jcs17
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:22 am

I like Apple products a lot. However, I think the veneration is a bit over the top. He was a very flawed character who came up with some great ideas.

He completely ignored his shareholders and continued at his position while he was very sick, all the while having Apple put out press releases saying that he was healthy. From many accounts, he was a terrible manager who was obsessed with power and was unwilling to cede authority. I don't know about many of you, but if I had accumulated the wealth of Mr. Jobs, I would want to spend my last years with my family, not spending 12 hours a day at the office.
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Klaus
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:48 pm



Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 135):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 134):
Eradicating Steve Jobs from history would not just take the products away that are actually branded "Apple".

Don't get me wrong! I don't want his work "eradicated". I've already said he was a visionary.

That wasn't my point. My point was that Jobs pushed into the right direction at several crucial junctures of the development of the information age. Without his involvement, the digital landscape would be very different today, since plenty of people pushed into very different directions and would have prevailed without him.

I've been following these events and I have accumulated pretty good insight into the technological and market forces through these past decades by being directly involved in the field almost back to the start of Apple.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 135):
When you enter the PC market there's not a whole lot that Apple produces that's "affordable". I could get a computer with similar computing power for half the price if I don't shop in an Apple store.

There are cheaper PCs around, but the Apple products are still readily affordable and overall provide the same or better value for money in total.

Apple made computers affordable and usable for everyone – and they've been at it extremely consistently from the Apple II right up to the iPad.

No more are computers unimaginably expensive pieces of technology which only big corporations and the government could afford, and no more are they so hard to use that only there people would be paid for such chores.

That people are increasingly actually enjoying the use of their computers is to a large part owed to Apple and to Steve Jobs personally with his fundamental belief that not people were somehow inadequate and needed to be "fixed" so they could cope with computers, but that computers had been inadequate and needed to be fixed so they could cope with people.

The development of the original Macintosh, but also the development of the iPhone and iPad are stark examples of this core belief.

This is the big thing that separated Jobs from almost everybody else in the technology field, and why he mattered.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 135):
That's a big leap. Having the availability of international air travel allows families separated by thousands of miles and oceans to be together in more than a virtual way. Without cars people couldn't easily commute 30 miles a day in most communities. I've lived without a computer for days, I'm not sure the majority of the developed world could function without a car. As others have said, in many parts of the world just having a 1G cell phone is a huge improvement on their quality of life.

Most people have very little and relatively rare contact with aviation.

Most people have very frequent and often intense contact with digital technology and its user interfaces, however.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 137):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 134):
His primary achievement was to put individual people in charge of their own computing resources

That has to be a joke, right? We're talking about the same guy who made his sole life purpose to make his clients as dependent from him as possible by locking every single thing that could possibly be locked short of actually chaining the devices to the shelves of the stores, correct?

No. The problem with that popular meme is that it has almost zero substance to actually back it up.

Let's look at the two ways Apple actually exerts restrictions:

• DRM in movies and TV shows sold and rented through iTunes: The studios and production companies simply would not allow their content to be distributed without DRM. This is in no way related to Apple's decision but simply unavoidable and handled that way everywhere. Even under Android the only commercial video content available (and there is much less) is only available on devices which are locked down and not "rooted".

• iOS Apps: Applications are of course always platform-specific by necessity, so the Windows applications you own "bind" you to the Windows platform just as much as iOS apps "bind" me to the iOS platform. But that Apple is vetting and validating every single app in the App Store has in fact turned out to be a major security feature for iOS users (in particular relativ to the rampant malware on Android through its market place which has no oversight but has free access for everyone – including criminals).

And that's it. I can use and access whatever content I want through any Apple device. No "dependency" whatsoever.

I can program and modify my Macs as I see fit, including the use of pretty much any Unix-based software with a simple configure / make. If I really had the need, I could also do that with my iOS devices.

But the thing many people are completely missing in their ideological rants is that for almost all users, a theoretical freedom is completely useless as long as it isn't made actually accessible to them.

I for my part am an experienced digital developer who could build his own computer from scratch (from available chip sets, bare logic gates or even transistors if need be), develop and toggle in its operating system and then create the software I want for it (I've actually done that a few times by now).

