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stasisLAX
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Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:11 am

On top of the recently announced diesel-motored Chevrolet Cruze from GM (and GM plans to offer a 5-door hatchback version of the Cruze in the USA, finally), Chrysler announced today that it plans to reintroduce a diesel powered Jeep Grand Cherokee SUV to the American automotive marketplace in 2013.

Big version: Width: 645 Height: 349 File size: 59kb
2013 Chevy Cruze 5-door hatchback (Euro model)



The Grand Cherokee has proven to be a huge success in the market (selling approximately 128,000 units in 2011) and Chrysler said it will also add a third shift at the plant that assembles the Cherokee in Detroit, hiring approximately 1100 employees to staff the new shift. Furthermore, there is a persistent press rumor that the Jeep Wrangler will be offered in the USA with the same diesel motor that Chrysler offers in European market Wranglers. In other rumors, the upcoming Dodge Dart (to be unveiled at this months Detroit Auto Show) has also been rumored (spies caught it in durability testing) with a Fiat-sourced diesel motor, to compete with both the diesel VW Jetta TDI and Cruze in the American market.

I believe that these US automakers diesel powered vehicles will be a success here in the US market - enough time has elapsed since the absolutely horrid and unreliable Oldsmobile diesel 350ci V-8 diesel motors disappeared from the market in the early 1980's. Your thoughts, fellow motorheads?

Source for diesel Jeep: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...AID=/20120105/OEM01/120109933/1251

Source for diesel Cruze: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2011-07-22-diesels_n.htm

[Edited 2012-01-06 19:15:48]
 
MD-90
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:38 am

Much better looking than a Jetta Sportwagen. Hopefully the drivetrain will be equally refined and maybe even offer a manual like the TDI Jetta's six speed.
 
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GSPFlyer
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:10 am

They have been talking about having more diesel vehicles for years, with only a couple of diesel vehicles actually becoming a reality (The older Grand Cherokee and Liberty for a few years, a few Volkswagens, BMW, Mercedes, Audis, etc.) in the US. I know it's mostly due to gov't regulations on diesel engines, but still, I will believe it when I see them on dealer lots
 
mham001
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:37 am

Diesel is dead. Too little, too late. At the end of the day, you are still dependent on people who hate you to supply you with a dirty, filthy, smelly fuel. Then diesel cars must overcome a $2-3k price premium as well as 17% (currently) higher fuel costs. And expect that to rise considerably if demand for diesel climbs. Meanwhile, gas engined cars are achieving nearly the same mileage with lower fuel costs and similar torque and hybrids beat diesel in mileage.

Fortunately, consumers are more interested in hybrids and even pure electrics than diesel.


http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...spassionate-look-at-the-ev-market/


In 2011 consumers bought more Chevy Volts than the entire Audi diesel lineup.
 
Superfly
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:54 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 3):
you are still dependent on people who hate you to supply you.

The Canadians don't hate us. They may be a bit jealous but they don't hate us.
Thanks to a certain someone in the White House, we couldn't add more oil supply from in North America with a pipeline from Canada. So yes it keeps us more reliant on oil from people that hate us.


I'd like to see more diesels available in every class of vehicle except for maybe sports cars.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:56 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 3):
Diesel is dead. Too little, too late. At the end of the day, you are still dependent on people who hate you to supply you with a dirty, filthy, smelly fuel. Then diesel cars must overcome a $2-3k price premium as well as 17% (currently) higher fuel costs.

Agreed with your statement about the Chevy Volt - at $40,000 USD (before government incentives) it is extremely overpriced for what is truly an electric Chevy Cruze. However, Volkswagen is selling every single TDI Jetta and Passat that it can produce for the US market. So there is currently a market in the USA for reasonably priced diesel passenger vehicles, so much so that Chrysler will soon have three (the Grand Cherokee, the Wrangler, and the Dart) diesel powered vehicles in its showrooms. One factor that you missed - diesel engines generally have a much longer service life - provided they get vital oil changes ontime and use low-sulfur diesel fuel.
 
Superfly
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:05 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 5):
and use low-sulfur diesel fuel.

Even the old diesels lasted a very long time.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:40 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 1):
Much better looking than a Jetta Sportwagen. Hopefully the drivetrain will be equally refined and maybe even offer a manual like the TDI Jetta's six speed.

