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WarRI1
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New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:54 am

I would like to hear any comments on the Republican Debate. I thought the response was subdued from the crowd.

[Edited 2011-10-11 18:55:21]
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MCOGVADCA
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:27 am

I thought Huntsman nailed it. However, I'm apparently the only one.

Loved the questioning between the candidates.

Also, while I don't particularly care for him, I thought Santorum had a strong night, and that the Perry train is slowly coming to a halt.
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:37 am

Quoting MCOGVADCA (Reply 1):
Loved the questioning between the candidates.

Yes, the night of the long knives.

Quoting MCOGVADCA (Reply 1):
Also, while I don't particularly care for him, I thought Santorum had a strong night, and that the Perry train is slowly coming to a halt.

I think he is a phoney, he just does not strike me as sincere. I liked how Ron Paul socked it to Cain about Greenspan, and how he pointed out that these Fed/ financial troubles started long before Obama.
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:41 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):
I think he is a phoney, he just does not strike me as sincere.

Oh, I absolutely agree, but for the first time, he answered questions in a way that didn't come off as entirely nonsensical.I meant more "in relative terms, he had a good debate."

Also, I thought Romney looked a little flustered with the Q&A sesh, especially his almost-South Parkian "Lemme finish, lemme finish....ok I'm finished."
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:51 am

Quoting MCOGVADCA (Reply 3):
Also, I thought Romney looked a little flustered with the Q&A sesh, especially his almost-South Parkian "Lemme finish, lemme finish....ok I'm finished."

I am glad you mentioned Romney. I thought he was stiffed by the question about Obama's job plan by the young lady. She asked him about the extension of the paycheck tax cut in the jobs bill, that will expire. She asked him twice, if he was Ok with the expiration, and the resulting tax increase. He completely side-stepped twice. He knew what was coming next, the question about the position of no tax increases by the Republicans. Egg on his face, I thought.
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:08 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
I am glad you mentioned Romney. I thought he was stiffed by the question about Obama's job plan by the young lady. She asked him about the extension of the paycheck tax cut in the jobs bill, that will expire. She asked him twice, if he was Ok with the expiration, and the resulting tax increase. He completely side-stepped twice. He knew what was coming next, the question about the position of no tax increases by the Republicans. Egg on his face, I thought.

He definitely didn't handle that exchange very well. As we see more and more of Romney, we see someone who understands what is feasible, but also what he has to say to appease the more ardent in the Republican base. However, he doesn't always straddle this line in an elegant fashion. This was a good example of that: As a realist, he knows this very well might be on the negotiation table if he were elected president; He also knows that, if he were to condone any raise in taxes prior to being elected, his prospects of securing the nomination would diminish.
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:16 am

Quoting MCOGVADCA (Reply 5):
He definitely didn't handle that exchange very well. As we see more and more of Romney, we see someone who understands what is feasible, but also what he has to say to appease the more ardent in the Republican base. However, he doesn't always straddle this line in an elegant fashion. This was a good example of that: As a realist, he knows this very well might be on the negotiation table if he were elected president; He also knows that, if he were to condone any raise in taxes prior to being elected, his prospects of securing the nomination would diminish.

I agree, he does skate from one side to another, trying to satisfy all. The problem with that, is you can end up satisfying no one. I certainly like your summation of Romney's handling of that question. Well said.
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:20 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
The problem with that, is you can end up satisfying no one. I certainly like your summation of Romney's handling of that question. Well said.

Likewise!
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:43 am

Where did you find it on TV?

I spent 10 minutes trying to find the debate and I gave up and watched soccer.
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:06 am

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 8):
Where did you find it on TV?

I spent 10 minutes trying to find the debate and I gave up and watched soccer.

It was on Bloomberg. Took me ten minutes to find it as well. I liked that they focused solely on the economy for this debate, which allowed us to get (at least more than usual) away from the superficial soundbites and more into the issues.
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:30 pm

Quoting MCOGVADCA (Reply 9):
It was on Bloomberg. Took me ten minutes to find it as well. I liked that they focused solely on the economy for this debate, which allowed us to get (at least more than usual) away from the superficial soundbites and more into the issues.

I have to assume 2 things, one is that nobody on here knew it was on. Two that there was such a muted reaction during the debate from the audience, that no one on here had the heart to debate the merits of the cannidates. I find that amazing, where were the usual respondents to everything about Republican's. I am an Independent voter, but I at least watch both sides of the aisle. I commend you for entering into a civilized discussion.

