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baroque
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:37 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 98):
n many countries, like Germany, this is guaranteed by the constitution. It includes the right to critizise, or "make fun" about religion as well. If a religious group thinks they are insulted they can take legal action, but the chance that they win is very, very remote.

You really should not write this if it is not true you know.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:48 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 100):

You really should not write this if it is not true you know.

Please explain. Are you saying there is censorship in Germany?
 
777way
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:54 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 94):
Was it acceptable to destroy a symbol of someone else religion?

No, that was totally wrong of them, they were misguided, illeterate, emotional fanatics, not what true Muslims are taught to be.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 99):

Secular west, I doubt Christianity approves of alot that happens there.
 
baroque
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:58 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 101):
censorship in Germany?

If you want to know, why not Google that very phrase?
 
na
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:11 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 92):
But I dont understand why freedom of speech needs to involve making fun of anything religious?

Freedom of Speech means that you can publicly say your opinion on anything, as long as you are not insulting someone. And showing Mohammed or a funny caricature of him is no insult. Maybe in your country it is, but that has no value for Europe whatsoever. Our opinion in this case is not valued in muslim countries, so why should we Westerners accept an undemocratic opinion from the Muslim world?

If you critisize the shortcomings of a religion, and the real existing Islam definitely has shortcomings, like any religion I say, than why not? Fair critisism is at the beginning of all changes for the better. If a system is not allowed to be criticized, its undemocratic. And thats the least we Europeans want.

Quoting 777way (Reply 102):
No, that was totally wrong of them, they were misguided, illeterate, emotional fanatics, not what true Muslims are taught to be.

The problem of the Islam nowadays is, that there are too many Muslims who are not "true" Muslims as you do define them. And these people are the loudest and omnipresent "muslims" in the world. Condemn them, publicly say that muslim terrorists and suicide bombers wont see virgins in heaven, but gay devils in hell! As long as that wont happen and their crimes are quietly accepted and as long as many muslims do act after the motto "better a bad Muslim than a good Christian" there are thousands of opportunities to critisize Islam!
 
PanHAM
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:12 pm

There is no censorship in Germany. If there is a conflict of interests with other $$$ of the constitution namely § 1 which basically says that the human dignitiy is unviolable the supreme court has to decide. There are about 700 decisions by the supreme court over the last 60ß years..

One for instance was that the statement "All soldiers are murderers" is supported by freedom of speech.

The fact that thje distribution of pornographic material to minors is no censorship. the state itself doe s not get involved, the media has a board which elects members and they classify films, books, magazines into age groups, that happens in most countries in a similar way.

What we don't have here, unlike certain parts of the US, are laws that allow harmloess publications like Playboy to be sold in brown covers only.
 
baroque
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:09 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 105):
There is no censorship in Germany.

Not exactly what Wiki thinks.   
 
ronglimeng
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:36 pm

Quoting na (Reply 104):
The problem of the Islam nowadays is, that there are too many Muslims who are not "true" Muslims as you do define them. And these people are the loudest and omnipresent "muslims" in the world. Condemn them, publicly say that muslim terrorists and suicide bombers wont see virgins in heaven, but gay devils in hell! As long as that wont happen and their crimes are quietly accepted and as long as many muslims do act after the motto "better a bad Muslim than a good Christian" there are thousands of opportunities to critisize Islam!

I read recently: “A fanatical Muslim will put you on the ground and try to kill you if he thinks you have insulted Islam; a moderate Muslim will stand over you and calmly and politely explain why this is happening to you.”

We’re always being told that “…this is not Islam”, but I’ve seen damn little evidence of moderate Muslims really taking useful action against extremist elements in their religion. I’m sure the media have searched for it – after all, we want to be reassured – but I just haven’t seen it.
 
StarAC17
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:15 pm

Quoting na (Reply 104):
Freedom of Speech means that you can publicly say your opinion on anything, as long as you are not insulting someone.

Insulting someone is definitely allowed when it comes to free speech. The only acceptable constraint and it varies country by country is that hate speech is illegal.
 
PanHAM
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:34 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 106):
Not exactly what Wiki thinks.

