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747400sp
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What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:38 am

I was reading about the possible decommissioning of the GW, and some body stated, that China could build more ships than the United States, and I am not surprise, because I could see how. It seem like Asia has the market on container ships and Europe has the market on cruise ships. Yes, we build the best aircraft carriers and DDGs in the world, but if we could get a large container ship or cruise ship contract, that would mean more jobs for Americans. Yes, NASCCO in San Diego has had some pretty good Tanker contracts, but it would be nice to get some more civilian contracts here in the states, and keep or nice USN contracts. We built the fastest ocean liner the SS United States ever built, so what has happen US ship building companies?
 
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WarRI1
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:46 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
I was reading about the possible decommissioning of the GW, and some body stated, that China could build more ships than the United States, and I am not surprise, because I could see how. It seem like Asia has the market on container ships and Europe has the market on cruise ships. Yes, we build the best aircraft carriers and DDGs in the world, but if we could get a large container ship or cruise ship contract, that would mean more jobs for Americans. Yes, NASCCO in San Diego has had some pretty good Tanker contracts, but it would be nice to get some more civilian contracts here in the states, and keep or nice USN contracts. We built the fastest ocean liner the SS United States ever built, so what has happen US ship building companies?

Well to quote many, We are too expensive, we pay too much, we have unions, we are too regulated, etc, etc. etc. We also go for the cheap labor, like drunken sailors.
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CPH-R
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:36 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):
Well to quote many, We are too expensive, we pay too much, we have unions, we are too regulated, etc, etc. etc.

And you're not the only ones.

Our local shipyard finished their last 'new build' bulk carrier a few years ago, and only has a couple of warship contracts left, before they'll resign themselves to doing repair work. And that is the shipyard responsible for building the largest bulk carriers around, the Mærsk E class. All future Mærsk new builds will be built in Asia, as it's much cheaper out there.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:52 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 2):
Our local shipyard finished their last 'new build' bulk carrier a few years ago, and only has a couple of warship contracts left, before they'll resign themselves to doing repair work. And that is the shipyard responsible for building the largest bulk carriers around, the Mærsk E class. All future Mærsk new builds will be built in Asia, as it's much cheaper out there.

The God of cheap labor/costs, takes his toll once again. I have to wonder, are we all going back to farming? I wonder where we in the Western World will get the money to buy the goods that are shipped in the cheap Asian built ships? A growing dilemma for us.
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BMI727
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:04 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Same thing that happened to a lot of industries, namely costs got too high without corresponding increases in value.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
pilotsmoe
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:12 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 2):
And you're not the only ones.

Our local shipyard finished their last 'new build' bulk carrier a few years ago, and only has a couple of warship contracts left, before they'll resign themselves to doing repair work. And that is the shipyard responsible for building the largest bulk carriers around, the Mærsk E class. All future Mærsk new builds will be built in Asia, as it's much cheaper out there.

And that's why we need tariffs. We'll never be able to compete with $2 an hour labor.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:20 am

Quoting pilotsmoe (Reply 5):
And that's why we need tariffs. We'll never be able to compete with $2 an hour labor.

Absolutely. We have a modern expensive society here in the West. We have laws, enviromental etc, they do not. We will destroy ourselves, if this keeps up. We know who we have to thank for this, our governments, and the corporations who bleed us dry, while destroying our standard of living.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:18 am

Germany used to have a big shipbuilding industry up to the 1970s (e.g. see the famous "Cap San" class of freighters from the 1960s). Afterwards "standard" shipbuilding moved to cheaper Eadt Asia, first Japan, then Soth Korea and now China.
There still exists a handfull of shipyards (e.g. the Meyerwerft in Papenburg), but they build hightech niche ships for special purposes and the military.

Jan
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BMI727
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:48 am

Quoting pilotsmoe (Reply 5):
And that's why we need tariffs.

All this carrying on about the standard of living and you want to make things more expensive?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
Absolutely. We have a modern expensive society here in the West. We have laws, enviromental etc, they do not.

We do, but what you're proposing is dumb. You can't fix too much regulation with more regulation.