But for almost all users of digital technology today, that is simply not an option. If some theoretical capability is not available with a really decent, layman-compatible user interface, it is just as if it wouldn't exist at all.

And that has the (only superficially) paradoxical consequence of iOS giving hundreds of millions of users a much greater degree of actually experienced freedom than for instance Android, by providing easier, safer access to a much greater selection of legitimate, user-friendly and high-quality tools which they can actually use in practice and without having to fear getting ripped off or even burglarized.

"Dependency" on something that doesn't actually coerce, limit or censor you, but instead enhances your reach, gives your own capabilities a real boost without wracking your nerves may offend you on some ideological level, but commercially viable products have always had an element of "dependency".

In this case it's just the mutual dependency of the user on the manufacturer's proper conduct and continued support on the one hand and of the manufacturer on the user's continued satisfaction and his/her continued intent of future product purchases.

Which is pretty much a balanced situation, all in all, and by no means a unilateral dependency.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 142):
Of course it is. Apple has thousands of people creating their products. Sure, Steve Jobs probably had a lot of input and whatnot, but there is no way that he himself created everything.

That is true, of course. But Steve Jobs has been an unusually hands-on CEO with regards to his products. Many of Apple's product features and particularly the strategic philosophy at their foundation go back to Jobs directly. He wasn't just (or even predominantly) the one to keep the business going (that was mostly Tim Cook's job for years already), he was above all a guy totally obsessing over the actual products, with none of the major ones going out the door without his explicit consent and after exhaustive refinement under his personal oversight and involvement.

Quoting racko (Reply 148):
For the thousandth time, LG Prada. Technology was very much going in this direction, it just happened faster due to Apple.

The LG Prada had nothing on the iPhone except a superficially similiar main icon menu. And that's also exactly where any similarity ended as well and that's just a minor functional aspect of the iOS devices.

Quoting racko (Reply 148):
That would be Bill Gates. Ford democratized cars, as Microsoft and the respective hardware makers democratized personal computers. In that analogy, Jobs would be someone of the likes of Carl Benz or Gottlieb Daimler.The vast majority of people on this planet can't afford an Apple PC, just as the vast majority of people couldn't and can't afford a Mercedes-Benz.

Most people can very much afford Apple products (and hundreds of millions do already), but for every quality product there's always one that's a little (or even a lot) more cheaply made, providing less value for less money. Nothing new about it, but also rarely really a good deal when looked at in the long run.

Quoting racko (Reply 148):
Jesus, read what you're writing. White knight Steve fighting against the evil villain Gates. Donating billions of dollars? "Trying to buy some absolution".

That is surely my subjective interpretation, but when you get right down to it, Gates was a gifted and ruthless opportunist who exploited opportunities which presented themselves to him with very conventional thinking and very few ideas of his own. He has done extremely little for the actual advancement of the digital art, he was all about volume - and primarily about making money in volume and gaining power through market penetration.

Jobs was all about the actual products and their qualities and cared relatively little about money beyond keeping him independent enough to keep making the products he wanted himself (most of his personal wealth came from his investment in Pixar, not from his work at Apple).

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 150):
I like Apple products a lot. However, I think the veneration is a bit over the top. He was a very flawed character who came up with some great ideas.

And nobody has ever denied that. The point is just that his massive achievements by very, very far still outmatched his very considerable flaws.

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 150):
He completely ignored his shareholders

By far most of them don't complain. Apple shareholder meetings have never seen more than marginal grumbling from a few, but almost universal support for the course taken.

Jobs' sickness was disclosed in time and the potential outcome was no secret either. Daily updates on his health were neither required nor would they have had any benefit beyond being a massive distraction.

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 150):
From many accounts, he was a terrible manager who was obsessed with power and was unwilling to cede authority.

He was only the most successful and most revered CEO of his generation. He must really have been terribly bad at it.
 

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 150):
I don't know about many of you, but if I had accumulated the wealth of Mr. Jobs, I would want to spend my last years with my family, not spending 12 hours a day at the office.