That Gm can't hold a candle against a Sportwagen designed by VW in 2006.... even in the ergonomics and interior a VW is Light years ahead...


http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f64/redbarchetta54/sportwagons.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f64/redbarchetta54/golfsw.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f64/redbarchetta54/P1060204.jpg

And yes if you drive a lot a diesel makes a lot of sense if you drive a few miles each day a TDI is a waste of money.
 
MD-90
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:10 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 7):
That Gm can't hold a candle against a Sportwagen designed by VW in 2006.... even in the ergonomics and interior a VW is Light years ahead...

I agree. My mother drives a red 2010 TDI wagon with the six-speed manual and I've driven it several times. There isn't an equal-sized gas car in America that gets an honest 46-47 mpg on the interstate cruising at 75mph. My Mazda 3 is much more fun to drive (and has more comfortable seats, imo), but its gas mileage is pathetic when compared to the Jetta.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/Fleetwing1627/DSC_2182_f.jpg
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:35 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 3):
Meanwhile, gas engined cars are achieving nearly the same mileage
Quoting mham001 (Reply 3):
Diesel is dead.

That statement is probably as detached from reality as it gets, because last decade saw a huge advancement of diesels. My guess is that in the US pricing and taxing of diesel fuel together with ridiculous ans baseless popular prejudices ("diesels made by Oldsmobile half a century ago were unreliable", blah blah blah) is bigger obstacle to higher penetration of the market than any technical issue such as unavailability of low-sulphur diesel.
Gas mileage of majority gas engined cars is pathetic any way you cut it in particular if compared to diesels.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 5):
Volkswagen is selling every single TDI Jetta and Passat that it can produce for the US market.

Which is quite surprising considering how ugly and desperately boring the design of the last generation of these two models is.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 3):
t the end of the day, you are still dependent on people who hate you to supply you with a dirty, filthy, smelly fuel.

Me thinks it still makes a huge difference if your car takes 6 liters per 100km or 12/15/20. Unfortumately, no one can get out of the noose of reliance on oil suppliers like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Venezuela or Russia overnight, but that does not mean one should not try to reduce the revenue from oil into their pockets. Where's the responsibility conservatives like to talk so much about?

[Edited 2012-01-07 00:42:42]
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:01 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 3):
Meanwhile, gas engined cars are achieving nearly the same mileage with lower fuel costs and similar torque and hybrids beat diesel in mileage.

Complete BS petrol isn't even close to diesel levels of fuel consumption let alone coming close to diesel torque levels, hybrids aren't any better either.

Take a look at the examples below, diesel beats petrol easily.

MINI Countryman 1.6 Cooper 122hp, 160nm, 6 liters per 100km

MINI Countryman 1.6 Cooper D 112hp, 270nm, 4.4 litres per 100km

BMW 520i 184hp, 270nm, 7 litres per 100km

BMW 520D 184hp, 380nm, 5.2 litres per 100km

[Edited 2012-01-07 01:04:45]
 
ltbewr
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:08 pm

One reason to put more diesels into more vehicles in the USA is to meet Government's CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) standards. Diesels, especially in SUV's and in light trucks, could help a lot with vehicle maker's ability to continue to sell such highly profitable vehicles yet continue to meet those standards. Hybrid cars and light trucks are best suited for urban/inner suburban driving where a lot of stop and go traffic but they are not good on the highway. Diesels as to cars and light trucks are excellent for those who do a lot of highway driving, something more common in the USA.The price disadvantage as to diesel can be improved with more efficient and greater volume of manufacturing, improvements in engineering and offset by less money paid in CAFE penalties. Without the subsidies as to electric and hybrids, diesels can be very priced very competitively.

The one big weak point as to diesels in cars and smaller trucks in the USA is their performance from a cold start up in very cold winter weather in some areas.
 
srbmod
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:42 pm

Unfortunately, there is a perception issue to overcome here in regards to Diesels. You say Diesel and many folks will visualize a Mercedes or Volvo from the 1970s or 80s with a dirty rear end or a giant semi truck because that's the way Diesels are still perceived despite all of the advancements and improvements to Diesel engines. In other parts of the world, the Diesel is rather popular (Which is why there have been Diesel versions of Jeep and Chrysler vehicles while similar Diesel models were short-lived in the US, some of it due to stricter emissions standards in some states that prevented some models from being sold due to the engines not meeting standards.).
 