I don't care what Wiki thinks, censorship is when the state, the executive branch censors. That does not happen., Every citizen however has the right to call the supreme court if he thinks that he has been insulted, or unfairly treated , the supreme court is in charge of that.

The constitution stands above the executive, the legislative and the lower judiciary branches. Again, every citizen has the right to call the supreme court. Censorship does not happen.
 
baroque
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:44 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 109):
I don't care what Wiki thinks, censorship is when the state, the executive branch censors. That does not happen., Every citizen however has the right to call the supreme court if he thinks that he has been insulted, or unfairly treated , the supreme court is in charge of that.

Well there is at least one topic that your laws appear to prevent even being discussed. I would call that censorship. And if you don't like Wiki on the topic, you best get in there and edit it and see if your alterations are accepted.

You do know someone was jailed in Austria for breaking a law on speech that also exists in Germany???
 
PanHAM
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:54 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 110):
Well there is at least one topic that your laws appear to prevent even being discussed.

You mean holocaust denial? The relevant §§§ in the law are constitutional, in line with § 5 of the constitution and that is not issued by the executive but sanctioned by the supreme court. With the history and proven killings and mass murder of 6 million Jews we should not even allow catholic bishops to deny that this has happened.
 
baroque
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:19 am

By refusing opportunity to discuss you risk distorting views of history. It gets so circular that it can get difficult even to discuss arguably the worst Allied order of WWII, FDR's demand for unconditional surrender.
 
PanHAM
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:02 am

Well, the point is, it still is not censorship when the law is holding up to the consitution. If th supreme court had ruled that holocaust denial is in line with the constitution the government could do nothing about it.
 
na
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:52 pm

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 107):
We’re always being told that “…this is not Islam”, but I’ve seen damn little evidence of moderate Muslims really taking useful action against extremist elements in their religion. I’m sure the media have searched for it – after all, we want to be reassured – but I just haven’t seen it.

Well said, all I heard where lame excuses of singular muslim officials, and that only when directly questioned. And, do you notice, there is not a single muslim taking part in this discussion other than complaining, and no one addressing vital points or give an educated answer.
 
777way
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:11 pm

Quoting na (Reply 114):

Actually we are quite fed up of explaining and clarifying so most have given up, even in my case everytime I used to post a clarification others with dig up more dirt with their if's and but's, since I'm no expert I cant give educated pointers to put you at ease but can tell you from a layman's point of view this is not what we are, alot of what is in the Quran regarding wars and non-Muslims etc. was in response to certain times, maybe alot of it not valid anymore in most cases if not all.

We Muslims do too question alot of our religion, and are not comfortable with a number of things but only few voice it publicly.
 
Starbuk7
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:57 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 115):
We Muslims do too question alot of our religion, and are not comfortable with a number of things but only few voice it publicly.


And that is the problem. Not blaming you personally, but that is where the Protestants, Baptists, Mormons, etc came from. They did not agree with everything in the catholic faith and changed the interpretations and got away from the catholic form of Christianity.

If there are as many Muslims as you say that do not agree with parts of the Koran, you should get together and make changes as to how you practice your religion and let everyone know why and maybe more will move away from the radical side and interpretations.

Just a thought.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:30 pm

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 116):
If there are as many Muslims as you say that do not agree with parts of the Koran, you should get together and make changes as to how you practice your religion and let everyone know why and maybe more will move away from the radical side and interpretations.

It is a little harder to do this in many Muslim countries, no one can deny that. And I usually defend Muslims, but even I do question why more of them don't speak up in countries where they do not have to fear prosecution. Maybe they are speaking but no one is listening?
 
474218
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:51 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 117):
It is a little harder to do this in many Muslim countries, no one can deny that.

Why? Didn't at least four (4) Muslim countries just over throw their governments, governments that had armies?

It seems logical that if the majority of a religion wanted to over throw the leaders of that religion, it would be much easier!
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:57 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 118):
Why? Didn't at least four (4) Muslim countries just over throw their governments, governments that had armies?

Yeah, I'd argue it is harder to overthrow those governments than to elect new ones in our country. We don't have Apaches launching missiles at OWS

Quoting 474218 (Reply 118):
It seems logical that if the majority of a religion wanted to over throw the leaders of that religion, it would be much easier!

