemed invincible.

He also saw a lot of the hype and politcalization of Pearl Harbor over the next few years which we see today with 9/11. Just no where near as much volume due to many fewer news outlets. In his, and my opinions, we expect over the years, 9/11 will lose some of the political aspect, and become a more respectful rememberance.

We will never lose the cultural and racial sterotypes which generate hate. Even today many of the myths around Pearl Harbor continue to perpetuate hatred. I've had the opportunity to meet many people who lost fathers at Pearl Harbor, both US and Japanese. The contrast is very insightful.

One thing which does bother me about 9/11 is that it seems to be remembered as a solely American tragedy. Over 10% of the 2,669 deaths were people from other nations. The United Kingdom lost 67 people. India, South Korea, Canada, Japan, Colombia, Jamaica, Mexico, The Philippines, Trinidad & Tobago, Australia, Germany and Italy all lost more than 10 of their citizens/nationals.

43 other nations around the world lost people in the 9/11 attacks.

(Two days which were more impactful on my life were Nov 22, 1963 - the day the US stopped being a safe country to me; and Oct 23, 1983 when I lost so many close friends, and nearly lost my life. Apr 19, 1995 was the day terrorism became a part of life in the United States.)
Not all who wander are lost.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30089
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:12 pm

I live in a country prone to Terror attacks & majority are Cross border ones.
The hurt felt has caused sadness to many.

On 9/11 discussions I try to avoid topics that discuss the details of Aviation pertaining to that attack or details on how crew can prevent such attacks or equipment location in Aircraft doing that....

I guess its the least we can do to not educate terrorists of aviation inner secrets..
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:55 pm

I don't dismiss nor have I forgotten the 9/11 events by any means and I mean no disrespect to anyone here or elsewhere but, when I hear people moan and whine about how "traumatized and scarred for life they are" despite nobody they new was hurt during the attacks nor were they anywhere near at the moment, that disturbs me more than the attacks themselves. I could understand people mourning for the death of a loved one or being disturbed if they were in the immediate area but otherwise? come on... get a grip on yourselves... by letting the terrorists under your skin and effectively terrorize you've let them won.

So instead of trembling in fear at the mere thought of 9/11 why don't we all keep our chin up and give a big F-you to the terrorists and get on with our lives shall we?
 
Springbok747
Posts: 3993
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:13 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:03 pm

I avoid it with idiots who think it was all an inside job and that Bush was responsible for it blah blah ..no point in talking with them.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
I don't dismiss nor have I forgotten the 9/11 events by any means and I mean no disrespect to anyone here or elsewhere but, when I hear people moan and whine about how "traumatized and scarred for life they are" despite nobody they new was hurt during the attacks nor were they anywhere near at the moment, that disturbs me more than the attacks themselves.

  

I know quite a few people who were "traumatized" by watching the attacks on TV..sitting here..10,000+ miles away. These people need help.
אני תומך בישראל
 
flymia
Posts: 7127
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:58 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
Does anyone else feel the same?

It is a sad day in American and really world history yes, but it will be a terrible thing if we forget that day.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
By 2005 attitudes had shifted, times had changed and wounds had begun to heal. I found myself more frequently upset by the TSA and their policies, as well as the Bush Administration's continuing missteps. It was disappointing, because I, like 90% of Americans after 9/11, had supported George W Bush, and felt that he was one of the strongest presidents we had ever had. For a short time, I had been Republican. It was bush himself who swayed my faith in himself and his party away, and back towards the Democrats that I had supported before.
Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
And so I feel that 9/11 became cheapened, a cheap political tool used to get things done.
Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
9/11's use as a political tool

I will say reading much of your post it sounds more political then emotional.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):
One thing which does bother me about 9/11 is that it seems to be remembered as a solely American tragedy. Over 10% of the 2,669 deaths were people from other nations. The United Kingdom lost 67 people. India, South Korea, Canada, Japan, Colombia, Jamaica, Mexico, The Philippines, Trinidad & Tobago, Australia, Germany and Italy all lost more than 10 of their citizens/nationals.

I agree that we do need to remember all that died but this was an American tragedy, it happen in the US, the vast majority were Americans who died that day.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
I don't dismiss nor have I forgotten the 9/11 events by any means and I mean no disrespect to anyone here or elsewhere but, when I hear people moan and whine about how "traumatized and scarred for life they are" despite nobody they new was hurt during the attacks nor were they anywhere near at the moment, that disturbs me more than the attacks themselves. I could understand people mourning for the death of a loved one or being disturbed if they were in the immediate area but otherwise? come on... get a grip on yourselves... by letting the terrorists under your skin and effectively terrorize you've let them won.

Agree with you 100% Unless you knew someone, or maybe were in DC being evacuated from the buildings or worked in the airline industry etc.. If 9/11 did not change your life in a significant way I get bothered also by people who take a huge emotional toll to the day. It was a terrible day of course, a sorrow day. I was 12 years old in Miami, I knew no one there, was not near the place. 9/11 even changed my life a bit, I probably would have continued to pursue a career in flying and I probably would not have gone to college where I went etc.. But things happen in the world, we do need to continue to go. We do not want to forget but we need to go on.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
So instead of trembling in fear at the mere thought of 9/11 why don't we all keep our chin up and give a big F-you to the terrorists and get on with our lives shall we?

That exactly the best thing to do. Remember it, but tell those dirt bags we are still here and nothing is going to stop us.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 9):
I avoid it with idiots who think it was all an inside job and that Bush was responsible for it blah blah ..no point in talking with them.

Hate those people, they really do not have any common sense.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
FoxTwo
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:49 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:14 pm

Aloha, I want to thank you for submitting your thoughts. I gathered you are very disappointed with the previous government in your country; like many in this small world. Our lives changed that day regardless of being an American or not. It was not until a few years ago I typed in "September 11th 2001 : First Responses . My spine honestly shivered. From the screams to the sounds of shattering glass (those who jumped to their deaths). Do I want to talk about it every day? No. Do I want it to occupy my daily life ? No. The bottom line is : human beings who have; no rights, no security, no future, no hope, and no means to survive ; are a desperate group who will do desperate things to achieve what they believe . Sadly, this belief falls into the religious category. My interest stops here. I have heard enough about religion and what "I should" be to last a lifetime.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 9):
I know quite a few people who were "traumatized" by watching the attacks on TV..sitting here..10,000+ miles away. These people need help.

Traumatized is a very oblique word. Some people had visited those towers in the past. Some people have visited Washington D.C. and believe it or not, most have some sort of emotional connection with areas of the world they have walked, whether it be positive or negative. Also, to be honest, even if these individuals had never walked ground zero, or any of the other sites on that very dark day, do they not have a reason to feel saddened? traumatized? It is pointless to try and classify their emotions. How many times a year do you witness 767s fly into skyscrapers in New York City? Enough said.
F2
 
Kent350787
Posts: 1395
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:31 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 9):
I know quite a few people who were "traumatized" by watching the attacks on TV..sitting here..10,000+ miles away. These people need help.