BMI727
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:06 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
On top of the recently announced diesel-motored Chevrolet Cruze from GM (and GM plans to offer a 5-door hatchback version of the Cruze in the USA, finally)

Wow. Kinda leading the Volt behind the barn with that one.

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Your thoughts, fellow motorheads?

Great move. Maybe they should take some of those electric car subsidies and use it to lobby the government to stop bending diesel over a barrel.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 3):
Diesel is dead. Too little, too late. At the end of the day, you are still dependent on people who hate you to supply you with a dirty, filthy, smelly fuel.

So are hybrids.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 3):
Then diesel cars must overcome a $2-3k price

Beats a $40k electric car.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 3):
premium as well as 17% (currently) higher fuel costs.

Part of that is the government taxing diesel more heavily.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
The Canadians don't hate us.

It's the Alaskans.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
I'd like to see more diesels available in every class of vehicle except for maybe sports cars.

Why not sports cars? Every LeMans winner since 2006 has been diesel powered. The biggest challenge would be finding a transmission that won't grenade itself.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 3):
In 2011 consumers bought more Chevy Volts than the entire Audi diesel lineup.

By the way, the Audi Q7 TDI gets 4 mpg better than a Tahoe Hybrid. And it starts at almost exactly the same price.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 10):
BMW 520D 184hp, 380nm, 5.2 litres per 100km

I've seen rumors of an M520d. Now that would be a serious car.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
One reason to put more diesels into more vehicles in the USA is to meet Government's CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) standards.

Dumbest laws ever by the way, and possibly reduced economy rather than enhanced it.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
Without the subsidies as to electric and hybrids, diesels can be very priced very competitively.

The Jetta TDI already starts about $1000 less than a Prius. And about $10,000 less than a Volt.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:07 pm

I think the "old" perception of diesel engines are rapidly fading as Volkswagen's current 2.0 TDI engine with common-rail direct fuel injection (the US version is rated at 140 bhp) has shown extremely clean emissions and impressive fuel economy--and the TDI engine rarely sound like the clatter diesel engines of old.

I do believe that VW is seriously considering certifying the 170 bhp version of this engine for the US market, and it may appear on the US-market Passat sedan, the GTD version of the Volkswagen Golf, and may become the diesel engine choice for the Tiguan small SUV.

It should be noted that we could see a LOT more turbodiesels from European manufacturers over the next few years. The reason is simple: the upcoming Euro6 emissions certification (mandatory starting in 2014), which is very close to the EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions standard. As such, a Euro6-compliant diesel engine only needs very minor modifications to meet T2B5, and that could mean cars like the BMW 320d could reach the US market very soon.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 3):
Diesel is dead. Too little, too late. At the end of the day, you are still dependent on people who hate you to supply you with a dirty, filthy, smelly fuel. Then diesel cars must overcome a $2-3k price premium as well as 17% (currently) higher fuel costs. And expect that to rise considerably if demand for diesel climbs. Meanwhile, gas engined cars are achieving nearly the same mileage with lower fuel costs and similar torque and hybrids beat diesel in mileage.

It's not dead - it's been intentionally kept down.

First of all, a rational energy policy would raise the cetane level for US diesel fuel from around 42 to around 52 - which is the cetane level of European diesel fuel. That is much friendlier to smaller, passenger car engines, gives them better performance and better mileage, and the additional refining is still far less than required for gasoline. The current cetane levels are tailored for big truck diesels. They sell 300-400hp diesel large sedans in Europe that get around 40 MPG. Once modified for our crappy US fuel, they probably get 30% less than that. That has to stop. Raise the cetane.

Put it this way - how happy would you be to put soviet-style, 78-octane gasoline in your new BMW? Same problem.

Secondly, we would do the same thing as the French - decrease the taxes on diesel and increase them on gasoline gradually so that diesel costs 20-25% less than gasoline. Combined with the much better mileage from the improved fuel, people will be happy to pay a little more for a diesel engine.
 