A lot of the times, the leaders of religion ARE the leaders of the country. Look at Iran
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:08 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 118):
Why? Didn't at least four (4) Muslim countries just over throw their governments, governments that had armies?

It seems logical that if the majority of a religion wanted to over throw the leaders of that religion, it would be much easier!

Those revolutions were not necessarily a godsend for religious liberty.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kurt-j...and-the-arab-spring_b_1080808.html
 
474218
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:53 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 120):
Those revolutions were not necessarily a godsend for religious liberty.

I wasn't using that in that context.

All I am saying is, if the vast majority of the Muslim faith are really against what the radical minority are doing, they would rise up and take their religion back!
 
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zippyjet
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:47 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
We are the Religion of Peace - and if you disagree we will kill you!"

Until people realize that no religion (or any other institution) should be declared off-limits to commentary, opinion, and sometimes ridicule (Which is the entire intent of Freedom of Speech), and that they can choose to answer it likewise through the freedom of speech or simply ignore it, but never by murder and mayhem, I say we should be running daily Mohammed cartoons until they get the point.

  

As long as you got the PC weenies, the corrupt UN and Saudi big money things ain't gonna change. If you even sneeze and the fanatics thing you are dissing them, you are prime fodder to incur their wrath!

Better yet let some of these fanatics and the Penn State kiddy gropers go at it in a boxing ring and televise it for all of us to see.
 
na
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:39 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 115):
We Muslims do too question alot of our religion, and are not comfortable with a number of things but only few voice it publicly.

That is a very sad thing, as it shows a picture to the world that says that the majority secretly accepts the bad things going on in the name of Allah. I have never seen a mullah/muslim condemning terrorists in a way that it could really frighten those people who claim to be true muslims but are just cruel murderers going to hell. There are thousands and thousands raging when a little newspaper in tiny Denmark or elsewhere shows Mohammed in a caricature or a nerd wants to burn the Koran thousands of miles away from any muslim country, but not at all something similar when a muslim suicide bomber (well, those folks are 99% muslim, arent they) kills other muslims in their own country, almost daily. That is so sick, man.
 
slider
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:51 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 99):
Islam, unlike Christianity, has not yet developed the notion of the freedom of conscience as a necessary condition for human freedom to operate. Hence, Islam as a political influence does not create states where freedom of conscience is respected or protected. Citizens and expats of these societies do not have the same notion therefore of freedom of speech, nor the distinction between the private and public spheres of life. Islam tends to produce a monolithic society where all conform to norms and disent is necessarily disloyal and a threat to the social order. There is not the same concept of 'heathy debate' when the ultimate goal and form of society is already defined and the only remaining project is implementation. Conversely, they have learnt to invoke local laws on religious liberty to gain more an more respect for their own religiously justified norms in the west. Islam is quite incompatible as a system with modern western values, hence the ongoing conflict.

This is a very good point and you're right on the money--Islam is about submission and adherence, not free will. This is EXACTLY why sharia is absolutely incompatible with a free society and why the injection of it into our Western society--whether it's in Dearborn or Minneapolis or wherever, is WRONG.

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 107):
I read recently: “A fanatical Muslim will put you on the ground and try to kill you if he thinks you have insulted Islam; a moderate Muslim will stand over you and calmly and politely explain why this is happening to you.”

That's an interesting notion and not far off from what we've seen...

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 116):
And that is the problem. Not blaming you personally, but that is where the Protestants, Baptists, Mormons, etc came from. They did not agree with everything in the catholic faith and changed the interpretations and got away from the catholic form of Christianity.

If there are as many Muslims as you say that do not agree with parts of the Koran, you should get together and make changes as to how you practice your religion and let everyone know why and maybe more will move away from the radical side and interpretations.

AHA! Now we get to the crux of the matter. This requires far further introspection and discussion; unfortunately, each time it's been brought up on this site, those threads and posts strangely get moderated and deleted. But the very fundamental underpinnings of Islam make reformation IMPOSSIBLE.

