Quoting mham001 (Reply 94): See Tesla

While they are bringing out some great machines, they still aren't ideal as electric only. The Model S for example that's due for release in 2012 will have a standard 160 mile range. The 230 and 300 mile optional upgrades aren't available as yet. Tests I've seen with most battery powered vehicles in the UK suggest they rarely get anywhere near manufacturer claims, a little like fossil fueled figures. Charging, according to Tesla is described as overnight for a full charge apart from at fast charging points that are 45 minutes. But these are very few and far between, I don't know of any where I live. In the city environment, I can see the advantage of these but if this is your only vehicle and you venture from urban to rural at a weekend for example, you may have a problem. How many of the general population can afford such a vehicle anyway? Prices are yet to be announced for the Model S, but based on the roadster, it'll be well over £100,000 (USD $150,000) in the UK, twice or even three times the cost of alternatives. Not many can afford that.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 94): This fusion will have different aerodynamics and is a littel heavier so things will not be quite the same.

It'll just have slightly lower suspension, a rear spoiler and low rolling resistance tyres like most other eco versions in model ranges, it's nothing new. It does make a difference although ensuring tyre pressures are correct is critical too.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 94): If the car is 15% more efficient, but fuel costs 14% more (currently)and the engine costs $3k more, where is your break even point? Average mileage is ~13k/yr.

The model I have offers 19% better MPG over the petrol (gas) powered version on the combined cycle. Diesel here is 8% more expnsive than petrol so it's a cheaper option over the lifetime of the vehicle if you're doing enough miles.

Darren

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 91): Even the theory of thermodynamics shows that Diesel engines are more efficient than Otto cycle engines, simply because of their higher operating pressures and temperatures. Basic laws of physics.

I'm glad you brought that up. The Atkinson cycle does compete with diesel in efficiency (VW TDI 42%). It is also used on most hybrids. The Rankine cycle gets up to 60% efficiency and is used to produce electricity around the world. So you have 2 as efficient or better engines with the ability to burn cleaner fuels becoming one under the hood. Diesel cannot compete with a plug-in hybrid today, nor with the electrics of tomorrow. and at the end of the day, you still have that pesky supply problem.

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 100): The model I have offers 19% better MPG over the petrol (gas) powered version on the combined cycle. Diesel here is 8% more expnsive than petrol so it's a cheaper option over the lifetime of the vehicle if you're doing enough miles.

Those are numbers that might work for you. Those numbers don't correlate here.The subject of this thread is diesel in the USA. I understand Europeans know that they know what is best for us and frankly, a diesel transition made sense 15 years ago. It didn't happen and it is quickly becoming irrelevant.

If you are paying attention to the Detroit Auto Show this week, the hybrid, plugin hybrid and electric announcements have been non-stop. Infiniti, Acura, Honda, GM, Ford, Toyota, et al. Even the Euros, BMW, VW. There has been thus far, one diesel announcement. Actually, two as of this morning (Audi will sell a diesel in the A8).

Quoting JJJ (Reply 98): I don't neet to watch the movies, I've been spending 6-8 weeks in the US every year for the last 6 or so. Truth is, most Americans do a long (for Euro standards, at least) freeway commute each way, every day

I understand 6-8 weeks a year can make one an expert, but truth is, they don't.


SOURCE: US Department of Transportation, Bureau of Transportation Statistics,

The average commute time is 24 minutes, so those miles are not being driven at high speeds (in general of course)

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 97): But it's not dying, diesels sales in Europe climb year on year whilst petrol sales drop.

The auto industry does not revolve around Europe. Try China. Many of the trends that will hit us in the near future will be impacted by the Chinese market and what their government will allow to be sold. So far, they like electrics.

Some of you seem to think I believe diesel is not more efficient than an Otto engine. I never said that. My point is, gas engines have closed the gap enough that diesel is not an economically wise decision for most people in the US. And for efficiency, diesel cannot beat most hybrids, all plug-in hybrids, nor pure electrics. That being the case, why should we all run out and buy diesels again???

Quoting mham001 (Reply 101): My point is, gas engines have closed the gap enough that diesel is not an economically wise decision for most people in the US

And our point is that that situation is caused by government regulations - that if diesel was sold at its proper price - which should be cheaper than gasoline because it is easier and less expensive to produce, and if the government would tax it the same way as gasoline, and if the government would back off on its NOx emissions standards a little bit, and if the government would allow the sale of a higher cetane diesel instead of capping it at the current crappy levels, then there is no reason why diesel shouldn't reduce consumers' fuel bills by 50%.

I precicely piecked my obsolete mechanical Diesel engine due to three reasons:
1) Being purely mechanical, with no computers or software involved, I can carry out most repairs myself.
2) It is not picky about the fuel quality and fuel consumption is still within limits (9-10 liters / 100 km)
3) It is the best engine ever made by Landrover. With regular oil changes and the timing belt being changed every 80,000 to 100.000 km, it will last forever.

Jan

Quoting mham001 (Reply 101): The average commute time is 24 minutes, so those miles are not being driven at high speeds (in general of course)

Who said anything about high speeds? Diesel excels at constant speeds you likely see in freeway driving. No need for them to be particularly high.

Btw: the way I look at your graph is that over half working Americans have a commute over 11 miles, and the average distance will be close to 20.