Permanently traumatised, yes +1.

However, I saw the late news (Sydney, Oz) on 11/9/01, and the reporting and footage was of an aircraft (unspecified) having impacted one of the Towers. I woke up on 12/9/01 to see that both towers had collapsed and I came close to fainting, and went to work not knowing how to feel. Deeply uncomfortable when my wife boarded a flight on 13/9/01 - mind you, the fact that it was an Ansett flight and the airline collapsed on 14/9/11 caused more immediate problems than the attacks.

We've had occasional discussions with our 8yo on the issue, and I'm sure the almost 4yo will be asking questions later this week. But there's no point in discussing it with conspiricist nutjobs.
S340/J31/146-300/F27/F50/Nord 262/Q100/200/E195/733/734/738/744/762/763/77W/788/789/320/321/332/333/345/359
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3659
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:38 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 9):
I avoid it with idiots who think it was all an inside job and that Bush was responsible for it blah blah ..no point in talking with them.

Same here. It is a conversation that inevitable pisses you off...
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:14 am

I'm actually taking a very different approach. With the ten year anniversary approaching, I have actually begun rewatching much of the footage from that morning, especially the live news broadcasts reporting as it was happening live on the air. I don't know why, but I find that stuff very interesting. What I'm having the hardest time with is the fact it's already been ten years! Wow..

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 13):
Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 9):
I avoid it with idiots who think it was all an inside job and that Bush was responsible for it blah blah ..no point in talking with them.

Same here. It is a conversation that inevitable pisses you off...


Oh man, does thar stuff really get me riled up. What sucks is you can't search for or watch anything online related to 9/11 without seeing comments from these idiots. It's really very sad that people think that way.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8059
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:26 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
I don't dismiss nor have I forgotten the 9/11 events by any means and I mean no disrespect to anyone here or elsewhere but, when I hear people moan and whine about how "traumatized and scarred for life they are" despite nobody they new was hurt during the attacks nor were they anywhere near at the moment, that disturbs me more than the attacks themselves.

I'm not sure how to respond here, because, at some level I agree with you. I was not directly affected, but I was affected. As stated:
-I grew up in NY. I spent quite some time over the following days trying to determine if anyone I knew was killed (no one).
-I was a firefighter. Firefighting is a close knit profession.
-I'm in the airline industry. Our lives changed dramatically. I know people who have lost their jobs because of the events of 9/11.

So, traumatized may be the wrong word...but affected and now reflecting on it 10 years later...yeah, I can say that I was affected.

Again, this was an event that fundamentally changed the way we live in the US.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
User avatar
Aloha717200
Topic Author
Posts: 3845
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:50 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:08 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
when I hear people moan and whine about how "traumatized and scarred for life they are" despite nobody they new was hurt during the attacks nor were they anywhere near at the moment, that disturbs me more than the attacks themselves.
Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 9):
I know quite a few people who were "traumatized" by watching the attacks on TV..sitting here..10,000+ miles away. These people need help.

I think it depends on your definition of "traumatized". I don't find my reaction to the attacks to be at all abnormal or disturbing. It's not hard to imagine the horror that other people were experiencing and feel empathy for that, feel those emotions yourself.

I was 16 years old at the time of the attacks. I wanted to be an airline pilot at the time and never before in my life had I see such violent and horrific imagery. I knew there was evil in the world, but never had I seen pure evil carried our on live television. Never had I seen airliners flown into buildings, never had I seen innocent people falling to their deaths from 100 stories up, never had I see my fellow countrymen and women so distraught. When I saw all of these things I joined in the anger, the pain, the compassion for everyone who was directly affected by these attacks. This is my country. This is my home. I don't have to be from New York and I don't have to have known someone who died that day to have a heart big enough to care and share emotions with the people who were there.

Do you not remember how many prominent figures rose up in the aftermath of 9/11, all around the world, declaring "we all are New Yorkers today, we all are Americans today". This means people around the world felt the shock, pain, and anger that we felt too....10,000 miles away. This is not disturbing. It's empathetic. It's compassionate. It's normal.

Over the course of the next 4 years after 9/11, I, and I imagine most other people, began to heal from those wounds but every anniversary when the images and the sounds were thrust back into the spotlight, it brought those emotions back up again. It wasn't until 4 years later that the anniversary images stopped affecting me, as by that time I was more annoyed by how they were being used as a tool rather than paying respects to those who died. Which brings me to this:

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):
I will say reading much of your post it sounds more political then emotional.

It is politics itself that soured me on 9/11 anniversaries because of the way the event was politicised. The political part of my post is merely an explanation as to how I arrived at feeling the way I do today.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:07 pm

The conspiracy theories really interest me only because they completely baffle me... how can anyone think they're true!? What are they thinking!? I never have thought they were true, but I looked into them all because of the shock factor (that people actually believe that) and I always end up being pissed off. I avoid 1 on 1 conspiracy conversations because it angers me so much I can't keep my composure.

As for 9/11 conversations in general, they don't really come up too much in my immediate age group because we were just too young. I regret feeling no sorrow that day, but I was only 11 and I did not understand the pain and misery involved. It just looked like any other movie. It was only about 2 years ago when I rewatched youtube on all the events and it really hit me...
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5558
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:59 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):
One thing which does bother me about 9/11 is that it seems to be remembered as a solely American tragedy. Over 10% of the 2,669 deaths were people from other nations. The United Kingdom lost 67 people. India, South Korea, Canada, Japan, Colombia, Jamaica, Mexico, The Philippines, Trinidad & Tobago, Australia, Germany and Italy all lost more than 10 of their citizens/nationals.


Indeed, whilst not belittling the other countries affected by this tragedy, 9/11 was the worst terrorist event against Australians until the 1st Bali bombings a little over a year later.

Whilst not having any reluctance to discuss 0/11, I have a VHS tape made that evening that I find incredibly difficult to watch.
I was recording West Wing as I had intended to go to bed early(Attacks took place late Tuesday evening Sydney time), hadn't yet retired when a News anchor came on with a "news flash", an unusual occurrence as most networks here have a news break every hour or so, I forgot the tape and left it recording on Long Play so I have a record of events from approx 08:50 New york time until the tape ran out 7 or so hours later.
It is incredibly difficult to watch the tape, in real time with all the news feed, reporters, anchors etc discussing events.. when I know what will happen over those hours... and they don't.
I have no trouble watching other documentary or analytical programs about that day.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 12):
Deeply uncomfortable when my wife boarded a flight on 13/9/01 - mind you, the fact that it was an Ansett flight and the airline collapsed on 14/9/11 caused more immediate problems than the attacks.