Because reformation, at least in the context of how it occurred within Christianity, is not doable is Islam. The words of their prophet are INFALLIBLE. Thus, if something were to detract from that, it makes the tenets of Islam null and void. And the house of cards collapses. We've discussed the concept of abrogation in the Quran here before and it bears repeating. No Muslim has touched that subject here, strange no?

If the words of Muhammed are amended, and since they are understaood to be DIRECTLY from Allah, then the entire foundation of Islam craters. Hence, no reformation is even something to conceive and that's one MORE reason, in a line of many, why the West still doesn't "get it"--because we continue to look at Islam through the lens of a Western religion where there is a separation among religious, political, social, etc. Islam makes no such distinction. Which means it is, literally, and all of nothing doctrine...and THAT'S why there is zero tolerance when the free speech of the West conflicts with Islamists.
 
474218
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:38 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 124):
AHA! Now we get to the crux of the matter. This requires far further introspection and discussion; unfortunately, each time it's been brought up on this site, those threads and posts strangely get moderated and deleted. But the very fundamental underpinnings of Islam make reformation IMPOSSIBLE.

Then why are there Shia and Sunni Muslims?

Quoting slider (Reply 124):
If the words of Muhammed are amended, and since they are understaood to be DIRECTLY from Allah, then the entire foundation of Islam craters. Hence, no reformation is even something to conceive and that's one MORE reason, in a line of many, why the West still doesn't "get it"--because we continue to look at Islam through the lens of a Western religion where there is a separation among religious, political, social, etc. Islam makes no such distinction. Which means it is, literally, and all of nothing doctrine...and THAT'S why there is zero tolerance when the free speech of the West conflicts with Islamists.

Sounds more like a cult than a religion?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:08 pm

Quoting na (Reply 123):
I have never seen a mullah/muslim condemning terrorists in a way that it could really frighten those people who claim to be true muslims but are just cruel murderers going to hell. There are thousands and thousands raging when a little newspaper in tiny Denmark or elsewhere shows Mohammed in a caricature or a nerd wants to burn the Koran thousands of miles away from any muslim country, but not at all something similar when a muslim suicide bomber (well, those folks are 99% muslim, arent they) kills other muslims in their own country, almost daily.

Wow... this is a very good point. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt but this is a very good argument. Interesting...
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:20 pm

Quoting na (Reply 123):
but not at all something similar when a muslim suicide bomber (well, those folks are 99% muslim, arent they) kills other muslims in their own country, almost daily. That is so sick, man.

Actually AFAIK, the Hinduist Tamil Liberation Tigers of Tamil Elam in Sri Lanka have carried out a lot of suicide bombings. Among others they killed the Indian prime minister Rajiv Ghandi. As for the numbers, it could be a close run, though most LTTE bombings have been carried out in India and Sri Lanka and have not been widely published. There is a reason why the LTTE is considered a terrorist organisation.

Jan
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:20 pm

I want to share a great experience i went through the last few days.
I was lucky to join millions of Muslims in the Hajj (pilgrimage). You can not believe that on the first day we all stood there in Araffa more than 4 million of us doing nothing but praying, people from the 4 corners of the world, people walked for miles some of them bare footed, it was very hot, some kind soles where spread all over offering meals, water, juices to anybody who needed them, no names were mentioned nobody was trying to score any points they were just there to help and for about 8 hours people stood there, praying, asking for forgiveness or whatever. The next 3/4 days all those millions of people moved to another area and on the last day we all moved to the Grand Mosque in Mecca. People were sleeping in the streets, in tents in there cars. Those people were not terrorists, i have not seen one fight, not even an argument, yes there was some pushing for positions but nobody got angry, in our camp we got few speakers now i admit we chose the moderated one's but i was happy that he message we heard was that of peace and understanding, i never heard anybody saying anything bad about other religions, in a matter of facts i heard nothing but praise about Jesus, Moses, Abraham, The Virgin Mary etc...
To cut this short and to go back to our subject, i am now convinced that Islam is not the problem but some fanatic idiots who where brain washed by some so called Islamist leaders, what is so surprising is that UBL who was a symbol of extreme Muslims never followed any advanced Islamic studies but he used parts of the Quran to get to his goals (Jihad), like some other people are doing the same thing to put Islam down.