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par13del
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:56 pm

So the reality for motorist who buy these diesel vehicles is that the extra mileage achieved will have to be used finding gas stations that have diesel, anyone gettin one better verify which stations in their residential areas does carry diesel. On the freeways and interstates it's easily available.
 
BMI727
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 16):

So the reality for motorist who buy these diesel vehicles is that the extra mileage achieved will have to be used finding gas stations that have diesel, anyone gettin one better verify which stations in their residential areas does carry diesel.

It's not that difficult. Based on what I've seen, at least 50% or so of suburban gas stations offer diesel and virtually all in rural areas. In cities it might get a bit more difficult, but I bet they'll come around.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
I've seen rumors of an M520d. Now that would be a serious car.

You can already get a 520D with Msport package, what I think you are referring to is the M550xd which will have a tri turbo 3.0 diesel straight 6 with 380hp and 595 ft lb torque.
 
MD-90
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:42 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 16):
So the reality for motorist who buy these diesel vehicles is that the extra mileage achieved will have to be used finding gas stations that have diesel, anyone gettin one better verify which stations in their residential areas does carry diesel.

Not in north Alabama, diesel is everywhere and readily available. Sometimes you may have to wait if there's only one or two diesel pumps and they're occupied.
 
mham001
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):
because last decade saw a huge advancement of diesels.

And we have seen even more advancements in gas engines while hybrids are now mainstream. There are currently 5 different hybrids sold here that resoundingly beat VW TDI's. Outside of range issues, diesel cannot compete with electricity in any way.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
The Canadians don't hate us. They may be a bit jealous but they don't hate us.

Mostly all true, (I have run across some truly hateful Canucks), but our support of their oil market is still supporting the prices for everybody from whom we don't buy. If we don't pay them world market prices, they'll just sell to somebody else. So like it or not, buy that oil - support people who hate us. Don't forget our direct reliance on Hugo and the House of Saud.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 10):
Complete BS petrol isn't even close to diesel levels of fuel consumption let alone coming close to diesel torque levels, hybrids aren't any better either.

We've been through this (twice?). Those numbers look rosy until you compare the best gas with the best diesel across all lines. Comparing the gas engines of one manufacturer who has bet their farm on diesel with their less advanced gas engines is not relevant. Try Ford gas vs. VW diesel. When I have more time, we'll look at the Chevy Cruze Eco which closely matches the TDIs without even using all the latest gas tricks.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
Part of that is the government taxing diesel more heavily.

Accounts for less than 2%.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
By the way, the Audi Q7 TDI gets 4 mpg better than a Tahoe Hybrid. And it starts at almost exactly the same price.

Factually incorrect. Across the board. Again. The Tahoe hybrid beats the Audi in city and combined mileage and only 3 mpg less on highway. And, it's larger and more capable. Same with the Escalade hybrid. You should be embarrassed with that remark.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
ne reason to put more diesels into more vehicles in the USA is to meet Government's CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) standards.

And interestingly, Volkswagen AG is the ONLY manufacturer adamantly opposed to the latest CAFE standards. Why do you think they are afraid of them? (serious question)

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 15):
The current cetane levels are tailored for big truck diesels.

As they should be. Without the trucking industry, the entire country would come to a stop.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 5):
One factor that you missed - diesel engines generally have a much longer service life - provided they get vital oil changes ontime and use low-sulfur diesel fuel.

And their maintenance is also more expensive. Wait until Suzy Carbuyer finds out she needs to worry about her urea levels. "Urea? Isn't that urine??!!" lol.

The one place where diesel will truly shine is as a generator for a series hybrid. Generate the electricity as needed. The motor will run at a constant speed where diesel is most efficient. Diesels have NO advantage in city driving.

Anybody who doubts anything I have said should be looking here. There are some interesting surprises in the data...http://www.fueleconomy.gov/

On another note, Chevy will sell a Cruze diesel next year. Here is what Bob Lutz has to say about it...

"Yeah, it’s almost impossible. We’ll do some because we’ve got them in Europe anyway, and we’ll make them compliant and GM will sell a few just to show that we’re part of the game. But I don’t think anyone sees much of a future for diesels in the states because our emissions regulations are six times tougher than Euro 5, and multiple times tougher than Euro 6, which nobody even knows how to do yet. The companies that are selling diesels in the United States, last time I checked which was over a year ago, are all operating on EPA deviations. So nobody meets even current diesel emissions standards. The EPA renews the deviations on an annual basis, but they’re not supposed to renew for more than three years.

It’s just so tough. You need the urea tank and everything, and in order to do the post-combustion NoX reduction in the catalyst, you have to deviate fuel to the catalyst because every two minutes a burn takes place to fry all the oxides of nitrogen and particulates. Well, that reduces the diesel advantage. So now you’re talking $2,500 of hardware and a big urea tank, and instead of a 30% gain in fuel economy, you’re looking more like 18% or 20% and you’re using a fuel that costs 18-20% more per gallon than gasoline. You tell me how this makes sense.

I mean, it’s cool. Owners of Volkswagon diesels love to go around saying [affects a voice dripping with self-satisfaction] “I have a turbodiesel,” and everyone says “wow.” But Ford canceled their passenger car diesel program, they canceled their midsized SUV diesel program, we canceled ours, we canceled passenger car diesels for the US. We were at one point talking to Honda to see if we could collaborate jointly on, say, a two-liter diesel for passenger cars, and we both came to the conclusion that it wasn’t worth the trip. They were hopeful (and frankly so were we) that with all they know about engine and emissions that they would be able to somehow conquer this emissions conundrum… they gave up. So all the major producers gave up on diesels for the US.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...be-a-game-changer-lutz-thinks-not/
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):
Quoting dreadnought (Reply 15):
The current cetane levels are tailored for big truck diesels.

As they should be. Without the trucking industry, the entire country would come to a stop.

Excuse me, but are you saying that the European trucking industry has collapsed?
 
mham001
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:23 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 21):
Excuse me, but are you saying that the European trucking industry has collapsed?

No, I'm saying the trucking industry should have priority over a few diesel whiners.
 
dazbo5
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):
Outside of range issues, diesel cannot compete with electricity in any way.

Not in my experience. I had a Toyota Prius on test drive for a week and averaged 55mpg from it, way less than Toyota promises, and I was driving economically too. I then test drove a diesel saloon (sedan) that was a much larger and heavier car and a lot higher specification, and achieve roughly the same MPG on the combined cycle, but a lot more on the motorway (freeway). Having made my choice and taken delivery of the new diesel car, a recent trip to an aviation museum that was a round trip of 230 miles, I averaged 73 mpg, and that was running air conditioning to keep the windows clear and heated seats as it was hovering around freezing. That beats the Prius I test drove and colleagues who drive a Prius for work. Even in an urban environment, I was underwhelmed by the Prius with many diesels matching and often beating hybrids on fuel efficiency. I can show onboard computer photos if needed. I've been driving diesels as my main car for 15 years now and every one has been more fuel efficient than their petrol rival, by some margin. How and where you drive them of course makes adifference too.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):
Those numbers look rosy until you compare the best gas with the best diesel across all lines.

In every petrol and diesel I've driven of the same model, the diesel is by far and away the more fuel efficient, and I've driven quite a few at work. That's why in europe at least, around 40% of all new vehicles sold are diesel powered and this number is climbing due to fuel costs on this side of the pond. You only have to look at manufacturers website and compare figures. Look at the 'eco' versions of most cars, for example Fords Ecomatic, Vauxhall / Opel (GM) Ecoflex, VW's Bluemotion, Skodas Greenline, etc. They are always based on diesel models.

Darren
 
mham001
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:34 pm

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 23):
Not in my experience.

That's all good. In the UK. Not very relevant in the US.

This statement by one of our preeminent car guys, Bob Lutz, says it all... But I don’t think anyone sees much of a future for diesels in the states because our emissions regulations are six times tougher than Euro 5, and multiple times tougher than Euro 6, which nobody even knows how to do yet. The companies that are selling diesels in the United States, last time I checked which was over a year ago, are all operating on EPA deviations. So nobody meets even current diesel emissions standards. The EPA renews the deviations on an annual basis, but they’re not supposed to renew for more than three years.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 22):
No, I'm saying the trucking industry should have priority over a few diesel whiners.

The European strategy has resulted in half of all cars there being diesels, resulting in far less fuel consumption per vehicle. Diesels are just as fuel efficient as hybrids overall - if you give them decent fuel. There are cars on sale in Europe that get 70 MPG - but they can't sell them in the US because of the crappy fuel.
 
Klaus
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):
And we have seen even more advancements in gas engines

I must have missed a lot there. I've noticed only rather small incremental advances in gas engines while diesels are still inherently more efficient and have indeed progressed substantially in the last years.

The notoriously ancient american engines may have closed up somewhat to the state of the art, but even there the difference still remains substantial.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):
while hybrids are now mainstream. There are currently 5 different hybrids sold here that resoundingly beat VW TDI's.

In what, exactly? Stop-and-go commuting? Well, that is possible. But that's about it.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):
Outside of range issues, diesel cannot compete with electricity in any way.

Sure. As long as you delude yourself that electricity somehow came from thin air. When you're looking at real-world energy generation, distribution and storage, it gets a lot more difficult. And when you're generating your electricity from fossil fuels, it just can't compete any more.
 
BMI727
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):
The Tahoe hybrid beats the Audi in city and combined mileage

How many big SUVs just plod along around cities? Not to mention, how much of the USA is big and empty? Diesel makes a lot more sense than you give it credit for.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):
And, it's larger and more capable.

The Tahoe is two inches longer, with two inches shorter wheelbase, and one inch wider. And the Tahoe has one more seat. And the Q7 actually has more towing capacity. (The Q7 has the same for the gas and diesel, so it's likely that the transmission is the slow boat)

But here is the other thing: with the Q7, I can buy the diesel for $5500 more than the gas version. But to go from a standard Tahoe to a hybrid costs an additional $12000 or so. The difference for a Touareg is about $3500 or so.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):
Same with the Escalade hybrid

You going to pony up the extra $20k for that?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):
GM will sell a few just to show that we are part of the game.

Sounds a lot like the Volt.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):
But I don%u2019t think anyone sees much of a future for diesels in the states because our emissions regulations are six times tougher than Euro 5, and multiple times tougher than Euro 6, which nobody even knows how to do yet.

So the problem is the government.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):
So now you%u2019re talking $2,500 of hardware and a big urea tank

He has no problems asking us all to pay $32,000 for a compact car though.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Sure. As long as you delude yourself that electricity somehow came from thin air.

That's a big part of it too. The reason diesels do not succeed in the US the way they have in Europe is almost completely due to government standards fixing the fight. If the regulators could remove their heads from their rears long enough to fix it, the whole problem would pretty much take care of itself.
 
dazbo5
Posts: 2719
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:05 am

RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):
That's all good. In the UK. Not very relevant in the US

Why isn't it relevant in the US? A diesel engine is a diesel engine. The economics might be different making diesel less compeative over petrol, but that's not what we were discussing.

Darren
 
MD-90
Posts: 7836
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:07 pm

So the solution is electing Ron Paul and eliminating the EPA so that (quite ironically) we can have MORE efficient vehicles on our roads.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Sure. As long as you delude yourself that electricity somehow came from thin air. When you're looking at real-world energy generation, distribution and storage, it gets a lot more difficult. And when you're generating your electricity from fossil fuels, it just can't compete any more.

The high tech Stirling engine, as developed by Philips, Netherlands, back in the 1970s-80s, might be even better, but Philips had to shut down the production and development because at this time diesel fuel was still so cheap that the much more expensive to build, but much less fuel consuming (and less choicy about fuel quality) Stirling engines could not compete. Philips built several demonstrators of practicaly applied Stirling engines, e.g. in stationary roles as electric generators, through boat engines, cars (they modified a Ford) to city busses.

Jan
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:17 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 25):
There are cars on sale in Europe that get 70 MPG - but they can't sell them in the US because of the crappy fuel.

No there aren't. Not in US gallons and not rumning our mileage tests. Knock 35- 40% off for a direct comparison.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
The notoriously ancient american engines may have closed up somewhat to the state of the art, but even there the difference still remains substantial.

Not in our market. It may be true in yours, but your notoriously lax diesel emission standards allow you to run things we don't allow.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
In what, exactly? Stop-and-go commuting? Well, that is possible. But that's about it.