I had booked flights to & from MEL for the 15-16/09/01 on Ansett, when I called on the 13/09 to cancel those flights I was reassured by the call taker that flying in Australia was quite safe and I should not be put off flying by the events in the USA, she seemed quite taken aback by my response that I was not worried by that but more concerned at the inconvenience of being stranded in MEL when the airline collapsed!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
greasespot
Posts: 2968
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:06 pm

This may sound cold but I avoid discussions because I really do not care. I did not know anyone on the fights or in the buildings.

Yes I was part of an airline at the time and am reminded of it due to policies / stories that have been initiated but I do not really find it painful to think about it.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
FoxTwo
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:49 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:12 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
The conspiracy theories really interest me only because they completely baffle me... how can anyone think they're true!? What are they thinking!? I never have thought they were true, but I looked into them all because of the shock factor (that people actually believe that) and I always end up being pissed off. I avoid 1 on 1 conspiracy conversations because it angers me so much I can't keep my composure.

I often find the 9/11 conspiracy debates very similar to that of arguing with dogmatic Christian's , Muslims, etc. The whole topic has been slammed with "Islamaphobia", conspiracy, freedom of speech - yet if you criticize etc you're opinions are void. 9/11 discussions have transformed into a left wing message with a totalitarian backbone whereby you are no longer human to feel sensitive to the events and realities of that day. A generation whereby you have a mental illness if you do not support religion or someone else beliefs.

I avoid 9/11 discussions because I do not want an explanation of the "religion of peace" . I do not want an explanation as to how a demolition team ran up the twin towers in a matter of minutes, planted explosives, then left. I have no interest whatsoever in listening to a conspiracy whereby G.W.B. conspired to drive his country into a recession at the expense of thousands for no reason at all. People make money of this. People thrive off it.

This morning on CNN.com - there is a new thing about discrimination in America since 9/11. I just can't help but ask myself - what about the families of the victims? How about the family of Kevin Cosgrove , who listened to him scream as the towers collapsed? I find the 9/11 discussions are swamped with "free will" , "freedom" , etc. yet the same old conclusion lingers - "You submit, you believe what we believe , or you simply have a mental illness" . It's about tolerance - aka you focus on what "we want" . Criticism is again, a mental illness, and a crime.

Where are all these groups when it comes to raising funds for NYC firefighters, Police Officers, and other first res ponders who now have less than half the lung capacity they use to have?

I do not usually take part in 9/11 discussions, because I am sick of people demanding special treatment for their personal beliefs (whatever they may be ) , trampling on those who died that day. When it comes down to the true victims of 9/11 , they are forgotten. I find 9/11 is used as a billboard.

If I may suggest, this upcoming anniversary , do something kind for your local first responders, If you are in NYC, try and organize a BBQ for a local ladder. Do something for these people and their families. Invite one of the local Mosques to take part - and celebrate the lives of those who were taken on that day.
F2
 
BN747
Posts: 7898
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:51 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
The pain was fresh, the wounds still raw, and that first anniversary hurt almost as much as the day the event happened.

My pain and anger was over within 72 hours... because something didn't smell right..

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
By 2005 attitudes had shifted, times had changed and wounds had begun to heal. I found myself more frequently upset by the TSA and their policies, as well as the Bush Administration's continuing missteps. It was disappointing, because I, like 90% of Americans after 9/11, had supported George W Bush, and felt that he was one of the strongest presidents we had ever had.

I was in that 10% bracket, by 2005..our ranks expanded considerably!

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
After the political missteps of the Bush Administration, 9/11 came to represent two different things. On the one hand, it was still that incredibly painful yet definiing moment that brought Americans, and indeed much of the world, together in compassion, anger, and resolve.,

With millions still stuck in the 'I'm deeply hurt' mode... and will be so forever.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
. But it had also become an excuse. 9/11 had become a political tool used by those who sought to use it as a reason to support ever-misguided policies of the Bush administration and various departments.

For some it be came that right off the bat. Playing up fears so intensely, all American Media threw out any shred of 'independent reporting or even questioning' of government acts, policies and statements. Common sense was suspended. It was an environment exactly like the Red Scare of 1950s by Joseph McCarthy..people were terrified of being called a communist and turned on one another in a heartbeat. It was the exact conditions then after 9/11 some 50 years later. A friend was showing aviation videos at one of the Aviation Trade Shows...a few 'uncomfortables' informed the police - AND they actually came!

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
9/11 became an excuse for paranoia instead of bravery.

Brave? Americans after 9/11...the only one I can think of is Pat Tillman...and the gov't wants you to forget all about him! That's a name that'll get doors slammed in your face.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
9/11 became an excuse to continue wars with no end in sight. 9/11 became an excuse for the Bush administration to throw ultimatums at our very allies

..and at the American people themselves ... 'You're either with us..or against'.. scared a lot of people 'into their corners' to shut up and go along. Question nothing.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
And so I feel that 9/11 became cheapened, a cheap political tool used to get things done.

Oh you must mean like Rudy Guliani.. repeating "9/11" every 5 words...he must have it patented by now.

But the most telling factors that cheapens 9/11 are:

Bush's feverishly fighting any and all 9/11 investigations with great passion.

Bush's refusal to testify - on record - about 9/11.

Bush's insistence that Cheney sit with him when he made time to meet 'with the commission panel'

Bush's 'absolute insistence' that 9/11 survivors and family - accept a one time pay out immediately or within a very short & limited window of time. ..instead of allowing a proper investigation to be launched and take it's course.

The 9/11 Commissions ineptitude.

Mayor Rudolph Guilani himself - made his name (to become mayor) by being a tough 'take no prisoners' US Federal Prosecutor bringing down the Gambinos crime family. Then as Mayor presses the 'FF' button (think remote control unit here) on cleaning up the 9/11 crime scene without haste - instead of preserving the scene as any 'average' prosecutor would have done. In Washington, we've all seen the photos of people actually picking up and removing pieces minutes after it occurred. -- Who does this kinda crap and says nothing about it?

Fights to this day to stop further investigations, conservative Congressmen calling 9/11 responder illnesses 'fake and imagine' and not worth compensation.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
9/11's use as a political tool put a bad taste in my mouth, and in subsequent years, those telling us to re-experience and re-feel those emotions on every 9/11 anniversary began to sound insincere.

And those telling you that are the exploiting it. And most of the herd follows along... and groans 'woe is me'..

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
Would you support it? Remember, 9/11? You MUST support it!

Given who the 'Cheerleaders' are...NO!

Quoting Aloha717200 (Thread starter):
I grew tired of that. I am tired of that. And there are only so many tears I can cry before the resentment of how my emotions and the emotions of all of us were, in a sense, turned against us by those we entrusted to do what was right for our country.