Those millions of Muslims i did have the honor to share our love to God are who must represent Islam not some sick idiot with a dynamite belt or a machine gun.

BTW Please we follow the religion of Islam and not Muhammed like some here calls it.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:30 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 128):

Congrats on your journey, I am glad you had an enlightened time. While all of Islam is going through tough times right now, I still do believe most of you are very good people. Keep preaching peace and love--more a.netters need to hear it from a Muslim. And regarding my post previous post:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 126):
Quoting na (Reply 123):
I have never seen a mullah/muslim condemning terrorists in a way that it could really frighten those people who claim to be true muslims but are just cruel murderers going to hell. There are thousands and thousands raging when a little newspaper in tiny Denmark or elsewhere shows Mohammed in a caricature or a nerd wants to burn the Koran thousands of miles away from any muslim country, but not at all something similar when a muslim suicide bomber (well, those folks are 99% muslim, arent they) kills other muslims in their own country, almost daily.

Wow... this is a very good point. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt but this is a very good argument. Interesting...

It is just an observation on the actions of the group, and despite whether I'm right or wrong (or they are right or wrong) I still believe the people are good people, and a peaceful Islam can exist. There are just some things all Muslims need to do to clean house, IMO (coming from a Catholic who believes the same thing about his religion!)
 
baroque
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:20 am

@na. Find a Muslim and get to know them and find what they say when yet another suicide bombing occurs.

As Jan says, the LTTE did their level best to make your 99% a lie.

Also, did you ever wonder when the great upsurge in suicide bombing occurred? Might it have been when the west waged war on populations that were unable to fight back by conventional means?

In some ways, the protection afforded by the M1A1 tank is about as much at fault for suicide bombings as the religion of Islam is at fault. Think about it. How do you wage an asymmetric war? Not that I particularly want to, but just think if you were occupied would you sit back and relax?

And as mentioned before I am an atheist, but I do know many moderate Muslims and what they think of the present day world. And it is not at all what you seem to believe they think.
 
StarAC17
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:58 am

Quoting na (Reply 123):
There are thousands and thousands raging when a little newspaper in tiny Denmark or elsewhere shows Mohammed in a caricature or a nerd wants to burn the Koran thousands of miles away from any muslim country, but not at all something similar when a muslim suicide bomber (well, those folks are 99% muslim, arent they) kills other muslims in their own country, almost daily. That is so sick, man.

It took 50 lives!!

A Dutch film-maker was killed for his editorial on how some Muslim women were treated and an author was in hiding for years for being critical of the religion.

Yet when they are critical of Western values which I'm sorry are better we have to take it.

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 116):
Quoting 777way (Reply 115):
We Muslims do too question alot of our religion, and are not comfortable with a number of things but only few voice it publicly.


And that is the problem. Not blaming you personally, but that is where the Protestants, Baptists, Mormons, etc came from. They did not agree with everything in the catholic faith and changed the interpretations and got away from the catholic form of Christianity.

With regards to the Catholics at least they condemned the fact that priests were molesting children!!
Even they sometimes have to get a grip when satirised or criticised but at least no one gets killed.
 
na
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:22 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 128):
I want to share a great experience i went through the last few days.

I am sure that was an amazing experience no one ever forgets. An experience of being one like the Hadj exists nowhere else on this planet.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 128):
To cut this short and to go back to our subject, i am now convinced that Islam is not the problem but some fanatic idiots who where brain washed by some so called Islamist leaders,

While I believe the vast, vast majority of muslims wants peace like anybody else on earth I still think the problem lies within Islam, and I mean the practise of Islam, with its lack of critisism and lack of central leadership. Many muslims are victims and followers of extremistic preachers. Anybody with the word Allah on his lips is not really condemned, even if he´s the most ruthless murderer. Kick them out, outlaw them, feed the dead bodies of suicide bombers to the pigs (sorry to be a bit drastic here, I dont mean that literally). Unless the "front" of muslims keeps quiet its the wrong sign to the outside world.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:36 am

Quoting na (Reply 132):
and I mean the practise of Islam, with its lack of critisism and lack of central leadership. Many muslims are victims and followers of extremistic preachers. Anybody with the word Allah on his lips is not really condemned, even if he´s the most ruthless murderer. Kick them out, outlaw them, feed the dead bodies of suicide bombers to the pigs (sorry to be a bit drastic here, I dont mean that literally). Unless the "front" of muslims keeps quiet its the wrong sign to the outside world.