Despite how you try to portray it, there is a price to be paid for all of this regulation. If you write a law saying "workers must get paid x dollars per hour" what you actually write is "x jobs are now uneconomical and must move elsewhere or be cut entirely." Paying more money for the exact same product is just stupid.

Obviously, Americans are unwilling to be cheaper, so they must be better. The solution, of course, is to deregulate and create an environment friendly for business and conducive to innovation. The solution is to start doing tomorrow's work rather than complaining about others' ability to do yesterday's.

But then again, it seems that certain Americans are less worried about working themselves and more concerned with bitching about the work everyone else does.
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Arrow
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:04 am

Quoting pilotsmoe (Reply 5):
And that's why we need tariffs. We'll never be able to compete with $2 an hour labor.

What exactly are you going to put a tariff on? The foreign-built ships? Next time you're down at the docks, have a look and see how many US-registered ships you can find. Ever hear the term "flag of convenience?" The last time the US tried the protectionism route with marine shipping was the Jones Act -- which 100 years later is still on the books. It's the single biggest reason that Vancouver captured the bulk of the Alaska cruise business.

Protectionism usually backfires big time.
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ltbewr
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:10 pm

Certain ships for inland USA use (rivers, Great Lakes, Hawaii inter-island use, certain ferry ships, oil tankers from Alaska, offshore oil wells to USA ports and oil distribution within the USA) must be made and registered to USA ports. It used to be that USA made and registered ships with grain and related commodities where the USA government subsidized it, had to go on USA made and registered ships. As much as possible, all Military ships have to be made in the USA. George Steinbrenner, the late Yankees Baseball team owned had a company in Tampa that built ships for such USA customers. Major military supply companies still make ships in Maine, Mississippi, and elsewhere due to those rules. There are certain classes of ships, like for Great Lakes and like use that due to their unique specifications and financial reasons are best made in the USA or Canada.

Federal and State politicians still make such demands due to jobs and revenues they provide to their districts and states. Over time however, these laws have been watered down, mainly due to the reality that USA shipbuilding has become too expensive so USA shippers can use them and make a profit.
 
baroque
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:50 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 9):
Next time you're down at the docks, have a look and see how many US-registered ships you can find. Ever hear the term "flag of convenience?"

The Kiwis are especially happy just at present with some of the outfall from that particular aspect of globalization.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-15305816

NZ salvage crews race to pump oil from stricken vessel
Soldiers continue clean-up operations on the Bay of Plenty coastline on New Zealand's North Island on Thursday, after more oil from the stricken vessel Rena washed up Hundreds of people are helping with the clean-up, and thousands more have volunteered

Salvage teams are preparing to pump the remaining fuel out of a cracked cargo ship which is listing badly off the New Zealand coast.
...
The Greek-owned and Liberian-flagged cargo ship ran aground on 5 October on Astrolabe Reef, 22km (14 miles) from Tauranga Harbour on New Zealand's North Island.
....
The ship's Filipino captain and second officer have been charged over the incident.

Six sailors from the vessel, who are being questioned, are being held at a secret location for their own protection amid public anger over the affair, AFP news agency quoted the ship's agent Mike Hodgins as saying.


Still I suppose the ship was cheap to buy and operate. But as Arrow writes, where exactly do you put the charges to discourage this before it has happened rather than afterwards in court.

A Swire company just got fined a fair bit for "donating oil" to a fair bit of the S Qld coast when it met unexpectedly large waves off Brisbane. Waves. In the SEA. Whatever next.
 
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:09 pm

Quoting pilotsmoe (Reply 5):
And that's why we need tariffs. We'll never be able to compete with $2 an hour labor.

shipping is an international business. All that kind of - and the other protectionism that was already mentioned did, was killing US shipping lines and all the land jobs as well. It should be understood, also by the US unions, that every US ship that sails under a flag of convenience still produces job in the USA as well.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 10):
Certain ships for inland USA use (rivers, Great Lakes, Hawaii inter-island use, certain ferry ships, oil tankers from Alaska, offshore oil wells to USA ports and oil distribution within the USA) must be made and registered to USA ports

Yes, that is so. Now, a German team has set up a US based shipping line to start short sea shipping. Short sea is a very suvccessful business model in Europe, as it taes truck with container loads off the road. Rather than trucking from the Iberian peninsular to Norther Europe, put the cargo on a ship.