You have no more tears because you visceral reactions now are telling you what you may have always known subliminally.. there's more to the story 'than what you've been told'. And the questions in your mind will on increase as time passes, not decrease. It's what people do when a picture, puzzle is incomplete.


Me personally, I can no longer bring myself to discuss 9/11 issues with those who are incapable of suspending their emotions entirely and discuss it from brass-knuckles perspective. It's like a 'easily emotional female police detective' interviewing a rape victim ... it's the wrong person to gather facts and asked 'the right questions' and pursue/obtain real and truthful answers.


I've accepted the fact that many people can live quite easily, very comfortably and build their lives around 'knowing little or partial-truths' about lifetime shattering events, and not give it another thought. I'm just not one of them.

BN747

[Edited 2011-09-05 11:57:05]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
flymia
Posts: 7127
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:24 pm

Quoting FoxTwo (Reply 20):
If I may suggest, this upcoming anniversary , do something kind for your local first responders, If you are in NYC, try and organize a BBQ for a local ladder. Do something for these people and their families. Invite one of the local Mosques to take part - and celebrate the lives of those who were taken on that day.

Great advice!

Quoting BN747 (Reply 21):
My pain and anger was over within 72 hours... because something didn't smell right..

    
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
thomil13FRA
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:13 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:13 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 9):

I avoid it with idiots who think it was all an inside job and that Bush was responsible for it blah blah ..no point in talking with them.

I can live with them, they're like those yapping "flea taxi" type dogs, annoying but mostly harmless. But what really got my blood boiling was a statement by one of my colleagues just before I flew to New York this summer. He basically told me to go to the World Trade Center Memorial and, I quote, "have a good laugh"!!!

Believe me, it took every ounce of self control to stay calm and peaceful. As I said, I can live with the conspiracy theorists, as an amateur writer I love to spin a good yarn every now and then myself, but what really gets my blood boiling is those creeps that claim that "they didn't deserve any better" or that "It's all a big joke anyway.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:50 pm

Quoting thomil13FRA (Reply 23):
As I said, I can live with the conspiracy theorists, as an amateur writer I love to spin a good yarn every now and then myself, but what really gets my blood boiling is those creeps that claim that "they didn't deserve any better" or that "It's all a big joke anyway.

   Conspiracy theory or not, thousands still died. Good of you to keep your self-control, I don't know what I would have done...
 
CplKlinger
Posts: 326
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:05 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:47 pm

I don't avoid the discussions, and I don't mind talking about it. It's fascinating to talk about it especially with some of the younger employees of mine at work, most of whom were only as young as 6 or 7 when it happened. They have a different perspective on that day, and they always seem interested in mine. That kind of interaction and discussion helps keep the right part of the memory alive. I will always, quite vividly, remember the events of that morning, just as vividly as I remember the moment I married my wife and the moment my daughter was born. They are a part of me and a part of my own "history".

However, what makes me almost downright sick and angry, is the obvious way the upcoming events are being used for spin in the mainstream media, on all sides (Fox News type conservative or CNN type liberal). To me, it cheapens the memory, turns it into a sleaze fest of "I can have the snazziest graphics and such for the best ratings." When my daughter is older, and I have to come to the point where on some future September 11th I have to explain to her the events of that day, it will be through both my retelling of those events as I experienced them as well as the archival footage from events from that day, with no spin. It is my feeling that those who died that day, and have died since in Iraq/Afghanistan, deserve at least that much from me, to keep their memory alive.
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9718
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:54 pm

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 13):
Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 9):
I avoid it with idiots who think it was all an inside job and that Bush was responsible for it blah blah ..no point in talking with them.

Same here. It is a conversation that inevitable pisses you off...

I agree. It is even worse if it is someone in your own family claiming such sh*t. Well not someone I am directly related to, but still. That is a topic I just don't want to discuss with him. It can be a bad idea to talk politics/world views with people close to you.
 
BN747
Posts: 7898
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:19 pm

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 25):
I don't avoid the discussions, and I don't mind talking about it. It's fascinating to talk about it especially with some of the younger employees of mine at work, most of whom were only as young as 6 or 7 when it happened. They have a different perspective on that day, and they always seem interested in mine.

Isn't that amazing...younger minds viewing this event differently and in a non-combative way, yet are open to varied discussions and perspectives..while full grown adults go on vitriolic attacks against others 'who view things differently or question what's been proported as truth'?

...it speaks to psychosis thats has a hair-trigger 'name calling' response to anyone disagreeing with them (probably on all matters as far as that goes).. it's as if if they really believe they own 'all rights' to being angry and all rights to 'absolute truth' of what actually occurred. Simply astonishing. Leave it to kids to possess a greater logical approach.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Geezer
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:37 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:21 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 7):
I guess its the least we can do to not educate terrorists of aviation inner secrets..

I was thinking this just today.......while watching a documentary about the FBI investigating a bunch of Islamic radicals in N. Virginia; they managed to get a conviction on the ringleader, and he is in prison for life, but telling the story, the damned producers explained every single detail of how the FBI cracked the case. ( Like this will be the only ones we'll ever need to catch ! )


[quote=Springbok747,reply=9]I avoid it with idiots who think it was all an inside job and that Bush was responsible for it blah blah ..no point in talking with them.

I totally agree..............however, I think we have a few of them on this forum.

My "feelings" about the events of 9-11 are best expressed on the other "where were you" thread

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
BN747
Posts: 7898
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:27 am

Quoting Geezer (Reply 28):
[quote=Springbok747,reply=9]I avoid it with idiots who think it was all an inside job and that Bush was responsible for it blah blah ..no point in talking with them.

I totally agree..............however, I think we have a few of them on this forum.

..again, .while the adults resort to name calling and child-like conduct with "you're wrong, crazy' and an idiot"... the younger minds..

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 25):
It's fascinating to talk about it especially with some of the younger employees of mine at work, most of whom were only as young as 6 or 7 when it happened. They have a different perspective on that day, and they always seem interested in mine.

..come across as much more mature demographic on the subject. Speaks total volumes...

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
CplKlinger
Posts: 326
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:05 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:34 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 29):
Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 25):
It's fascinating to talk about it especially with some of the younger employees of mine at work, most of whom were only as young as 6 or 7 when it happened. They have a different perspective on that day, and they always seem interested in mine.

..come across as much more mature demographic on the subject. Speaks total volumes..

95% of them still think the conspiracy theorists pertaining to 9/11 are loonies. As do I. If this were a bar, I'd be kindly showing you a door, and informing you of which particular piece of anatomy it should not strike as you are escorted out.

Please, if all you are going to do is simply stir the pot with your theories and postulations, please find another location to do so.
 
flymia
Posts: 7127
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:42 am

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 30):
Please, if all you are going to do is simply stir the pot with your theories and postulations, please find another location to do so.