Apple as it is today was his brainchild and his obsession. He'd have been very distracted if you had forcibly removed him from doing what he loved doing.

Nobody but his actual family could say whether he really neglected them in his last days.

[Edited 2011-10-08 07:55:53]
 
Ken777
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:16 pm

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 150):
He completely ignored his shareholders and continued at his position while he was very sick, all the while having Apple put out press releases saying that he was healthy. From many accounts, he was a terrible manager who was obsessed with power and was unwilling to cede authority. I don't know about many of you, but if I had accumulated the wealth of Mr. Jobs, I would want to spend my last years with my family, not spending 12 hours a day at the office.

Hard today that Jobs ignored his shareholders when he delivered the best results of any major CEO. Look at the growth in share value. Then look at cash holdings - a good sign of future protection. Profits? Growth in market share? And, as one article covered, solid product road maps for the next 4 years. If the other CEOs in the Fortune 500 delivered the performance of Jobs when he has been sick the country would be out of the Great Recession today.

As far how to spend your last years, both the wife & I have been through 2 cancers each and living a "normal" life has been a priority - even if we had to take time out for surgeries and chemo/radiation treatments. Cancer doesn't make you a freak - just a little bit different than before.

With Jobs passion for Apple it isn't hard to understand he would want to maintain involvement as much as possible. For him it was far better than simply staying at home counting money.
 
LMP737
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:45 pm

Headline from the Onion, has a ring of truth to it.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/las...-what-the-fuck-he-was-doing,26268/
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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mariner
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:26 pm

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 150):
I don't know about many of you, but if I had accumulated the wealth of Mr. Jobs, I would want to spend my last years with my family, not spending 12 hours a day at the office.

I'm an obsessive about my work. I want (and intend) to spend the last years of my life putting all my energy into my writing.

I tried giving it up, after I had cancer, and became very bored - and very boring. When I started writing again, all my friends and family breathed a huge sigh of relief.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Springbok747
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:20 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 140):
Why are your grapes so sour? And why do you think it is necessary to fill an obituary thread with your rants? Leave it be or start another thread if you feel the need to rant about Apple/Steve Jobs. Give it a rest dude, he just died 2 days ago.

I didn't write that..someone else did...please quote correctly before blaming people here..thanks.
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mham001
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:22 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 151):
And that's it. I can use and access whatever content I want through any Apple device. No "dependency" whatsoever.

Nonsense. What program are you required to use to access any media content on your Apple products?
 
Pyrex
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:49 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 152):
Hard today that Jobs ignored his shareholders when he delivered the best results of any major CEO.

He never returned a single dollar to shareholders. He was an obsessive hoarder who accumulated $70 billion of shareholder cash (enough to cover three years of full operating expenses without any revenue) with no intention of ever returning it to its owners. Kind of reminiscent of a modern day Uncle Scrooge, without the actual swimming in gold coins (that we know of).

Quoting mariner (Reply 154):
I'm an obsessive about my work. I want (and intend) to spend the last years of my life putting all my energy into my writing.

I tried giving it up, after I had cancer, and became very bored - and very boring. When I started writing again, all my friends and family breathed a huge sigh of relief.

Retirement is the leading cause of death in the U.S.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:01 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 157):
He never returned a single dollar to shareholders.

Um, was it just up to him to decide this course of action, or were there a board of directors that made these types of decisions.

Anyway, whatever the case, didn't stop people investing in the company though did it, and big time too ?
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
wn700driver
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:14 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 50):

Steve jobs did quite well for himself, and more power to him for that, but it's not like he perfected nuclear fusion.

Seriously. That app isn't due out for another week!

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 64):

No it wasn't. Not one bit. Go ask a starving Somalian kid whether his life improved any bit because of Steve Jobs.
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 71):

Again, go tell a starving Somalian kid if he'd agree. I think we all know the answer to that one.

Soooooooooo.... you're not doing anything worth anything unless you're helping starving Somalians... I realize that to some of us here, I guess you can't have made the world a better place without the approval of the starving Somalian commission, but there's more to it than that. In fact, way more.