The figure for Spain is about 10. In kilometers.

It's been too funny reading these anti-Diesel rants... very informative, too.   

I do however have another question for our resident hybrid advocate: How many diesel fuel tanks have to be replaced for several thousand dollars after a couple of years in service? All of us know first hand that batteries age relatively quickly even if you treat them well, tanks on the other hand last for decades.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 94): Right. Because you drive 800km/day how often? But fact is, they are getting within range. See Tesla. I know however that for guys like you, it won't ever be enough.

Call it roughly once every 6 weeks. Then I do a 500 km trip around 4 times a year, and together with a friend I do road-trips around Europe every summer, usually around 5000 km in a fortnight with the longest single leg at around 900 km. There's also the 600 km trip to the Austrian alps to consider, packing 4 bodies and their bags.

As for the Tesla, that's really no comparison to a BMW 5-series Touring, now is it? And that's before getting to the point that the Tesla has not, and most likely never will, break even the 500 km barrier.

Oh, did I mention that being able to return average speeds (traffic permitting) of 150 kmh is also a requirement?

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 106): Oh, did I mention that being able to return average speeds (traffic permitting) of 150 kmh is also a requirement?

That doesn't apply in America, so it is utterly irrelevant...   

Quoting mham001 (Reply 3): In 2011 consumers bought more Chevy Volts than the entire Audi diesel lineup.

Apples to oranges. Completely different price points and cars being considered.

Quoting geezer (Reply 62): "modified" it to run on diesel........and sold the thing to their unsuspecting customers.

Really? Glad to read about that. Had no idea.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 71): , 22% highway, and 30% combined. That's using the same car, same power, same tranny. Diesel is significantly more efficient, and if diesel were priced where it should be (given that it needs less refining than gasoline), there is no reason that you shouldn't be able to save 50% on your gas bill.

You know, its so true regarding how the gov makes it more difficult to make diesel better. Why is that?

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 78): Meanwhile Toyota is to buy those "almost dead" diesels from BMW http://www.businessweek.com/news/201....html

Hmmm. A toyota diesel?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 80): Yup and when Ford release the diesel hybrid

What??? Where??? Sign me up! Did I miss that they do have a diesel hybrid in the works? Seriously?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 94): for a dying market

You know the whole 'dying' market comment is old. How could it be dying if diesel sales and types sold are more in the US?

Anyway, interesting thread.

Still driving my gas car until a diesel that fits my style comes along.

The problem, IMHO, of diesels in the US is too few choices. Audi, VW and MB are not high on my list of
cars to consider. Give me a diesel SUV (not jeep), A diesel SUV Honda Toyota, Chevy, GM, Ford, anything....
and I'm game. Just seems that there are too few diesel choices between a Cruze and then a Tiguan, and then a line up of Pick up trucks that are available as diesel.

Quoting mirrodie (Reply 108): What??? Where??? Sign me up! Did I miss that they do have a diesel hybrid in the works? Seriously?

They aren't linked to Ford anymore, but AFAIK Volvo have recently started marketing the first Diesel plug-in hybrid which is a V60 estate/station wagon. I don't know if they're already selling it, though.

By the way, Mazda has confirmed they are bringing over the 2.0-liter Skyactiv turbodiesel engine to the US market, primarily for the CX-5 small SUV (though we might see it on the Mazda6 sedan). I'd love to see Mazda offer the Skyactiv turbodiesel on the Mazda5, though.

Quoting aloges (Reply 105): I do however have another question for our resident hybrid advocate: How many diesel fuel tanks have to be replaced for several thousand dollars after a couple of years in service? All of us know first hand that batteries age relatively quickly even if you treat them well, tanks on the other hand last for decades.

There is another recent thread here that illustrates the myth behind that statement. Fact is, Toyota and Prius owners have enough history to refute that. I, like many others at the time. were very wrong about the battery problem and they have only gotten better since then. LiPO batteries are also now 60% cheaper and expected to drop another 50% soon, down to $300/kwh from a high of $1,400.

Quoting aloges (Reply 109): They aren't linked to Ford anymore, but AFAIK Volvo have recently started marketing the first Diesel plug-in hybrid which is a V60 estate/station wagon. I don't know if they're already selling it, though.

As of yesterday, they are showing us here a gas hybrid. The XC60 Plug-In Hybrid.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 104): Who said anything about high speeds? Diesel excels at constant speeds you likely see in freeway driving. No need for them to be particularly high.

High speed is relative. Freeways in the US are ostensibly high speed compared to surface streets. That of course is very often not the case as they are often stop-and-go also. The point is, your assumptions about US commuter traffic patterns have been less than stellar. We don't all drive 30 miles to work on the freeway.The numbers actually point to hybrids and especially, plug-ins..

Quoting JJJ (Reply 104): The figure for Spain is about 10. In kilometers.

I'm happy for you.

Some point to diesels for their driving characteristics. I can understand this. Torque is nice and why I love motorcycles. Torque will not be lost in electrics and depending, hybrids.