I was going to respond to some things, but lets just try to our best at ignoring this.

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 25):
I don't avoid the discussions, and I don't mind talking about it. It's fascinating to talk about it especially with some of the younger employees of mine at work, most of whom were only as young as 6 or 7 when it happened.


Interesting point. I was only 12 at the time but I too found the views some of the youngest Anet members posted in the other thread very interesting. I also find it interesting how people outside the US see the events and the day. It will be interesting to see how 9/11 develops more in history as it makes its way into Middle School US History books and so on. And how kids in 10-20 years will see the events and what they will be taught about it.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
User avatar
Aloha717200
Topic Author
Posts: 3845
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:50 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:51 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 21):
My pain and anger was over within 72 hours... because something didn't smell right..

I can honestly say that I do not believe at all that 9/11 was an inside job...and I am an open minded person. I saw the second plane hit the towers live, I've seen the footage and the interviews of Atta and the other terrorists heading through the airports before the attacks, or accounts by those who ran into them (such as that DL flight attendant that checked in Atta that morning).

There are those who suggest that the terrorists were paid or hired to do what they did but I also don't buy that. No offense but, I think it's fairly clear that islamic extremists do desire to carry out this kind of violence against us. I think that the closest we can come to calling this an inside job is to blame the Clinton and Bush administrations for not acting quickly enough to capture Bin Laden and the members of Al Queda before 9/11. Hindsight is 20/20 however, and I don't feel that the level of urgency needed could have come at the time. The U.S.S. Cole and Embassy bombings were a warning...but they were far away from the homeland and close to the terrorists bases. I don't think the USA really believed the terrorists would attack us on our own soil. And that was our biggest failing. Failing to recognize the full scope of the threat and acting fast enough to address it. Both administrations can be held accountable for that one. But that hardly means that it was an inside job.

I believe the proper aviation term for that would be: Human error.

And we all know that human error, even if unintended, can prove to be deadly.

As for Bush requiring Cheney to be with him...in truth, I think that has much to do with Bush disliking the spotlight, and also Bush's pride. I don't think Bush wanted the spectacle made of himself being questioned by others without a stronger ego/personality, Cheney, in the room. People were more likely to take Cheney seriously than Bush, I feel, because Bush had a habit of mixing his words up. Cheney's grouchiness had a way of intimidating people.

We havent seen much of Bush since he exited office. That, to me, tells me a lot about how little Bush enjoyed the spotlight.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 1395
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:57 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 32):
I don't think the USA really believed the terrorists would attack us on our own soil.

Which is interesting, given that they already had, in 1993.

But as for "9/11", I don't see any of the conspiracies ringing true at all.
S340/J31/146-300/F27/F50/Nord 262/Q100/200/E195/733/734/738/744/762/763/77W/788/789/320/321/332/333/345/359
 
BN747
Posts: 7898
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:14 am

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 30):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 29):
Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 25):
It's fascinating to talk about it especially with some of the younger employees of mine at work, most of whom were only as young as 6 or 7 when it happened. They have a different perspective on that day, and they always seem interested in mine.

..come across as much more mature demographic on the subject. Speaks total volumes..

95% of them still think the conspiracy theorists pertaining to 9/11 are loonies. As do I. If this were a bar, I'd be kindly showing you a door, and informing you of which particular piece of anatomy it should not strike as you are escorted out.

...ummm I think in real life I'd more fitting for the bouncer role..but fantasy on the internet isn't new.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 32):
I think that the closest we can come to calling this an inside job is to blame the Clinton and Bush administrations for not acting quickly enough to capture Bin Laden and the members of Al Queda before 9/11. Hindsight is 20/20 however

Yes it is.. but I don't take issue with who acted fast enough or on whose watch anything occurred..that's just looking for someone to place blame. For what.. our intelligence network is as good as the Israeli Mossad or better..so I've no issue with that.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 32):
As for Bush requiring Cheney to be with him...in truth, I think that has much to do with Bush disliking the spotlight, and also Bush's pride.

On the contrary, you must have forgotten all the public appearances and speeches he made during his time plus a few debates in from of a live audience. Him sitting at table of 6-12 people at roundtable is very much like his daily staff and cabinet meetings...no difference at all. But if you want to give a free pass on that..that's your call. His record of public speaking before audiences is well documented.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 32):
I don't think Bush wanted the spectacle made of himself being questioned by others without a stronger ego/personality, Cheney, in the room.

ummm don't quite get that one...

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 32):
People were more likely to take Cheney seriously than Bush, I feel, because Bush had a habit of mixing his words up. Cheney's grouchiness had a way of intimidating people.

okay..soooo that's an excuse forgo an important witness to the very 1st moments of that day? If only all cops/investigators were that considerate.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 32):
We havent seen much of Bush since he exited office. That, to me, tells me a lot about how little Bush enjoyed the spotlight.

And the other side of that coin is 'he's not quite a welcome site in many arenas given the state of the economy (esp. as he was leaving) regardless of what the GOP spin doctors say..many still remember him for how badly he handled the economy.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
BN747
Posts: 7898
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:17 am

Aloha, you asked...

Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

About five people have demonstrated all the reason in the world why many people (Americans anyway) do avoid this topic.. that they are completely incapable of doing so in a rational manner. They suddenly adopt a threatened and child-like posture and start name calling right off the bat.

I've listed some very serious concerns and questions in reply #21.. you're the only one who has shared your views on these concerns. The concerns I raised are all 'FACTS'. And yet the name callers pretend it never happened or find it easier to attempt to shut people up by ridicule. Most people on this forum 'are not confrontational types in reality' (yes on the internet they say anything that comes to mind) .. but on a subject such as this, some have to be very careful discussing this issue because of their jobs. Some may work for the gov't, be in the service or employed by a contractor attached to the gov't/military and smartly cannot risk their employment participating in such a thread. Hell, I bet some people here working for airlines can't discuss this for fear of a supervisor or adversarial co-worker who'd get him/her in trouble. So a lot of people simply cannot share what they really think out of sheer fear. Others are afraid of the ridicule (I'm certainly not one - bring it, but it makes them look silly and childish). And you know what? That's exactly the kind of thing why 'McCarthy era widespread fear' was repeated the day after 9/11. And that's exactly why those in charge exploited 9/11 fears..because they know all to well how easy it is to scare the majority. If you get anything from this..get this.. fear is the ultimate motivator, and judging by what's being said here ' The post-9/11 Fear Factor, the McCarthy Fear Factor' continues to this very day. It tells the core and underlying story .. that 'It is easier to get the public to turn against one another' simply out by scaring them to death. We're 10 years removed from 9/11 and people still have to 'watch what they say..' in a country that prides itself on free speech.

So the answer to your question is a qualified 'YES'.. most do avoid it 'here' and rightfully so...