I don't honestly know enough about Steve Jobs to say if he did or not, but there are so many ways to make the world a better place that is simply short sighted as hell to assume that one didn't.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:20 am

There's been a lot of back and forth on this thread. I think I'll leave it as, yes he was a very intelligent, marketing genius, with an industry leading design skill.

I don't and will never understand why there's this mass mourning for him though. Klaus, I understand you respect him and I agree he made a great contribution to his industry. There's no doubt about that. Both he and Gates started roughly around the same time in the industry, even though Jobs got booted from Apple in an era of major growth at Microsoft where we saw software developed that effects my industry every day. It really wasn't until around the early to mid-2000's with the iPod and later in '07 the iPhone that people who were never exposed to his products ended up becoming fans of his products.

Whatever the comparisons he was a great businessman. Just like Gates he steered the industry, but his genius was always in design. The same thing could be said about HP, without it Jobs would probably not have gotten in the computer industry. People that love design love his products.

Will any of you cry for Gates when he dies? I use his products everyday, whether you like them or not, products like Excel and Word have had more impact on my professional career for 15 years. Most people only recently owned Mac products via the iPod and iPhone.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
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mariner
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:12 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 157):
He never returned a single dollar to shareholders.

I can't think of many companies that pay a divided that represents anything bur fractional return on the investment.

Most investors, institutional and individual, buy shares in the expectation that the price will rise, and - eventually - they will realize those profits.

Which was precisely what happened, for many, at Apple.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 160):
Will any of you cry for Gates when he dies?

Cry? Of course not. It seems to be the the bashers - the anti-iCultists - are being far more melodramatic than the fans.

I don't "cry" for Steve Jobs. I note the passing of someone whom I consider to be a remarkable person and pay my respects.

mariner

[Edited 2011-10-09 02:14:12]
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Klaus
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:54 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 153):
Headline from the Onion, has a ring of truth to it.

Classic Onion!   

As a non-american I always thought that Steve Jobs seemed very much "un-american" in his approach to most things: Concentration and reduction instead of expansion, quality above quantity, product value above cheapest possible price, taking the long-term view instead of just short-term profits.

But he also was a one-man proof that the clichés of "how all americans are" are just a small part of the truth, if that – in the end he is probably just the highly visible exception to many less prominent americans with similar attitudes.

Maybe the loudly screaming over-simplifiers in the US public just need to get out of the way again to get people in charge who actually have a clue...
 
Quoting mham001 (Reply 156):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 151):
And that's it. I can use and access whatever content I want through any Apple device. No "dependency" whatsoever.

Nonsense. What program are you required to use to access any media content on your Apple products?

There are many ways to use and organize media on Apple computers and devices and there simply isn't a "dependency" on Apple in what content I can use, even though that meme looks so tempting when starting at the "right" preconceived opinion.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 157):
He never returned a single dollar to shareholders.

Growing companies return value to their shareholders through a growing stock price.
Saturated or stagnating companies tend to do the same via dividends.

It's the same thing either way: Stockholders get a return on their investment.

Apple is the most valuable publically traded company on the planet at this point, which would normally coincide with being saturated or stagnant. But they are still agile like a startup and also still growing like one.

I doubt they'll switch to a dividend structure anytime soon.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 160):
It really wasn't until around the early to mid-2000's with the iPod and later in '07 the iPhone that people who were never exposed to his products ended up becoming fans of his products.


Even if you've never used a computing product which actually carried an Apple label you've still been using products which were heavily influenced by Apple since that's where many technologies were brought into their present form, including the graphical user interface you're using right now.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 160):
Will any of you cry for Gates when he dies?

I haven't cried for Jobs either, but I'll miss Jobs' impact while Gates' retirement was no loss for the development of information technology.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 160):
I use his products everyday, whether you like them or not, products like Excel and Word have had more impact on my professional career for 15 years.

Gates pushed other companies out of the market not so much by actually presenting better products but by sheer power plays, notably by accidentally having been put in a dominant position by IBM bungling its PC software licensing deal.

