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DeltaMD90
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:16 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 194):
Oop's they are non-union, they will have to go for free.

You know, not every non-union company is bad. I worked for one and was treated just fine. I know not all unions are evil but come on man
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:22 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 200):
You know, not every non-union company is bad. I worked for one and was treated just fine. I know not all unions are evil but come on man

I certainly agree and understand all that. My wife was non-union, as was most of my family. One tries to get a good natured jibe in every once in awhile. Old Dready brings it out in me. I should have put a funny face on that one.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:45 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 201):
Old Dready brings it out in me.

It's what I live for   
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:02 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 202):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 201):Old Dready brings it out in me.
It's what I live for

All in the interests of a good discussion, sharing our thoughts, and hoping for the best for our families, and our country, of that I am sure.  

[Edited 2011-10-13 20:04:15]
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
baroque
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:07 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 178):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 176):
Can someone remind me how government forced banks to consolidate numerous low quality loans into highly questionable derivatives and then persuade the agencies to award them levels of quality that were criminally misleading and then forced the banks to unsuspecting clients?
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 177):
What does that even mean?

It was a money making scheme by the banks, that was criminal, they lost the money, we bailed them out. It was so convoluted, that they cannot trace the money/mortgages to this day. the banks,financial institutions/ Wall Street dreamed this up. they made money, we paid, they escaped whole. They protestors are filling the jail cells, not the bankers. Not a single one.

Sorry, it was late at night and I did miss a verb out as is it should have read "then forced the banks to foist these liabilities on unsuspecting clients" But a number of US posters who understand the issue far better than I took up the point and answered as in:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 182):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 181):
No professionally-run bank would voluntarily go into a sub-prime mortgage, where interest rates were lower than the risk profile warranted, unless it were forced to - which they were.

Except they weren't forced into making bad loans. The only thing the banks were forced into was to stop the practice of red-lining and discrimination where banks would refuse to make ANY loans in a neighborhood regardless of the applicants credit status. You could have been a millionaire with a perfect credit score, but if you lived in "bad neighborhoods", the banks would refuse to give you a loan.

and a number of others following along the chain of awfulness. My thanks for pulling out details better than I could.

Slightly more scatological fact from the past - but still an incredible reality - any sign of prosecutions for the mortgage sellers in Florida who back in the heady days recruited something of the order of 5000 mortgage salemen with criminal records, most for false pretences? Back in the equally heady days of having Dougloid's acerbic writings to look at there were a couple of threads on this very topic.

So can anyone point to the Federal government instructing mortgage retailers to have such a high attention to the employment of those with a criminal record? I mean it was a very worthy endeavour to get these recidivists back into the work place, but why the preference for false pretences and would not a few more GBHs and drug dealers have shown a greater sense of humanity?   
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:35 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 203):

All in the interests of a good discussion, sharing our thoughts, and hoping for the best for our families, and our country, of that I am sure.

No question.   

Quoting Baroque (Reply 204):
Except they weren't forced into making bad loans. The only thing the banks were forced into was to stop the practice of red-lining and discrimination where banks would refuse to make ANY loans in a neighborhood regardless of the applicants credit status. You could have been a millionaire with a perfect credit score, but if you lived in "bad neighborhoods", the banks would refuse to give you a loan.

and a number of others following along the chain of awfulness. My thanks for pulling out details better than I could.

Except it's misleading. Yes, the letter of the law was to stop 'redlining'. But the way it was enforced was to enforce quotas. Under the administration of Franklin Raines, Fannie and Freddie began to demand that the lending institutions that it dealt with prove that they were not redlining (guilty unless proven innocent). This meant that the lending institutions would have to fulfill a quota of minority mortgage lending. This in turn meant that the lending agencies would have to lower their standards in terms of such things as down payments and the required incomes. Because Fannie and Freddie made a market for subprime mortgages the lenders did not have to worry about of the soundness of the mortgage contract they wrote. Thus the lenders could write the mortgages as adjustable interest rate mortgages knowing full well that an upturn in the interest rates could easily throw the borrower into insolvency.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:53 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 181):
Once again, you accuse the banks of being "greedy" and "criminal" for simply performing their fiduciary duty.

Not only that, but even if they were guilty of gross incompetence, last time I checked that is not a crime. If it was, who would we have to work for the government?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 184):
They sold off the loans and made paper profits on derivatives of material assets that were forecast to increase in value.

Oh boy, here it comes - bringing in securitization and derivatives as if a) they are inherently bad things and b) they had anything to do with each other. Next thing you know he will be harping against adjustable-rate mortgages as well.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 187):
Also many folks at this point stopped purchasing loans on fixed rates. They purchased ARM's and expected to Refinance at lower rates or "flip" the house at a capital gain.