..for fear of their jobs
..fear of attacks from fellow members
but fear nonetheless...

..and it's additional (and unnecessary work) for moderators because as grown adults, many are simply incapable of conducting themselves in respectable manner.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:46 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 35):
And yet the name callers pretend it never happened or find it easier to attempt to shut people up by ridicule.

In my experience trying to have discussions with supporters of alternative views or theories, they are the ones who are first to attack "the majority" with name calling. I had a coworker once insult the rest of us in the breakroom because we didn't want to watch conspiracy "proof" videos while at work (an airline job btw). He attacked the rest of us saying we choose to ignore the truth. He was trying to convert us all into believers. Believe what you want, but don't try to "educate" me. It's not your place. If I want another explanation, I'll find it myself. And debate is pointless because conspiracy thoery supporters hide behind the same repsonses that no amount of rational thought or discussion can penetrate. So for that reason, I avoid those kinds of 9/11 discussions.

What's interesting is that supporters of conspiracies go out of their way to make their views and beliefs heard, using every possible internet outlet to force their theories on everyone else. Yet it's those same people criticize the rest of us for going along with supposed explanations being forced upon us by our government. I don't feel the way I feel about 9/11 because of something I was told. I saw the events unfold as they happened, and I drew my own conclusions based on what I saw. It makes perfect sense to me.

[Edited 2011-09-05 21:54:37]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
spudsmac
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:36 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:08 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
I don't dismiss nor have I forgotten the 9/11 events by any means and I mean no disrespect to anyone here or elsewhere but, when I hear people moan and whine about how "traumatized and scarred for life they are" despite nobody they new was hurt during the attacks nor were they anywhere near at the moment, that disturbs me more than the attacks themselves. I could understand people mourning for the death of a loved one or being disturbed if they were in the immediate area but otherwise? come on... get a grip on yourselves... by letting the terrorists under your skin and effectively terrorize you've let them won.

So instead of trembling in fear at the mere thought of 9/11 why don't we all keep our chin up and give a big F-you to the terrorists and get on with our lives shall we?

I don't agree with you on much, but I feel the same way. I hate it when people get so caught up with something that had no direct emotional impact on them.
 
wn700driver
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 10:55 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:01 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 21):


Me personally, I can no longer bring myself to discuss 9/11 issues with those who are incapable of suspending their emotions entirely and discuss it from brass-knuckles perspective. It's like a 'easily emotional female police detective' interviewing a rape victim ... it's the wrong person to gather facts and asked 'the right questions' and pursue/obtain real and truthful answers.


I've accepted the fact that many people can live quite easily, very comfortably and build their lives around 'knowing little or partial-truths' about lifetime shattering events, and not give it another thought. I'm just not one of them.

I'll hear you out. I'm telling you right now I do not believe there was any conspiracy at all, but as an aviation professional and someone who knows a thing or two about the specific architecture of the WTC complex, I have serious doubts about any of the "alternate" theories of that day. Having that been said, I see no reason to shout you down just because you believe differently on the matter.

For the record, I like your analogy. But that's because I sat through an episode of Law & Order: SVU once. Suffice it to say that I want my 46 minutes back!

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 30):

95% of them still think the conspiracy theorists pertaining to 9/11 are loonies. As do I. If this were a bar, I'd be kindly showing you a door, and informing you of which particular piece of anatomy it should not strike as you are escorted out.

Please, if all you are going to do is simply stir the pot with your theories and postulations, please find another location to do so.

Klinger, I do indeed agree that we already know most of what there is to know.* But you're kind of making the point here about people being overly dramatic here. Taking the stance that BN747 merely disagrees with mainstream theory on this, and is not, as you say, looking for a fight, I do not see what's harmful about a dialogue. I work with, and occasionally debate, people with very intense religious views. In fact, these individuals have no illusions about how ridiculous or clown like I find their beliefs. But that doesn't stop me from talking to or drinking with them. It isn't as though they are contagious and I'll wake up the next morning to find myself "saved", thank hell.

* I say most not in a conspiratorial way, just that in event of such overwhelming violence and chaos, I do doubt we will ever know every last detail is all.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 33):

Which is interesting, given that they already had, in 1993.

And again in 1995 if you count the terrorists we raised all by ourselves here in the states. Hell, the argument can be made that every high school massacre that's happened here are acts of terrorism, as they do in fact, fit the bill. It was always foolish to think it could never happen here (as anyone in the UK, Israel, India and many other modern nations can attest).
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:47 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 35):
Some may work for the gov't, be in the service or employed by a contractor attached to the gov't/military and smartly cannot risk their employment participating in such a thread. Hell, I bet some people here working for airlines

I don't know, personally, I am in the military and plan to work for the airlines and think it is all BS. I spend a considerable amount of time looking at conspiracy theories... it is a huge interest for me. I can honestly say that I don't go into them expecting any change, but I wouldn't say I'm immediately biased against them. I haven't seen anything out there (and I have seen a LOT) that points to anything really suspicious. Feel free to PM me or share links on here that are convincing and suspicious.

To answer your post more directly, I have generally seen immaturity on both sides. You can ignore them, trolls will never go away. Ignoring the childish posts, it usually goes something like this:

Conspiracy theorist: Look at this "proof"
Non-believer: I don't see anything wrong (after actually taking time to watch it and see there are logic holes)
Conspiracy theorist: You don't respect those that died! Quit listening to the government!
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:40 pm

Might it not be an idea to wonder why it happened? Now there IS a conspiracy - of silence. No it is not simply the Sayyid Qutb philosophy. Knowing why does not mean agreeing with the reasons. But knowing the reasons (or just wanting to know the reasons) would be a heck of a lot more intelligent than sticking head in sand and starting up a couple of wars.

One of the most interesting things is that devastating as the attack were, they were effectively like a mosquito bite on an elephant as far as achieving the presumed aims. Except they made the US angry and the mistake the US then made were more effective than the attack itself. But assuming OBL did plan it, he would have been unwise to assume that Bush would make such a mess of it. Or did he really know his man. Now there is a thought!!!
 
CplKlinger
Posts: 326
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:05 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:43 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 38):
But you're kind of making the point here about people being overly dramatic here.

My main aggravation was having my words twisted an put into a different context by someone with an axe to grind and to support their agenda. My words are mine alone, and it aggravates me thoroughly when someone tries to further an agenda I disagree with. Overly dramatic? Perhaps. However, I will stand for the original meaning of my words and ensure that they are taken in the correct context any day of the week.
 
CplKlinger
Posts: 326
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:05 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:50 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
One of the most interesting things is that devastating as the attack were, they were effectively like a mosquito bite on an elephant as far as achieving the presumed aims. Except they made the US angry and the mistake the US then made were more effective than the attack itself. But assuming OBL did plan it, he would have been unwise to assume that Bush would make such a mess of it. Or did he really know his man. Now there is a thought!!!