Actually, not. Most similar sized hybrids beat TDIs in every facet. A couple fall short in highway. Anyway, if one really wishes to clean up the environment, one would like to see the most difference in stop-and-go, wouldn't one, Klaus?

I'm not pulling this from thin air, you are free to peruse this for yourself.. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Power...s=Family%20Sedans&srchtyp=marClass

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Sure. As long as you delude yourself that electricity somehow came from thin air. When you're looking at real-world energy generation, distribution and storage, it gets a lot more difficult. And when you're generating your electricity from fossil fuels, it just can't compete any more.

I'm sorry, but you are completely misinformed. Diesels only come close to electrics when comparing power from the dirtiest of the dirty coal plants.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
The reason diesels do not succeed in the US the way they have in Europe is almost completely due to government standards fixing the fight.

Oh, the irony. On the flip side, the reason diesels succeed in Europe is almost completely due to government standards fixing the fight.
While you bemaon US regulations as government intrusions, you hold up fight-fixing Euro regulations as bastions of everything right.

[Edited 2012-01-07 12:20:43]
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13976
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):
There are currently 5 different hybrids sold here that resoundingly beat VW TDI's. Outside of range issues, diesel cannot compete with electricity in any way.

Which ones, you're only talking about diesels on sale in the US where your choices are limited, diesel kicks electricity in the butt. The first diesel hybrids are coming onto the market, this it technology that makes sense, the petrol hybrid will go the way of the dodo someday soon.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):
Comparing the gas engines of one manufacturer who has bet their farm on diesel with their less advanced gas engines is not relevant.

Considering BMW builds the finest petrol engines on the planet your comment can't be taken seriously.

but I accept your challenge, here's some Audi engines:

Audi A6 3.0 TDI 313hp, 650nm, 5.7 litres per 100km

Audi A6 3.0 TFSI 300hp, 440nm, 8.2 litres per 100km

Audi A8 4.2 TDI 350hp, 800nm, 7.6 litre per 100km

Audi A8 4.2 TFSI 372hp, 445nm, 9.5 litres per 100km

and Ford

Ford Mondeo 2.2 TDIC 200hp, 450nm, 6.0 litres per 100km

Ford Mondeo 2.0 Ecoboost 203hp, 320nm, 7.7 litres per 100km
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:22 pm

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 2):
They have been talking about having more diesel vehicles for years, with only a couple of diesel vehicles actually becoming a reality

YES exactly. About 12 diesel light duty vehicles have been announced from 2000-2010. (Honda Accord among many others). Of those, about 4 entered limited production. Volkswagen being the one that sold any in actual volume. And some years, VW sales were stopped by our aggressive new emissions laws. (2006-2009 or so). For those years, zero light duty diesel vehicles were sold in the US. (this excludes heavy trucks).


The Jeep Liberty CRD and Grand Cherokee CRD did sell, but in tiny numbers already (search "used diesel grand cherokee for sale"). There are a few used ones out there. All the german companies have sold a few diesel SUVs and some diesel sedans. The only common ones being diesel Jetta, Golf. Otherwise this is all peanuts so far.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:25 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 31):
While you bemaon US regulations as government intrusions, you hold up fight-fixing Euro regulations as bastions of everything right.

It's the US that's fixing the fight. It's ridiculous enough that the government is going to tell me how much fuel I'm allowed to use but to also tell me what technology I should use to do it is another step beyond the reasonable.
 
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par13del
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
That's a big part of it too. The reason diesels do not succeed in the US the way they have in Europe is almost completely due to government standards fixing the fight. If the regulators could remove their heads from their rears long enough to fix it, the whole problem would pretty much take care of itself.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
It's the US that's fixing the fight. It's ridiculous enough that the government is going to tell me how much fuel I'm allowed to use but to also tell me what technology I should use to do it is another step beyond the reasonable.

So is it accurate that US emmissions controls for diesel engines is higer than those in Europe?
The so called crappy fuel, is it that Europe refines the diesel to a higher level?
Is diesel fuel more expensive or cheaper due to the government intervention on both sides?