They have made a study taking inte consideration that the vessels must be build in the US, have all US based and union paid nautic and other personel on board, the whole US based cost structure and they can still make money by competing with truckers on I95 and rail roads as well. That should take some of the congestion off the interstates and the rails as well.

BTW the whole case is a good example that protectionism does not work., it just increases prices for US cosnumers. Same goes for embargoes.
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B747-4U3
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:32 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
Absolutely. We have a modern expensive society here in the West. We have laws, enviromental etc, they do not.

We do, but what you're proposing is dumb. You can't fix too much regulation with more regulation.

So are you proposing that pollution / environmental laws and health & safety regulations and suchlike are abolished leaving it up to the market to decide what degree of protection it wants to offer?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Despite how you try to portray it, there is a price to be paid for all of this regulation. If you write a law saying "workers must get paid x dollars per hour" what you actually write is "x jobs are now uneconomical and must move elsewhere or be cut entirely." Paying more money for the exact same product is just stupid.

It might not necessarily be so stupid. In many cases we will end up paying anyway. In the UK large amounts of manufacturing and mining jobs were lost in the 1980s. The economy could not generate sufficient new jobs, so in response to the now significantly higher unemployment we have to pay more welfare payments and more costs towards the tackling the increase in crime, mental health issues caused by long-term unemployment, health issues from drugs and alcohol abuse, retraining costs (in many cases irrelevant given the overall lack of jobs) and lower tax revenues because of fewer people working. It may therefore be the case that it is cheaper and more socially beneficial to pay more for a product (i.e. retail price + taxes to subsidise factories) to keep people in employment than the alternative (assuming of course that the economy cannot generate sufficient jobs to employ the newly redundant individuals).
 
BMI727
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:40 am

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 13):
So are you proposing that pollution / environmental laws and health & safety regulations and suchlike are abolished leaving it up to the market to decide what degree of protection it wants to offer?

Not necessarily, but liberals talk about regulation like it is a get-out-of-jail-free card for all of our problems.

You want to know why cars these days are so much more expensive than before? It's because things like airbags and stability control aren't cheap. Those catalytic converters don't build themselves you know.

All regulation has a cost, which is often too high to ignore. You get some ecotards who stop a new factory because it might threaten some tortoise in a creek, and that's X people who won't have jobs. Pollution controls driving the cost of a product up? That's X jobs moving overseas. I'd rather have a job.

If American workers aren't willing to work for the same wages as Filipinos, or Chinese, or people wherever else, that's fine. But they have to realize that those are all jobs they won't be getting. Raising the minimum wage might help a few people, but it will hurt many more whose jobs will be uneconomical.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 13):
It might not necessarily be so stupid.

Yes it is. If American workers provided a proportional increase in productivity to match the extra they are paid, those jobs wouldn't be leaving. But paying $20 an hour for a job that could be done by someone with a middle school education, just isn't going to fly. The solution is to stop complaining about losing yesterday's jobs and start working at the jobs of tomorrow.

And besides, all of those people now making more money won't have better lives. All their extra money will have to go right back out to buy products that just go that much more expensive. Protectionism just doesn't work, period.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 13):
In the UK large amounts of manufacturing and mining jobs were lost in the 1980s. The economy could not generate sufficient new jobs, so in response to the now significantly higher unemployment we have to pay more welfare payments

That's not an argument in favor of protectionism, that's an argument against welfare.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 13):
(assuming of course that the economy cannot generate sufficient jobs to employ the newly redundant individuals).

Part of the reason an economy couldn't generate sufficient jobs would be having too much regulation and a high cost environment. Regulation must be cut and the market must be allowed to work. It won't necessarily make everyone a winner, but with too much regulation everyone is guaranteed to be a loser.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
B747-4U3
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:07 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
Not necessarily, but liberals talk about regulation like it is a get-out-of-jail-free card for all of our problems.

I don't disagree with you there. More regulation is not the answer.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
You want to know why cars these days are so much more expensive than before? It's because things like airbags and stability control aren't cheap. Those catalytic converters don't build themselves you know.