Perhaps it is, as you say, a mosquito bite, when looking simply at the attack on us. However, when you look on the total aftermath in the 10 years since, it seems much more than that. We went from "shinning city on a hill" to the third grade bully in most of the worlds eyes (and granted, I can sort of agree with that assessment, but that is for another thread). From my limited understanding of Arabic culture, pride and respect of an individual or a group is a huge thing. So, in that sense, the attack was simply an means to an end, that being the destruction of our pride and our respect in the world community. So their reasoning may seem on a low level to be faulty, they might have been thinking more long term than any of us at the time could have dreamed of.
 
BN747
Posts: 7898
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:46 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 36):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 35):
And yet the name callers pretend it never happened or find it easier to attempt to shut people up by ridicule.

In my experience trying to have discussions with supporters of alternative views or theories, they are the ones who are first to attack "the majority" with name calling.

Well as anyone can see here... that is clearly not the case. The complete opposite and is that way here on every thread ever posted on the subject.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 36):
I had a coworker once insult the rest of us in the breakroom because we didn't want to watch conspiracy "proof" videos while at work (an airline job btw).

That's kind of silly of this co-worker or anyone who approaches such subjects this way.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 36):
He attacked the rest of us saying we choose to ignore the truth. He was trying to convert us all into believers. Believe what you want, but don't try to "educate" me. It's not your place. If I want another explanation, I'll find it myself.

And finding out 'yourself' (til one's satisfaction) is exactly how it should be.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 38):

I'll hear you out. I'm telling you right now I do not believe there was any conspiracy at all,

And just like Silver1SWA and anyone else, each is entitled to their interpretation. I've listed some points above in reply 21 that causes serious concerns, nothing wild and far fetched.. but factual occurrences that cannot be dismissed or gaffed off as simple matters to be overlooked. Your take on those?

Thing is some can handle 'more truth' than others... we've all heard people say 'That's it I don't want to know.." or "I don't want to hear this" or "don't tell me that"..and it can be anything from 'hey your wife is cheating on you..." to the boss is reviewing your portfolio.

How many times have any of you tried to discuss aviation beyond the superficial level (for the common Joe..that is a very very thin level, you'll be lucky if the get the numbers in the correct order- as in 767)... but get any deeper than that and suddenly, you're scaring them about flight. Why are they so easily frightened...? Because the you're speaking in terms beyond their comprehension and you appear smarter than the them. A double wammy.. people don't like talking about subjects they are thin on, or they don't sensing that they may reside in the shallow end of the intellect pool.

So it really doesn't take much to scare people (third time saying that). As I mentioned about the nation is a mere thump away from another McCarthyism/9/11 'fright phase'...anyone can be named the countries 'new enemy' and the majority of the nation will vilify him in a heartbeat.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 36):
And debate is pointless because conspiracy thoery supporters hide behind the same repsonses that no amount of rational thought or discussion can penetrate. So for that reason, I avoid those kinds of 9/11 discussions.

Sorry that's been your experience.. but not all skeptics take that approach.

I'm a skeptic because I unlike many here have paid attention to history, I'm very aware that conspiracy is an absolute necessary when 'real wealth and real power' is in play. It's been that way since ..

The Greeks gave us democracy
The Roman Empire
The Crusades/Inquisition
Henry VIII vs the Vatican
The American Revolution (the Brits certainly saw us as and labeled us as terrorists and conspirators)
The French Revolution
The American Civil War (particularly the short-lived Reconstruction reneged deal)
The Spanish American War
Wars with Mexico
WWI
WWII
The Vietnam War
Iraq I
Iraq II
...conspiracy played a VITAL role in triggering every single one of those events! ..and many more not mentioned.
Simply because it was a combination of humans, power and wealth. It's just the way of our world. I use our own actions, our own history as an indicator of whether or not we are being dealt with squarely or are other factors at play. It's quite simple.. the equation is ... how many times must someone lie to you before you say "that's it!" Once? Twice? Five times? How many? How many times will you let AT&T or Sprint lie to you before you switch mobile phone service? Don't even get me started on the conspiratorial crap corporations pull in the name of profit.

..and yet, you have these people who believe that if someone was involved in any of the above, they'd 'document' all their mischievous furtive conduct so that when you go to search it out 'the proof' is there. As if any wrong-doer is going document his own criminal behavior. Every corporate criminal knows the 1st thing you do is eliminate the paper trail..every step of the way. The thing I find funniest above all else, is the powerful will tell you that they are screwing you over (Cheney anyone?) and most people simply gaff it off as 'oh he's such a kidder, or bad boy'..see above 'people don't want to know' (the truth about certain matters).

So yeah, I use your (not you specifically) past conduct as measure of how truthful about a 'BIG deal'...you may or may not be, especially if your history is littered with sketchy behavior. Everyone evaluates character in this manner. But it seems they draw the line or act as if 'conspiracy' takes a holiday at some point. It cannot..it is a necessary component of the power + wealth paradigm. Many people don't want to believe 'the Church' is a haven of pedophiles...none of you have seen it..yest you believe it in a heartbeat because what other people have said. You believe it because most of us understand the human drive for sexual contact and how it intensifies when 'supressed'.. that's why you reached the 'believable' conclusion that you do. Well take the same method and apply it to human avarice...it knows no boundaries, if it has such boundaries..please tell me what you think they are.

So again if conspiracy played a role in all those events, on what day specifically did conspiracy divorce itself from Power and Wealth? Just so i can mark my calender... what date was that exactly? Because Human history tells us..conspiracy, real conspiracy will be with us until we no longer have use for 'wealth and power'.

And lastly, Aloha has stressed again and again how he is soooo turned off by politicians and gov't exploiting 9/11 for whatever gain. Yet here we have 'individuals' making veiled threats towards me and others who they hear making or discussing 'anti-official version' comments or opinions - then how pissed of are they at people who exploit 9/11 for direct political gain? .. I say zero! Why.. because I bet you can't find a single post (anywhere in the A.net archives) by any of the 'haters' railing against Guliani o any other polly for that matter for doing exactly that. But they have plenty of hate for those with differences of opinion. What kind of brain functions like that? As tough as some of these 'I'd do this or that if I heard you saying " types are..if they were in a banquet room with Guliani or Cheney, face-to-face..they'd be quiet as a mouse if not downright kissing his keester - and that is because of the perceived majesty and respect of the power they represent..it surrounds you with fear when placed on the spot.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 36):
What's interesting is that supporters of conspiracies go out of their way to make their views and beliefs heard, using every possible internet outlet to force their theories on everyone else.

None of us have excellent memories, many 'non conspiracy' people are equally using the net to spread their wares or drive home their points...nothing new there.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 36):
I don't feel the way I feel about 9/11 because of something I was told. I saw the events unfold as they happened, and I drew my own conclusions based on what I saw. It makes perfect sense to me.