Ruthlessly exploiting that unearned advantage since then and coasting along on the sheer inertia of that mistake without actually contributing much to the overall development of the information age is not something I'm too impressed with.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:50 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 161):
I can't think of many companies that pay a divided that represents anything bur fractional return on the investment.

Most investors, institutional and individual, buy shares in the expectation that the price will rise, and - eventually - they will realize those profits.

Wrong, All investment decisions are based on cash flows. Even the most pie-in-the-sky start-up business plan is predicated on eventually being able to return cash to shareholders. That is why the dot-com bubble eventually deflated.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 162):
Growing companies return value to their shareholders through a growing stock price.
Saturated or stagnating companies tend to do the same via dividends.

It's the same thing either way: Stockholders get a return on their investment.

Again, wrong. Companies return the capital they do not need to shareholders, regardless of whether they are growing or not. Apple clearly has no use for such a huge pile of cash - it does not need a huge R&D budget as its brainwashed legion of followers will pay $499 for a turd, provided it has a shiny plastic casing and is named the iCrap. It faces no risk of financial insolvency even in the deepest of crisis (again, have enough cash for three years of operating expenses, with no revenues). The only reason they accumulated such a huge pile of cash is because Steve Jobs (RIP) was a megalomaniac and the Board of Directors rolled over to his whims.
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Ken777
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:14 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 148):
For the thousandth time, LG Prada.

And, in reality, just what did it accomplish? Big time profitability? Doubt it.

The other reality, companies like LG and Apple spend a fait amount of time developing their products. For Apple, the first breakthrough was in software. When they reached a certain point on (what is now iOS) they made a choice to go with the iPhone first - then spent 2 years developing it before it hit the market. The Prada was not released far enough before the iPhone for it to be a game changer.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 157):
He never returned a single dollar to shareholders. He was an obsessive hoarder who accumulated $70 billion of shareholder cash (enough to cover three years of full operating expenses without any revenue) with no intention of ever returning it to its owners. Kind of reminiscent of a modern day Uncle Scrooge, without the actual swimming in gold coins (that we know of).

There are two ways to serve shareholders well. Paying dividend is a pretty simple approach, but generally is limited. If a company consistently returns a 20% dividend then the market would push the price of the shares up to reflect a more realistic level.

The other way to serve shareholders is to add value to their shares. Look at Apples share value for the past 10 years and, Bingo!, you can see why Jobs was considered the best CEO of the decade.

As far as Apple's cash holdings go, start evaluations of it with a review of how bad a shape Apple was in when Jobs returned. Being close to bankruptcy is a real good lesson in the need to have access to cash.

Next, remember that Apple's cash position has two important impacts on the P&L (and, therefore, share price). It eliminates interest expenses that can be pretty harmful to a company (or country) over time and it increases revenues through interest earned and other income from various investments. Both impacts results in positive impacts on the P&L as well as share price.

Then remember that Apple has been very effective in using some of their cash to support their projects. they spent almost $4 Billion in prepaying for components in one year because they believed they'd would need those parts. Pretty well stunned the industry at the time, and very effective. Apple has made other investments like that, but has been keeping the products secret to minimize competitors catching up. Apple has also helped component suppliers with finance for additional production. The result is increased production when needed, minimizing component costs and more profits. Some where in that long list is additional increases in share price.
 
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mariner
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:29 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 163):
Wrong, All investment decisions are based on cash flows. Even the most pie-in-the-sky start-up business plan is predicated on eventually being able to return cash to shareholders. That is why the dot-com bubble eventually deflated.

Most start-ups - even the most pie-in-the-sky - are based on perceptions of profitability and the venture capitalist(s) getting rich. But very few venture capitalists get rich from dividends.

The vc's in JetBlue didn't get rich from dividends - but they, like George Soros, made a crap load of money.

I was a shareholder in AAPL. I bought a few at $12 when Mr. Jobs came back and sold at $100. I kick myself when I think what I could have made, but I was happy at the time - I made money.

mariner

[Edited 2011-10-09 12:40:05]
aeternum nauta
 
racko
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:35 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 164):
And, in reality, just what did it accomplish? Big time profitability? Doubt it.