Oops, spoke to soon... and there it is, ladies and gentlemen, the unholy trifecta. If you knew anything about banking, you would know that banks fund themselves with short-term debt (bank deposits) that is basically variable-rate. Basically everywhere else in the world, banks solve that problem by making adjustable-rate loans, but in the U.S., Fannie and Freddie have distorted the market to a point where people believe it is their God-given right to have a 30-year fixed rate mortgage. The end result of it is, the inherent interest rate risk of a "traditional" mortgage is so much that any bank that tied to hold a portfolio of these loans in its books would be shut down on the spot by the FDIC for reckless lending. So the only solution a bank has is to either a) go to a big, bad investment bank to securitize the loans (sell them to investors such as insurance companies that have fixed-rate liabilities) or b) go to that same big, bad investment bank to buy from him an interest rate swap (basically an evil derivative). So if you are as against securitization and against derivatives, ergo you are against fixed-rate mortgages. So which one is it - are you ignorant about the workings of finance or are you perfectly aware of the consequences of your position and just looking for someone gullible enough to rabble-rouse?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 185):
The ONLY reason that they could sell sub-prime loans at such premium prices was because Fannie and Freddie acted as Market-Makers. A market maker is a player on the exchange with enough clout to move the market.

Exactly. Their power as market maker is so high they have now have managed to essentially wipe out the private mortgage market - considering that the U.S. mortgage market is the largest fixed income market in the world, that is no small feat. The FM twins, with the unlimited checkbook of the U.S. government, now control 95+% of new mortgage originations (the ones they do not purchase are basically the non-conforming ones) - they have depressed mortgage yields to the point that now private lender can in good faith originate and hold a mortgage to compete with them. So now the U.S. taxpayer is now the proud owner of basically every single residential mortgage in the country (you probably need to go to Cuba to find such a high level of influence in the residential market).

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 186):
There were plenty of lenders who were handing out loans to people who plainly could not afford them.

And there he is, Captain Hindsight to the rescue! "Plainly could not afford it" - funny, John Paulson thought the same thing, but he had returns of 600% in 2007. Where are your billions from shorting the mortgage market? Your public statements from 2005 - 2006 saying this was a bubble? Or perhaps you are just one of those people who likes to point at things after the fact?

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 186):
In the old days, you see, banks had to hold on to those mortgages. And that's what the historical data was based on. In the 1990s it became possible to bundle mortgages into securitizations. The original underwriter was rarely the servicer by 2005, and that's how we got into trouble.

No bank can hold a fixed-rate mortgage.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 186):
And all of that - all of that can be put squarely on the deregulatory impulses of the 1980s and 1990s.

Uff, thought we were going to miss that old canard - "deregulation" (completely ignoring the fact that banking and securities is the most regulated industry in the world). So, pray tell, exactly which repeal of rules caused this - and don't come out with the old, tired "Glass-Steagall" - if you are going to try to pull that one off, indicate exactly which paragraph of Glass-Steagall could have saved us all (not even going to ask why other countries seem to do fine without it).

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 186):

At the time, in say, 2006, banks and investment firms who did not buy up these mortgages, even when the writing was on the wall that they were not worth the paper they were printed on, were seen as suckers. If you passed on a deal, somebody else would surely make a securitization based on that deal and pocket the profit you'd just forfeited.

Or they could be all-knowing like you and make billions shorting the market, right?

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 186):
for-profit lenders

The shock! The horror!

Quoting casinterest (Reply 187):
Anyone with Basic knowledge would understand that the involvement of Privately Backed Banks, (lehman and Goldman, and others ) were the cause of SUB Prime Crisis. They specifically BYPASSED Fannie and Freddie. They went directly to the end banks and bought the mortgages and started selling them as packaged Investments.

Oh, so when the government is doing it, it is fine, but God help someone who tries to "muscle in" on their territory, correct? I am sure that is why the net cost for the government of TARP is going to be close to zero or even a slight profit, despite lumping in the auto debacle into them ( http://www.usa-tax-news.com/story/US..._TARP_Cost_Estimates____48546.html ), while the bill for Fannie/Freddie is up to $130 billion and rising ( http://financialservices.house.gov/N...umentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=244465 ).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 189):
I would also add that since the market started going bad, the banks have almost completely stopped selling them. But the Federal government is still at it, full bore.

It is just incredible that the federal government now owns basically every single new mortgage in the country - cannot think of another free country anywhere near that.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 190):
I wonder who owns the property, the business people? It is public property, the protestors are upholding their rights according to the Constitution, free speech and assembly.

