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FRAIAD
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Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:15 am

According to Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood, a deal has been reached with Fairfax and Loudon counties, MWAA, WMATA and the state of Virginia about funding for the Dulles rail's second phase. See here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...l/2011/11/10/gIQA2mFIAN_story.html
 
TomFoolery
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:02 pm

So with the station located above ground, where will it be? It is my understanding that the above ground option would have the actual station 1/4 mile away from the entrance of the terminal, with only a fraction of that (not even 500 ft.) with moving sidewalks.

I understand that there is a significant savings over the underground option, but that would have the station located at the location of front handicap, VIP rows of the hourly parking area (similar to DCA but underground). As there is already underground tunnels there, I would suspect that existing infrastructure would be used. With this being the case, one must question the savings here. If so much effort is being made to bring the station to the airport, why stop 1/4 mile short?

My info may be out dated, as I will admit not following as closely as I once did. This being the case, please feel free to jump in and enlighten us.

Tom
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masseybrown
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:21 pm

I don't think a quarter of a mile walk is an unreasonable expectation for a subway rider. Protection from the weather should be sufficient. There will probably be some kind of vehicular accommodation for the handicapped.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:24 pm

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 1):
If so much effort is being made to bring the station to the airport, why stop 1/4 mile short?

Remember that Fairfax is suburban, Loudoun is largely exurban, and the State of Virginia is controlled by Republicans mostly elected by exurban and rural voters.

As usual in most parts of the US outside of the cores of major cities, planners see transit as a semi-necessary evil and a useless sop to liberals and city residents that they neither like nor understand, and are highly resistant to paying more than bargain-basement prices for it. All the people involved in planning this except for the WMATA representatives are representing people who will still drive to the airport.

[Edited 2011-11-15 09:26:23]
 
Flighty
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:27 pm

It's not as if the DC area lacks money... probably in the top 5 cities of Earth, by such measure.
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:30 pm

A 1/4 mile walk to the terminal from the proposed station is hardly unreasonable. I mean what at normal walking speed that's 5 minutes, hardly a huge effort is it??

Get real people, it's only 5 minutes walking time!!!!!
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
flyingcat
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:40 pm

The article is a little vague as I recall there was some back and forth about how far the above ground station should be from the terminal. This article does not state which option they have chosen.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:40 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 2):
I don't think a quarter of a mile walk is an unreasonable expectation for a subway rider. Protection from the weather should be sufficient. There will probably be some kind of vehicular accommodation for the handicapped.

I agree.

For instance, I've walked at least that far underground connecting from the Picadilly Line to the Jubilee line and from the District Line to the Docklands Light Railway inside the London Undergound.

Similarly, when you get off the Dulles AeroTrain at Concourse C, exactly how far is it that you walk?
 
TomFoolery
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:42 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 2):
I don't think a quarter of a mile walk is an unreasonable expectation for a subway rider. Protection from the weather should be sufficient. There will probably be some kind of vehicular accommodation for the handicapped.

Lets keep the prospective that this is an airport, not an office building. People often travel with luggage, and this is where the issue comes to light.

The point is not to call the relative fitness or lack thereof of the travelling public into question. I can see a family having a tough time with this (luggage, strollers, kids, etc.). I personally don't see the added value of a 1/4 mile walk between terminal and station after all the money that was pumped into this project. The point of this public investment is convenience.
Paper makes an airplane fly
 
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United787
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:08 pm

1/4 Mile doesn't seem that far...

I would imagine that the walk at ORD from the Blue Line to T1 and T3 is about the same and only a portion of that has moving walkways.

At MDW from the Orange Line to the Terminal may be a little shorter but less pleasant...
 
masseybrown
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:11 pm

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 8):
The point is not to call the relative fitness or lack thereof of the travelling public into question. I can see a family having a tough time with this (luggage, strollers, kids, etc.). I personally don't see the added value of a 1/4 mile walk between terminal and station after all the money that was pumped into this project. The point of this public investment is convenience.

You set your budget where the benefits line crosses the cost line. Politically described, this is an area, not a point, but maximum convenience at minimum cost is the goal of public spending.

I have traveled with baggage, strollers, kids, etc. Walking is the easy part; standing in line is hard.
 
TeamintheSky
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:32 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 7):
District Line to the Docklands Light Railway inside the London Undergound.