Some point to efficiency over gas engines. Sure they are but the gap closed. Diesel does not even come close to electric or a plug-in electric. The peak efficiency of a VW TDI is said to be 45% when running at a moderate constant rpm. So, exactly how often is that?
Now, look at your typical power plant. No matter the fossil fuel, it is getting 50-60% efficiency. 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. There is approx 10% loss in distribution. Throw solar into the mix......
The idea that some believe that millions of individual power plants with millions of operators with varying degrees of ability are more efficient or even cleaner (Klaus) than a power plant is utterly ridiculous.

It really does not matter though what any of us thinks. Volkswagen, the premier diesel pusher, stated just 2 days ago...."the Jetta Hybrid is our most efficient model"

Game over.

[Edited 2012-01-11 18:52:18]

Quoting mham001 (Reply 101): Diesel cannot compete with a plug-in hybrid today, nor with the electrics of tomorrow. and at the end of the day, you still have that pesky supply problem.

Only you think that.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 111): Game over.

But it's not, your getting more diesels being announced for the US market.

On my recent holiday to Cape Town in my 2006 BMW 320d (6 speed manual), the round trip, towing a 140kg trailer with a 190kg bike on it, two adults in the car, boot full of luggage and a big cooler on the back seat, was 2,850km.

Add to that probably another 500km tooling around Cape Town and the vicinity when we weren't out on the bike.

On the round trip I stuck religiously to the speed limit which is 120km/h on the open road, 60 or 80 passing around or through towns.

Average fuel consumption for the entire trip: 8.1 litres/100km. Not too bad.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 111): We don't all drive 30 miles to work on the freeway.The numbers actually point to hybrids and especially, plug-ins..

Could you please point where I said anything about 30 miles (or any number). IIRC I said "a lot", which an average of about 20 miles is.

Hybrids can only beat diesel on pure urban driving, and then there's a hefty price premium they have to overcome.

So, in short. Diesel beats gas, it's down to miles driven that the price premium can be recovered.

Hybrid beats gas provided a good chunk of our driving is urban, it's down to miles driven that the price premium can be recovered.

Diesel beats hybrid on pure highway (there's a test out there of a diesel 5-series beating a prius), hybrid beats diesel on urban. It depends on miles driven and the urban/road mix whether the premium for hybrid can ever be recovered.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 111): There is another recent thread here that illustrates the myth behind that statement. Fact is, Toyota and Prius owners have enough history to refute that.

source, please

Quoting mham001 (Reply 111): The peak efficiency of a VW TDI is said to be 45% when running at a moderate constant rpm. So, exactly how often is that? Now, look at your typical power plant. No matter the fossil fuel, it is getting 50-60% efficiency. 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. There is approx 10% loss in distribution.

You forgot losses in charging the batteries and losses in the electric motors.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 111): It really does not matter though what any of us thinks. Volkswagen, the premier diesel pusher, stated just 2 days ago...."the Jetta Hybrid is our most efficient model"

Source, please - Google didn't give me a result and I have a feeling that this statement applies to the US where the 1.6 TDI isn't available.

If only hydrogen-powered cars were more available... goodbye NO_x, goodbye soot and also goodbye range issues!

Quoting JJJ (Reply 114): Diesel beats hybrid on pure highway (there's a test out there of a diesel 5-series beating a prius), hybrid beats diesel on urban. It depends on miles driven and the urban/road mix whether the premium for hybrid can ever be recovered.

Even more importantly, diesel is here now. Not when the batteries get better. Not when the cost drops. Not when the infrastructure gets built. Not when the next government subsidized factory comes online. Now

The government has to change the taxes and change the standards. If they do that diesel can begin to flood into the market. Not just the odd car here or there. Trucks in all sizes, SUVs, luxury cars, econoboxes, and even a few sports cars. And not after years of development either, manufacturers basically just have to put them on the boat. If the US is serious about reducing their dependence on foreign oil soon, they'll change the rules to allow diesel a fair shot. As long as they continue to avoid that and instead fund overgrown golf carts that may only move where the emissions are emitted they obviously aren't that concerned.

Quoting aloges (Reply 115): If only hydrogen-powered cars were more available..

Don't hold your breath. Hydrogen will probably always be the fuel of the future.

Quoting aloges (Reply 115): goodbye range issues!

What? Hydrogen would be even worse than electric since you can't drive more than a half tank's distance from one of the very, very few hydrogen filling stations in existence. The amount of infrastructure that would have to be completely rebuilt for hydrogen is staggering.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 116): Trucks in all sizes, SUVs, luxury cars, econoboxes, and even a few sports cars.

Which reminds me. Some years ago, Audi and other manufacturers have been building diesel race cars, and they have been so successful that the race series is having to give the gas-powered cars advantages so that they can keep up. Today's diesel has nothing to do with the smokey GM diesels of 1980.



[Edited 2012-01-12 05:15:53]

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 117): Some years ago, Audi and other manufacturers have been building diesel race cars,

Oil burners have won at LeMans every year since 2006. Which is part of why I like diesels much more than I like electrics, nobody wants to make a performance electric car, except for that weird Croatian thing and I'm not so sure about that (they don't tell us how much it weighs). Maybe they can do what Tesla couldn't.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 116): The amount of infrastructure that would have to be completely rebuilt for hydrogen is staggering.

We did it once for coal, we did it again for electricity, we did it again for oil, why can't we do it again for hydrogen? I do of course agree that it won't happen over night, hence my support for Diesel and agreement with this:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 116): diesel is here now.