It is owned by Brookfield Properties. But I am sure property rights mean nothing for 99% of the people camping out there.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 195):
It's not a bad space for a big protest, but not many people other than WTC tourists really hang out there otherwise. If you want a quiet spot, there are better ones. If you want an actual park, there are far better ones just blocks away.

Bin Laden must be rolling around in the bottom of the Indian Ocean laughing his turban off that two blocks away from where he knocked down two buildings and killed 2,700 people a little over 10 years ago a bunch of hippies are running around yelling and holding signs to "stop the war in Afghanistan".

Quoting us330 (Reply 196):
You are right, the commercial banks were forced to make bad loans by federal government agencies like fannie and freddie, but fannie and freddie had nothing to do with the decision of the investment banks to take these already made loans and doing something else entirely with them.

So they should just have kept them all on their balance sheet to be wiped out when the fecal matter hit the ceiling ventilator?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
baroque
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:00 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 205):
Except it's misleading. Yes, the letter of the law was to stop 'redlining'. But the way it was enforced was to enforce quotas.

All those may, or may not be true. Where I find the disconnect is you surely are not saying that government instructed them to bundle the primary mortgages into secondary instruments and onsell them, let alone instruct the ratings agencies to incorrectly indicate the risk levels associated with these pieces of financial ordure?

I know (hope) you are not. THAT is the part of the process that very nearly brought about the end of the US banking system. That was a frolic entirely at the discretion of the banks and the ratings agencies. Coupled of course with offering returns that were too good to be true. Oh yes, I have plenty of scorn for those who fell for the con trick. But not as much as for those that did the primary conning.
 
us330
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:56 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 206):
So they should just have kept them all on their balance sheet to be wiped out when the fecal matter hit the ceiling ventilator?

I understand the point that you are trying to make--that people buy things that other people consider to be worthless all the time because they see some sort of value in them that the sellers do not--but I don't think that is applicable here. I'm suggesting that the banks committed fraud and breached the chinese wall--and also committed serious ethical violations contrary to the standards that they claim to hold themselves to. That they sold these products as low-risk investments when in fact they knew that they were high-risk investments.
Free markets--the idea that the market will value a product for what it is worth--only work when everyone has access to the same information--and here that wasn't the case.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:00 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 207):
you surely are not saying that government instructed them to bundle the primary mortgages into secondary instruments and onsell them, let alone instruct the ratings agencies to incorrectly indicate the risk levels associated with these pieces of financial ordure?

I suppose instructed is not the word. But the banks saw how Fannie and Freddie were doing exactly that, and the rating agencies had gone along with it, and simply copied them.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:44 pm

It's also noteworthy that most of the areas hit hardest by the foreclosure crisis are suburban and exurban area that were NOT covered by the CRA. Most of the subprime loans were issued either in non CRA lending areas OR by independent mortgage agencies not governed by CRA legislation. Furthermore, nearly 45% of all commercial real estate is under water, yet commercial real estate is not covered by the CRA. So how did commercial real estate end up so upside down?

As for Fannie/Freddie, they contributed to the bubble, but they were needed to keep the illusion of a healthy economy going. Our economy has been in decline for decades, but tools like Fannie/Freddie helped fuel an artificial building boom creating lots of temporary jobs and keeping the facade going.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:49 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 189):
Look at the graph I showed before. Fannie and Freddie were packaging and reselling MBSs years before the banks and investment houses got into the game.

DUHHHHH, That was Fannie and Freddie's jobs. And they were looking after their MSB's and verifiying the loans.

2001 and 2003 saw a pretty high spike..... Do you remember why??????? Could it have been that Tax Cut and Stimulus spending that Bush introduced during that period? And the Record...let me Repeat.... Record high Refinancing due to lower interest rates? Maybe..... Just maybe?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 189):
would also add that since the market started going bad, the banks have almost completely stopped selling them. But the Federal government is still at it, full bore.

The Big Banks stopped selling them because they were going broke after having written a ton of badly backed derivatives that they swallowed whole when the market and housing crashed. Fannie and Freddie didn't have quite as severe an issue as they had been in the MBS''s for quite a bit longer.

Also Fannie and Freddie were selling MBS's as part of their positions in the market. Fannie and Freddie are going to be in great shape when the housing industry turns around, but currently anyone associated with Mortgages names are mud due to the bubble of 2004 through 2008 when all the trigger happy flipping occurred and really bad ARMS were written
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
baroque
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:53 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 209):

I suppose instructed is not the word. But the banks saw how Fannie and Freddie were doing exactly that, and the rating agencies had gone along with it, and simply copied them.

I know they bought loans, but did F&F do repackaging? The conforming and non-conforming loans gets me a bit lost. I thought that banks did most of the repackaging for them????? I thought that F&F were left holding the stinking mess. If they passed it on, why were they in the poo too?
 
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casinterest
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:01 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 206):
b) go to that same big, bad investment bank to buy from him an interest rate swap (basically an evil derivative). So if you are as against securitization and against derivatives, ergo you are against fixed-rate mortgages. So which one is it - are you ignorant about the workings of finance or are you perfectly aware of the consequences of your position and just looking for someone gullible enough to rabble-rouse?

The workings of finance are to twist the numbers. That is the truth. At the end of the day, there is income, there is expenses, there are taxes, and there are writeoffs. everything in between during said times is an attempt to twist the numbers and make a buck. The problem with derivatives and Mortgage backed securities is that if no one KNOWS the VALUE of the Security being backed, then who knows the value of the derivatives. And since you are such a holy rolling financial guru. Perhaps you can explain how the financial gurus get around the issues where they get scared about selling these Mortgage backed securities? Oh that's right these great institutions like Goldman allow a Hedgefund to HAND PICK a group of MBS for their own personal gain to SHORT. But let's Goldman sell it at as a GOLDEN Investment to screw others without insight into the danger of the derivatives being backed. . So yes the securitization and derivatives market is a complete sham, especially when the wolves are running the chicken house, and they are doing nothing but spoiling house prior to trashing it.


And a 30 year mortgage rate is built on time and payment. If banks don't want thier 4-8% on that security, then they can do what they want with an ARM, but at then of the day. a 15-30 or 40 year mortgage is what people pay to get buy.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
jcs17
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:23 pm

Bloomberg caved. Shame. They are occupying a private park, not a public park.

They ought to turn the hoses on the protesters/morons/losers a la Birmingham. It would be the first time these people had a shower in months.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
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falstaff
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:38 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 194):
I am sure the company could have their employee's go on Saturday, or Sunday. On overtime of course. Oop's they are non-union, they will have to go for free.

I have worked in non union places and have worked weekends, holidays, and overtime in exchange for more money and a paid day off in the future.

I actually liked working in a non union shop. I am in a union now, because I have to be, and I hate it.

Quoting weebie (Reply 134):
Amerians need to pay more tax. noy 25-30% but more 40-50% like most normal countries.

Why would you think we need to pay higher taxes? I hate it when people from outside the USA seem to think we should pay the same high tax rates they do. You should be saying "why are we paying such high taxes?"

The money you earn is yours... You need to be able to do anything you want with it as much as you can.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
BMI727
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:04 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 153):
Do not get me going on sports salaries please

Economics at work, you can't argue with it. Don't like the salaries, don't buy the product. But, do you really enjoy a basketball game less if the players are better paid?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 177):
I personally think if someone can't afford a $400K house, they shouldn't buy it even if they have "low rates and monthly payments" but I guess that's just my opinion...

   This really isn't that complicated.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 178):
It was a money making scheme by the banks, that was criminal, they lost the money, we bailed them out.

All business, including banks, are nothing more than moneymaking schemes. And bailing them out was not ideal, but the fallout could have been far worse. There was no reason to bail out GM though. They should be out of business now.

And by the way, what the banks did was in no way illegal. What would be criminal would be for them to not fulfill their fiduciary responsibility to shareholders.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 182):
The only thing the banks were forced into was to stop the practice of red-lining and discrimination where banks would refuse to make ANY loans in a neighborhood regardless of the applicants credit status. You could have been a millionaire with a perfect credit score, but if you lived in "bad neighborhoods", the banks would refuse to give you a loan.

And that's a problem of too much regulation. Private banks should be able to make or refuse whatever loans they wish.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 190):
Exactly, business interests will put their well being first

Do you want a bunch of screaming, unwashed idiots on your doorstep?

Quoting weebie (Reply 134):
Amerians need to pay more tax. noy 25-30% but more 40-50% like most normal countries.

Hell no. This is a spending problem, not a revenue problem. The two states with the worst budget crises also have some of the most oppressive taxes. Making the wealthy America's piggybank will not solve anything.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Starbuk7
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:06 pm

Here is another example of your so called "peaceful" protestors!

Occupy Boston Protesters Spit On Female Officer
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/coas...protesters-spit-on-female-officer/

These people really have no clue as to what they want, how to act in public, or how to be peaceful.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:41 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 216):
Economics at work, you can't argue with it. Don't like the salaries, don't buy the product. But, do you really enjoy a basketball game less if the players are better paid?

Trust me, I do not, I watch very little sports on TV. I have not gone to a game in years.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 216):
Do you want a bunch of screaming, unwashed idiots on your doorstep?

I can always trust you to make an outlandish statement. Maybe in your plush world, the reality of someone actually doing something is offensive. I also suggest that millions, have gone unwashed while serving in the military. I have gone unwashed myself while working emergency jobs. I do not see where it affected their,or my intelligence. I do not see how you can communicate with a crowd without amplification (not allowed) by whispering either. They are a group, practicing Democracy, Deal with it. It is growing, they are still in the park in New York. I would have suggest , that people with your attitude about greed and business, had better pay more attention. It is growing, I applaud them.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
BMI727
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:02 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 218):
I also suggest that millions, have gone unwashed while serving in the military. I have gone unwashed myself while working emergency jobs. I do not see where it affected their,or my intelligence.

They're unwashed because they are stupid, not the other way around.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 218):
They are a group, practicing Democracy, Deal with it.

Part of being free is having the freedom to be an idiot.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 218):
I would have suggest , that people with your attitude about greed and business, had better pay more attention. It is growing, I applaud them.

They are a bunch of morons who need to be very careful what they wish for. Luckily there are people smarter than they who can keep them from getting it.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:15 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 219):
They're unwashed because they are stupid, not the other way around.

I guess the Brown University people who are demonstrating tomorrow are stupid, unwashed. Man!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 219):
Part of being free is having the freedom to be an idiot.

Certainly that is proven on here, time and time again.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 219):
They are a bunch of morons who need to be very careful what they wish for. Luckily there are people smarter than they who can keep them from getting it.

Time will, how smart they are, and time will tell, what change is affected by their standing up for their rights. It is time, it is a growing movement. We saw who blinked today in New York, it was not the protestors. I feel common sense was used today, by the owners of the Park.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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GuitrThree
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:56 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 220):
Time will, how smart they are, and time will tell, what change is affected by their standing up for their rights.

Really? Like I've already said before, once it gets cold in NYC, and it does, plus the added effect of high winds due to the buildings, these examples of "intellectual geniuses" will come running back to their Mom and Dads who pay the evil capitalists money to heat their houses. Given the fact that it's mid October, 2-3 more weeks is about all we're going to here from these people. And then we can move on to more important things. Like Fast and Furious and Solyndra.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:10 am

Incredible Speech By Wall Street Protester "End The Fed"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFz1VVXsWRU

The kid nailed it. He is great.

     
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
melpax
Posts: 1953
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:58 am

Protests have now also started in Melbourne, protestors are occupying the City Square in the middle of the CBD, ironically, most of the banks & other big corporates have most of their high-profile offices at the other end of town, or increasingly in Docklands. I was walking through the Melbourne Central complex yesterday to get some lunch, at least one cafe at the front of the complex had a sign up stating that they would be closed today on the advice of police & the complex owners due to an 'expected protest' - more than likely a group such as the Socalist Alliance trying to use the protests to push their 'agenda'......

http://media.theage.com.au/video-national-news/national-news
Essendon - Whatever it takes......
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:53 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 222):
Incredible Speech By Wall Street Protester "End The Fed"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFz1VVXsWRU

The kid nailed it. He is great.

He is pretty good, but you do understand that his message is not only "End the Fed", bur also "End social security, end medicare and medicaid, end welfare"

And by the way, he said the we only export guns and tanks, but did not mention our number one export - Airliners and Boeing
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
baroque
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:58 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 224):
number one export - Airliners and Boeing

Did not know that Boeing had been exported. To China presumably, the only ones with the funds to buy it.

Actually you might find that aircraft components -most nothing to do with B - are a larger export item than Airliners, even before you make the offsets.
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:19 pm

I am not moving. Short film.. Occupy wall Street.

http://livecage.com/?res=root&content_id=13433

The powerful "I Am Not Moving" juxtaposes Occupy scenes with footage of the Arab Spring alongside a righteous-sounding Hillary Clinton and Obama on the people's rights of expression and assembly.

Everybody must watch this.

 Wow!
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
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par13del
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:55 pm

So long story short, in other regions the demonstrations are about corrupt governments and the need for change, what exactly do they expect from Wall Street, is there even a single entitity at Wall Street to answer and respond to their demands? Which private individual or bank do they want to put in charge to manage and implement their demands, perhaps, just perhaps, they should be at City Hall demanding that NYC throw the banks and the DOW out of NYC then head to Washington to have the legislators pass some laws.