The other reality, companies like LG and Apple spend a fait amount of time developing their products. For Apple, the first breakthrough was in software. When they reached a certain point on (what is now iOS) they made a choice to go with the iPhone first - then spent 2 years developing it before it hit the market. The Prada was not released far enough before the iPhone for it to be a game changer.

What's your point? All I said was that the claim that a "touch the screen with your fingers phone" concept existed without the iPhone. His claim was that without the iPhone the smartphones of 2011 would still look like the smartphones of 2006, which they wouldn't, because, shockingly, there are intelligent people working at other companies, too and eventually the best concept wins and the products look alike. That's why an A350 looks like a 787, which looks like an A330 , which looks like a 767, which looks like an A300.
 
D L X
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:48 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 166):
All I said was that the claim that a "touch the screen with your fingers phone" concept existed without the iPhone.

I really don't think you believe that all an iPhone is can be reduced to a "touch the screen with your fingers phone." Hell, I don't think you believe that your beloved Samsung S2 is just a "touch the screen with your fingers phone." It doesn't help your argument when you purposely downplay significant achievements.

You keep carting out this LG Prada argument every time you want to downplay the significance of the iPhone, yet look at what the Prada was: a phone that had a touchscreen, and that touchscreen simply mimicked what regular buttons did on its competitors.

Your example actually illustrates the genius of Steve Jobs. LG sees a technology of a touch screen, and uses it to make exactly what was already out there. Jobs took a touch screen and turned it into something completely new.
 
Ken777
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:47 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 163):
Apple clearly has no use for such a huge pile of cash - it does not need a huge R&D budget as its brainwashed legion of followers will pay $499 for a turd, provided it has a shiny plastic casing and is named the iCrap.

Looks like you have problems understanding Apple, both in the products they sell as in the approach they have taken in the area of financial management.  
 
Springbok747
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:08 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 168):
in the products they sell

There is no doubt that Apple refined the iphone and made it an appealing instrument - a phone, a music player, a PDA etc all in one, no wonder it sold (and is still selling) millions. But the fact remains that this technology existed before the iphone - Apple just managed to put it all together in an attractive (to look at and use) package and employed amazing marketing techniques to make people actually want it. They've done this to all their products - kudos to them. But the fact remains that most of their products (such as computers) utilize components made by other companies - such as Intel and others - which is pretty similar to other Windows based PCs - yet Apple charges way more than the other companies. Why? Surely this can't be due to software alone. And last I checked, aluminum is not that expensive either..
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mariner
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:10 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 169):
But the fact remains that this technology existed before the iphone - Apple just managed to put it all together in an attractive (to look at and use) package and employed amazing marketing techniques to make people actually want it.

Sure the technology was there - and Apple used it. What's the issue with that?

The technology for Windows was there long before it happened. Windows is only a way to make the user-not-so-friendly PC more like the user-very-friendly Macintosh. Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Flighty
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:09 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 146):
So, it is not asinine at all. It's a reasonable interpretation of history.

Right, it's the "obvious in retrospect" fallacy. Elegant business models and artworks are considered obvious once somebody has thought of it and demonstrated it is the ideal approach.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 169):
such as Intel and others - which is pretty similar to other Windows based PCs - yet Apple charges way more than the other companies. Why?

Because the value of the equipment equals the usefulness that people can get out of it. If people can't use their equipment properly, then it is worth very little money. So, Apple's equipment is worth more money... to most people.

Of course, they did not invent the transistor, but... they design and sell products that work well. Indeed, they are made up of _thousands_ of tiny parts that, individually, are worth nothing to people.
 
Ken777
Posts: 9993
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:35 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 169):
yet Apple charges way more than the other companies. Why? Surely this can't be due to software alone. And last I checked, aluminum is not that expensive either..

To a very large degree it is about software and the efforts that Apple puts into their OSes, and consumer suites.

As far as the aluminum goes, head to:

http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/

and click on 'Watch the unibody video". It gives a pretty good idea of the design efforts that went into the MacBook. Now talk to an engineer about the benefits of this design.