So it is the practises and not Islam as such is to be blamed and i can strongly agree with that. As far as facing those extremists preachers, it is as easy as you think, it is like a military action go in get rid of them get out, but it is a war of minds you have to gain them back and teach them the real meaning of this religion, and military actions is not the only answer, it's a long fight and i know that we are slowly but surely winning it, as those kinds of suicidal attacks are decreasing all around.
 
slider
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:57 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 133):
So it is the practises and not Islam as such is to be blamed and i can strongly agree with that.

But Islam itself DEMANDS the practice thereof as it is occurring around the world...that's the problem we've made clear ad nauseam.
 
777way
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:35 am

^ There you have it, the IF's and BUT's, despite the clarifications and explanations, but there is some truth to it, Islam does have demands which we the lay people can only rationalise through an experts interpretation, otherwise to you and me its some harsh stuff in there suggesting we do as instructed exactly, but extensive research and study of scriptures reveals another side according to experts, majority Muslims are not practising any radical agenda, its only a fringe misled minority that does.
 
wn700driver
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:45 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 135):
s, majority Muslims are not practising any radical agenda, its only a fringe misled minority that does

Fringe perhaps, but you cannot say they're misled. The Koran doesn't allow for compromise. That majority may well be good people, but according to the Koran, they are bad muslims. And what the consensus here and in the non-muslim world seems to be is that it is better to be a bad muslim than a bad person or neighbor. Same goes for christians before you bring it up...
 
777way
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:10 am

There is no such thing as a good Muslim being a bad neighbour or human being, love thy neighbour is also preached in Islam, if he is good in practise but bad in conduct with others, his prayers, preaching etc. are worthless.
 
slider
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:42 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 137):
There is no such thing as a good Muslim being a bad neighbour or human being, love thy neighbour is also preached in Islam, if he is good in practise but bad in conduct with others, his prayers, preaching etc. are worthless.

Really?

So why do we haev the problems we have today with Islam?

And why has there been a trail of blood associated with a warring Islamic nation since 632 AD?
 
777way
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:45 pm

You are right I have no explanation for that, only an expert can explain such things.
 
slider
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:52 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 139):
You are right I have no explanation for that, only an expert can explain such things

But you're a Muslim right? Can you explain it? Not to be overly aggressive or interrogative here, but your statement above is a copout, IMHO.

You put forth the whole 'religion of peace' thing conveniently, but then nothing to explain why it isn't followed?

I can't recall if you had jumped into any of the prior conversations I've had with SOBHI on this, but we've debated the tenets of Islam and I have made a repeated and factual non-inflammatory case why I believe Islam is not the peaceful outfit it claims to be. Yet no one--TO THIS DAY--have been able to stand by their assertions. And then posts and threads get deleted capriciously, but that's a different gripe.

I just find it not the least bit illogical as well as--candidly, disingenuous--to hide behind the statement above. I'd welcome a more detailed explanation if you would opt for it so we can discuss.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:19 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 139):
You are right I have no explanation for that, only an expert can explain such things.

I'm sorry, but that is flimsy. I could list hundreds of so-called "experts", Imams, sheiks, ayatollahs, etc who say with great authority that those who (insert crime here, from homosexuality to drawing cartoons to voting for non-muslims to accepting non-Sharia government to marrying outside your religion etc etc etc) must be killed, whipped stoned or whatever.

Clearly there is a lot of disagreement within Islam over what constitutes civilized and/or Islamic behavior. To be fair, other religions have experienced the same problem. You cannot trust these "experts". It is up to you, personally, to decide what you believe, and how far to take your beliefs. It is also up to you, personally, as well as those around you, to deny these "experts" legitimacy whenever they call for violence against those whose crime is simply believing something different.