The bigger issue the last couple months is the gridlock on the Hill and the so called polls which show that the masses in general are upset about it, why does someone not arrange a sit in at the parks in Washington, would make the protest look like a government change which might spur those in office to actually get together and do something. Seeing and hearing the noise out-side mayhave a greater effect that occasionally looking at it on tv a few hundred miles away.
Just a thought.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:11 pm

Occupy London live feed
http://bambuser.com/channel/bc_tmh/broadcast/2045852

  

There's also a Live Feed over at The Guardian

Occupy the London Stock Exchange - live coverage
Julian Assange is there

Join us for continuing live coverage of the worldwide protests against corporate greed as the Occupy movement takes to the streets of London's financial district
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/201...t-occupy-wall-street?newsfeed=true

Another live coverage on Ustream
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/occupy-the-london-stock-exchange

one for Birmingham
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/occupybirminghamuk



  
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
cargolex
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:30 pm

A very unlikely opinion on the Occupy Wall Street protests from a very unlikely source: Fox News.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/.../understanding-occupy-wall-street/
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:42 pm

Pope's Tweet with a link to the Daily Telegraph. Looks like the Man in White is following the situation closely.

@PopeBXVI Pope Benedict XVI
Protesters burn cars in Rome as 'Occupy Wall Street' protests spread worldwide

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...upy-protests-spread-worldwide.html

     

Edited.
More about Rome/Occupy Italy

Raw Video: Violent Protests Break Out in Rome
Demonstrators in Rome set fire to cars and smash windows during a protest in the Italian capital.
http://www.newslook.com/videos/36170...violent-protests-break-out-in-rome

  


Occupy protests are spreading worldwide
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/15/world/occupy-goes-global/index.html

Zurich, Taipei, Hong Kong, Frankfurt, Stockholm, Seoul, Tokyo...

This is growing...

[Edited 2011-10-15 10:09:00]
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cargolex
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:12 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 230):

Demonstrators in Rome set fire to cars and smash windows during a protest in the Italian capital.

Though I generally support the protestation of greed and corruption, this is unacceptable behavior under any circumstances, and only serves to undermine the goals of the original protesters.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:25 pm

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 231):
Though I generally support the protestation of greed and corruption, this is unacceptable behavior under any circumstances, and only serves to undermine the goals of the original protesters.

Occupy Italy on Twitter: 500 anarchists infiltrated the peaceful Occupy Italy gathering today causing chaos
Peaceful protestors went 2 another site 2 continue rally


Nihilists/agent provocateurs are always taking advantage of mass protests.
It's nothing new.

  
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:41 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 227):
they should be at City Hall demanding that NYC throw the banks and the DOW out of NYC then head to Washington to have the legislators pass some laws.

That's what I've been saying ever since this whole thing started. That is a much bigger problem, IMO. Furthermore, even if they were organized and had some laws with a lot of support they wanted to push through Congress, I doubt they'd go anywhere since Congress is gridlocked. I'd support that, but this on the other hand...
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:22 pm

Occupy New York
Live streaming from New York City

The police are really at them with megaphones.

http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution

 
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:26 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 234):
Live streaming from New York City

Now: Occupy Wall Street $eptember 17th  
I support the right to arm bears
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:35 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 235):


There are many streams. A whole flurry of them. Some live and some others recorded.

http://www.occupystreams.org/

[Edited 2011-10-15 12:36:12]
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:36 am

This is also happening in Ireland. "Occupy Dame Street" protestors have been camped outside the Irish Central bank on Dame street for almost two weeks now. It has all been very peaceful thus far, with no outpouring of public support evident so far. Amazing really given that one bank almost brought this country down.....
 
MCOGVADCA
Posts: 256
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:04 am

Anyone coming back into the thread now (like me) just read what Pyrex said in Reply 206. He absolutely nailed it. The number of arguments promulgated by those on forums like Reddit belie a most feeble understanding of how banks/mortgages/economics works. On the other hand, Pyrex gets it.    No need for me to regurgitate, just read what he said.
18 months: pvg sea lax mco lgw stn rak cmn saw tlv ltn gva mrs lys lhr mia gig jfk sof pmi kut ktw nce fni dfw bsl oak
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 229):
A very unlikely opinion on the Occupy Wall Street protests from a very unlikely source: Fox News.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/...reet/

It's what we've been saying all along. The motivation of the protesters is understandable, but they are protesting the wrong people.

Quoting par13del (Reply 227):
ust perhaps, they should be at City Hall demanding that NYC throw the banks and the DOW out of NYC then head to Washington to have the legislators pass some laws.

Yeah, right, and watch New York implode as 50% of the tax revenue that supports that huge city disappears. Great move.

Quoting MCOGVADCA (Reply 238):
Anyone coming back into the thread now (like me) just read what Pyrex said in Reply 206. He absolutely nailed it. The number of arguments promulgated by those on forums like Reddit belie a most feeble understanding of how banks/mortgages/economics works. On the other hand, Pyrex gets it. No need for me to regurgitate, just read what he said.