As long as that works for you. We all have to go on a balanced combination of life experiences and events as shown to us. The one's I don't understand ... are those who say 'all politicians are liars and cheats'.. and then out of that same mouth comes ' oh but he's telling the truth on that one.." Oh really..and how do you know that?

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 38):
but as an aviation professional and someone who knows a thing or two about the specific architecture of the WTC complex, I have serious doubts about any of the "alternate" theories of that day. Having that been said, I see no reason to shout you down just because you believe differently on the matter.

And I too know quite a bit about aviation, but that wasn't good enough..I had to speak with pilots friends and others to solicit their interpretation of what happened and opinions are very widespread - not all in one nice neatly wrapped box of answers that would make people feel good.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:53 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
How many times have any of you tried to discuss aviation beyond the superficial level (for the common Joe..that is a very very thin level, you'll be lucky if the get the numbers in the correct order- as in 767)... but get any deeper than that and suddenly, you're scaring them about flight. Why are they so easily frightened...?

Whoa. I have had many aviation related conversations with the common Joe, but not once can I recall those conversations causing fear. I do not follow you at all on that one.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
None of us have excellent memories, many 'non conspiracy' people are equally using the net to spread their wares or drive home their points...nothing new there.

I don't, but if I had personal footage from that day and decided to share it with the world by posting it on the internet, I can almost guarantee you the very first comment will be from someone trying to promote an alternative view or conspiracy theory. To use another breakroom example, on another occasion a few years ago, we were watching the news and something about 9/11 came on. An individual decided to interrupt and preach his beliefs about how it's all lies. Lies lies lies, and we're all sheep for believing them. Totally concalled for in my opinion. It's only once that happens that you see "non conspiracy" people chiming in to make or defend their point. It's often, from my experience on the web and in real life interraction, that the conspiracy believers do the provoking. But I will give you the fact that it in this thread, it started first from the "non conspiracy" folks.

I'm having a hard time following some of your points because it seems like you jump to conclusions rather easily. For example, you point out actions by our government before and after the attacks and somehow that proves some kind of conspiracy? I don't know what you believe specifically so I don't know entirely where you stand. Do I think our government is crooked and incompetent? Sure I do. Is it possible they knew about the coming attacks and sat back and let it happen? Sure, it's possible. But do I think that government incompetence and deception automatically proves the likelihood that the planes had secret missles on them that fired nanoseconds ahead of the collisions, or that the towers were brought down by planted explosives controlled demolition style? No, I do not. There are so many varying theories out there. Some are WAAAAAAAY out there, some more plausible. But unlike most conspiracy supporters, I do not think the actions by our government/politicians and the attacks being carried out by terrorists using airplanes, and airplanes only are mutually exclusive.

[Edited 2011-09-06 15:54:05]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
BN747
Posts: 7898
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:44 pm

If you read through what I wrote and trying to find where I stand, you're looking for the wrong item. I've basically painted a psychological profile of what we humans will do and hwo there is virtually no limit, no matter what gov't we're discussing.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 44):



And your opinion is respected.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 44):
Is it possible they knew about the coming attacks and sat back and let it happen? Sure, it's possible.

What gives you ground to accept that could possibly happen? Some experience somewhere in your life has brought you to a point where you can say 'that could be possible'. I mean that vs many in your camp who would argue with you and say 'No even that is not possible'. So I ask, why as small of a possibility that may be in your book..why still that tiny room for that kind of belief'?


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
soon7x7
Posts: 2267
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 10:51 am

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:21 am

While I worked in Manhattan at the time they were being constructed, I watched in amazement how fast they went up and how horribly they came down. My anger stems back to the first week post 9/11 as I truly felt if the US did not inflict a heavy blow to the host country that sponsored this act or sheltered the terrorists that did this (we knew who they were)...we would be held hostage in our own country under a blanket of fear and continuous threats for decades. Unfortunately the later has become reality. Every time we travel we are reminded again of the fallout resulting from inaction by our government. My response would have been a quick, decisive blow to a highly valued city, including innocent collateral casualties as this was a blatant act of war against the US. This reaction on our part would have served as a stern notice to those that might consider future such acts. In stead we as usual have protracted this Viet like non war that has killed yet even more Americans, made defense contractors yet wealthier (GE)...bla bla bla. Tired of it, tired of political correctness. An act of war should be treated and responded as such.
So here we are today...short of the 10 year anniversary only to dedicate a new memorial that will not include first responders, their families, those that escaped with their Hyde's nor their families yet two Presidents will be present along with three NY mayors and other associated politicians and no religious representatives...Now if my memory serves me well...I'll bet that when the world witnessed live on TV the 9/11 events... the most spoken words would have been..."Oh My God"!!! So to exclude God and or religion from this dedication on the anniversary of one of the fewest days on earth when humanity spoke as one...we must yield once again to the politics of it all instead of the one we all looked up to, to help us emotionally get through the day...our God, whoever ever he may be. Shame on us all..................................      
WTC, New York,...
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:25 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 45):
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 44):
Is it possible they knew about the coming attacks and sat back and let it happen? Sure, it's possible.

What gives you ground to accept that could possibly happen?

Unless it was only a handful of CIA agents, I don't see how a bunch of CIA agents could be part of this, say nothing, and have no moral dilemma. I mean, we see them as killers in movies sometimes, but almost every CIA agent is a human being just like you and I, and they probably would not let such a thing happen. No, the only real theory on this I buy is they had some knowledge of a possible attack and did not take it seriously (just like they don't take a lot of things seriously.) Unfortunately, this was the big one.
 
FoxTwo
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:49 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:39 am

This is well worth the watch. Click on the individual whose story - really is worth hearing. From the United Dispatcher who sent the "beware cockpit intrusion" message, or the ticket agents which checked the cowards in , please take 10 minutes out of your day and listen to their stories.

Do you think they have a right to be sensitive.?

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/09/06/sep....11.footnotes/index.html?hpt=hp_c1
F2
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Do You Avoid 9/11 Discussions?

Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:48 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 47):
Unless it was only a handful of CIA agents, I don't see how a bunch of CIA agents could be part of this, say nothing, and have no moral dilemma. I mean, we see them as killers in movies sometimes, but almost every CIA agent is a human being just like you and I, and they probably would not let such a thing happen. No, the only real theory on this I buy is they had some knowledge of a possible attack and did not take it seriously (just like they don't take a lot of things seriously.) Unfortunately, this was the big one.

I didn't say I believe that theory. I was drawing a distinction that some of them or parts of them are more plausible than the more extreme theories.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 817Dreamliiner, alfa164, Alias1024, c933103, FGITD, Google Adsense [Bot], N867DA, Number6, scbriml, winginit and 41 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos