dxing
Topic Author
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The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:49 am

Begin ranting…

As anyone who has read this forum for any length of time knows, I am not a fan of the fruit computer company. This was really re-enforced by events of this past week and a half. My daughters 3gs suddenly stopped getting service one evening last week. We called our service provider who did some checking and said the phone was receiving but no signal strength was present on the face and the “searching” function was constantly illuminated. No calls could be received or made, and no data could be received or transmitted as well. Our provider is not allowed to work on fruit filled equipment so their only suggestion was to take it to the fruit store. The next day I went in with phone and lo and behold inside the store, solid signal strength and no problems making or receiving calls and transmitting or receiving data. The greeter at the door gave me a big smile and said. “See, all you had to do was walk in the door and it fixed itself, our stuff is that good!!” Really, I’m not making that up, the greeter actually said that. I, of course, had my doubts gave the greeter a farewell and walked back out. I didn’t get 20 feet from the door and the signal strength began to drop until 100 feet away from the door it was back to searching for a network. It dawned on me that they must have a booster in the store. I walked back and explained my findings to the greeter who admitted that yes they did have a booster working in the store and that it was a shame the problem wasn’t really fixed. I asked if there was someone I could talk to about the situation and was told that I would have to make an appointment.

Now here is where the fun starts. I was told by the greeter that the appointments are 10 minutes in length which I thought was rather odd but made perfect sense later on. I asked if anyone ever missed their appointment. The greeter said yes, it happened all the time. So I asked if I could jump in when someone had missed their appointment and take their time. No, I was told if someone doesn’t show up then that is free time for the “repair” person. I put the word repair in quotations as “repair” in the fruit company store is quite different than what you or I might consider the definition of “repair” to be. Back to the 10 minute rule, the greeter explained that the repair person would wait the entire 10 minutes for the person to show before moving on to the next customer. Two things struck me as odd, what if there were a line of people waiting to have their equipment looked at, wouldn’t it create some tension if the repair person were to just sit there and stare back at them for 10 minutes? It almost sounded like something from a Monty Python sketch. Then I asked, what happens if the “repair” takes more than 10 minutes and everyone shows that day? Does the store stay open to accommodate those last in the repair line? This earned me another frown from the greeter and for a second I almost felt bad for breaking the greeter’s cheerfulness. The greeter said they had a few appointments open in the middle of the next day if I cared to make one. I explained that I had to work the next day and would not have time to come in nor would I have time anytime in the next few days. Wasn’t there some other way to get the phone looked at? I asked this because after 18 years in broadcasting, several as a broadcast engineer, the problem seemed fairly simple. A lead had most likely broken its solder connection to the antenna. The phone worked fine inside the store because it was being blasted by RF from the booster and no antenna was needed but that changed outside the store. It was almost text book. The greeter said the only way to get the phone looked at outside of an appointment was to do what was called a “drop”. Leave the phone behind and it would be looked at in the next two to three days. But, the greeter explained, I wouldn’t have the phone. I was hesitant to explain that since the phone didn’t work outside of the store, what difference did that make? I left it alone though and agreed to do the “drop”. The greeter took down my name, address, contact number, contact email, and what was wrong with the phone. This will become relevant later one. I left the store feeling that something was being accomplished, I couldn’t have been more in error.

Four days later my phone rings and it is a representative of the fruit company. I was expecting to hear that the phone had been fixed and was ready to be picked up. Guess again. The gentleman on the other end of the line proceeds to ask me what is wrong with the phone. Ignoring the fact I had already given this information to the cheerful greeter 4 days previous, I patiently explained the reception problem again. The gentleman on the phone said “well it looks like it has fixed itself as I’m getting a good strong signal as of right now”. It must be part of the script they are given in training is all I can figure. I hung my head as the realization became apparent that nothing about the phones problem had made it from the cheerful greeter to this gentleman. I explained it worked fine in the store, but take a walk out into the mall with it and see what happens. The gentleman on the phone replied that he wasn’t authorized to do that but that he thought a restore might fix the problem. Just the way he said the word “restore” as if it were a magical talisman seemed odd. I explained I did not think it was a software problem but rather a hardware problem as in a lead had come loose from the antenna. Wrong thing to say as he immediately started to address me as someone who obviously didn’t realize that this is the finest fruit on the planet, and much too sophisticated and well engineered and manufactured to ever suffer such a mundane fate. He explained again, as though talking to a 3 year old, tat a restore fixes the problem almost every time! Before I could question that thought process as it related to the phones current status he asked me if my contact info was backed up. I replied that I didn’t think so but wasn’t’ sure as this was my daughters phone and I had no way to contact her as he had her phone in front of him. His suggestion, make an appointment! I have surmised since that there is simply no way to get around the dreaded appointment. I was off the next day and my daughter was available so fortunately no one had to change their plans. The only difference between this gentleman and the greeter was that this gentleman suggested I make several appointments back to back in case it took longer than 10 minutes. Now it dawned on me how they managed their 10 minute intervals and didn’t feel pressured to finish up right away so as not to fall behind. The cheerful greeter had not explained this option to me.

The next day at the appointed time we showed up at the fruit store, and promptly got to wait 20 minutes before being seen. In addition another question was answered as I noticed that as soon as one person finish the next person was called up. No sitting there in a stare down for 10 minutes or less or perhaps they were already running behind. I was slightly taken aback at all the people that were there with various forms of fruit, all needing some sort of attention. I had been led to believe on this very forum that the product is virtually indestructible and always worked! No blue screens of death, or frozen to nearly absolute zero programs as has been implied here in the forum, yet here was virtually every sort of fruit you could imagine all suffering some sort of problem from not turning on at all, to turning on but not doing anything, to turning on and doing everything but what the person wanted the fruit to do! Just like many other pieces of electronic equipment I’ve ever had from a variety of manufacturers that I have been repeatedly told are just plain substandard in every way compared to the products of the fruit company!

Finally we were waived forward to the “repair” desk for our moment in the sun. My daughter’s phone info was backed up to her laptop (a Sony that has yet to give a single lick of trouble) and the magical restore was started. When the restore was finished the gentleman seeing us said, “that should do it!!” and proceeded to start to wrap up the paperwork. “Not so fast” I replied and told my daughter to take the phone for a walk to see if it was really fixed. The gentleman protested saying that there were people in line behind us waiting their turn. I looked at my phone, also a Sony that works like a champ, and said that we had signed up for 3 appointments and that left approximately 13 minutes before the time was up. I wanted to know the phone was actually fixed before I got cut loose. His reply, “Look at the signal strength, it’s not going to get anymore fixed than that!” to which I had to explain the original problem for a 3rd time!! My daughter took her walk and by the look on her face when she re-entered the store, the phone was not fixed. She told the gentleman that the farther she went from the store, the less signal strength she had till it dropped to “searching “ about 100 feet away from the door. The look on his face was something I wish I could have captured on film, a moment later I wish I could have captured my own look on film. “So, are we now ready to crack the case and check for a loose antenna lead?” I asked. His response amazed me even more than all the different types of fruit waiting to be fixed.

“We don’t fix that” he said. I’m pretty sure my jaw bounced off the counter top. At least my daughter said she saw something out of the corner of her eye fall down and come back up. I looked the gentleman in the eye and said, “you don’t fix what?” not believing what I knew I was about to hear. “We don’t fix the internal workings of the phone here in the store. The best I can offer you since the phone is out of warranty is the same phone for $199”. That, in a nutshell, was the “repair”! To say I was dumbfounded would be an understatement. I looked at him and in an even and calm tone said, “You’re telling me you don’t fix the products that you build and sell, and won’t allow my carrier to work on them either?” “That’s correct” he replied. “But you’re more than willing to sell me another phone for $200?” “That’s correct” he replied. I didn’t bother to ask if under this deal he would keep the broken phone, but I’m guessing he would, then the fruit company could refurbish it (actually repair it somewhere) and sell it to someone else! I courteously declined his offer and we left the store. Since then I have gone back to my carriers store, found out I was due an upgrade, got a new phone for myself (not a fruit phone),and given my daughter my Sony to use. It has a better camera on board than her fruit phone and almost always had better signal reception as well. Despite all this she wants a fruit phone 5 when they come out and I have told her she can save her pennies and pay for it herself as I will not spend any money on a company that either can’t, or won’t, offer repair of their own products.

Things I have learned from this experience? If you want to be a greeter at the fruit store it’s probably best that you remain ignorant of what goes on at the back of the store else you may lose your cheerfulness. As you probably noticed, I never referred to the person at the back of the store as a “repair person” since he never really “repaired” anything. I could have done the restore at my home and saved myself the frustration of having to visit the store. If he had told me over the phone that they don’t actually “repair” anything at the store, or if the cheerful greeter had been able to tell me that, I wouldn’t have wasted my time making an appointment. I’m still convinced it is a simple antenna lead connection that has come loose inside the phone. No matter now though, I’ve made arrangements with one of the several companies on line that buy old fruit phones either working or broken. If you are a fruit fan, more power to you, but this experience has solidified my thoughts that fruit products are the beneficiaries of a lot of hype and have no more substance to them than many other electronic products on the market today.

End of rant.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
jcs17
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:00 am

It's not Apple's fault that AT&T has the coverage Somalia Telecom. I sometimes hit dead spots in the remote, small suburb of Manhattan. I spent Hurricane Irene at my 60-somethings aunt's house in western Suffolk County... no service. None at all. I had to drive to Jericho Tpke. (for the locals) just to get three bars. The most amazing thing is that AT&T stores actually dot the area. It's shocking that AT&T would license stores for areas where they can barely get coverage. Talk about asinine.
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dxing
Topic Author
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:06 am

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 1):
It's not Apple's fault that AT&T has the coverage Somalia Telecom

Prior to the phone breaking down she had good service, as do all the family members, where we live. ATT's coverage is not the problem. The problem is with a company that either cannot or will not service what they sell.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
fruitbat
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:42 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 2):
Prior to the phone breaking down she had good service, as do all the family members, where we live. ATT's coverage is not the problem. The problem is with a company that either cannot or will not service what they sell.

Completely agree. I understand that the fruit company (love it!) base its small goods business model on the concepts of fashion and disposable electronics (as do many others, to be fair). So design it to oulast the warranty period, introduce the "new, better" version within 12 months and try to convince people to upgrade rather than repair should something go wrong (for them, new sales / upgrades = cheap, repair = expensive as the levels of miniaturisation and integration of the electronics make repair almost impossible......).

I fell for this when my first iPod (white, brick) battery life fell to 30 mins - I could have got a replacement battery fitted but it was almost as cheap to buy the next model (black, smaller brick) with a colour sceen, more capacity and more features......

I'm not saying it's right but it's their business model and in todays disposable society "repair" seems to be a dirty word......the only thing you can do is what you did and vote with your feet !!
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
 
planeguy727
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:38 am

In another example of "we don't fix it" - I have a time capsule wireless hard drive that was synced to auto backup the files from my laptop. It decided one day that it no longer wanted to work. Took to the "fruit store" as you call it. it appears to be a power issue - won't stay on. Was told I had the option to buy a new one, they don't repair, and they could not recover the stored data - despite this product being their recommended solution to avoiding data loss. I refused to buy a new one. What's the point of the back up if you won't attempt data recovery if the power to the back up fails.

The back up item should not be seen as disposable. Part of their unwillingness to service is that the device has a one piece plastic case - really have to break it go get inside and attempt a repair so that power could return and data could be accessed. Design probably intentional to drive further sales.

While I like my laptop, I think I'm done with any other fruit equipment. I am not seeking to give them hundreds of dollars every year or two.
I want to live in an old and converted 727...
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:17 pm

Cue Klaus in three...two...one...
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max999
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:45 pm

This is Apple's way of doing business - planned obsolescence! It's how they make the big $$$. If you don't like it, don't buy from them. However, most consumer electronic companies do the same thing, especially for mobile phones.

I personally don't think a lot of the phone components are engineered to go last beyond a year or two, which is perfect timing for a phone upgrade. This really sucks if you bought your phone unlocked at full price with no carrier subsidy.
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Pyrex
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:54 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
See, all you had to do was walk in the door and it fixed itself, our stuff is that good!!” Really, I’m not making that up, the greeter actually said that.

No need to explain, I am not surprised at all... you can see the smug on the employee's faces when you go inside a fruit store.

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
I was slightly taken aback at all the people that were there with various forms of fruit, all needing some sort of attention. I had been led to believe on this very forum that the product is virtually indestructible and always worked!

Same thing here. I have never purchased a fruit product and hope to never will, but I once had to spend an hour and a half of a sunny afternoon by the "Genius Bar" (can it get any more smug than that?) of a fruit store because a friend of mine had a problem with the laptop they had just fixed (basically the same problem reappearing) and there was a huge line of people with products that "just work" that somehow appeared to not be working. In her case, since their intended fix the first time around did not work (replace the whole hard drive) they were attempting the second "repair", replacing the motherboard (which in the case of a laptop basically means replacing the whole computer).

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 1):
It's not Apple's fault that AT&T has the coverage Somalia Telecom

Oh really? It isn't? So who decided to give AT&T the exclusive on the fruit phone in the first place?

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 4):
What's the point of the back up if you won't attempt data recovery if the power to the back up fails.

Not sure, but I am sure certain A.net members (ahem, *Klaus*) will somehow come up with an excuse, after consulting the handlers back in Palo Alto. Maybe you should have had a back-up for your back-up? Yes, that has to be it.
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Birdwatching
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:49 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7):
I am sure certain A.net members (ahem, *Klaus*) will somehow come up with an excuse

Yeah, where are they? They'll not only begin with a lengthy comment of how they have been using fruit products for about 37 years and without ever having the slightest doubt, but also they'll explain how the story described in the op is part of the "user experience" and it's not actually the fruit company who is wrong, but how YOU are wrong. It's not a bug, it's a feature. Just stay inside the damn store and your phone will work perfectly.

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Cadet57
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:54 pm

Wow an Apple thread where one of our rose goggle wearing German members hasn't chimed in to tell us we're all wrong and that Apple isn't to blame here!
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seb146
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:18 pm

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 1):
It's not Apple's fault that AT&T has the coverage Somalia Telecom.

I don't understand why people say things like this about AT&T. I have had them over 10 years and have only dropped calls early in my service with them. I have service all up and down the West Coast, Canada, Alaska, and Mexico. I went to San Francisco two months ago on the ferry and never dropped a call; full bars the whole time. I sent pics to my mom and uploaded to Facebook too.

People complain about AT&T service, but I notice those people also are using iPhone and iPad.

Back to the OP: I will never ever ever buy any Apple products for this very reason: Service. The people that work at the stores seem to have an ego the size of Alaska. They think they know it all but they really don't. I will stick to my PC laptop and desktop and Samsung cell phone (which still does everything iPhone does for a whole lot less!)
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Klaus
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:41 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
Begin ranting…

Okay. This did indeed read like a rather breathless one. It would have been a lot easier to read if you'd made a few more paragraphs every now and then.

Which makes it difficult to assess what the entire tone of the conversations in the store really was. In my experience giving store clerks (in general) a lot of attitude even before they've had the chance to help you substantially increases the risk of getting less than ideal service.

Hard to say under the circumstances if their attitude was really as inappropriate in context as you've reported it. If this is indeed the way it went down, they could have handled it better for sure.


That said, to the substance of the issue:

The iPhone 3GS (like any other modern smartphone) uses a highly integrated motherboard crammed full of BGA and other SMD components:


(Source: ifixit.com)

Repairing of microelectronics on this level of integration is extremely challenging, even with high-end industrial tools and thus generally impractical. The upside is that – if properly designed – it is also a lot more reliable and durable than the lower-integrated electronics of earlier times.

The Antenna is actually a flex circuit with a miniature coaxial connector plugged into the motherboard:


(Source: ifixit.com)

The actual antenna is on the bottom of the assembly, with the connector visible to the left, as far as I can tell. The rest is the connector / speaker / microphone assembly with its own ribbon connector to the right.

Flex circuits have lots of advantages, among them again reliability and durability, but if one should actually get broken, it's not practical to try fixing it either.

Reception can suffer for several different reasons, among them being software issues, defective RF chips (transceiver modules or the baseband processor itself) or indeed a broken antenna line, which could happen on the motherboard, at the coaxial plug or within the antenna flex circuit itself.

If you're up for it, you might indeed try to open it and check if you can find anything amiss (a very good magnifying glass or a microscope can be helpful when looking for mechanical defects).

But most likely the fix would consist of replacing the antenna / connector assembly or the motherboard (or both).

ifixit has not just teardowns of most Apple devices, they're also selling spare parts:
iPhone 3GS Teardown - iFixit


Which returns us to your experience in the Apple Store if that's what it was (unless you went to this kind of store, which would actually explain a lot ).

A few remarks:

• dealing with the reception problems:

The AT&T network appears to be a major source of trouble for Apple in the US. The level of complaints which seems to be standard in the US is not what people experience over here (my 3GS works as well in the german T-Mobile network as any other phone). So it is quite possible that Apple Stores get a very high level of reception complaints which are actually AT&T problems in reality and which they cannot fix.

Furthermore, some people manipulate their iPhones by "jailbreaking" and "unlocking" them, the latter involving the insertion of a manipulated firmware into the baseband processor which is handling the actual network connection. This can of course lead to reception malfunctions if something goes wrong with it.

Which would not excuse them completely dismissing an actual device defect (if that is indeed what they did), but it would explain why they may have been reluctant to take your assertion that "a wire must have come loose" at face value right away, particularly since it is highly likely that almost all such user assumptions turn out to be wrong in the end (I've got my own experiences doing customer support for software and devices and this is quite in line with my own experience).

So doing a software restore was in fact a sensible proposal (even if you didn't seem to be aware of the implications), and asking whether the contacts had been backed up was also actually helpful.


• repair costs:

The device was out of warranty, so your expectation that there would be some cost involved to fix it is of course correct. Although when dealing with manufacturer representatives sometimes they don't insist on it, but this can again depend on the kind of attitude they get.

Where you seem to suffer from a misconception is that the offer of a replacement iPhone for $199 was in any way outrageously expensive.

Many people believe that they're "buying" an iPhone for $199 from their network provider and that that was actually what the device cost. That is just not true, however.

Please compare:

iPhone 4 - Buy the iPhone 4 for AT&T or Verizon - Black or White - Apple Store (U.S.)

You can get an iPhone 4 for $199 or $299 when closing a 2-year contract with AT&T or Verizon which actually means that you're making a down payment for the phone at the nominal sum and you'll be paying the rest of the actual price through a portion of your monthly AT&T or Verizon bill!

How much that rest actually is is by now openly visible here:

iPhone 4 - Unlocked (GSM) - 16GB Black - Apple Store (U.S.)

The unlocked iPhone 4 actually costs $649 or $749!

So the network provider is actually giving you a loan on the remaining $450 which you'll have to pay off through the 2-year contract. Or you can get the unlocked phone and a cheaper contract without that loan repayment portion.

The iPhone 3GS has had a similar actual cost when it came out, so they've effectively offered to get you a new device at $400-$500 off the actual cost, which is not that bad a deal, considering that the replacement iPhone will also have a brand-new battery in exchange for the probably well-used one in the defective device, which would at some point need a replacement battery for $79. (If you're doing the replacing yourself, you can get the battery quite a bit cheaper, but with no warranty and you'll have to spend your own time on it.)

Mine is still holding up quite well after more than two years, but it won't last forever either.

A repair of the actual defect may involve a replacement of the most expensive part: The motherboard. Together with the working hours, handling, testing and so on, $199 is not outrageous. In some cases it may be more than the actual cost to Apple, in others it may be less. They apparently charge the average and are done with it, not least because you won't need to wait until they've gotten around to analyze your actual device's problem but can get you a working one right away and check out your old one when they get around to it (this may not be done in your local store either, not least because problem analysis may require specialized equipment which may not be practical to have in every store).

The likelihood that it is actually a simpler cause exists, but I fear that likelihood is very small. You might check for yourself as described above. Maybe you're lucky. Maybe not.

I personally would probably have a look myself and if I couldn't find the cause I might take the offered replacement.



• appointment scheduling:

When you're managing scarce resources, there is no perfect solution. You can either piss off some people by trying to maintain punctual appointments and refuse to let people jump in, or you can piss off other people by trying to wedge in people as they come and miss scheduled appointments.

There is unfortunately no perfect solution satisfying everyone all the time, whichever choice you take. Apple has apparently opted for trying to be on time.

This is one you can't really "win" either way.



• number of observed customers in need of support / product repair:

How many manufacturers do you know which actually have brick-and-mortar facilities where you can get free support? How is that a negative?

It does, of course, pose the risk that people might get the impression that their products have horrendously bad reliability just by several people actually showing up with servicing needs. Particularly since the satisfied customers have a habit of not standing in the same line to provide an actually accurate percentage estimate.

Apple obviously takes on that risk, most other manufacturers don't. Which one is better for the customer?

There are many millions of Apple computers and devices out there. Most of their users happen to not need repairs as far as I can see.

I've had several Macs, iPods, iPhone and iPad so far during the past more than 15 years and across all of them I've had one minor defect in total, which was promptly fixed on warranty with minimum complications. Even with that I'm certainly not representative for everybody, but overall customer satisfaction with Apple products is exceptionally high within each of their segments, so my experience is probably not unique either.


In closing, if the Apple Store clerks actually handled your case badly without them getting unduly harrassed, you can and probably should take this to Apple support. They do take customer satisfaction seriously, even if they will not go with absolutely every (possibly misconceived) customer expectation. But actually improper treatment of Store customers is a significant issue as far as I'm aware and does get followed-up internally.

So if you think that objectively it is warranted as things went down, lodge a complaint.


I hope I could help you a little bit, even though I can't really fix the phone from here.

And whatever some people may believe, I've got no connection with Apple other than being a mostly satisfied customer who's sometimes taking his own free time trying to help out others.

All the best and good luck!
 
Klaus
Posts: 21496
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:08 pm

Quoting fruitbat (Reply 3):
Completely agree. I understand that the fruit company (love it!) base its small goods business model on the concepts of fashion and disposable electronics (as do many others, to be fair). So design it to oulast the warranty period, introduce the "new, better" version within 12 months and try to convince people to upgrade rather than repair should something go wrong (for them, new sales / upgrades = cheap, repair = expensive as the levels of miniaturisation and integration of the electronics make repair almost impossible......).

How does that reconcile with them providing by far the longest upgrade support for their mobile devices in the industry?

My over-two-years-old iPhone 3GS came with iOS 3, got a free upgrade to iOS 4 last year (and quite a few intermediate updates in between and since) and is due to get iOS 5 in a few weeks, being just as up-to-date as the upcoming iPhone 5.

The 3GS may(?) not get iOS 6 after that, but by then it will have been up to date during three years after release.

If Apple is indeed pushing me to buy a new device by "planned obsolescence", they're doing an extraordinarily crappy job of that!

Quoting fruitbat (Reply 3):
I fell for this when my first iPod (white, brick) battery life fell to 30 mins

How old was it by then, exactly?

Batteries don't live forever - in any device. In my experience so far, Apple's batteries seem to have a useful lifetime of about four years of regular use (some even longer), which as far as I can tell is pretty good.

Quoting fruitbat (Reply 3):
I could have got a replacement battery fitted but it was almost as cheap to buy the next model (black, smaller brick) with a colour sceen, more capacity and more features......

How so?

Battery replacement for the "regular" iPods costs $49 or $59, respectively (the iPod Touch's costs as much as the iPhone's, unsurprisingly).

I don't seem to remember the iPod Color being that cheap!

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 4):

In another example of "we don't fix it" - I have a time capsule wireless hard drive that was synced to auto backup the files from my laptop. It decided one day that it no longer wanted to work. Took to the "fruit store" as you call it. it appears to be a power issue - won't stay on.

There was a warranty extension program some time ago – you might want to re-check whether yours may be eligible.

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 4):
Was told I had the option to buy a new one, they don't repair, and they could not recover the stored data - despite this product being their recommended solution to avoiding data loss. I refused to buy a new one. What's the point of the back up if you won't attempt data recovery if the power to the back up fails.

I think you're suffering from a massive misconception about what a "backup" actually is!

A backup is another copy of your original data which are already stored at their primary location.

There is no magical pixie dust sprinkled over backup devices which somehow makes them totally immune to failure. Every backup device is as prone to failure as any original working drive (save some specification differences with some specific drives, but even these differences are just marginal).

A backup is a copy which will likely still be there if your primary storage should fail for some reason. That is all it is.

It is even possible that the backup device may accidentally fail at the same time as your primary storage (lightning strikes or fires may destroy both at the same time, but even accidentally they may happen to fail at the same time, even though such a coincidence is extremely rare).

What a backup does is give you an opportunity to restore your primary copy. And if the backup should fail, you can restore the backup from the original.

If you store the only copy you've got either on your working drive or on the Time Capsule, you effectively have no backup!

"Backup" inherently means that you've got more than one redundant copy on separate devices.

Absolutely any harddisk can fail!

And while most harddisks outlive their regularly scheduled replacement (usually for being too small or too slow), some will die during regular use. That is exactly why actual backups are so important.

There's a saying: "If you're keeping only one copy of your data, you essentially declare that data to be worthless to you."

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 4):
The back up item should not be seen as disposable. Part of their unwillingness to service is that the device has a one piece plastic case - really have to break it go get inside and attempt a repair so that power could return and data could be accessed.

Nonsense. Like most devices with live grid power touchable within the case, the inside is not user-seviceable, but of course it can be opened:

Disassembling Apple Time Capsule Lower Case - iFixit

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 4):
Design probably intentional to drive further sales.

No. Design intended to prevent less-than-competent users electrocuting themselves while poking around with the power supply PCB open to touch (switching PSUs can hold major zapping power even after pulling the plug).

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7):
In her case, since their intended fix the first time around did not work (replace the whole hard drive) they were attempting the second "repair", replacing the motherboard (which in the case of a laptop basically means replacing the whole computer).

Replacing "part" of a harddrive is not really practical. And very similarly to the iPhone above, a notebook motherboard doesn't have many components that can be repaired nowadays. One may lament that fact, but microelectronics have progressed to a massive increase in performance which would have been completely esoteric looked at from earlier times, but while in bygone times a CPU could be a socketed 40-Pin component which was easy to handle even with two left hands, modern CPUs can have in excess of a thousand(!) pins or balls/pads for soldering for increased reliability and reduced bulk and weight.

Times change. And compromises have to be made with progress, unfortunately.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7):
So who decided to give AT&T the exclusive on the fruit phone in the first place?

There was no actual choice in the US. GSM is the only global standard. And AT&T was the only US GSM carrier big enough to allow for the exclusive contract necessary to establish the iPhone in the US market.

The fragmented US cellphone situation left Apple no choice, effectively.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 10):
People complain about AT&T service, but I notice those people also are using iPhone and iPad.

Which happen to be the devices which see most of the mobile data traffic as well, so the correlation is unsurprising.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 10):
Back to the OP: I will never ever ever buy any Apple products for this very reason: Service. The people that work at the stores seem to have an ego the size of Alaska. They think they know it all but they really don't.

Being convinced of the qualities of their products is obviously part of their job description – but most people appear to experience the Apple Store clerks as generally helpful and friendly. But sometimes it may have to do with people's own attitudes as well.

I never assume that clerks know everything there is, but even if I'm pretty sure I know better, I don't try to steamroll them with what I think I know but try to engage them in a way that actually allows them to help me, even if I have to convince them that I may in fact have some pertinent information or knowledge.

Clerks are people, not doorknobs (at least in general ). Constructive communication almost always helps getting decent service.
 
Springbok747
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:29 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):

Sorry to hear about your bad experience man. As much as I hate to admit it..the fruit stores in this part of the world have great customer service. I don't own..or plan to own any fruit labeled stuff..but unfortunately my sister went over to the dark side and has one of those laptops. It started acting up a bit (clicking noises etc..so I figured the problem was with the hard drive)..so I took it to one of the stores (after making an appointment), they had a look, and fixed the problem right therein the store..i.e. they replaced the hard drive. As it was still under warranty..it was free..and I didn't have to wait or anything. The whole thing was done in about 30 minutes.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 10):
The people that work at the stores seem to have an ego the size of Alaska. They think they know it all but they really don't. I

I've noticed this with the US stores. Recently, I went to one at the Mall of Georgia in Atlanta..the store was pretty busy. I was approached by one of those greeters..and when I said that I was just looking..he curtly told me "hurry up, if you don't intend on buying anything".  Wow!

I mean...seriously..with an attitude like that, how can he expect potential customers to buy their icrap?! I simply walked out..never going back to that store again.
אני תומך בישראל
 
Klaus
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:47 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 13):
I've noticed this with the US stores. Recently, I went to one at the Mall of Georgia in Atlanta..the store was pretty busy. I was approached by one of those greeters..and when I said that I was just looking..he curtly told me "hurry up, if you don't intend on buying anything".

That is indeed unacceptable and deserves a kick in the butt. Which an official complaint might send his way.
 
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Tugger
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:47 pm

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 1):
It's not Apple's fault that AT&T has the coverage Somalia Telecom. I sometimes hit dead spots in the remote, small suburb of Manhattan. I spent Hurricane Irene at my 60-somethings aunt's house in western Suffolk County... no service. None at all. I had to drive to Jericho Tpke. (for the locals) just to get three bars. The most amazing thing is that AT&T stores actually dot the area. It's shocking that AT&T would license stores for areas where they can barely get coverage. Talk about asinine.

Actually I find the at&t network to be quite good, and funnily enough it my friends with Verizon that can't call from their homes. Now of course I know that this is just because of where towers are and some bad luck for this area but I don't go saying that Verizon sucks. I think it has become popular to say at&t sucks now but it started because they had the honor/problem of being the first and only source for the smash hit, must have, data intensive, super popular, inexperienced at designing cell phone antennas, iPhone.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
Which makes it difficult to assess what the entire tone of the conversations in the store really was. In my experience giving store clerks (in general) a lot of attitude even before they've had the chance to help you substantially increases the risk of getting less than ideal service.

Actually, that is no excuse. Their are all kinds of customers but a company must strive to provide only one type of service: Excellent. Most people that are seeking "service" of some type are likely to not be in a good mood and it is up to the service person to deal with this. An upset customer cannot excuse poor service.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):

Just one question: why does Apple use pentalobular screws? There really is only one reason that I can think of.

Tugg
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comorin
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:55 pm

I just love the term 'Fruit' !!! You heard it here on a.net first. dxing, you should copyright the term before the Fruit Company decides to do it..

dxing, thanks for a fascinating post that deserves a wider audience. Well written!

Klaus's defense of the fruit company is quite masterly and he deserves a crate of bananas in the mail!
 
Klaus
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:01 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 15):
Actually, that is no excuse. Their are all kinds of customers but a company must strive to provide only one type of service: Excellent.

Of course. But the more stress people are subjected to, the more likely it gets that they don't meet this ideal.

And not unnecessarily increasing the clerks' stress level is one of my strategies to get the best service out of them, even if ideally they should be just as helpful when I'd dump my grumpiest mood on them. I may give that a try once I'll have moved to an ideal world eventually...   

I've had only very little interaction with Apple Store clerks over here and have not witnessed any inappropriate behaviour on their part so far. Of course Apple declares to provide exceptional service and so their employees failing to meet that standard should not be accepted.

Quoting tugger (Reply 15):
Just one question: why does Apple use pentalobular screws? There really is only one reason that I can think of.

Of course it is to discourage users fiddling with the insides of devices which are declared not user-serviceable such as the iPhone and the MacBook Air.

They use regular screws on devices which are user-serviceable inside, such as the MacBook Pro. Or an entirely screwless latch on the Mac Pro.

My iMac doesn't have any visible screws on the outside except for the RAM cover, and that has a regular screw (on the bottom edge).

[Edited 2011-09-10 16:09:24]
 
Klaus
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:07 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 16):
Klaus's defense of the fruit company is quite masterly and he deserves a crate of bananas in the mail!

If you actually had my home address, that would pose a whole bunch of troubling privacy questions of its own, as welcome as the bananas would have been...!   

Little to "defend" there as you can see, however. Things just aren't quite as simple as one might think at first glance, and if there should in fact have been inappropriate behaviour, why would I defend that?
 
BAViscount
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:21 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 16):
I just love the term 'Fruit' !!! You heard it here on a.net first. dxing, you should copyright the term before the Fruit Company decides to do it..

Well I read this whole thread thinking that the "fruit" being referred to was a Blackberry! What?? It's a fruit!!   
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Klaus
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:04 am

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
Begin ranting…

Just thought of one unlikely, but theoretically possible scenario which is easy to check:

If there should have been a GSM ("2G") outage in the area but UMTS ("3G") should still be operational, a phone would not find a network any more if it had its 3G capability disabled (unless near a remaining GSM repeater) while all other phones with 3G still on would switch over automatically and still work.

Is the iPhone's 3G switch enabled? (Settings -> General -> Enable 3G)

As I said, this is an unlikely scenario all in all, but in that case the device could actually be entirely functional.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:03 am

The fruit stuff uses the same guts as everything else...as well as the same suppliers. Where they have won the market is form and function...They look beautiful and, for the most part work as advertised...except, (for me), anything to do with computing.

I had an ipad2 for about 2 weeks...it was so pretty...but I just couldn't do what I wanted with it. Many of the sites I visited were unusable and since I do business online, this was unacceptable. I also had to pay for apps that were free for my Android phone. There are no expansion slots or USB support. I also hate software keyboards so, though it was pretty and Angry Birds looked awesome, I traded it in for an ASUS Transformer.

The ASUS, for less money, has the same sized screen, a removable keyboard, a microSD slot and a mini HDMI port on the Tablet, 2 USB, (full size), ports on the keyboard a full sized SD card slot and it houses another battery, doubling my already impressive battery life. It also looks pretty good.

Basically, I bought the device and I get to do whatever I want with it...without having to register with itunes or asking permission from anybody. I can store stuff anywhere, share data with any device...I have the freedom to use the machine I bought however I choose. I own it, I decide.

I got the ipad as a present from my sister in law, who drank the koolaid probably 30 years ago. She has owned every fruity product available in that time. She currently has an ipad2, iphone4, and whatever the latest desktop computers are.

She loves the stuff...she understands how to use it and it works for her. That's cool...but she's also not a moron...she admits that the stuff locks up on a regular basis, (something I observed as well), but it doesn't blue screen because there isn't a blue screen...it just stops working requiring a hard boot.

Her phone stopped ringing for a whole day, though she could make calls with it, if you called her, it went straight to voice mail. The volume was up but no ring. She rebooted and it worked again...but she went all day without getting any of her calls. She said it happens somewhat regularly.

Yes, it was the phone, not the service.

That's not to say my pc's or android things don't screw up...sure they do...but nobody claims they don't...that's the difference. Fruity users insist their stuff is more reliable, more stable, more user friendly, more...well...everything..and that's why it has to be more expensive...even though it uses the same bits as everything else.

Years ago, they went from proprietary hardware to exactly the same hardware, (supposedly the stuff that was way inferior and less reliable), as pc's. So while it may look shinier, it's the same thing...an imac is a pc with different software.

So drink the koolaid...I'm happy that the stuff makes you happy...but please stop trying to convince me that the fruity stuff is somehow magically better...it's not...because it's the same thing...except more expensive.
What the...?
 
dxing
Topic Author
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:32 am

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 8):
but also they'll explain how the story described in the op is part of the "user experience" and it's not actually the fruit company who is wrong, but how YOU are wrong


As usual, you hit the nail on the head. As Klaus's reply shows, it's not the fruit companies fault, it's not the service provider's fault, it's my fault! In a way he is right. I was stupid enough to buy the product for my daughter in the first place.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
Which makes it difficult to assess what the entire tone of the conversations in the store really was



Since I made no mention of what I said when I walked in the store and described the problem to the greeter you would be right, but for some reason you felt compelled to continue with:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
In my experience giving store clerks (in general) a lot of attitude even before they've had the chance to help you substantially increases the risk of getting less than ideal service.


You don't know what I said or didn't say other than what I have written here. Anyone who knows me, and there are more than a few here on A.net, I'm sure would tell you that under most circumstances I'm courteous to a fault. Even more interesting is that I don't find it odd that you attack me personally in the first paragraph of your post.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
The Antenna is actually a flex circuit with a miniature coaxial connector plugged into the motherboard:


Which means it can break, and more importantly be replaced.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
Reception can suffer for several different reasons, among them being software issues, defective RF chips (transceiver modules or the baseband processor itself) or indeed a broken antenna line, which could happen on the motherboard, at the coaxial plug or within the antenna flex circuit itself.


Since the reception was just fine inside the store everything save the antenna would be pretty much exempt from your diagnosis.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
The AT&T network appears to be a major source of trouble for Apple in the US.


The network was working just fine as three other phones and several computers were having no trouble receiving cell phone signals and connecting with the in home wireless network.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
So doing a software restore was in fact a sensible proposal (even if you didn't seem to be aware of the implications), and asking whether the contacts had been backed up was also actually helpful.


Since the problem was one of reception, and it had been proven that the phone did not work outside the store but worked well inside the store the first and foremost suspect part would be the antenna and its connection inside the phone.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
When you're managing scarce resources,


Resources in the form of human help were not a problem in the store. Every station at the "repair" counter was manned. What is evidently scarce is personnel that are trained in actual diagnosis and repair of any particular item.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
I've had several Macs, iPods, iPhone and iPad so far during the past more than 15 years and across all of them I've had one minor defect in total, which was promptly fixed on warranty with minimum complications.


I've had computers and phones from different manufacturers, only a few have had problems, almost all of my own doing, and all of them were repaired. AT&T actually has a repair store not to far from my home where they will repair those items they are allowed to work on. Unfortunately the fruit company doesn't want them to repair their items.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
A repair of the actual defect may involve a replacement of the most expensive part:


But you wouldn't know that unless you took a look. At that point then the customer could decide whether or not they wished to pay the price to get their item repaired or replace it with a new item. There is no denying that the fruit company actually does repair items as you can go to their website and buy refurbished items.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
In closing, if the Apple Store clerks actually handled your case badly without them getting unduly harrassed, you can and probably should take this to Apple support. They do take customer satisfaction seriously, even if they will not go with absolutely every (possibly misconceived) customer expectation. But actually improper treatment of Store customers is a significant issue as far as I'm aware and does get followed-up internally.


I made no claim I was mistreated nor did I harass any store employee. From what I could discern they were just following company policy, a policy that is very badly flawed. Imagine if your car broke down outside of the warranty and the car manufactuer told you they didn't service the car that they designed and manufactured, but would happily sell you another! The example is extreme but valid. As I said up front, I find no surprise in the fact that you first attack me with no facts whatsoever other than what I have written (and you evidently don't even like the way in which it was written) nor that you would find no fault whatsoever in the companies policies.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
And whatever some people may believe, I've got no connection with Apple other than being a mostly satisfied customer who's sometimes taking his own free time trying to help out others.


Klaus, what you have done is once again served up a tall glass of chilled:




as I said in the OP, feel free to continue to support the fruit company if you wish. But the idea that they produce an infallible product that is superior to all others as you and several others have promoted for many years here, has once again been shown to be nothing more than hype with no substance.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Geezer
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:17 am

[quote=dxing,reply=0]Begin ranting…

Dxing..........

I really think you missed your "calling" ! You should have been a writer; that was the best written, most humorous post I have read thus far on this forum. I can appreciate your frustration. I have also read many of your posts, and I can tell you, we do think alike, re: "some things".

Having said all that...............I happen to own quite a few "fruit products", and overall, I'm exceedingly pleased with the service I have had from them. ( And from the several "fruit stores" I have been to )

I look at it this way; when a person needs a computer, a music player, whatever, you are faced with two choices; you can buy a Mac, ( at the "fruit store" ), or you can buy................a PC; think about what I just said.......what is a "PC" ? A computer that runs the "windows" OS; and who makes "PC's" ? the answer is........Everyone ! I think more people produce PC's than make vacuum cleaners ! BTW, when talking about PC's, the term "makes" or "manufactures" is actually rather misleading; all these brand names we hear about, Dell, Acer, etc etc etc etc don't actually "make" PC's, they just buy a HD from one source, some memory from another source, a power supply here, a case there, then have a plant "somewhere" putting all this "stuff" together into a finished product. Apple does almost the same thing, but with a difference. They actually design their own OS, ( which I might add, at the traditional "end of the day" is why most satisfied Mac users buy Apple computers, over and over again. ) Because they LOVE OS X nine times better than anything Microsoft has ever come up with yet !

I might add, I'm one of those people. Before I go any farther, I should tell you this; as I've already mentioned, I'm fully aware that you are a very well educated and very intelligent person; you are doubtless about 9 times ahead of me on both counts. But I can almost guarantee you this........on the very same day you were encountering all that frustration with those idiots in the "fruit store" ( you really need to get a copyright on that ). there were several thousands of equally frustrated computer users, being equally frustrated with problems encountered with all of those myriad "brands" of PC's which are so numerous we can't even keep up with them all.

Think about what all these many products consist of; as Klaus has so eloquently pointed out, we're talking about very complex "stuff" here ! ( It's a major miracle to me that any of it works ! ) It's true that Apple goes about the business in quite a different manner than most;

The iPOD for example; Apple comes out with it in the beginning, then "everyone else" spends the next 10 years trying to copy the idea, and cash in on the "demand" that the "fruit product" created in the first place. I challenge anyone on this forum reading this, to name one product that has has "spawned" an entire industry as the iPod has, with hundreds of companies making iPod "skins, iPod this and IPod that; that one Apple product has created 10 times more jobs, made thousands of people rich..............and I might add. my dear old iPod Photo which must be growing a long white beard by now, is still "plugging along", original battery, works like it did the day I bought it. ( If the thing ever quits, I'm having it framed and will hang it on my wall in a place of honor ! ) ( Luv my 'Pod ! )


Here's my "frustrating experience" with the "fruit store", ( Indianapolis ) I live in a very wooded area; very "rural"; we had this storm cell pass through 3 or 4 yrs ago; I was just coming through the trees from putting my Kubota in the shed, when KABOOM ! Loudest damned lightning bolt I have ever heard, or hope to ever hear; there were blue flashes of light all around me; to say I was scared "s....less" would be an understatement ! But after realizing I was in fact still alive, I went in the house, started checking everything out, everything seemed to work, except my Mac; it still turned on, it would still "do things", but it wouldn't connect to the internet. So, a week or so later, I drove the 60 miles to Indianapolis, went to the "fruit store", ( TIP: always go EARLY as possible in am ) this was all a "while back".........no ten minute BS back then; the "genius" spent an hour testing my Mac ( mirrored door model for you Mac Addicts ) Finally after checking everything that's easily "fixable" his verdict was........we only work on them free for 4 yrs, and this one's about 6 yrs old; so take it to a commercial repair place. I still have the thing, the HD still works, it just can't connect to the internet, and it's not cost effective to fix it. So I bought this iMac, and it's been plugging along now for the last 5 or 6 yrs. Oh.............for the first few years, there was no broadband connection available "out here", so the damned modem would crapout every time we had a storm and I neglected to unhook the phone line from the Mac; the Mac dealer in Bloomington replaced the modem 4 times over about 3 yrs. and every time, all it cost me was the 40 mile trip to Bloomington and back; ( sure glad it wasn't a PC ! )

BTW, just as I expected, Klaus has explained it all 10 times better than I ever could, ( mainly because Klaus is about 19 times more knowledgeable about computers than I am. ( Thanks yet again Klaus ! )

So, will the endless on-going "bru-haha" over Apple Vs PC be put to rest by all of these stories from "fruit haters" and "fruit lovers" ? I hardly think so ! Or......not a chance ! But I must confess, I really enjoyed reading dxing's "rant" ! By far the most entertaining "rant" to date on this forum.

And that's MY word !

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
Klaus
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:12 pm



Quoting dxing (Reply 22):
You don't know what I said or didn't say other than what I have written here. Anyone who knows me, and there are more than a few here on A.net, I'm sure would tell you that under most circumstances I'm courteous to a fault. Even more interesting is that I don't find it odd that you attack me personally in the first paragraph of your post.

Please put yourself in my shoes:

Your original post can very well have been intended to be something else, but as it actually is, it reads like the equivalent of a breathless high-pressure rant performed with bright-red head and a raised voice so everyone will hear how horribly you've been wronged.

When I'm writing a post, I of course know what my real mood is, what my real intentions are and what the real events were which I'm describing.

But what everybody else sees is just what's actually on the screen. My actual attitude and mood and the actual events are simply unknown to anybody else reading it, so they can only judge by what I've actually written and what mood the actual text conveys.

Yes, I don't know what exactly went down in the store. And I don't know you personally. Which is why I was actually very cautious about passing judgment on the situation. I have clearly stated that if the tone and responses in the situation had in fact been exactly as you've described them, that the store clerks didn't handle it properly in some ways.

I also described the possibility that less than ideal service can have to do with the way the clerks have been addressed in the first place, in case you maybe laid the pressure on a bit thicker than you thought you did.

Nowhere have I drawn a final conclusion or passed definitive judgment, as I simply don't have the information I'd need for that.

When you're looking at your own post again with maybe a little more distanced perspective and then at my post with what I've actually written, maybe you can understand my point there.

Quoting dxing (Reply 22):
As Klaus's reply shows, it's not the fruit companies fault, it's not the service provider's fault, it's my fault!

That is absolutely wrong and incorrect. I have nowhere made such a claim.

Quoting dxing (Reply 22):
I made no claim I was mistreated nor did I harass any store employee. From what I could discern they were just following company policy, a policy that is very badly flawed. Imagine if your car broke down outside of the warranty and the car manufactuer told you they didn't service the car that they designed and manufactured, but would happily sell you another! The example is extreme but valid.

You have completely ignored the fact that that is actually not what they've done.

The Apple Store clerk did not offer to "sell you a new iPhone". That is simply a misrepresentation. The price for a new phone would be $600-$700 as I've explained above and which you've completely ignored, apparently.

What he was talking about is the maximum repair fee for out-of-warranty iPhones, which is indeed $199 for all iPhone models:
Apple - Support - Service Answer Center

See the section My iPhone is not eligible for warranty service. What are my service options?:

Quote:
When setting up out-of-warranty service, Apple will request credit card pre-authorisation for the maximum service fee listed above. This amount will be deducted from your credit limit. The final service fee we charge will be determined during testing and may be less than the service fee listed above.

This is clearly public information.

So in effect they offered you exactly what you wanted – if it would have turned out that just reconnecting the antenna would have solved the problem, you'd probably have paid even less, but even a complete motherboard replacement would still have cost you less than a third of a new phone (capped maximum fee).

(Initially I had actually thought it was a flat fee which it actually isn't, on closer inspection.)

If they would have chosen to give you a new phone instead of your repaired one, it would even have a fresh battery as far as I'm aware.

So what exactly is your problem with that policy? It seems reasonable and actually very closely in line with what you actually wanted all along.

Quoting dxing (Reply 22):
But the idea that they produce an infallible product that is superior to all others as you and several others have promoted for many years here, has once again been shown to be nothing more than hype with no substance.

Where have I claimed such a thing? Where?

I have taken quite a bit of my own free time trying to help you along in resolving the apparent defect of your daughter's device (which is undisputed - flying in the face of the prejudiced judgment you couldn't help yourself passing on me).

Thanks for the kick in the teeth in return, complete with a good helping of completely unwarranted personal prejudice on the side and with the usual suspects jumping in with glee (and with zero constructive contributions, as usual).

My goodness. Why do I even bother?  Yeah sure

[Edited 2011-09-11 06:14:11]
 
Klaus
Posts: 21496
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:06 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 21):
The ASUS, for less money, has the same sized screen, a removable keyboard, a microSD slot and a mini HDMI port on the Tablet, 2 USB, (full size), ports on the keyboard a full sized SD card slot and it houses another battery, doubling my already impressive battery life. It also looks pretty good.

That is a mistake some people make – the iPad is not a laptop. If a laptop is explicitly what you need, get one.

If you need an iPad, get one.

Nothing to do with the tired "kool aid" idea – getting something that is wrong for what you need is always a bad idea, regardless of what it is.

Simply get what you actually need. And don't care what other people say or think of you. If it really works well for you, it's been the right decision either way.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:48 pm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 23):

The iPOD for example; Apple comes out with it in the beginning, then "everyone else" spends the next 10 years trying to copy the idea, and cash in on the "demand" that the "fruit product" created in the first place. I challenge anyone on this forum reading this, to name one product that has has "spawned" an entire industry

Sony Walkman, anyone? The television? RADIO? The model T? And more relevant to this forum, the Wright Flyer.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 23):
I look at it this way; when a person needs a computer, a music player, whatever, you are faced with two choices; you can buy a Mac, ( at the "fruit store" ), or you can buy................a PC; think about what I just said.......what is a "PC" ? A computer that runs the "windows" OS; and who makes "PC's" ? the answer is........Everyone !

You do realize that a Mac is an Apple branded PC, right? And while I don't want to borrow one of Klaus' catchphrases, but you do realize that the Mac can also run Windows, which, by your logic, makes it a PC. However, that is perfectly okay, because they are all PERSONAL COMPUTERS in the end.

And no, not all PCs run windows. Many run some form of Unix, and some even lesser known operating systems.
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wingman
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:19 pm

The fruit haters give poor Klaus so much grief and talk about drinking the Kool-Aid. The only problem with that angle is that Apple's products consistently rank highest in terms of quality, support, and customer satisfaction not just from the millions of idiots that buy them but also expert trade review magazines, industry analysts, and ultimately...buyers of Apple shares. For every person like DXing that has a bad experience with Apple there are 3 or 4 that have a bad experience with a competing product. It's just the facts folks, you might seduce a million sheep here and there with slick advertising or a sleek design, but to seduce hundreds of millions of people across the globe over a full ten year span is simply not possible unless your products actually kick the living shit out the competition. And that's what Apple does. It's not only a legendary brand, it's also a benchmark for quality and service.
 
Pyrex
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:02 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 26):

Quoting Geezer (Reply 23):

The iPOD for example; Apple comes out with it in the beginning, then "everyone else" spends the next 10 years trying to copy the idea, and cash in on the "demand" that the "fruit product" created in the first place. I challenge anyone on this forum reading this, to name one product that has has "spawned" an entire industry

Sony Walkman, anyone? The television? RADIO? The model T? And more relevant to this forum, the Wright Flyer.

Not to mention Apple didn't even invent any of those things. There were MP3 players before the iPod. There were smart-phones before the iPhone. There were even tablet computers before the iPad. But somehow Apple manages to re-package products that already exist with a shiny casing, sell a bunch of those to a captive audience that will line up around the block from the Apple store for a week to buy a turd if you call it an iCrap and claim that they are innovators, which they are not. Steve Jobs is no Wright Brothers.
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Geezer
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:24 pm

[quote=Goldenshield,reply=26]Sony Walkman, anyone? The television? RADIO? The model T? And more relevant to this forum, the Wright Flyer.

Yes, the Walkman is a pretty good example of what I was talking about; however, even though it was very successful, it didn't have a tenth of the impact on the industry that the iPod has had.


[quote=Goldenshield,reply=26]You do realize that a Mac is an Apple branded PC, right? And while I don't want to borrow one of Klaus' catchphrases, but you do realize that the Mac can also run Windows, which, by your logic, makes it a PC. However, that is perfectly okay, because they are all PERSONAL COMPUTERS in the end.

Yes, I am aware that "Mac" is an "Apple" branded personal computer

[quote=Goldenshield,reply=26]And no, not all PCs run windows. Many run some form of Unix, and some even lesser known operating systems.

You're attempting to split hairs here..........as we all know, in everyday 2011 "jargon", when people refer to "PC's" they are referring to one of the ump-teen gadzillion machines that depends one or another of MS's crappy versions of "dirty windows"......( LOL ) Also...........interesting you should mention Unix; going WAY BACK.........Unix was "invented" by a collaboration of many nerdy university folks, and being "open source", it was assumed that everyone understood it, etc etc. so later on Steve Jobs had the brilliant idea to base his new OS X on it; ( seems to have worked pretty well ! )

But this is all getting away from dxing's original frustrations............which I CAN really relate to. Here's what I would do in a similar situation; before I retired, I drove big trucks for over 40 years; truck driver ALWAYS get pulled over by "cops"; some cops are "great", but many are "LTG".....(less than great) for these LTG cops, not being able to argue with them, I always carried a small portable voice recorder; when "invited" to "sit here" ( in said LTG cop's cop car, I would always whip out my voice recorder, sit it on the seat, and say, "go ahead, I'm listening"; "What's THAT" ? "OH, I have trouble remembering, so I always make a recording, the better to remember what everyone says." You would be surprised how this can have a huge effect on the cop's ( or a a half-baked "greeter's ) overall demeanor. When they know you have it all "documented", they are much more inclined to "walk the line", so to speak.

I have successfully employed this "technique" several time in a traffic court.

As a matter of fact, I would make a printout of this entire thread and send it to Steve Jobs ! ( Lotta people listening to this, Steve ! Know what I mean ? ) I wasn't kidding when I complimented dxing on his masterful account of the conversation in the "fruit store" ! I would love to make a few thousand copies of something like that and "distribute" them at Apple's next big yearly developer's "shindig" ! ( no telling what they might be willing to do to "shut you up" ! )

Overall, at the proverbial "end of the day", ALL computers are a "pain in the butt", (at least to me)

(But where would we be without them ? )



[quote=wingman,reply=27]The fruit haters give poor Klaus so much grief and talk about drinking the Kool-Aid. The only problem with that angle is that Apple's products consistently rank highest in terms of quality, support, and customer satisfaction not just from the millions of idiots that buy them but also expert trade review magazines, industry analysts, and ultimately...buyers of Apple shares. For every person like DXing that has a bad experience with Apple there are 3 or 4 that have a bad experience with a competing product. It's just the facts folks, you might seduce a million sheep here and there with slick advertising or a sleek design, but to seduce hundreds of millions of people across the globe over a full ten year span is simply not possible unless your products actually kick the living shit out the competition. And that's what Apple does. It's not only a legendary brand, it's also a benchmark for quality and service.


Thank you Wingman ! That's exactly what I was trying to say and couldn't think of how to say it ! Right on !!!!

Charley
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Goldenshield
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:43 pm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 29):
You're attempting to split hairs here..........as we all know, in everyday 2011 "jargon", when people refer to "PC's" they are referring to one of the ump-teen gadzillion machines that depends one or another of MS's crappy versions of "dirty windows"......( LOL ) Also...........interesting you should mention Unix; going WAY BACK.........Unix was "invented" by a collaboration of many nerdy university folks, and being "open source", it was assumed that everyone understood it, etc etc. so later on Steve Jobs had the brilliant idea to base his new OS X on it; ( seems to have worked pretty well ! )

Your technical "facts" are so off, you might as well be on an IV of kool-aid. UNIX was NEVER open-source, nor was it "invented" at a university. And no, I'm not splitting hairs. Just becuase Windows is the dominant operating system does not mean in any way, shape or form, that the PC specifcation by IBM is SOLELY dependant on Windows. You're an idiot if you truly believe that.

Also, Jobs did NOT use UNIX, He used bits and pieces of open-source clones of BSD, which itself was NOT open-source, nor was it UNIX; it's UNIX-like.

[Edited 2011-09-11 11:58:51]
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:17 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 27):
It's not only a legendary brand, it's also a benchmark for quality and service.

Here is your Kool-Aid. Thanks for playing.

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comorin
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:06 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 31):
Here is your Kool-Aid. Thanks for playing.

Does it come in the Other flavor?  
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:21 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 16):
I just love the term 'Fruit' !!! You heard it here on a.net first. dxing, you should copyright the term before the Fruit Company decides to do it..

Forrest Gump:
"Lieutenant Dan got me invested in some kind of fruit company. So then I got a call from him, saying we don’t have to worry about money no more. And I said, that’s good! One less thing."  
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:37 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 27):
The fruit haters give poor Klaus so much grief and talk about drinking the Kool-Aid. The only problem with that angle is that Apple's products consistently rank highest in terms of quality, support, and customer satisfaction not just from the millions of idiots that buy them but also expert trade review magazines, industry analysts, and ultimately...buyers of Apple shares. For every person like DXing that has a bad experience with Apple there are 3 or 4 that have a bad experience with a competing product. It's just the facts folks, you might seduce a million sheep here and there with slick advertising or a sleek design, but to seduce hundreds of millions of people across the globe over a full ten year span is simply not possible unless your products actually kick the living shit out the competition. And that's what Apple does. It's not only a legendary brand, it's also a benchmark for quality and service.

But the thing you highlight in your post is that apple doesn't really have much market share, they certainly do not yet have a dominant market share. However they do have a dominant "mindshare" right now. Apple does not have the "hundreds of millions" Android and "PC" do, Apple is the one that has "seduced millions" (more like tens of). Now they do own the tablet market but that's it really as far as true market dominance.

The buyers of Apples shares are a wholly separate group from the users. I will be curious to see how things are two years from now, I don't think it will be down much but I do not think it will be up.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 28):
Not to mention Apple didn't even invent any of those things. There were MP3 players before the iPod. There were smart-phones before the iPhone. There were even tablet computers before the iPad. But somehow Apple manages to re-package products that already exist with a shiny casing, sell a bunch of those to a captive audience that will line up around the block from the Apple store for a week to buy a turd if you call it an iCrap and claim that they are innovators, which they are not. Steve Jobs is no Wright Brothers.

Also remember that Microsoft was know for "remaking" something that already existed and marketing as their own original concept. Apple is very much like Microsoft twenty years ago though with a hardware emphasis instead of just software.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 29):
You're attempting to split hairs here..........as we all know, in everyday 2011 "jargon", when people refer to "PC's" they are referring to one of the ump-teen gadzillion machines that depends one or another of MS's crappy versions of "dirty windows"...

Funny that.. .You are right that there are "ump-teen gadzillion machines" that use Window's vs "tens of millions" that use an Apple OS. Apple just cracked 10% of the PC market, it is equivalent to ACER, one of the smaller "PC" makers. Though its entrance into the mass market has apparently affected it and Apple just fell from second to fourth in reliability (Lenovo, Asus, and Toshiba being the reliability leaders). Ultimately the mass market of PC users view Apple the same as other brands, only caring about "what does it do for me" and not the hype on either side. I am like Klaus on this, Mac is fine but so is Windows and so are "PC's". Both have excellent software tools and both hardware bases are very good and very reliable.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 31):
Here is your Kool-Aid.

My gosh! Two whole quarts from just 0.23oz of KoolAid? Wow!!! Oh wait... that's right, the "user" has to add one cup of sugar to actually get that "value" (i.e. almost 35 times more sugar). Wow. But the consumer does still love Kool Aid.

Tugg
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Springbok747
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:39 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 32):
Does it come in the Other flavor?

Yes. Yes it does   
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Cadet57
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:45 am

Well that didn't take long....
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dxing
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:42 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
Please put yourself in my shoes:


Your shoes? It's my OP.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
Your original post can very well have been intended to be something else, but as it actually is, it reads like the equivalent of a breathless high-pressure rant performed with bright-red head and a raised voice so everyone will hear how horribly you've been wronged.


Interesting that you are the only one so far to see it that way.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
Yes, I don't know what exactly went down in the store.


That's right, you don't, but you assume I was either insulting to the store staff (I wasn't) or arrived with an "attitude" ( which I didn't) and am some how rude.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
Which is why I was actually very cautious about passing judgment on the situation.


You passed judgement in the second and third lines of your post. Let me refresh your memory:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
Which makes it difficult to assess what the entire tone of the conversations in the store really was. In my experience giving store clerks (in general) a lot of attitude even before they've had the chance to help you substantially increases the risk of getting less than ideal service.

Hard to say under the circumstances if their attitude was really as inappropriate in context as you've reported it. If this is indeed the way it went down, they could have handled it better for sure.


and even here you are assuming as I never charged the staff with being anything less than courteous. What I have related is that some of their statements were naive at best, either misinformed or not informed in others. I don't fault the staff for bad company policy.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
That is absolutely wrong and incorrect. I have nowhere made such a claim.


You first try to explain why it couldn't't be the phones fault, then go on to explain why it might be AT&T's fault, and finally why it is somehow my fault to expect the fruit company to repair the items that they design, manufacturer, and sell.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
The Apple Store clerk did not offer to "sell you a new iPhone".


Nor did I claim that that the staffer did. What he said was:

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
“We don’t fix the internal workings of the phone here in the store. The best I can offer you since the phone is out of warranty is the same phone for $199”. That, in a nutshell, was the “repair”!
Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
So in effect they offered you exactly what you wanted – if it would have turned out that just reconnecting the antenna would have solved the problem, you'd probably have paid even less


They never offered to fix the phone. They offered to replace it with a like item for $199.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
So what exactly is your problem with that policy? It seems reasonable and actually very closely in line with what you actually wanted all along.


My problem is that they never bothered to take the case off the phone and see if it was a simple antenna fix. Had they done that and found something else substantially wrong that would have made the repair much more expensive than it was worth then I could have at least made an informed decision. As it stands, what might have been a fix costing much less than $199 will never be known because of the companies policy not to repair phones.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
Where have I claimed such a thing? Where?
IPhone Alarm Glitch Doesnt Recognise New Year 2011 (by oa260 Jan 1 2011 in Non Aviation)?threadid=2294054&searchid=2294598&s=Apple+Klaus#ID2294598
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 19586 posts, RR: 58
Reply 51
There are manufacturers who simply stop there, shove the product out the door and to hell with the user experience. Apple generally goes that extra mile (or ten) and asks to get paid for it, too.


Apple Customer Service - Excellent! (by BMIFlyer Dec 23 2010 in Non Aviation)?threadid=2292225&searchid=2293118&s=Apple+Klaus#ID2293118
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 19586 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24,
Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 21):
I'm aware of that. However, I have had very few issues (all software) with my Dell laptop which was considerably less expensive than a comparable Mac.

Except if you've got a high-grade business model from Dell, there is no comparable Mac. Apple doesn't compete with Dell's mainstream lines at all.


Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 19586 posts, RR: 58
Reply 31
From what I know about this kind of device, I doubt that he would have claimed that Apple was cutting corners on component quality. They're pretty much at the top of the line on that.


I Took A Long Sip From The Apple Kool-aid (by greasespot Oct 24 2010 in Non Aviation)?threadid=2274686&searchid=2275039&s=Apple+Klaus#ID2275039
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 19586 posts, RR: 58
Reply 25,
Had I built a bunch of PCs over the years (of course I could not have had my two portable machines in that case), I would have wasted a whole lot of time and work on them, without any benefit whatsoever, probably at greater risk of defects than I've actually had.

Computer Recommendation #? (by einsteinboricua Aug 25 2010 in Non Aviation)?threadid=2257132&searchid=2257866&s=Apple+Klaus#ID2257866
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 19586 posts, RR: 58
Reply 37,
Nothing is entirely problem- or frustration-free, but I've used a large number of different systems in my career and the Mac platform is the closest to that I've ever seen.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
I have taken quite a bit of my own free time trying to help you along in resolving the apparent defect of your daughter's device


You've taken quite a bit of time defending your devotion to the Fruit Company. Since the company already made their decision on how to resolve the problem with her phone, there is absolutely nothing you could add, other than try and defend a flawed policy, which have done, unsuccessfully, several times.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
My goodness. Why do I even bother?


Why do you, your bias in this matter is completely predictable. A number of replies in the thread prior to your first one predicted almost exactly what you would say.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 33):
Forrest Gump:


Kudo's Zkpilot! I wasn't sure anyone would get this obscure reference. Gump remains one of my favorite movies of all time.
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jessbp
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:27 am

Wow, such vitriol over a bloody phone. Here's what I don't get. Is the op angry because the phone broke, that the customer service was lacklustre, that the phone couldn't be repaired in store or that a replacement was offered at a cheap price compared to a brand new model?

Let's look at each one.

The phone broke. My partners suffered a similar issue, the phone would only receive calls/text if place at certain angles. The phone was a nokia and two years old. Conclusion, all makes of phone can suffer issues.

How about the lacklustre customer service. Well that sucks. Again though, not unique to an apple store.

Repairs. Almost any electronic item that breaks is sent away these days for repair. The days of a specific shop having engineers in place to repair things in-house is all but gone. I should know, because I trained as an engineer many years ago and have seen the industry shrink to almost nothing. These days phones are more likely exchanged with the old model sent to a central repair facility to be refurbished before being sent back to stores to be supplied as a replacement for a broken model. So no actual waste.

Finally, being offered a replacement for a price. Well the phone was out of warrantee. So nothing unusual there.

The thing is nokia, samsung and countless other manufacturers operate the same way, so to single out apple says more that you hate the company rather than your experience in the store. The fact that you've personally attacked the one guy that can offer some insight into how apple works says a lot.

One final thing before I get attacked by the rest of the haters. apple makes products for people to buy. That's capitalism, something I thought was important to the US. You can't shout foul because you've found out apple build in product withdrawal to they're product line. They want to make money. You don't have to buy the new item, and your phone will still work even after software updates stop.

Apple isn't the only company that operates like this so stop acting like they're evil for doing it.

For the record I have an iPhone 3GS and iPad 1. But I also have 3 pc's running windows. The phone was a gift and the iPad I bought for work because it was a good deal. However, I'm not a fan of apple nor of Steve Jobs. The apple products I have do what I want them to, but most tablet's can do the same as can most smartphones. So I don't drink 'the kool aid' so don't bother trying to pin that on me.

[Edited 2011-09-12 02:38:15]
 
Cadet57
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:11 pm

Quoting jessbp (Reply 38):

You've missed the ENTIRE point of the thread.
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jessbp
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:39 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 39):
Quoting jessbp (Reply 38):

You've missed the ENTIRE point of the thread.


Really? A man experiences crappy customer service and goes on a rant about the evils of said company. Any company can give crappy service, yet apple gets singled out as the true axis of evil. Not only that, then there's trying to bait a fellow member into the thread to knowing he's going to try to defend said evil company, just so you rubbish his point of view.

I agree with the op That if he'd have been told apple didn't fix things in store, then he wouldn't have wasted his time being led up the garden path. But to go on a rant just because it's apple is unfair. Whether I missed the point of the thread is neither here nor there.
 
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casinterest
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:55 pm

http://www.dailytech.com/Apple+Tops+...eport+with+iPhone/article22684.htm


According to JD power and associates, your rant is much more prevelant at companies other than the fruit company.

http://www.consumersearch.com/blog/l...t-how-do-the-major-brands-stack-up

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
Begin ranting

I am sure you had a difficult time, but once again, Apple is being recognzied for superior customer satisfaction than other carriers for the iphone.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
wingman
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:14 pm

Apple doesn't have hundreds of millions of customers worldwide? I would've thought so across all products. And please remember that when comparing share of Apple to Android you are comparing, some would say, Apples to Lemons. One is a direct manufacturer while the other is just a licensee. It's like comparing Amex to Visa.

Anyway, if I look at tens or hundreds of millions of the most satisfied customers on Earth on one hand and then the rantings of a Springbok and a Dxing on the other hand I would have to bet my home on the former having the edge in terms of "the truth".
 
Cadet57
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:46 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 42):
And please remember that when comparing share of Apple to Android you are comparing, some would say, Apples to Lemons. One is a direct manufacturer while the other is just a licensee. It's like comparing Amex to Visa.

Lmao. Dont be sad that Android is the #1 mobile OS (and for good reason)

Keep drinking the Koolaid iPhone fans.
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StarAC17
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:54 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
“See, all you had to do was walk in the door and it fixed itself, our stuff is that good!!”

That is funny.

People probably do think that and I reckon that there is a lot of "Fruit religion" people that will not under any circumstances question imperfections of said company.

An example of what I'm talking about are these two Simpsons spoofs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L2fsubA2-c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZGIn9bpALo

Quoting dxing (Reply 22):
Which means it can break, and more importantly be replaced.

It can as can most things on modern electronic devices, it's just not profitable to do it unfortunately  . I really don't like that we don't fix things like this which can really be disposed up cheaply (well it can but circuit boards are very bad for the environment).

You live in IAH, next time something like this happens find the guy in Chinatown that will fix this thing for $100. That is what a lot of people do when the "Geniuses" can't or won't solve their problem.
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dxing
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:56 pm

Quoting jessbp (Reply 38):
Wow,

I don't know what OP you are referring to but I did not get "mad" at any time. Frustrated? You bet.

Secondly, the customer service by the staff was not lackluster, if any thing the cheerful greeter was a little over the top but better that than the reverse. The gentleman behind the desk seemed to be a one trick pony (restore) but once he made it clear the company policy was to not fix the phone the reason became clear.

Thirdly, AT&T runs a service shop for the phones (save the fruit companies) they sellouts not 20 minutes from my house. I've been there and gotten phones serviced as I can be particularly tough on them.