[Edited 2011-10-12 08:43:56]
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:10 pm

Gee, no one wants to talk about the debate! I am surprised that the more vociferous members aren't here.

It is probably becasue it was mostly a snoozer I think. The candidates that excites the Republican faithful are not living up to expectations. Perry again didn't do well in a debate setting and because of that continues to lose. Bachmann was pretty much a non-factor with no memorable lines. Cain was mostly attacked because he was the new threat to the rest (and has an overly simplistic tax plan that he cannot explain how it will get passed if he is elected). And while Romney "won" by all appearances, he is the one candidate that the Republican's are least excited by and seem to want least to win.

The rest, while they mostly held they own actually, are pretty much non-factors in current polling. Maybe as things progress and others lose their luster they (Huntsman, Santorum, Paul, Gingrich) may come back but for now they are just back drops for the others.

It was a snoozer, but it was a decent debate.

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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:57 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
I have to assume 2 things, one is that nobody on here knew it was on. Two that there was such a muted reaction during the debate from the audience, that no one on here had the heart to debate the merits of the cannidates. I find that amazing, where were the usual respondents to everything about Republican's. I am an Independent voter, but I at least watch both sides of the aisle. I commend you for entering into a civilized discussion.

I agree with your analysis...and I'm working on being less antagonistic!

Quoting tugger (Reply 11):
It is probably becasue it was mostly a snoozer I think. The candidates that excites the Republican faithful are not living up to expectations. Perry again didn't do well in a debate setting and because of that continues to lose. Bachmann was pretty much a non-factor with no memorable lines. Cain was mostly attacked because he was the new threat to the rest (and has an overly simplistic tax plan that he cannot explain how it will get passed if he is elected). And while Romney "won" by all appearances, he is the one candidate that the Republican's are least excited by and seem to want least to win.

The rest, while they mostly held they own actually, are pretty much non-factors in current polling. Maybe as things progress and others lose their luster they (Huntsman, Santorum, Paul, Gingrich) may come back but for now they are just back drops for the others.

It was a snoozer, but it was a decent debate.

All good points.

And potentially one other contributing factor is that a lot of people don't get Bloomberg. I only get it because I pay for the extra financial package (with CNBC World) cause I'm into that sorta stuff. But if I wasn't, there's no way I'd pay an extra X amount per month for something I'd never watch. I'd venture that a lot of folks didn't watch it for that reason, as well.
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:40 pm

-I'm intrigued about Herman Cain's 999 plan
-Rick Perry sealed his fate, every time he opens his mouth he sounds dumber and dumber
-Ron Paul didn't get much face time but shined when he did
-Romney did solid
-Rick Santorum made a key point on the rise of poverty because of single parent households he actually did good
-Bachmann Who Knows
-Gingrich played the role of daddy again
-Huntsman the man almost put me to sleep

-I love how the candidates were allowed to ask each other questions....
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:42 pm

As one of my friends said, in that debate Ron Paul was Aaron Burr and Herman Cain was Alexander Hamilton.

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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:10 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 11):
Gee, no one wants to talk about the debate! I am surprised that the more vociferous members aren't here.

Unfortunately it was not widely broadcast and I've only seen bits and pieces. But a couple of notes.

Right now, it seems to be a process of elimination. Perry has a habit of stepping on his crank, and appears to be the first guy to get nasty with attack ads against his fellow GOPers'. That pisses me off. And if he had anything to do with getting that preacher to start attacking Romney's Mormonism, that would piss me off even more.

Bachmann pissed me off with her stupid insinuation that Cain's 9-9-9 plan is 6-6-6 upside down. Git-the-fu_ outta here!

Huntsman comes off to me to be the classic, stereotypical country-club progressive republican, with obvious condescension toward Cain, whom he seems to consider a mere underling upstart, far removed from the upper societal crust of the nouveau riche of country club Elites, the haven of true RINOs. He said he thought the 9-9-9 plan represented the price of a pizza. OK, then shall we remind him that his daddy made his fortune designing the cardboard box to house the Big Mac? Anyone, Republican and Democrat, knows that our current tax code is an obscenity, and Cain at least has the guts to support a real solution, whether you agree with it or not. Now, we see why he would consider a man who was a self-made man from the pizza industry a lesser being worthy of contempt; after all, Huntsman inherited his money, a mark of distinction among country club Republicans. The Tea Party movement was very much a direct response to these pinheads.