Yes...and those more expensive cars save a great many lives every year and help to protect the environment. Whilst the increased purchase cost is a factor, one must also consider the cost/benefit to society as a whole (such as cleaner air and fewer pollution related illnesses)

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
You get some ecotards who stop a new factory because it might threaten some tortoise in a creek, and that's X people who won't have jobs. Pollution controls driving the cost of a product up? That's X jobs moving overseas. I'd rather have a job.

You're taking things to extremes. Whilst there have been cases where projects have been shelved due to a tortoise (or badger trail from my personal experience), it is far from the norm. As for pollution controls - these are something that should not be applied universally - they must be balanced with the economic needs of an area. For example, adding a factory where there are no others may not have a significant impact, whilst adding a cluster of polluting factories is likely to severely impact the quality of life, health and environment.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
If American workers aren't willing to work for the same wages as Filipinos, or Chinese, or people wherever else, that's fine. But they have to realize that those are all jobs they won't be getting.

How can Americans work for Chinese wages? They still need to eat, sleep and fund their health-insurance.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
Raising the minimum wage might help a few people, but it will hurt many more whose jobs will be uneconomical.

In the UK the minimum wage per hour is around £6 (or £12,000 per year if assuming a 35hr week). Several reports have claimed that in order to lead a decent life a minimum wage of around £7.50 is required (or around £14,500 per year).

I understand that your point is that lower wages will reduce the cost of living however given the UK context I believe this to be a fallacy. The primary costs in the UK are fuel, transport and housing - all of which continue to increase. Cutting the minimum wage will do little to alleviate the increases. Fuel costs are largely external, housing costs are high and increasing due to a severe shortage of property (with no policies aimed to alleviate this) and transport is consistently increasing to meet the investment required to maintain and upgrade the system. If minimum wage was cut to say £4 per hour (or £28 per day), in London it is quite feasible that 25% of ones daily pay could be spent on transport alone. It is simply not feasible that when all other costs are rising, minimum wage remains stagnant or declines because it is already set at a level where it is difficult to live.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
The solution is to stop complaining about losing yesterday's jobs and start working at the jobs of tomorrow.

The solution is creating the jobs of tomorrow. In my opinion, however, to minimise unemployment, there must be a transition period where jobs of yesterday are declined slowly whilst the jobs of tomorrow rise. The risk of not doing this is sparking mass unemployment from which it is difficult to recover.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 13):
In the UK large amounts of manufacturing and mining jobs were lost in the 1980s. The economy could not generate sufficient new jobs, so in response to the now significantly higher unemployment we have to pay more welfare payments

That's not an argument in favor of protectionism, that's an argument against welfare.

It was not an argument for protectionism, it was an argument to offer subsidies to maintain an industry until a suitable alternative can be found. In my opinion, it is much better to prop-up an industry than see thousands of people become unemployed in a time when there are few jobs around. Glasgow was the 208th most deprived city in the UK at the end of the 1970s. By the end of the 1980s (10 years later) it was the 10th most deprived due to the loss of industry. Can you seriously expect an economy (even one growing at a modest pace) to create that many new jobs in such a short space of time (including all of the necessary retraining). I was advocating a more staggered approach allowing the newly displaced people to be redeployed to new growth sectors thus keeping unemployment and associated evils low.

Furthermore, I don't see how it is an argument against welfare. Given that in the UK there are more unemployed people than jobs, what do you expect those unemployed people to do without welfare? Beg?
 
BMI727
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:28 am

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 15):
Yes...and those more expensive cars save a great many lives every year and help to protect the environment.

That's fine, but there's a cost for all of this. The cost for having high wages and a culture where even lower class workers have plasma screen TVs is having to watch jobs move offshore.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 15):
How can Americans work for Chinese wages?

They can't. Hence jobs moving to China.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 15):
In the UK the minimum wage per hour is around £6 (or £12,000 per year if assuming a 35hr week). Several reports have claimed that in order to lead a decent life a minimum wage of around £7.50 is required (or around £14,500 per year).