Lastly, being offered a replacement is nice, but what if the repairs would have cost substantially less? Still a deal? I don't think so and that is the heart of the post.

Yes, you did miss the point and you attributed things to me that I never said and are not true. If the same had been true about an LG or Samsung, Sony, HTC, or any number of others, I would have made the same post. If you build it, sell it, and particularly in your own store, you should be willing to fix it. I expected the phone would have to be sent off, not fixed in the store. I did not expect to not have the option to even have an assesment made of the cost of a repair. Why should I, why would I, want to buy a like item as the phone has already been displaced by a newer version that is set to be replaced yet again in a few months time? With an upgrade at the service provider the newer phone becomes the better deal in that scenario.

Bait? Using your criteria no post then should ever be made if it is critical of a policy or procedure of a name recognition company as it be construed as baiting any number of forum members.
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Klaus
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RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:22 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 44):
You live in IAH, next time something like this happens find the guy in Chinatown that will fix this thing for $100. That is what a lot of people do when the "Geniuses" can't or won't solve their problem.

I've pointed out that Apple is doing exactly that as well if the defect is small enough – you'll apparently just get a replacement device with a fresh battery and 90 days of extra manufacturer warranty in exchange for the defective device which will be repaired later on. Apple is capping the repair cost at $199 in the worst case. If the fix is cheaper, you pay less, just as with your repair shop next door.

Apple is apparently reserving an amount of $199 on your credit card right away while they're swapping your defective device for a working one, but they will charge only what the repair will actually have cost in the end. If the repair should turn out to have been cheaper than $199, the remaining amount is not charged and is released from your credit card again.

Even the $199 is only a fraction of the price of a new device at $649 or $749.

If they're actually offering a swap right away, you'll walk out of the store with a fresh, working device without having paid anything thus far (your available credit is just reduced by $199). Your old device goes into the repair pool and when they get around to it they'll charge what the repair will actually have cost, but you just keep on using your replacement device with a minimum of fuss.

Without an immediate replacement you'll wait for the repaired or a replacement device at the same cost, just possibly being without the device for some days.

I personally have never needed out-of-warranty service for any of my Apple products (even though I normally use them quite a bit beyond the end of even the extended warranty) so I can't tell from my own experience, but I've linked to the official terms of service above which I expect to reflect what they're actually doing.

Given the way they seem to be doing this, I don't see the big, horrible problem with it. Where is it?

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 43):
Quoting wingman (Reply 42):
And please remember that when comparing share of Apple to Android you are comparing, some would say, Apples to Lemons. One is a direct manufacturer while the other is just a licensee. It's like comparing Amex to Visa.

Lmao. Dont be sad that Android is the #1 mobile OS (and for good reason)

Keep drinking the Koolaid iPhone fans.

Your brain seems to be swimming in Kool Aid if you keep pouring it over all your posts regardless whether it's a remote fit or not.

The point wingman was making was that there's a difference between an integrated manufacturer/service provider (such as Apple or American Express) or a licensor such as Google, Microsoft or Visa.

That's got nothing to do with which company one might like or not - it's a simple matter of different structures.

Your religious zeal was entirely misplaced there.
 
Cadet57
Posts: 7170
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:02 am

RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:33 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 46):
Your brain seems to be swimming in Kool Aid if you keep pouring it over all your posts regardless whether it's a remote fit or not.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Pot... kettle...Klaus.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 46):
Your religious zeal was entirely misplaced there.



   Of all the people to be talking about religious zeal it WOULD be you. Do you happen to know what the word hypocrite means?
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21496
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:46 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 45):
Lastly, being offered a replacement is nice, but what if the repairs would have cost substantially less? Still a deal? I don't think so and that is the heart of the post.

And the heart of my response was that if the actual repair cost is less than the reserved maximum cap of $199, they only charge you that lesser cost and release the rest of the $199 from your available credit again.

If you hadn't been so busy with all kinds of more or less inventive personal abuse, you could have noticed that I was simply explaining that to you (the above linked official terms of service have been available to you all along anyway).

The store clerk should have explained that already, too, but from the tone of your initial rant and from your aggressive escalation towards myself you might pardon me when I suspect that you might already have stormed out of the store in an indignant huff before he could finish explaining to you how the repair would be charged, and particularly how much (and how even the maximum relates to the actual cost of a new device).

Of course I may well be wrong about that, too, but in here I've only witnessed you impatient, abusive and not actually listening to anything that's being said or explained, so I sincerely hope the scene in the store was somewhat more serene and constructive. I explicitly acknowledge that possibility, as I've done all along.

But impressions matter, here as much as there.

Quoting dxing (Reply 45):
Why should I, why would I, want to buy a like item as the phone has already been displaced by a newer version that is set to be replaced yet again in a few months time?

New iPhone: $649 / $749 (in that case, an iPhone 4)

Repair: $0 ... $199 (depending on the severity of the defect)

If you think that's still too expensive, I've even provided you with a do-it-yourself disassembly/repair guide above.

You should really re-read both of our posts again once you've cooled down eventually. My explicit intention in here was simply to support you getting your actual problem fixed.

Looks like a mistake, however.
 
dxing
Topic Author
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: The Fruit Phone Rant

Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:23 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 48):
And the heart of my response was that if the actual repair cost is less than the reserved maximum cap of $199, they only charge you that lesser cost and release the rest of the $199 from your available credit again.



That would be fine, if they had offered that. The gentleman behind the counter was specific in saying they didn't fix this kind of problem and my one and only option was to purchase a like item for $199. For several reason, detailed below, I declined this offer.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 48):
If you hadn't been so busy with all kinds of more or less inventive personal abuse, you could have noticed that I was simply explaining that to you (the above linked official terms of service have been available to you all along anyway



Again, the one and only option I was presented with was buying a like item for $199. No offer to take the phone and ship it anywhere for a diagnostic and repair cost evaluation was offered. But I said same in the OP and further posts, which you have conveniently overlooked then and since.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 48):
The store clerk should have explained that already, too, but from the tone of your initial rant and from your aggressive escalation towards myself you might pardon me when I suspect that you might already have stormed out of the store in an indignant huff before he could finish explaining to you how the repair would be charged, and particularly how much (and how even the maximum relates to the actual cost of a new device).



Aggressive escalation? You first try and defend the company by passing blame to the service provider and then me. Attribute words and meaning to me that are not present in the OP writing, and then refuse to acknowledge what the gentleman said was my one and only option, buy a like item for $199. When I point this out to you that is considered "aggressive escalation"?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 48):
Of course I may well be wrong about that, too,


No doubt.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 48):
but in here I've only witnessed you impatient, abusive and not actually listening to anything that's being said or explained, so I sincerely hope the scene in the store was somewhat more serene and constructive. I explicitly acknowledge that possibility, as I've done all along.



Impatient? The fruit store said they would get back to me in 2-3 days, see the OP, in reality it was 4. I said nothing to them about that delay. When they did get back to me the person on the phone evidently had no idea what was wrong with the phone to begin with, even though the cheerful greeter took down all revelant information, and did not listen to what I said when I explained the problem as they then claimed the phone had "fixed itself" since they were looking at a full signal strength even though I had explained that the booster in the store was presenting a false sense of reception.

Abusive? Care to cite where?

Done all along? You've done nothing but try and defend their flawed policy first by trying to pass it off as a service provider problem and then my problem. You are actually worse than anyone I dealt with in the store. At least they seemed to understand that the phone and the corresponding repair policy were the problems, not the customer or the service provider.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 48):
New iPhone: $649 / $749 (in that case, an iPhone 4)

Repair: $0 ... $199 (depending on the severity of the defect)



Again, no offer of repair was made. The gentleman behind the counter was specific in saying they didn't repair for the type of problem my phone was displaying. The only thing the counter person could offer was a like item for $199. Now, given I was due an upgrade at my carrier, and my daughter did not want a 3gs when the 5 is due out shortly, why in the world would I spend the $199 knowing in the back of my mind that the repair was probably a simple one costing far less, as well as denying my daughter the opportunity that she wanted to save up and buy the 5 when it comes out? The $199 would have been a waste of at least some money. What part of that don't you understand or have I not made clear? The fruit company was not interested in trying to repair the broken phone, only extracting a price above and beyond what I figured the repair would cost, and they refused to investigate and identify.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 48):
You should really re-read both of our posts again once you've cooled down eventually


I've never gotten upset. I've experienced frustration at a bad store policy, which I've related here but since I knew I had other options other than what the fruit company was offering as their solution, there was no need to get upset. I do get upset when people put words in my mouth as well as actions on paper as if they were truth when they are not.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 48):
My explicit intention in here was simply to support you getting your actual problem fixed.


I'll try and keep the paragraphs shorter now and in the future since long paragraphs, even if they remain on the subject matter, seem to cause you some sort of problem.

Your intention, by your writing as well as misrepresentation of what I have said, is to backstop a company with a flawed repair policy. You continue to insinuate that I was less than courteous to anyone in the store which is simply untrue and seems to be the only hope you have at this point of trying to defend a bad store policy.

You can continue to try and defend that bad policy if you wish but the matter is already closed as the phone is on its way to a vendor willing to buy it for more than I had to pay for my new phone which I purchased on the upgrade. My daughter is satisfied with my Sony Experia until such time as she can save up the money to buy a the new 5 when it comes out.

Feel free to continue to try and attribute words, thoughts, and actions to me that did not occur but the simple fact remains, the fruit company has a bad service policy when it comes to repairing the items that they design, manufacturer, and sell at their stores and it is compounded by the fact that they will not allow a third party to work on them either.

As to the infallibility of their products, which I think I have amply demonstrated you are convinced of, and which you are free to believe, I think we've seen that they are anything but. The company, in my opinion which no one else is under any obligation to agree with, continues to be the recipient of undue hype about that infallibility and I for one will not spend another dime on any of their products which is my right to do without any repercussion or resentment from anyone else.

[Edited 2011-09-12 11:07:41]

[Edited 2011-09-12 11:08:36]
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