In Bank Station it's easily a half mile between the District and Central Line and that is up and down stairs. This will be a great addition for IAD.
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:27 pm

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 8):
I can see a family having a tough time with this (luggage, strollers, kids, etc.).

A family traveling with lots of luggage will rarely use the subway to start with.

Quoting United787 (Reply 9):

I would imagine that the walk at ORD from the Blue Line to T1 and T3 is about the same and only a portion of that has moving walkways.

Indeed. The walk is just as long, yet the ORD Blue Line stations sees tons of travellers. It is one of CTA's busiest stations outside of the loop. So please folks, let's stop with the 1/4 mile will kill the station.
 
wwtraveler99
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:05 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 7):
Similarly, when you get off the Dulles AeroTrain at Concourse C, exactly how far is it that you walk?

Not sure of the distance but the train at SEA-TAC is about a 5-7 min walk. Not bad at all, covered the whole way.


WW
 
wn700driver
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:58 am

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 8):


The point is not to call the relative fitness or lack thereof of the travelling public into question. I can see a family having a tough time with this (luggage, strollers, kids, etc.). I personally don't see the added value of a 1/4 mile walk between terminal and station after all the money that was pumped into this project. The point of this public investment is convenience

Correct. What people aren't getting is that a walk from a station to an airport is not a stroll through a park with no real time constraint to think of. Factoring in things like luggage, time deadlines that probably won't leave much slack for sauntering an extra quarter mile, and exposure to the elements, this is a pretty terrible idea.

Just because it's easy and fun for single 18-39 year olds with flexible work schedules, doesn't mean it's like that for everyone else. Some people aren't travelling alone, some people are old, some people are handicapped, etc. For any product service or piece of infrastructure to be useful, it has to be accessible, and conveniently so.

This, on the other hand, reminds me of the time Homer Simpson designed a car...

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 7):

Similarly, when you get off the Dulles AeroTrain at Concourse C, exactly how far is it that you walk?

A damned lot further now if you've just had to walk another 1300 feet through the weather. I think the idea here was to minimize these occurrences, which admittedly, IAD has never really done all that great a job of.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:26 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 14):
A damned lot further now if you've just had to walk another 1300 feet through the weather.

You won't have to walk through the weather from the train station at IAD.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 14):
For any product service or piece of infrastructure to be useful, it has to be accessible, and conveniently so.

Ideally, yes. But we don't live in an ideal world and lots of infrastructure isn't perfectly convenient. I went to LHR recently and trust me the hike from the Underground station to Terminal 1 was not convenient, but somehow people managed it.
 
Leezyjet
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:08 pm

I'd much rather a 5 min 1/4 mile walk to the station to catch a regular train service than the current option any day.

Visited IAD for the 1st time 2 weeks ago, and took the Washington Flyer which we had to wait 20 mins for, then sat on a coach for 30mins to East Falls Church, followed by another 25 min wait for a train into the city - it was not the best journey I've ever had.

Although it is a common problem at most US gateways I've visited, there is simply a lack of investment in convenient public transport infrastructure, with an over reliance of expensive taxi's and dedicated airport shuttle buses.
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
Mir
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:15 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 7):
For instance, I've walked at least that far underground connecting from the Picadilly Line to the Jubilee line and from the District Line to the Docklands Light Railway inside the London Undergound.

Do you do that while dragging lots of luggage?

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 7):
Similarly, when you get off the Dulles AeroTrain at Concourse C, exactly how far is it that you walk?

About .15 miles (same as in ORD to get to the subway from the terminals). The walk from the Dulles station to the terminal would be more than 50% longer.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 11):
In Bank Station it's easily a half mile between the District and Central Line and that is up and down stairs.

Considering that it's only about 1/4 mile between the stations, I suspect you're exaggerating somewhat. Which is easy to do when talking about walking distance - one often thinks that a distance walked is a lot more than it actually is.

Quoting LEEZYJET (Reply 16):
Although it is a common problem at most US gateways I've visited, there is simply a lack of investment in convenient public transport infrastructure,

And this is just another exhibit.

-Mir
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Cadet985
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:01 pm

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 5):
A 1/4 mile walk to the terminal from the proposed station is hardly unreasonable. I mean what at normal walking speed that's 5 minutes, hardly a huge effort is it??

For a person who is disabled or injured (like myself), a 5 minute walk can be hell at times, especially if travelling alone, and with a lot of luggage.