If you raise the minimum wage some people are going to make a little more. But many others are going to end up making nothing at all as they are now too expensive.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 15):
I understand that your point is that lower wages will reduce the cost of living however given the UK context I believe this to be a fallacy.

Not that lower wages will reduce the cost of living, but that increasing minimum wage or adding tariffs will increase it. More red tape isn't the answer to any of this.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 15):
it was an argument to offer subsidies to maintain an industry until a suitable alternative can be found.

If you're going to subsidize anything, which you shouldn't, subsidize something that might actually be worthwhile in the future rather than propping up dying industries. Might as well flush that money down the toilet.

Really though, the solution is to create a business friendly environment so that jobs of tomorrow create themselves. The government should be plowing the field but not watering the plants.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 15):
Can you seriously expect an economy (even one growing at a modest pace) to create that many new jobs in such a short space of time (including all of the necessary retraining).

Not really. There is a natural ebb and flow to the business cycle. Some areas boom and some bust. Some are better than others at maximizing the highs and minimizing the lows. Some industries and areas do a better job evolving to stay ahead of the curve, and others wither and die. That's just the way it is.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 15):
Given that in the UK there are more unemployed people than jobs, what do you expect those unemployed people to do without welfare?

There are private charities around. It isn't the government's place to be dishing out money. The object is to get the government out of people's pockets and out of private business. It is far from ideal for the government to have to bail out a company because it's cheaper. Companies must be allowed to fail and propping up dying industries only passes the buck but solves nothing.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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par13del
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:39 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):
Well to quote many, We are too expensive, we pay too much, we have unions, we are too regulated, etc, etc. etc. We also go for the cheap labor, like drunken sailors.

I have another take, follow the money. The US ship building industry made how much money last year, the powers that be say an oppertunity to make more money from fewer ships with virtually no competetion for contracts.
A look at the US Navy's shipbuilding budget is telling, I think it is only two companies building naval ships, and with each one costing a minimum of roughly one billion dollars, those companies are doing pretty well. Certainely one is being spun off but that is after the parent company got what it wanted years ago and is now looking at greener pastures.
Now if you decide to look at the number of ships the nation has produced compared to other countries it is small, but that is the problem of the government not the private company who is in business to make money. Private companies are not in business to promote nations or maintain industrial infrastructure, they are in business to make money, where makes no difference.
 
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Revelation
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:48 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
Part of the reason an economy couldn't generate sufficient jobs would be having too much regulation and a high cost environment. Regulation must be cut and the market must be allowed to work. It won't necessarily make everyone a winner, but with too much regulation everyone is guaranteed to be a loser.

We're in this current mess because too-lax regulation allowed the 'too big to fail' banks to be undermined by their commision-paid mortgage salesmen writing mortgages for anyone walking in the door and passing them up through the robo-signers so the big wheels could get big fat quarterly bonuses.

We keep hearing conservatives talk about too much regulation but they've got control of the House now and we haven't seen any plan come up about exactly which regulations they'll be cutting. I wonder why that is? Could it be that just saying 'too much regulation' over and over again wins political points, but actually putting concrete proposals on the table does not?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
There are private charities around. It isn't the government's place to be dishing out money.

Get in line at a local soup kitchen and after you take in the experience for a while and after you see what's being served, I doubt you'll be thinking that they could not be using some help.
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BMI727
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RE: What Happened Has To Ship Building In The US?

Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:39 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 17):
Private companies are not in business to promote nations or maintain industrial infrastructure, they are in business to make money, where makes no difference.

  

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
We're in this current mess because too-lax regulation allowed the 'too big to fail' banks to be undermined by their commision-paid mortgage salesmen writing mortgages for anyone walking in the door and passing them up through the robo-signers so the big wheels could get big fat quarterly bonuses.

And idiots kept buying them. The banks got themselves into the mess, but the solution isn't more rules. Simply make it clear to the banks, and all companies for that matter, that in the future they will suffer the full consequences of their actions.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
Get in line at a local soup kitchen and after you take in the experience for a while and after you see what's being served, I doubt you'll be thinking that they could not be using some help.

They shouldn't be getting help from the government. The government gives you education, that's your welfare.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?

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