We in the non-islamic world have freedom of choice in matters of religion. I can chose to be anything from dozens of flavors of Christian or other relions, or atheist. I can be Pastafarian if I want (look that one up  ). And I can be confident that nobody will bother me about it, whatever my choice is. Until the Islamic world accepts that different religious beliefs is no excuse for violence, and that religious leaders that call for such violence are not shunned and marginalized, we will continue to have the problems associated with Islam today - fanatical terrorism, resistance to education and civil rights, and all the tensions with the rest of the world those entail.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:29 pm

Oh come on guys, it is very hard to be the only one on your side in an argument. Obviously 777way (and SOBHI51) have proven to us that there are peaceful, rational Muslims out there, and I'm sure that there are millions of them out there. Christians were in a very similar position back in the days of corrupt Popes with children that would war--how is that a religion of peace? Everything they did was "based of the Bible." The Bible can be interpreted as a book of violence or a book of peace, and the followers closest to the followings of Jesus interpret it in a peaceful, loving way IMO. It is easy to misquote the Koran without being submerged in the love and teachings of moderate, peaceful Islam.
 
Stealthz
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:21 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 139):
You are right I have no explanation for that, only an expert can explain such things.

That response is more than flimsy, it is in many ways unacceptable.

It was pointed out to me the other day that we in the non-muslim world... Christian world if you like are a little unfair on Islam as the religion is much younger than Christianity and is still in some ways at a point where Christianity was in the dark ages.

I could debate that on a couple of points, it may be argued that Islam is not younger than Christianity, they are both interpretations of the same religion except Christianity moved on from blindly following the word of a single prophet.

700 years younger than Christianity would place Islam in the Dark Ages and prior to the Inquisition stage of development, fair call but they don't have to experience those bad times, there are examples to follow and move past that age of barbarity, will those examples be followed?? Doubt it.

Most of the Islamic world is peaceful and loving? Then stand up against that vocal, violent and unjust minority.. at least speak up!! Will that happen?? Doubt it
 
777way
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:45 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 143):
Quoting 777way (Reply 139):
You are right I have no explanation for that, only an expert can explain such things.

It simply means I have no knowledge on the subject and related questions, if I did we could have had an indepth discussion here, its not a cop out, most Muslims are not well versed in history of the religion other than some basic facts most of which is taught in secular schools.
 
Stealthz
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:42 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 144):
most Muslims are not well versed in history of the religion other than some basic facts most of which is taught in secular schools.

And I guess there in lies the crux of the problem!
 
PanHAM
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:13 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 144):
It simply means I have no knowledge on the subject and related questions,

Granted, but the world of internet is free and open for anyone to inform him/herself. It always pays to get a second or a third opinion on an issue. That was not possible in many countries and areas up until a few years ago.,

Which, again is not true. Just talking your country where I have a number of good personal friends, many of the "educated" part of the population that travelled reguarly overseas have been open minded in the 80s when i first met them and I am sure that this was so before as well.

Now, the internet is a real game changer and secularisation will take place in Islam as well, as it has done in other religions. Time will tell.
 
777way
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:52 am

That is true as well, Islam will go down the same path of dilution as Christianity, its clearly mentioned in the Prophet's sayings, things like mosques will be empty, religious obligations will become meaningless, people will live by what they think is right as in wrong will seem right and right will seem wrong as in the case of homosexuality, basically alot of the same stuff like in Christianity.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:55 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 144):
most Muslims are not well versed in history of the religion other than some basic facts most of which is taught in secular schools.

Well, secular schools do not teach that Christians are apes and Jews are pigs, and so forth. This is still taught in many countries as part of their official curriculum.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...y/2011/11/08/gIQAF4NC1M_story.html

http://www.faithfreedom.org/features...ools-teach-jews-are-apes-and-pigs/

http://blog.chron.com/partisangridlo...-early-20th-century-in-four-years/
 
777way
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:04 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 148):
Well, secular schools do not teach that Christians are apes and Jews are pigs, and so forth.

I was taught in secular schools religious classes that unbelieving nations were turned into pigs and apes, wether they were Christian and Jew I dont know, I wasnt interested in religion at all, and these secular schools included non-muslim institutes from Zorastrian and Roman Catholic communities, the latter school was infact under the Vatican.

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