Quoting aloges (Reply 115): Quoting mham001 (Reply 111): The peak efficiency of a VW TDI is said to be 45% when running at a moderate constant rpm. So, exactly how often is that? Now, look at your typical power plant. No matter the fossil fuel, it is getting 50-60% efficiency. 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. There is approx 10% loss in distribution. You forgot losses in charging the batteries and losses in the electric motors.

Not only that, he conveniently forgot to mention that the power plant's efficiency, of course, isn't constant but it's depending on the load and that the 50-60% efficiency figure only applies to the newest, mixed cycle power plants.
The average figure would be closer to 40%, with older designs running around 35%.

Now, he's right in one thing - electric cars are coming. It's not a question of if, but when. However, I don't think it will happen anytime soon. Beside that, I personally think that mass deployment of electric cars won't be possible without new nuclear power stations, unified quick-swap batteries and utility companies running battery swap stations.

Mercedes have also just launched the E300 BlueTEC HYBRID at Detroit, the most fuel efficient large car on the planet, so for the diesel haters out there shove this in yer pipe.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/motorsh...d=2d69bd511ba0adb0084ab15716bb139d

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 121): Mercedes have also just launched the E300 BlueTEC HYBRID

That's what a hybrid should look like. A regular car, not some distorted egg like the Pious, sorry Prius.

Quoting Andz (Reply 122): That's what a hybrid should look like. A regular car, not some distorted egg like the Pious, sorry Prius.

There's a reason why Toyota designed the Prius that way: maximum fuel efficiency. The Prius' shape is designed to have as low aerodynamic drag as possible, and that's why the coefficient of drag is only 0.26. As such, at 90-110 km/h (56 to 68 mph) high speeds, the Prius still has very good fuel economy.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 114): Could you please point where I said anything about 30 miles (or any number). IIRC I said "a lot", which an average of about 20 miles is.

Ok.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 90): Diesel beats gas unless you drive few miles, and excels at precisely the kind of driving you see the most in the US: lots of miles of mostly freeway driving,

And even at 20 miles, you are nearly 100% off. You are so wrong in several ways. Here is the source, http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/congestion_report/chapter3.htm Beyond that, correcting your unsourced misstatements bores me.

Quoting aloges (Reply 115): source, please

Hybrid Cars And Long Term Performance (by mham001 Jan 3 2012 in Non Aviation)

Quoting aloges (Reply 115): You forgot losses in charging the batteries and losses in the electric motors.

I forgot lots of losses, I don't have a lot of time. I forgot the oil distribution losses, oil security losses, oil refinery losses. For example, a refinery uses somewhere around the same amount of electricity to refine a gallon of gas as it would take to drive an electric car the same amount of miles. I don't have the source on that and it is variable on the cars compared, but tell me where the efficiency is in oil again???

Quoting aloges (Reply 115): Source, please - Google didn't give me a result and I have a feeling that this statement applies to the US where the 1.6 TDI isn't available.

If you read this thread, that source is readily available. If you can't, 'vw jetta hybrid most efficient model'. Then work on your google skills.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 120): Not only that, he conveniently forgot to mention that the power plant's efficiency, of course, isn't constant but it's depending on the load and that the 50-60% efficiency figure only applies to the newest, mixed cycle power plants. The average figure would be closer to 40%, with older designs running around 35%.

The numbers you have are for coal.
It is important to define the efficiency terms higher heating value (HHV) and lower heating value (LHV).
HHV assumes H2O is in liquid state and contains the energy of vaporization. LHV assumes gas state for all combustion products. The efficiencies of coal-fired power systems are most often reported in HHV in the
U.S., much of the rest of the world uses LHV. The efficiencies of natural gas-fired power systems are
most often reported in LHV.

Using the ratio: 23875/21500 = 1.11 you can convert the HHV to an LHV. So the the range of 50-
54% translates to 56 – 60% LHV.

You are correct about the peak efficencies and points to how an electric car fleet can utilize our existing power plants during non-peak hours to maximize their efficiency. It is nothing but a win-win.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 125): I believe that title will go to Tesla. Easily.

The base Model S is 50k after federal rebate, that only gets you 160 miles, the 300 mile version is 80k after federal rebate. Both more expensive than the E300 BlueTEC. I also have a hard time believing the Model S will get anywhere near it's claimed range under normal driving conditions.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 125): A diesel hybrid is easier to justify when the car sells for $96k.

It's not 96k, it's approx £40,000 or $61,000, I bet this will arrive in the US some time in 2013 at a price around 55k, it will be cheaper in the US than in Europe.

Also interesting is the E300 BlueTEC gets much better mileage and has far better performance than the E400 Hybrid which is going on sale in the US this year.

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/532...hybrid-and-e-400-hybrid-at-detroit

Quoting mham001 (Reply 125): It is great that the Germans have jumped on the hybrid bandwagon. Imagine if their engineers had been busy all these years working on clean electric tech instead of that filthy dino juice.

BMW and Mercedes have been working on hydrogen for decades, hybrids are only a sop to the US market. I personally believe the future of the car is with hydrogen either powering the car directly or as a fuel cell.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 125): BMW and Mercedes have been working on hydrogen for decades, hybrids are only a sop to the US market. I personally believe the future of the car is with hydrogen either powering the car directly or as a fuel cell.