   The populist ignorance of banking and economics in this thread (and on the streets) is stunning and depressing.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
baroque
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:32 pm

Taking the spat more broadly than "just" the banks:
http://www.smh.com.au/business/give-...aring-salaries-20111015-1lqdf.html
Give the directors' club a kick over soaring salaries
.....
There's been plenty written about the way CEO pay packets have lost touch with reality, soaring ever higher with little reference to the performance of the CEO or the company, and none to general community standards.

One of my favourite examples has long been the Qantas board that perfected the art of hypocrisy back when Geoff Dixon was CEO. Dixon was forever banging on, understandably, about the need for Qantas's costs to be competitive - a theory that applied to everything except the CEO's salary. The Qantas board kept finding new ways to pay Dixon more millions to ensure he was the world's most highly paid airline executive.

The tradition continues with Alan Joyce. It's early days, but he's already on $5 million and rising, already much more than his peers. The Qantas board tries to justify it by comparing Joyce's salary with the CEOs of other large Australian companies, instead of with other airlines. Someone needs to demonstrate the difference between apples and oranges.

In any case, the Qantas excuse is no excuse at all. Boards, aided and abetted by sometimes-conflicted remuneration consultants, want to think they have done their job well by picking the best CEO. So it's reasonable that their pick has a top-quartile salary - after all, he (or occasionally she) has to be top-notch or the directors would be failures.


In the printed version he points out that grossly inflated exec salaries are a feature of the Anglo-American sphere (meaning US, UK, Aus and presumably Canada) but not Japan or Europe. He cited a Japanese takeover where the now parent CEO is paid a fraction of the amount for the US execs down to about rank 20. There were other examples.

Either the rest of the world is mad, or the Anglosphere has run a monster con job.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:05 am

Wonder if those "morons" might have something to complain about.

CEO pay multiple


and

Top 1% earnings


Oh well the top 1% has been about that high before, back in 1928. Wonder what happened next?

Source Alan Kohler - as usual - and the ABC 7 pm news for 17 October 2011.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:13 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 241):
Wonder if those "morons" might have something to complain about.

I don't think anyone has said they have nothing to complain about. I agree that executive comp is out of control, and I have suggested a reasonable way of fixing that. The problem is their recommended solutions (eg end capitalism, forgiveness of all debt, free education, free healthcare, open borders, etc).

Quoting Baroque (Reply 241):
Oh well the top 1% has been about that high before, back in 1928. Wonder what happened next?

The top 1% also pay 40% of all income taxes, AFTER all the loopholes and deductions everyone complains about - i.e. they pay more than their fair share.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:09 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 242):
I don't think anyone has said they have nothing to complain about.

IIRC you did not, but quite a few others did.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 242):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 241):
Oh well the top 1% has been about that high before, back in 1928. Wonder what happened next?

The top 1% also pay 40% of all income taxes, AFTER all the loopholes and deductions everyone complains about - i.e. they pay more than their fair share.

You are defending the wrong wicket. The bowling is at the other end. If the income is more equitably distributed, there would be no chance that the top 1% would still be paying 40% of all income taxes. Basically you are getting to "their fare share" by reducing the amount everyone else pays simply because they do not have the income.

Looks as if it is time to wheel out the next exhibit.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/brave...-on-bosses-pay-20111016-1lrif.html
but economists are meant to be tough on business. Their ideology holds that capitalism is good not because it's good for capitalists, but because it's good for consumers - and consumption is ''the sole end and purpose of all production''.

So said Adam Smith, who added that ''the welfare of the producer ought to be attended to, only so far as it may be necessary for promoting that of the consumer''.
.....
All this explains why economists have such a poor record in speaking out about excessive executive remuneration - as witness, the Productivity Commission's report on the subject of a few years back. That this is a case of market failure is as plain as a pikestaff, but the commission's economists searched under every rock without finding it.

One honourable exception to this glaring dereliction, however, is Diane Coyle, who tells it as it is in her latest book, The Economics of Enough. As her previous bestsellers attest, Dr Coyle - whose PhD is from Harvard - is a most orthodox economist.
....
Seeking to explain the origins of the explosion in executive pay, she attributes it to the deregulation of the financial markets in the US, Britain and elsewhere.

''Organised crime aside,'' she says, ''the most ostentatious flaunting of wealth has emanated from the banking sector. As it turns out, these vast earnings and bonuses were undeserved. The bankers [in the US and Britain] ran up large losses, ruined their shareholders, and left taxpayers with the bill. It will be extraordinary if they turn out to have fooled, scared or bullied politicians around the world into stepping back from fundamental reform of the banking sector.''

But the key point is the impact such high incomes in banking have had on the rest of society.

''The bonuses far in excess of salaries, and the spending on big houses, fast cars and designer clothes they funded, did create a climate of greed,'' she says.

''People in other professions who are in reality in the top 1 per cent or even 0.1 per cent of the income distribution were made to feel poor by the bankers.