Romney kept himself out of trouble - in itself not a bad strategy when your opponents seem intent at blowing themselves up.

Santorum is far too obsessed with social conservatism (as is Bachmann). I want a moratorium on anyone discussing abortion or gay marriage until we get our budget balanced, OK? It just is not that important.

I think it might end up being a fight between Cain and Romney. I still think that Gingrich would make a hell of a president, but that ain't gonna happen.

Between Romney and Cain, I am split. Cain has the vision I want, but will have to have a pretty powerful team around him to help him circumvent the fact that he has never served in public office before. Gingrich would be his ideal VP. A Cain/Gingrich administration would be huge step in the right direction.

Romney has a little more experience and a pretty professional team, is more centrist (good for the independents, I guess), and probably has the best chance at the moment of sending Obama back to Chicago, one-way. But he's not terribly far from raising the same hairs on the back of my neck as Huntsman does.

All that said, I intend to vote Obama out if it means voting for Daffy Duck.



[Edited 2011-10-12 15:10:55]
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:45 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
I think it might end up being a fight between Cain and Romney. I still think that Gingrich would make a hell of a president, but that ain't gonna happen.

  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Romney kept himself out of trouble - in itself not a bad strategy when your opponents seem intent at blowing themselves up.

  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
All that said, I intend to vote Obama out if it means voting for Daffy Duck.

And actually, this is the Republican party's entire problem right now (don't take this the wrong way).

It has become defacto the party of "Whoever is not Obama". While I take issue with the widespread use of the term RINO for so many Republican's (to many I am a RINO) because (in my opinion) the party must have a myriad of ideas/beliefs/people under it's tent but keep focus on fiscal responsibility, a platform of "anyone but Obama", is useless and damaging to the party. And that is where we are right now.

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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:02 am

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 13):
-I love how the candidates were allowed to ask each other questions....

I thought that was a great idea. Let it all hang out. When ambition and ego form the questions, it does get interesting.
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:14 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):

Bachmann pissed me off with her stupid insinuation that Cain's 9-9-9 plan is 6-6-6 upside down. Git-the-fu_ outta here!

I was stunned too when I heard that....she's a former federal tax lawyer herself but does anyone know in detail what she will do to overhaul the tax code? She's clueless

The thing about Cain is that he is actually very Libertarian on social issues.....which is why he would get my nod if Ron Paul doesn't pan out....
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:54 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 16):

And actually, this is the Republican party's entire problem right now (don't take this the wrong way).

It has become defacto the party of "Whoever is not Obama".

Why not? They guy is a disaster. He couldn't lead a kid to the crapper. His every domestic policy seems intent to dig us deeper into said crap. On the international stage he is seen more and more as a joke. He has surrounded himself with corruption - his administration is owned lock stock and barrel by special interests, particularly the likes of Goldman Sachs. He provides billions of US backed loans to Brazilian Offshore operations which coincidentally one of his key backers has invested over $800 million in, when we that money here. Should I keep going on a 10-page rant?

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 18):
The thing about Cain is that he is actually very Libertarian on social issues.....which is why he would get my nod if Ron Paul doesn't pan out....

Ron Paul would be a disaster on the international front. His entire foreign policy can be summed up in two words: "F___ You". Which I admit to feeling to be appropriate in many cases, but not in every case. He wants to dismantle the Fed and go back to the gold standard. How about different currencies for every state, while we're at it?
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:58 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
Ron Paul would be a disaster on the international front. His entire foreign policy can be summed up in two words: "F___ You". Which I admit to feeling to be appropriate in many cases, but not in every case. He wants to dismantle the Fed and go back to the gold standard. How about different currencies for every state, while we're at it?

I agree about Ron Paul, but he was on the money, when he said that the money policies of this country were screwed up, long before Obama.
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:12 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
Ron Paul would be a disaster on the international front. His entire foreign policy can be summed up in two words: "F___ You". Which I admit to feeling to be appropriate in many cases, but not in every case. He wants to dismantle the Fed and go back to the gold standard. How about different currencies for every state, while we're at it?

Our military spending is out of control.....
I don't think the Fed under him would be dismantled....audited? Yes......
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:22 am

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 21):

Our military spending is out of control.....

Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree that we need to scale back our overseas presence. There is no reason why we should be paying for 30,000 troops in Korea, for instance - a token force of a couple of battalions would do to underline the fact that we are allies and that we will reinforce if necessary - but the real fighting force in Korea should be with the ROK - and unlike during the Cold War, China and the USSR won't be there to support North Korea if they want to start something.

But Ron Paul does not seem to be interested in any foreign involvement whatsoever, and we have learned through history that all that means is that we will be dragged in when the rest of the world has descended into flames.
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:47 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
He wants to dismantle the Fed and go back to the gold standard.

Would be the third time is US History. Dismantling Central Banks is as American as Apple Pie.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
How about different currencies for every state, while we're at it?

He just wants to legalize competing currencies. That's all. Of course, for government purposes you'd have to pick just one, probably the USD.
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:06 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
Quoting tugger (Reply 16):

And actually, this is the Republican party's entire problem right now (don't take this the wrong way).

It has become defacto the party of "Whoever is not Obama".

Why not? They guy is a disaster. He couldn't lead a kid to the crapper. His every domestic policy seems intent to dig us deeper into said crap. On the international stage he is seen more and more as a joke. He has surrounded himself with corruption - his administration is owned lock stock and barrel by special interests, particularly the likes of Goldman Sachs. He provides billions of US backed loans to Brazilian Offshore operations which coincidentally one of his key backers has invested over $800 million in, when we that money here. Should I keep going on a 10-page rant?

Would you have said the same thing about President Clinton?

More to the point, would you have said the same thing about any Democrat in the White House?
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:24 am

Quoting cws818 (Reply 24):

Would you have said the same thing about President Clinton?

Clinton was nowhere near the spendthrift that Obama is. Clinton was not a bad president - I would have preferred that Bush Elder had been reelected, but we could have done a lot worse than Clinton. Oh wait - we have!

We've come a long way from the days of Reagan and Tip O'Neill. Republicans and Democrats used to be pretty close together on the scale between statism and anarchy. On a scale of 0-100, The GOP was at maybe 45 and Dems at 55, and we met in the middle at 50. Now the GOP has backed off to maybe 35 or 40 (in response to the massive debt) and the Dems have gone to about 70. The gap has become too wide, and I think it is the Democrats that have moved more than the GOP. I remember when Pelosi was first elected to the House in the mid eighties, and she was considered a left-wing nutjob by other democrats at the time. Now she's the leader of her party, and Obama had about the most far-left voting record of any senator. That's the leadership of the Democratic Party right now.
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:45 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
Quoting cws818 (Reply 24):

Would you have said the same thing about President Clinton?

Clinton was nowhere near the spendthrift that Obama is. Clinton was not a bad president - I would have preferred that Bush Elder had been reelected, but we could have done a lot worse than Clinton.

Well, good Sir, I am happy to agree with you there (apart from preferring Bush to Clinton, although Bush 41 was a good President).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
Oh wait - we have!

Considering the manifest unpredictability of the alternative, however, I am not sure that I can agree with this.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
We've come a long way from the days of Reagan and Tip O'Neill. Republicans and Democrats used to be pretty close together on the scale between statism and anarchy.

Yes, sadly, we have. Both parties, in substantial measure, are to blame. The current atmosphere is unproductive and toxic. Each party shares blame for that and each party bears the responsibility for correcting it.

P.S. I want to thank you for your reasoned and well argued response to my question!
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:30 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Right now, it seems to be a process of elimination. Perry has a habit of stepping on his crank, and appears to be the first guy to get nasty with attack ads against his fellow GOPers'. That pisses me off. And if he had anything to do with getting that preacher to start attacking Romney's Mormonism, that would piss me off even more.

Attack ads are used for one reason and one reason alone, they work.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Santorum is far too obsessed with social conservatism (as is Bachmann). I want a moratorium on anyone discussing abortion or gay marriage until we get our budget balanced, OK? It just is not that important.

How about the GOP leaves it alone entirely, its not a traditional conservative position to begin with. Also if they are going to go there then the left has every right to say that Perry is a hypocrite when he executes convicted murderers on death row. You cannot be pro-life when it comes to abortion and support capital punishment you are ending a human life regardless.