Exactly. And as long as there are Autobahns, and long may they live, Merc-BMW-Audi will never launch a car that cannot use those roads - the Germans would never go for it. Hence their interest in Hydrogen.

But when ze Germans did decide to come up with a hybrid, and those same Germans happens to reside in Bavaria, it was always going to be something spectacular that would make the efforts of nearly everybody else look pathtic.

http://www.bmw-i.com/en_ww/bmw-i8/

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27): And the Q7 actually has more towing capacity. (The Q7 has the same for the gas and diesel, so it's likely that the transmission is the slow boat)

That is the stupidest thing I have heard on this forum in the over 10 years I have been here. No one buys a Tahoe Hybrid for anything else than pretending they are saving the environment. In the world of towing there isnt even such a thing as a European SUV (although I have real problems with these Euro minivans being called SUVs) that breaks 8000lbs in any kind of category. Which is probably not a problem in Europe as the whole world of towing over there is in the dark ages compared to the USA as their idea of going on a camping tour is taking an E class and using a swan hitch or towing a boat that by Euro standards is already "large" at 17-18 feet.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 80): Stupid isn't it.

Why in gods name would we want that garbage? That pickup segment is as good as dead here, even the Ranger and Dakota are going away.

Reason #1 why Americans will not buy a diesel other than for utilitarian heavy duty application: Sounds like garbage and its a pretty uninteresting proposition when more fun can be had with gas for a lower price at the pump. Frankly I have 2 Jeep diesels (one with the MB 3.0CRD and the other with the misbegotten 2.8L VM diesel) and they are more of a pain than the few MPGs they save.

[Edited 2012-01-13 18:54:13]

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 126): But when ze Germans did decide to come up with a hybrid, and those same Germans happens to reside in Bavaria, it was always going to be something spectacular that would make the efforts of nearly everybody else look pathtic.

God bless them if they ever build something like that, but nobody is willing to at the moment. If something like that hit the market I might be interested, but the only thing close is the Porsche 918. The Tesla Roadster pretty well demonstrated the problems with electric cars.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 127): In the world of towing there isnt even such a thing as a European SUV (although I have real problems with these Euro minivans being called SUVs) that breaks 8000lbs in any kind of category.

No, but several European SUVs beat the towing capabilities of the hybrids GM offers while matching or beating their mileage. The 7000+ pounds of towing capacity is plenty for most people anyway. If you're going to tow a cruise ship you're best off with something bigger, and likely diesel powered.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 127): That pickup segment is as good as dead here, even the Ranger and Dakota are going away.

The Japanese don't seem to have too much trouble selling them. I think the demise of the Ranger, Dakota and struggles of the Canyon and its badge bastards is because they are inferior to other models.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 128): No, but several European SUVs beat the towing capabilities of the hybrids GM offers while matching or beating their mileage. The 7000+ pounds of towing capacity is plenty for most people anyway. If you're going to tow a cruise ship you're best off with something bigger, and likely diesel powered.

Who cares? a Class IV hitch on a craptastic Pilot beats a Class II installed on a Grand Cherokee. What in gods name are you comparing, an SUV made to show off questionable hybrid technology that is packed with heavy batteries to one that isnt and has a conventional drive? There is a reason why it can tow so little....just like there is a reason that a previous gen WK SRT can at max tow 3500lbs and anything higher than a 1.25 inch receiver is not even recommended.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 128): The Japanese don't seem to have too much trouble selling them. I think the demise of the Ranger, Dakota and struggles of the Canyon and its badge bastards is because they are inferior to other models.

Is that why 2012/2013 will probably be the last year of the Frontier and the Tacoma is selling at 60% of what it was selling just 4-5 years ago? Right. Even with a factored in decline in pickup sales in the USA the compact pickup market across all brands has shrunk at a much faster pace than full size units.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 129):

OMFG! He's back   

This thread may actually be worth reading now ...    

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 128): God bless them if they ever build something like that, but nobody is willing to at the moment.

They are building it, expect to see the production version in your local BMW dealer sometime in 2014. Here's some shots of a prototype.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 130): OMFG! He's back This thread may actually be worth reading now ...

I dont know what the hell has happened here since Ive been gone. Now we've got a bunch of noobs comparing the towing ability of a Tahoe to a Q7. This is what is wrong with this world, people actually comparing a crossover to a body on frame design and suspecting the first is better than the latter when push comes to shove in real life when the crap hits the fan. We wouldnt have GM wasting time on making such idiot crap like a Hybrid Tahoe/Escalade if it wasnt for the fact that people these days rather be "cool and green" than get their head out of their rear and realize that this is all garbage unless youve got a proper T-case, quality diffs/lockers/ELSDs etc.