''Banking bonus culture validated making a lot of money as a life and career goal. It made executives working in other jobs, including not only big corporations but the public sector too, believe that they deserved bonuses.

''Remuneration consultants, a small parasitic group providing a fig leaf justification for high salaries, helped ratchet up the pay and bonus levels throughout the economy.

''The whole merry-go-round of bonuses and performance-related pay is a sham. In almost every occupation and organisation it is almost impossible to identify the contribution made by any individual to profits and performance - complicated modern organisations all depend on teamwork and collective contributions.''


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/brave...-20111016-1lrif.html#ixzz1b2nXBBJJ


And more. BTW, Ross Gittins in the economics editor and Diane C is a bit of an economist too.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:44 pm

***Occupy update***

Occupy Portland: Protesters Sing F*ck the USA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeuGx8PplAo&sns=fb


Its consistent with Obama's core beliefs and actions as President.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Flighty
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:59 pm

CEO pay isn't a major complaint of mine as a shareholder of many companies. Of course, if I DON'T own shares, CEO pay is absolutely NONE of my business. I wonder if these protesters object to CEO pay as _shareholders_, or merely as bystanders taking potshots from the peanut gallery.

[Edited 2011-10-17 10:00:23]
 
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WarRI1
Posts: 13360
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:19 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 239):
The populist ignorance of banking and economics in this thread (and on the streets) is stunning and depressing.

I do not think anyone needs an economic degree, to see and hear and feel the affects of the Financial/ Wall Street corruption, scandal, collapse of our once great economy. It is pure propaganda, from the advocates of more of the same. All I and millions more need to see, is our net worth now, and the net worth of the advocates( the super wealthy), the wannabee super wealthy, or just the wannabbe's of just wanting to be considered so.

I know it is a shock to see me using the term Net Worth, but yes, some of us unwashed, uneducated folks do know what that means. Some of us do own stock, some do read the newspapers, so they do know when they are getting screwed over. I know that I and all the people that I know, feel the same. It is quite apparent that, more are learning, around the world. Shocking, I know. I have to guess that the money and food that is pouring into New York to help these unwashed masses, shows us something. I bet King Louie XVI was sorry, he did not learn. Marie also.
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Zentraedi
Posts: 617
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:16 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 239):
It's what we've been saying all along. The motivation of the protesters is understandable, but they are protesting the wrong people.

Totally agree.
You can't expect companies to throw money around for no reason. Companies will always work for their own interests. It's the government's job to regulate and make sure those interests don't conflict with national interests.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 239):
Yeah, right, and watch New York implode as 50% of the tax revenue that supports that huge city disappears. Great move.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 239):
The populist ignorance of banking and economics in this thread (and on the streets) is stunning and depressing.

Seriously? You supported a guy and a movement which called for NYC to be turned into a Christian version of Mecca.
Have you walked through the halls of/dealt with a large, international investment firm or bank? Do you what that would do? At the large bank/securities firm where I work, most of the islamic names I come across are from our NYC branch on Wall Street!

If NYC pulled that Tea Party populist nonsense, you'd have a huge non-Christian brain drain exodus to London, Hong Kong, Sydney, etc. Hell, I bet even most of the Christian traders/bankers would soon follow.

There goes the "50% of the tax revenue that supports that huge city", which you feign concern over.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:21 pm

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 247):
Have you walked through the halls of/dealt with a large, international investment firm or bank?

Yes, I've worked for one of the oldest and largest banks in the world.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 247):
Seriously? You supported a guy and a movement which called for NYC to be turned into a Christian version of Mecca.

Huh? Whatdu talkin' bout?
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:17 am

Irony alert!:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m..._occupation_oh3CnKANUqYHrGPCaZaLRK

Quote:
Occupy Wall Street protesters said yesterday that packs of brazen crooks within their ranks have been robbing their fellow demonstrators blind, making off with pricey cameras, phones and laptops -- and even a hefty bundle of donated cash and food.

“Stealing is our biggest problem at the moment,” said Nan Terrie, 18, a kitchen and legal-team volunteer from Fort Lauderdale.

“I had my Mac stolen -- that was like $5,500. Every night, something else is gone. Last night, our entire [kitchen] budget for the day was stolen, so the first thing I had to do was . . . get the message out to our supporters that we needed food!”

Crafty cat burglars sneaked into the makeshift kitchen at Zuccotti Park overnight and swiped as much as $2,500 in donated greenbacks from right under the noses of volunteers who’d fallen asleep after a long day whipping up meals for the hundreds of hungry protesters, the volunteers said.

These folks say they want income redistribution but complain when someone avails themselves to their stuff. FAIL!
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.

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