Quoting tugger (Reply 16):
It has become defacto the party of "Whoever is not Obama". While I take issue with the widespread use of the term RINO for so many Republican's (to many I am a RINO) because (in my opinion) the party must have a myriad of ideas/beliefs/people under it's tent but keep focus on fiscal responsibility, a platform of "anyone but Obama", is useless and damaging to the party. And that is where we are right now.

  
It leads to the crazy candidates who will struggle to get independents and the non-white vote required to win in 2012.

Even with Romney his Mormon faith is going to be fair game regardless if its dirty politics or not. That is politics 101.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
Why not? They guy is a disaster. He couldn't lead a kid to the crapper. His every domestic policy seems intent to dig us deeper into said crap. On the international stage he is seen more and more as a joke. He has surrounded himself with corruption - his administration is owned lock stock and barrel by special interests, particularly the likes of Goldman Sachs. He provides billions of US backed loans to Brazilian Offshore operations which coincidentally one of his key backers has invested over $800 million in, when we that money here. Should I keep going on a 10-page rant?

That might get you the nomination but you have to convince independents that you are actually going to fix stuff to have a chance of beating Obama. The democrats did this is 2004 and it failed miserably because Kerry was a horrible candidate, had they nominated Dean I reckon that election would have been closer.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 22):
Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree that we need to scale back our overseas presence. There is no reason why we should be paying for 30,000 troops in Korea, for instance - a token force of a couple of battalions would do to underline the fact that we are allies and that we will reinforce if necessary - but the real fighting force in Korea should be with the ROK - and unlike during the Cold War, China and the USSR won't be there to support North Korea if they want to start something.

Add in 50,000 troops in Germany and another 50,000 in Japan first. Because of said nutcase in North Korea I would say a presence in South Korea would be more justified.

Also I don't understand the investment in planes like the F-22 which I think has never seen combat and they cost $100 million each. If the past 10 years has taught us anything our enemies don't practice high tech warfare.
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:03 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 27):

Attack ads are used for one reason and one reason alone, they work.

With me, it's another reason not to vote for someone.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 27):
You cannot be pro-life when it comes to abortion and support capital punishment you are ending a human life regardless.

You ignore the responsibility issue, where the inmate caused the crime which brought the death penalty. I find it far more illogical to be pro-choice but anti-death penalty. I'm very consistent - I am pro-choice and pro-death penalty.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 27):
Also I don't understand the investment in planes like the F-22 which I think has never seen combat and they cost $100 million each. If the past 10 years has taught us anything our enemies don't practice high tech warfare.

I agree, in fact we should scrap the pentagon's purchasing system, and allow manufacturers to take the risk and offer military aircraft the same way they offer civilian planes. And that might mean that the US Navy might buy a few French Rafales, if they are a better deal than what Lockheed and Boeing can come up with. We used to have a dozen different manufacturers40-50 years ago, now we only have two - I don't like that.

Quoting cws818 (Reply 26):

Considering the manifest unpredictability of the alternative, however, I am not sure that I can agree with this.

McCain was solidly moderate, so I highly doubt we be in as deep a creek as we are today. He would have gone ahead with TARP, and maybe a smaller stimulus package. 2009 might have been slightly more painful, but the recovery would have been in full force by now with employment far below current levels. That's my guess.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:50 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
McCain was solidly moderate, so I highly doubt we be in as deep a creek as we are today. He would have gone ahead with TARP, and maybe a smaller stimulus package.

Except McCain would have faced a Congress that wasn't supportive both from Democrats and the very far right Republicans, so he would have been caught in total gridlock (even worse than we have now). McCain couldn't even manage the people in his own campaign team, never mind the rest of the Republican party.

Romney will face a similar problem should he win. The Democrats will do everything they can to undermine him and the far right will too. Look at the mess Boehner (a moderate Republican) has had with House Republicans...undermining him at every step.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
I agree, in fact we should scrap the pentagon's purchasing system, and allow manufacturers to take the risk and offer military aircraft the same way they offer civilian planes.

I agree, the current acquisition system is totally broken. Unfortunately, it's not going anywhere because the likes of Lockheed, General Dynamics, Boeing, etc have our members of Congress and the military bought and paid for.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
2009 might have been slightly more painful, but the recovery would have been in full force by now with employment far below current levels.