These are the same idiots who buy a CR-V and think that BTCS based 4WD is worth a damn. Heres a hint, its crap and you might as well flush some Benjamins down a Kohler thinking your GLK, X3 or any other idiot quasi-SUV you bought can tackle anything but a Target parking lot with 3 inches of accumulation. Might as well buy a 3 series or an Accord because you will save on gas and at the same time not look like the moron to the rest of us who dont go to the dealer for a $100 oil change because "its a good deal"

This whole thing has turned into some kind of E! reality TV show where we have people arguing with each other over who has a 11 way power adjustable passenger seat and who has 360 view cameras. Good god no matter if BMW or Caddillac builds a 35 way power lumbar you're still going to be more comfortable on the front seat of an 91 Cutlass Supreme where you could drive over the Grand Canyon and ask "Did we just hit a pothole?"

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 126): Exactly. And as long as there are Autobahns, and long may they live, Merc-BMW-Audi will never launch a car that cannot use those roads

Who are you? A sith lord that you are talking in ultimatums that something has "never been done". How about we start with a car like an Audi A2. That POS had worse parameters for highway passing, acceleration and top speed than a Ford Econoline filled with a Baptist Church Choir. I've got more options on who to blow by on the left lane in a rental Ford Fusion on I-4 than I do with an A class leaving a rental lot out of FRA for the love of god.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 98): The list of prehistoric US-only engines is quite long, so I preferred to list two from European manufacturers to highlight that the problem is the market, not just the manufacturers

This is comedic as Europeans saying that a Corvette has stagecoach like suspension all the while they are driving around in 911s and M3s with MacPherson struts which by the same logic are a 1940s Ford suspension. Congrats. This is the same argument in 4WD talk, Lockers and solid axles are by their standard also ancient all the while these morons are driving around thinking that torque vectoring is some kind of miracle bestowed to them by the gods of Acura and they are technologically superior since theyve got a Rain/Snow/Sand terrain selector. Facepalm x 100.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 78): What are the chances this engine will actually see any significant sales compared to the usual gas-guzzling obsolete 2.5 L because Joe Sixpack will deem it as "not powerful enough" to drive it 65mph max on the interstate?

About the same chance that Europeans learn that towing a camping trailer with a Ford Mondeo 40mph down a freeway is equally as stupid as driving a Mustang 65mph down a country highway, and even more dangerous. My question is since you like to rip on Joe six pack, when will the Czechs along with many Europeans stop inconveniencing us Joe six packs with an idiot vignette that I cant find at any god damn entry point when even the common redneck from Ocala, FL has learned what the F a Toll-by-plate system is 20 years ago and doesnt have to fill out some stupid sticker by punching holes in it for validity like hes playing the mega millions. Good lord better pull over at the OMV station or the big bad Euro cops in their 3 series and Megane diesels (ROFLMAO) will strike fear in me by waving their lolipop wands for me to pull over because ive forgot to select the numbers 11 and 20 on this weeks hall pass. Two can play at this game.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 15): They sell 300-400hp diesel large sedans in Europe that get around 40 MPG. Once modified for our crappy US fuel, they probably get 30% less than that. That has to stop. Raise the cetane.

Are you measuring in imperial gallons? What 300-400hp large European sedan gets 40 US MPG? The 7 series diesel doesnt even get 35mpg, the A8 barely breaks that and only on paper. May I also suggest that you are buying a $120k car that cant overtake a Hyundai Sonata. If you are spending 120k I really doubt you are worried about doing 25 vs 35mpg, unless the other car in your garage is an Escalade Hybrid and you believe that WN will lower everyones ticket prices in ATL because Clark Howard said so, and he must be right because hes on TV.

Quote: Once modified for our crappy US fuel, they probably get 30% less than that. That has to stop. Raise the cetane.

Unless you are driving your 740d around Carlsbad, NM and fill up at the local PILOT shop you can easily find (or create for around $4 from Wal-Mart) cetane levels of 50+ in the USA. Let us not forget that the plateau for performance is approx. mid 50s. and putting in Euro 60 cetane premium diesel is about as good as putting in premium fuel in a 86' F-series. I do find the Europeans in Colorado worried that they will destroy their rental Tahoe by putting in 86 grade a bit hillarious though.

[Edited 2012-01-14 01:48:37]

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 130): OMFG! He's back

I thought much the same.    "Hmurricah, Fuck Yeah!"

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 132): This is what is wrong with this world, people actually comparing a crossover to a body on frame design

Oh, this is going to be good! 

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 132): Who are you? A sith lord that you are talking in ultimatums that something has "never been done". How about we start with a car like an Audi A2. That POS had worse parameters for highway passing, acceleration and top speed than a Ford Econoline filled with a Baptist Church Choir.

You do like the sound of your own voice, don't you? I shall not elaborate much on your reading comprehension skills, nor your apparent lack of knowledge when it comes to Germans and their driving patterns. Suffice to say the A2 (the all-aluminium, way ahead of it's time car) can indeed drive all the way from Flensburg to Munich without having to make a 12 hour pit stop at an electrical socket every 100 km. It may not be going much over 130 kmh, and it won't be hugging the outside lane for any extended period of time. But that wasn't the thrust of my argument, now was it? It was the lack of range offered by electric cars, and until such time fully leccy cars can do that, they have little future in Germany, and thus the Germans won't be building them.

As for your remarks about towing, you once again display a glaring lack of knowledge. An A-level drivers license in the EU, which is the bog standard license, only allows you to drive a car with a maximum of 9 seats, a maximum total weight of 3500 kg and a maximum towing weight of 750 kg. Driving anything heavier than that requires a truck license, towing anything heavier requires a towing license. Therefore, making a car aimed at the private market with abilities beyond 3500kg/750kg would be futile.