So the MaBook Pro starts at $1,199 (unless you get one of the many discounts) and the MacBook Air starts at $999.

And before you get too convinced in the lack of efforts Apple puts into their products that justify their costs) take a good look at how well HP did with their tablet - dumping them for $100 each very shortly after it's introduction.

Quoting mariner (Reply 170):
Sure the technology was there - and Apple used it. What's the issue with that?

The interesting fact is that the windows type GUI was developed by Xerox - a company that was actually selling PCs at the time. MS DOS based computers. For them it was a clever bit of R&D in the labs. They actually let Apple look at their work during the initial stages - must have figured there was no future in it. Apple, and especially Steve Jobs, saw the potential and went on to invest the money and talent to develop the Mac. Anyone thinking that moving from the initial Xerox work to the Mac was simple needs to remember that it took years for MS to deliver Win 3.1 and 10 years to develop Win 95 - a somewhat close version of the Mac.

The most money Xerox made from their efforts was from Apple's peek.

That pretty well defines Jobs ability to think ahead of the game.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:07 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 164):
Next, remember that Apple's cash position has two important impacts on the P&L (and, therefore, share price)

Oh, I am sorry Professor Ken, must have missed that class in Corporate Finance that said the optimal capital structure was to accumulate a crapload of cash for which you have no use for. And here me thinking that Modigliani and Miller knew anything about corporate finance (just because they won a Nobel prize, the snooty bastards).

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 164):
It eliminates interest expenses that can be pretty harmful to a company

Where exactly did I say they should take on a crapload of debt?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 164):
increases revenues through interest earned

At 0.25% interest rates? Because that is where their strength is, administering $70 billion in cash... not something shareholders can do themselves, if they wish.

Quoting mariner (Reply 165):
Most start-ups - even the most pie-in-the-sky - are based on perceptions of profitability and the venture capitalist(s) getting rich.

Most venture-capital based start-ups are based on the greater fool theory - the notion that a few years down the road you will be able to find some idiot to take it off your hands for more than you paid for it. That is why the greatest predictor of the success of a VC fund is the performance of the Nasdaq market 3 years after capital raising. But for the poor schmucks who are stupid enough to buy those companies at IPO, eventually the cash will need to come in.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
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mariner
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:51 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 173):
Most venture-capital based start-ups are based on the greater fool theory - the notion that a few years down the road you will be able to find some idiot to take it off your hands for more than you paid for it.

Of course. That isn't rare on Wall Street.

But almost all start-ups are funded initially by "venture capitalists" - even if those vc's are only the person who had the idea and his family chipping in.

Very few companies, if any, go straight to an IPO. Someone has to fund what they are selling to the market and that someone is, by definition, a venture capitalist - providing capital for the venture.

Isn't this a long, long way from the death of Mr. Jobs?

  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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Asturias
Posts: 1977
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:39 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 163):
Wrong, All investment decisions are based on cash flows. Even the most pie-in-the-sky start-up business plan is predicated on eventually being able to return cash to shareholders. That is why the dot-com bubble eventually deflated.

Very true! Now let's see if Klaus understands such fundamentalities, he sure didn't last time I tried to explain exactly the same to him   

asturias
Tonight we fly
 
Klaus
Posts: 21485
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:19 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 175):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 163):
Wrong, All investment decisions are based on cash flows. Even the most pie-in-the-sky start-up business plan is predicated on eventually being able to return cash to shareholders. That is why the dot-com bubble eventually deflated.

Very true! Now let's see if Klaus understands such fundamentalities, he sure didn't last time I tried to explain exactly the same to him

Maybe you should re-check on that: Whether any money earned would have been discharged to the stockholders or re-invested in the company had absolutely nothing to do with the bursting of the dot-com bubble. The dot-com bubble actually burst because most of the companies didn't earn the money to justify their stock prices (if any at all!) and the stockholders finally clued up to that.

Apple actually has a relatively solid price/earnings ratio.

And that they "couldn't possibly use" their accumulated cash is an assessment on which I might put more trust in the people who actually got the cash there in the first place and who are keeping it around for strategic investments (as they've already used it), and likely for strategic defense.