Why? The primary cause of our economic weakness is lack of consumer demand. Consumers are tapped out and have nothing to spend. What would McCain's do nothing policy have done to give consumers a reason to buy?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:17 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 29):
Why? The primary cause of our economic weakness is lack of consumer demand. Consumers are tapped out and have nothing to spend.

They are also holding back. Companies are not investing a whole lot in long-term strategies right now because of the uncertainty over future regulations and taxes - I know for a fact that is the case in my company. Our current policy is that we won't invest in anything where the payback is more than 1 year. Normally we would accept 2-4 year paybacks. We are simply refusing to put our necks out because of the risk that our already high regulatory compliance costs are going to get higher.

Individuals are doing the same. I could afford to buy a new car to replace my old POS but I refuse to do it in this climate, where I might lose my job and have a have a hard time finding another in the current environment.

McCain would not have unleashed the bureaucracy the way Obama has. Obama does not have a clue (or doesn't care) about the damage his regulatory agencies are doing, trying to fix the world through paperwork where he could not get it passed through Congress.

[Edited 2011-10-13 07:23:20]
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Mir
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:39 pm

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 13):
-I'm intrigued about Herman Cain's 999 plan

If it's as cut-and-dry as he's trying to sell it as, it would be a horribly regressive disaster. If it contains various exemptions so as to not completely hose the poor, then I'll take a look at it.

-Mir
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WarRI1
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:41 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
They are also holding back. Companies are not investing a whole lot in long-term strategies right now because of the uncertainty over future regulations and taxes - I know for a fact that is the case in my company. Our current policy is that we won't invest in anything where the payback is more than 1 year. Normally we would accept 2-4 year paybacks. We are simply refusing to put our necks out because of the risk that our already high regulatory compliance costs are going to get higher.



No doubt they are holding back, many complex reasons, politics, the crippling of the manufacturing sector of the US, loss of jobs, still going on. The refusal to crack down on China's monetary policies. Free trade agrrements. I find it quite the opposite of you, all these problems were caused by industry, banks/financials themselves. Past history of regulation will tell us that, there was a need, a big need, from labor laws to enviromental laws, to anti-trust laws, anti-monopoly laws. Does anyone think we did not need them? Ask the people along the Gulf Coast.


Individuals are doing the same. I could afford to buy a new car to replace my old POS but I refuse to do it in this climate, where I might lose my job and have a have a hard time finding another in the current environment.

I sure can agree with you on that, I am in the same boat, retired, listening to the folks in Washington, who want to destroy what I worked for, paid for. The American dream is in tatters. I hope that more people feel the uncertainty of which we speak. Maybe they will finally realize, we have been good and screwed by politicians, corporation, banks, Wall Street, both parties.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:46 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 27):
Also I don't understand the investment in planes like the F-22 which I think has never seen combat and they cost $100 million each. If the past 10 years has taught us anything our enemies don't practice high tech warfare.

While I agree with you somewhat, military research is an extremely valuable national asset. People forget how much technology you see today came from the US military. A HUGE amount of civilian technology first comes into play from the US military. After all, who else would finance these huge projects except the US military?  

No, I think defense cuts should come from other areas. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I think if you ask just about any US service-member their opinion it would be close to mine: the military could be trimmed significantly just by doing common sense measures. Stop sending ROTC cadets to Airborne and Air Assault school. Actually, stop sending 90% of everyone to Airborne and Air Assault school. They are cool and all, but almost everyone that goes through that school will never use it a day in their careers. Stop blowing so much stuff up. You have no idea how many rockets/explosives/tax money has gone down the drain blowing up stuff that could have been disposed of much more practically.

I could keep going on and on, the military is just inefficient just like every other government organization, and if the higher ups did an aggressive campaign to cut back on spending and keep their subordinates accountable, you'd see a significant decrease. I'm not sure if it's like this anymore, probably is, but when my dad was in the Air Force many years ago, the last week of fiscal year, they'd fly in circles burning off all the extra fuel they had because if they had fuel left over, they wouldn't get that much next fiscal year. That needs to stop! Give incentives for going under the budget!
 
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:07 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):
While I agree with you somewhat, military research is an extremely valuable national asset. People forget how much technology you see today came from the US military. A HUGE amount of civilian technology first comes into play from the US military. After all, who else would finance these huge projects except the US military?

If you spend billions upon bilions if not trillions in military R&D, these results should surprise nobody. Do away with these funds and they will be used for development in other areas and likely yield even more benefit.