Signed
Sith Lord

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 126): Exactly. And as long as there are Autobahns, and long may they live, Merc-BMW-Audi will never launch a car that cannot use those roads - the Germans would never go for it. Hence their interest in Hydrogen.

Welllllllllllllll... Mercedes does build the Smart Car. Decidedly a non-Bahnburner...

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 132): Are you measuring in imperial gallons? What 300-400hp large European sedan gets 40 US MPG? The 7 series diesel doesnt even get 35mpg, the A8 barely breaks that and only on paper. May I also suggest that you are buying a $120k car that cant overtake a Hyundai Sonata. If you are spending 120k I really doubt you are worried about doing 25 vs 35mpg, unless the other car in your garage is an Escalade Hybrid and you believe that WN will lower everyones ticket prices in ATL because Clark Howard said so, and he must be right because hes on TV.

The BMW 740d gets 41 MPG (US) or 5.7 L/100, for example. But that is using European fuel. Top Gear took an A8 on an 800 mile journey on 20 gallons (Imperial) 10 years ago, and they have improved since then. They also raced a 335 diesel vs a 335 gas BMW and the diesel held hard on the heels of the gas car all the way around. Diesels are not the slow turkeys of 20-30 years ago.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 132): Unless you are driving your 740d around Carlsbad, NM and fill up at the local PILOT shop you can easily find (or create for around $4 from Wal-Mart) cetane levels of 50+ in the USA. Let us not forget that the plateau for performance is approx. mid 50s. and putting in Euro 60 cetane premium diesel is about as good as putting in premium fuel in a 86' F-series. I do find the Europeans in Colorado worried that they will destroy their rental Tahoe by putting in 86 grade a bit hillarious though.

I'm not saying you can pour European fuel into the diesels currently on sale here. Indeed the diesel engines that VW, Mercedes, BMW etc sell in the US have been heavily modified from their European counterparts, specifically to deal with the different fuel. But just as we converted to unleaded fuel while still selling leaded fuel for over a decade, we can do the same with diesel, and sell a second, higher grade.

By the way, European cetane is 50-52, not 60. And tell me, without aftermarket additives, where can you get 50 cetane fuel in the US?

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 135): Welllllllllllllll... Mercedes does build the Smart Car. Decidedly a non-Bahnburner...

You'd be surprised, I see them quite regularly on the 'Bahn. And in contrast to leccy cars they do have a useful range.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 136): You'd be surprised, I see them quite regularly on the 'Bahn. And in contrast to leccy cars they do have a useful range.

Oh, I've seen them too. But with that short wheelbase it's definitely not a good idea. A flick of the wheel and I bet you can get one to roll about 20 times.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 136): You'd be surprised, I see them quite regularly on the 'Bahn. And in contrast to leccy cars they do have a useful range.

Just out of curiosity, what do you consider to be vehicles that "cannot use" the autobahn?

Quoting polot (Reply 138): Just out of curiosity, what do you consider to be vehicles that "cannot use" the autobahn?

IIRC, all vehicles that cannot achieve speeds higher than 60 km/h are banned from the Autobahn.

Anyone that almost constantly makes you wonder, if there's enough electrons remaining to see you to the next Ausfahrt.

I wouldn't drive a Smart on the Autobahn, neither would I drive a very small Koreapan econobox, or a whole range of other cars for that matter, but that's because I prefer something a bit more comfortable, faster and spacious, not because the cars are unable to complete the journey in a reasonable amount of time, going at a reasonable clip. Leccy cars can't, not yet, even the most advanced of them.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 140): I wouldn't drive a Smart on the Autobahn

I wouldn't drive one overland either, but for a short hop on an urban stretch of Autobahn or a quick drive to work I would be OK.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 137): Oh, I've seen them too. But with that short wheelbase it's definitely not a good idea. A flick of the wheel and I bet you can get one to roll about 20 times.

They did have to rework the car after it failed the so-called elk test, which is essentially what you describe.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/despatches/41049.stm

After the debacle with the A-class, which originally also failed that test, Mercedes wouldn't be caught dead in any sort of association with a car that doesn't pass it. While a Smart car is of course less stable than a lower and wider car, it isn't unsafely instable... otherwise I doubt that it would even be allowed on the road.

Living in a country where 75% of cars are diesel engined, and even something like 90% for new cars, I don't get the love for it. Sure, it can make economic sense, especially since it's cheaper here even at the pump, but not always : I don't drive much (take bus and train to commute), and the maintenance of my petrol engine is simpler and cheaper than any comparable diesel. It's also gentler on the front tires.

Torque ? Yeah, sure, if you need a truck or to tow stuff, personally I don't care for torque at all, in fact I like revving my engine (and it's certainly not a F1 engine, it's a 1.4 8V 75HP). I enjoy the silence of my engine and the fact my car doesn't vibrate at the red light. I don't like the sound of diesels, or the fact that you need to shift a lot more than with a gas engine. And of course, the pollution in cities is really a pain, especially now that I commute to Paris.

Diesel should be reserved for heavy cars/SUV/trucks/minivans and if you drive a lot, where it makes sense, but it's not for everybody. Just like the current US situation where even enormous things are petrol engined doesn't make sense.