Their decisions are backed up by $300+ Billion of solid company valuation, including north of $75 Billion in cash and continuing solid growth in every metric.

What is backing up your assessment by comparison?
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4720
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:31 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 174):
But almost all start-ups are funded initially by "venture capitalists" - even if those vc's are only the person who had the idea and his family chipping in.

Agreed. But when that venture capital comes from some VC fund, most of the time all they are thinking of is "how much money will I make once this thing IPOs?"

Quoting Klaus (Reply 176):
Their decisions are backed up by $300+ Billion of solid company valuation, including north of $75 Billion in cash and continuing solid growth in every metric.

What is backing up your assessment by comparison?

A fundamental understanding of corporate finance, and the knowledge that they have no possible use for $75 billion worth of cash.

But I am done debating this topic. This is precisely the kind of things that irks so many people about Steve Jobs (RIP) - the inability for his fanboys to recognize any fault to the man or his company, excusing actions they would vilify other people for (what would they say if Microsoft accumulated such a stash of cash?).
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
D L X
Posts: 12637
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RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:53 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 177):
This is precisely the kind of things that irks so many people about Steve Jobs (RIP) - the inability for his fanboys to recognize any fault to the man or his company, excusing actions they would vilify other people for

This is what I don't understand. People hate that Apple has fans, call ANYONE that lauds them a "fanboy," and then overreact by downplaying Apple's and Steve Jobs' achievements.

It's like hating Michael Jackson because girls fainted at his concerts.
 
Ken777
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:36 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 173):
Oh, I am sorry Professor Ken

I'm not a Professor - just a guy who had his own little business and discovered the hard way the difference between debt and cash holdings. I'm not talking about cash for analysis, I'm talking about impacts on the P%L.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 173):
the optimal capital structure

Optimal for what type of company?

It's pretty odd that Apple's bumbling of their cash holdings has let them move on decisions that have made them one of the most valuable companies in the world, while other companies with far more optimal cash management falls further & further behind.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 173):
Where exactly did I say they should take on a crapload of debt?

If you don't have sufficient free cash (free from banker's involvement in your planning) it makes it pretty difficult to heavily finance long term programs like the iPhone & iPad. Makes it a bit more expensive to spend the billions that Apple does on pre-payment of components, investing in supplier's production facilities, etc.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 173):
At 0.25% interest rates?

My bet is that they do better than that.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 177):
A fundamental understanding of corporate finance, and the knowledge that they have no possible use for $75 billion worth of cash.

And there is no way that Apple could make money on a phone - they are a computer company.

And there is no way that Apple will do well in the tablet market, other companies have tried so we know how little sales are available in that tiny segment.

Quoting D L X (Reply 178):
This is what I don't understand. People hate that Apple has fans, call ANYONE that lauds them a "fanboy," and then overreact by downplaying Apple's and Steve Jobs' achievements.

A lot of that is related to now really understanding Apple's products. Before the Apple Stores were open there wasn't a lot of opportunities to spend some time on a Mac. You may have had a friend who would show you, or a local CompUSA with a real Apple rep. With the Apple Stores people were able to walk in and spend some time on a Mac. Then came the iPod, and that brought a lot more people in.

Between the iPod and iPhone and (now) iPad there are a lot more people in the stores looking. And they see the Macs as well as the mobile devices. And they are buying. To the point where those dissing Apple's customers are more and more in the minority.
 
Acheron
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:47 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 178):
People hate that Apple has fans

No, all companies usually have their fanbase(lol, do you really think that Apple is the only company with fans as well?). What people hate is how OBNOXIOUS Apple fans can be, specially the militant, almost-jehovah-witness-door-to-door-preacher type of fanboy of which Apple has way too many.

One just need to look at this thread.

Heck, not even Boeing or Airbus at the best of times has that many annoyingly rabid fanboys back in (un)Civ-Av.
 
SA7700
Posts: 2930
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

RE: Steve Jobs Has Died

Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:06 pm

This thread will be locked as unfortunately it has been derailed from a memorial thread into an Apple bashing thread. Any posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.


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