And don't forget, a lot of military tech is based on civilian world tech too.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:08 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
Companies are not investing a whole lot in long-term strategies right now because of the uncertainty over future regulations and taxes - I know for a fact that is the case in my company.

They're not investing though, because there is no demand. Why build new factories and expand production, if people aren't buying?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):
I could keep going on and on, the military is just inefficient just like every other government organization, and if the higher ups did an aggressive campaign to cut back on spending and keep their subordinates accountable, you'd see a significant decrease. I'm not sure if it's like this anymore, probably is, but when my dad was in the Air Force many years ago, the last week of fiscal year, they'd fly in circles burning off all the extra fuel they had because if they had fuel left over, they wouldn't get that much next fiscal year. That needs to stop! Give incentives for going under the budget!

Amen...there is a ton of waste that could easily be eliminated. However, the DoD (like most of the federal government) lacks a sense of financial accountability. Though in some cases the DoD is worse, because they are so used to always being showered with money compared to other agencies that have always lived on tighter budgets.
 
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:36 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):
While I agree with you somewhat, military research is an extremely valuable national asset. People forget how much technology you see today came from the US military. A HUGE amount of civilian technology first comes into play from the US military. After all, who else would finance these huge projects except the US military?

If you spend billions upon bilions if not trillions in military R&D, these results should surprise nobody. Do away with these funds and they will be used for development in other areas and likely yield even more benefit.

Oh I know, I'm for cuts in all areas, our government is a mess and everything needs to be cut, no sacred cows. While military research could be scaled back, I think there are plenty of better areas to cut. There is a lot of useless waste in the military, you'd be surprised.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 35):
However, the DoD (like most of the federal government) lacks a sense of financial accountability.

Yep. That's why we need the politicians in DC to light a fire under them (and all other government agencies.) It sucks to see them considering cutting all US military pensions when so much other garbage exists. Like I said, stop sending those know-it-all "super cool" ROTC cadets to Airborne and Air Assault school... that is a great place to start on the long road of cutting the defense budget.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:44 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 35):
They're not investing though, because there is no demand. Why build new factories and expand production, if people aren't buying?

There is plenty of demand in my industry. I work in the Telecom/ISP field. But with all the doubt in the air, the only investments we are willing to make are the sure-fire deals guaranteed to pay back within a year. As you might guess, there are not many of those. All the other projects that are a bit more risky, or might take a few years to make payback, are simply not funded, and of course that means less work for us, and fewer people to employ.

Microeconomics 101, guys. Investment involves various kinds of risk. Government regulation is part of what you call ""Macro Risk". If the government were completely stable, and there is zero chance of any change in law or regulation for the foreseeable future, Macro Risk is said to be zero. You still have other risks, such as Market Risk, to deal with - but as risk is cumulative it all blends together at the end.

In our current environment, Macro Risk is as high as it has ever been since the 30s.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
StarAC17
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:02 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
You ignore the responsibility issue, where the inmate caused the crime which brought the death penalty. I find it far more illogical to be pro-choice but anti-death penalty. I'm very consistent - I am pro-choice and pro-death penalty.

Don't confuse pro-choice with pro abortion (this doesn't mean you specifically) but that is how the social conservatives sell it which I think is wrong, no sane person supports abortion but what I think it should still remain the woman's choice. Also notice that this debate is mostly run by men and hardly any women discuss it.

I might be in the illogical person you describe but the reason I don't like the death penalty is that with incidents like the Troy Davis case and others where DNA has now been used to exonerate a lot of people on Death Row its just too risky that you might kill an innocent person which I don't think should be tolerated ever. I have no issue with the the loss of life thing.

Also I think that serving your life in prison much worth a punishment than getting the death penalty.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
I agree, in fact we should scrap the pentagon's purchasing system, and allow manufacturers to take the risk and offer military aircraft the same way they offer civilian planes. And that might mean that the US Navy might buy a few French Rafales, if they are a better deal than what Lockheed and Boeing can come up with. We used to have a dozen different manufacturers40-50 years ago, now we only have two - I don't like that.

Wasn't there a big issue led by Lou Dobbs when the US military was going to by A330 tankers (better deal and better aircraft) over 767 ones and had to buy the Boeing ones due to the nasty spin.