BTW, about buying oil to enemies of whatever, you'll always make diesel and gas (and kerosene, etc.) from every bbl, so having an equilibrium in consumption is only better, currently France imports diesel and exports gas (including to the US), it's stupid. I'm sure the US does the opposite, which is not better.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 135): The BMW 740d gets 41 MPG (US) or 5.7 L/100, for example. But that is using European fuel. Top Gear took an A8 on an 800 mile journey on 20 gallons (Imperial) 10 years ago, and they have improved since then. They also raced a 335 diesel vs a 335 gas BMW and the diesel held hard on the heels of the gas car all the way around. Diesels are not the slow turkeys of 20-30 years ago.

Indeed they are slow turkeys when faced with the choice to get conventional gas or gas+forced induction. And the 740d has an official combined rating of below 35mpg. It drops like a tank to 26mpg in city driving. How do you even come to this conclusion that a $120k sedan that accelerates to 60mph in the mid-6s isnt a slow turkey? If you want to talk realistic numbers then talk realistic numbers. My SUV is officially rated at 18mpg on the highway. I dont get 18mpg, I've never even seen 18mpg on my trip computer and Ive never purposefully driven 55mph in a windless 64F day on a track. Driving around in a 7d or any big sedan around you will not see 40mpg US unless your idea of drivng is hanging behind a Schneider semi at 60mph for drafting purposes everywhere that you go.

I am glad you are getting your cues from Top Gear when it comes to motoring, perhaps you agreed with Clarkson when they pitted a base V6 Mustang in a competition and then decried all of them crap. Its good entertainment but nothing else. In the real world they also raced a rental quality FWD Cobalt SS bought for $19.99 on the Nurburgring and it outgunned a 335, does that make a FWD Cobalt a better car than a twin turbo BMW? For the record, I never said diesels are slow...in fact I quite like diesels but the speed and dynamics are nowhere near what you get for the same price in gas unless you are driving a LeMans Audi around town.

Quoting polot (Reply 138): Just out of curiosity, what do you consider to be vehicles that "cannot use" the autobahn?

g-wiz



think



buddy



I often follow a buddy to work, it can't get over 50kph, it's a 14 km trip on open but windy road with no overtaking areas, so instead of being able to dive at 100kph I travel half as fast and take twice as long.

Cars like these shouldn't be allowed in zones above 50-60kph.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 142): I enjoy the silence of my engine and the fact my car doesn't vibrate at the red light.

None of the diesels I've owned vibrate at red lights.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 143): How do you even come to this conclusion that a $120k sedan that accelerates to 60mph in the mid-6s isnt a slow turkey?

mid 6's is still pretty fast for a big heavy luxury sedan; it wasn't all that long ago that supercars were doing mid 6's to 60mph. People who can afford 120k on a car often have many different cars, I bet most people in Germany/Europe who drive a 740d or the like probably have a 911 or similar in the garage as well.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 110): 2.0-liter Skyactiv turbodiesel engine to the US market, primarily for the CX-5 small SUV (though we might see it on the Mazda6 sedan). I'd love to see Mazda offer the Skyactiv turbodiesel on the Mazda5, though.

Yeah but Mazda?? Really?????

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 127): I have 2 Jeep diesels

Well its not that their diesels thats the problem. They're Jeeps, therein lies the rub....

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 145): mid 6's is still pretty fast for a big heavy luxury sedan; it wasn't all that long ago that supercars were doing mid 6's to 60mph. People who can afford 120k on a car often have many different cars, I bet most people in Germany/Europe who drive a 740d or the like probably have a 911 or similar in the garage as well.

Indeed, but it also wasnt that long ago that a Hyundai Sonata was in the 8s. Everything advanced...not just diesels and the gap is still wide.

Quoting mirrodie (Reply 146): Well its not that their diesels thats the problem. They're Jeeps, therein lies the rub....

What is wrong with Jeeps? Apart from shoddy quality in a few past models (and not counting the Compass/Patriot) I dont see issues. Many of the diesels especially in the export only built (non 2.8/3.0) were in fact the biggest issue.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 147): Indeed, but it also wasnt that long ago that a Hyundai Sonata was in the 8s. Everything advanced...not just diesels and the gap is still wide.

Jesus picky, how fast do you expect it too go? Pretty soon you'll be able to buy the 550d and 750d with the triple turbo 3.0, which in the 550d should be good for a sub 5 second 0-60.

But diesels have advanced, Audi and Peugeot have dominated LeMans in Diesel powered cars since 2006, Seat won the WTCC twice in a diesel Leon.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 147): What is wrong with Jeeps? Apart from shoddy quality in a few past models (and not counting the Compass/Patriot) I dont see issues.

Shoddy quality not bad enough? Jeep epitomise how poor build quality can be in the US auto industry; sometimes it looks as if no other tools than a hammer and a shovel has been used to bang them together. And that goes for all Jeep's, the dreadful Compass included. You may not see any issues with poor build quality and neither may other Americans, what having been brought up on a diet of automotive horrors, but quite a lot of people do see the problem. Particularly on this side of the salty divide - and that's the main reason US made cars don't sell in any meaningful numbers, if at all, over here.