Marc
 
Asiaflyer
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:14 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 18):
For a person who is disabled or injured (like myself), a 5 minute walk can be hell at times, especially if travelling alone, and with a lot of luggage.

That's what the buggies they drive around in the airports are for and/or airport assistance.
 
elmothehobo
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:21 pm

With all the complaints about why this station doesn't make sense, I wonder how people ever got to Dulles. It'll be a quarter mile walk from the train station to the main concourse, with an escalator ride up/down from the platform, followed by a quarter mile long enclosed walkway that connects it with the terminal. It's nothing revolutionary, and it's far better than the alternative - namely Loundoun and Fairfax telling MWAA where to shove it ending the Silver Line at Wiehle Avenue.

First, the cost savings from building an above ground station vs an underground station are astounding - enought to build the entire proposed Columbia Pike Light Rail Line and then some.

Second, the design phase for the above ground station is not complete. Considering the distance from the station to the airport, they'll likely build a walkway similar to the one that exists between DCA and its Metro Station - only ten times as long.

Terminal A at DCA is roughly a quarter mile "hike" from the Metro at DCA with no good direct route. People still do it all the time, luggage and all.

There was an interesting proposal made by a Fairfax transportation planner (BeyondDC) who proposed abandoning Phase II of the Silver Line and instead building an express bus line running along the rest of the Dulles Toll Road from the Wiehle Avenue station to Dulles Aiport. It would save billions to be used on other projects in Virginia (such as extending the Blue/Yellow line to Fort Belvoir, which IMO is far more important).
 
Jaws707
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:43 pm

I can't belive we are having such a debate about this. Think about this for a second.

1. This option will be 100 times better than the current option for commuting out of Dulles.
2. The overground station will save about $400 million dollars vs the underground station. Thats $400 million that our gov't doesn't even have, so at least they are being financially responsible.
3. Most visitors to Dulles won't even notice, they'll just be thrilled that a rail station now exists there.
4. With all the complains about the walk, think about how much walking you actually already do in most airport terminals. I fly out of Detroit a lot and that terminal is huge, to get off the plane, get my bags and go out to the rental car stop is much, much further than .25 miles. I wish it was that short, LOL.
 
D L X
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:32 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
It's not as if the DC area lacks money... probably in the top 5 cities of Earth, by such measure.

That doesn't mean that Richmond will give Fairfax and Loudoun back the money it collects from them.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:00 pm

Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 21):
3. Most visitors to Dulles won't even notice, they'll just be thrilled that a rail station now exists there.

Says it all!
A330 man.
 
elmothehobo
Posts: 985
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RE: Dulles Rail Phase 2 Approved

Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:39 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
It's not as if the DC area lacks money... probably in the top 5 cities of Earth, by such measure.

Other than fixing some switches leading to the pocket track at Stadium/Armory (the opposite end of the future Silver Line), all of the construction is in Fairfax and Loundon Counties in Virginia. The real problem is that you have a marble cake of government involved in this: the Federal government, three state level governments (Virginia, the District and by virtue of their seat on WMATA, Maryland), you have Washington Metropolitan Area Transportation Authority, Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority, and then county governments (Loundoun and Fairfax). All that government makes for a whole lot of nonsense.

Personal opinion: Virginians have gotten into this idea that somehow they are doing DC a favor by building this line, and that all the money they are contributing is simply going to help DC out and that they stand to gain so much, when in reality, it's communities in Virignia that stand to gain tremendously from this line. Tysons Corner, which was already a popular place to do business, is seeing incredible growth in anticipation of the Silver Line. The whole Dulles Corridor cannot wait for this service to start (save a few NIMBYs and commuters who saw their tolls double to finance the line).

Another thing, Northern Virginia is an economic powerhouse, and is the biggest net contributor to Virginia's budget, but it's all these downstate politicians in Richmond that protest justa bout anything that NoVa tries to do, and they instead siphon NoVa tax dollars to build all the wonderful roads and provide all the services the state provides to them. We see the same thing in Maryland, where Montgomery County, another net contributor to the budget in Anapolis, gets screwed by rural politicians who oppose everything from the Purple Line to Bus Rapid Transit in Montgomery and then divert those same funds to build bridges and roads to nowhere.

Quoting D L X (Reply 22):
That doesn't mean that Richmond will give Fairfax and Loudoun back the money it collects from them.

  

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