I'm hung here because you are accepting public money and should support local jobs which in the case of a military aircraft order are private ones. But when you take the best deal which might not be American you are saving tax-payer money off the bat but it could cost jobs leading to a loss of government revenue.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):
I could keep going on and on, the military is just inefficient just like every other government organization, and if the higher ups did an aggressive campaign to cut back on spending and keep their subordinates accountable, you'd see a significant decrease.

The difference is though is that the military gets a pass and will always get one until we get a politican with some big stones to cut defense and also stand up to the "You're Unpatriotic" backlash they will come with cutting defense.
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Dreadnought
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:35 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 38):
I'm hung here because you are accepting public money and should support local jobs which in the case of a military aircraft order are private ones. But when you take the best deal which might not be American you are saving tax-payer money off the bat but it could cost jobs leading to a loss of government revenue.

It's fair point, but not for the reason you state. The mission of the US military is to defend the country, and to acquire the tools to do that. It is NOT supposed to be a jobs bank. The US military should support US manufacturers purely to ensure that the skills and manufacturing capacity to produce something locally is maintained. If the US bought a bunch of Sukhoi T-50s, they may be excellent aircraft that do the job for a quarter of the price tag of an F-22, but what if our relations with Russia freeze up and we have difficulty getting spare parts?

I think the solution is to stop puting all our eggs in one basket. If Airbus made the best offer, buy 150 of them, and 50 Boeings. Enough that they have to keep working and to learn the lesson that they can't expect to win at whatever price just because they are the only US company.

I think we should have some Rafales, Eurofighters and Grippens in the US fighter inventory. Maybe even some MIGs and Sukhois. Let Boeing and Lockheed compete for the business.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:14 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 38):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):
I could keep going on and on, the military is just inefficient just like every other government organization, and if the higher ups did an aggressive campaign to cut back on spending and keep their subordinates accountable, you'd see a significant decrease.

The difference is though is that the military gets a pass and will always get one until we get a politican with some big stones to cut defense and also stand up to the "You're Unpatriotic" backlash they will come with cutting defense.

I know. I am not saying we shouldn't cut it. Come to think of it, they already are cutting the military back. The Georgia National Guard is getting slammed hard budget wise, and the Navy program I got into was super competitive because they recently cut back in anticipation. I think the biggest complaints on cutting defense is how they are doing it. Many think they are cutting the wrong things within defense. Also, many think the Dems want to only cut defense and other "Republican" programs (but it goes both ways, of course.) But my point, I'm pretty sure the majority (50%+) of Americans are for cutting defense, just the right parts of it and not defense alone. At least that's how I see it (from a moderate point of view)
 
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WarRI1
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:43 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 38):
I'm hung here because you are accepting public money and should support local jobs which in the case of a military aircraft order are private ones. But when you take the best deal which might not be American you are saving tax-payer money off the bat but it could cost jobs leading to a loss of government revenue.

You are correct. Loss of jobs here, loss of revenue here. We are in the toilet now with no jobs, we should not send defense jobs anywhere, but here.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
thegreatRDU
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:44 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 31):
If it's as cut-and-dry as he's trying to sell it as, it would be a horribly regressive disaster. If it contains various exemptions so as to not completely hose the poor, then I'll take a look at it.

I'm hearing too that there are loopholes around this thing too...

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 40):
I know. I am not saying we shouldn't cut it. Come to think of it, they already are cutting the military back. The Georgia National Guard is getting slammed hard budget wise, and the Navy program I got into was super competitive because they recently cut back in anticipation. I think the biggest complaints on cutting defense is how they are doing it. Many think they are cutting the wrong things within defense. Also, many think the Dems want to only cut defense and other "Republican" programs (but it goes both ways, of course.) But my point, I'm pretty sure the majority (50%+) of Americans are for cutting defense, just the right parts of it and not defense alone. At least that's how I see it (from a moderate point of view)

There's a difference between cutting military spending and defense spending...cut the pentagon's purchasing power, bid contracts using price as a factor, etc..we could go on and on....
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DeltaMD90
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RE: New Hampshire Republican Debate, Comments

Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:22 am

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 42):
There's a difference between cutting military spending and defense spending...cut the pentagon's purchasing power, bid contracts using price as a factor, etc..we could go on and on....

I think we're arguing the same thing, I'm just getting the terminology wrong  

[Edited 2011-10-14 21:23:00]

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