What I know about diesel which I first saw in the Caribbean was that most bus and truck drivers first removed the "governors" to obtain more power thus resulting in the black pollution smoke, sure put a big dent in the movement when they started making diesel cars. Times have changed, especially when decades ago dieles was much cheaper than gas, now, diesel is in some cases the same or even higher.
 
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stasisLAX
Topic Author
Posts: 2974
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 15):
decrease the taxes on diesel and increase them on gasoline gradually so that diesel costs 20-25% less than gasoline.

And an marked increase in diesel fuel refining capacity - U.S. oil companies need to ramp up diesel production if market demand sharply increases, or diesel fuel prices will rise.

[quote=mham001,reply=20]http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...be-a-game-changer-lutz-thinks-not/

But yet from this same article; "Ford, Toyota or Honda haven’t got a diesel for the U.S. yet, but get ready for 2013-2014. That’s when we’re going to see a lot more diesels." So the competition in the marketplace will force other auto makers to offer diesel powertrains, especially in compact and subcompact models.
 
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Dreadnought
Posts: 10201
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:15 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 36):

And an marked increase in diesel fuel refining capacity - U.S. oil companies need to ramp up diesel production if market demand sharply increases, or diesel fuel prices will rise.

I've talked to people in the oil industry - Producing more diesel, even the higher cetane one, would not be a big deal if the shift looks to be permanent. There are some one-time setup costs, but not very expensive. Diesel still requires less processing than gasoline.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 36):
But yet from this same article; "Ford, Toyota or Honda haven’t got a diesel for the U.S. yet, but get ready for 2013-2014. That’s when we’re going to see a lot more diesels." So the competition in the marketplace will force other auto makers to offer diesel powertrains, especially in compact and subcompact models.

But it won't have any impact as long as the cetane remains low and the price of diesel remains artificially high.

Remember that diesel SHOULD be cheaper. It requires less processing.
 
dazbo5
Posts: 2719
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:05 am

RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:01 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 35):
Is diesel fuel more expensive or cheaper due to the government intervention on both sides?

Diesel is more expensive in Europe than other fuels, mainly because of taxation. Diesel is currently ~£6.35 (US$ 9.52) per gallon in the UK, gasoline ~£6.05 (US$ 9.07) per gallon and LPG ~£3.32 (US$ 4.98) per gallon.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 31):

Actually, not. Most similar sized hybrids beat TDIs in every facet.

Re-read my post above. I've driven both hybrids and diesels and in my experience, modern diesels, especially the 'eco' versions of models are more fuel efficient than hybrids. This is real world driving, not manufacturer quotes.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 31):
There are cars on sale in Europe that get 70 MPG - but they can't sell them in the US because of the crappy fuel.
No there aren't. Not in US gallons and not rumning our mileage tests. Knock 35- 40% off for a direct comparison.

How do you explain this then;



The US and European (UK) gallon is slightly different of course. But like for like, they are still more efficient.

Darren

[Edited 2012-01-07 17:19:24]
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4500
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:28 am

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 38):
Diesel is more expensive in Europe than other fuels

Not always. In the Netherlands diesel is actually cheaper. But the taxation on diesel powered cars is a lot higher, so that makes the point moot unless you make a lot of KMs. The break-even point normally lies around 20.000 KM. This varies since the cars are taxed based on emisson levels. Some diesel cars are tax exempt since they meet certain targets. It´s probably not gonna be a big surprise that these cars tend to be the slower versions. For instance the VW Polo Slowmo Bluemotion or the Fiat Punto Evo.


You can get the daily fuel prices per liter at below website. By selecting a date range you can even see how the price has developed over the last few years (summary: it's gone up). Here's today's prices:

1,62 euro per liter, Petrol Euro95
1,37 euro per liter, Diesel, sulphur free
1,68 euro per liter, V-power petrol
1,45 euro per liter, V-power diesel


For some reason the link won't show, but if you click on the link with edit details you can go to the website I mentioned.

Top
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 10201
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:54 am

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 38):
How do you explain this then;

Shhhhh.... Facts get in the way of the idea that we should be running our cars on nothing worse than unicorn farts.
 
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Polot
Posts: 13099
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:04 am

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 38):
How do you explain this then;

Just out of curiosity, what engine is that?

And KiwiRob, in the interest of fairness, the Audi A6 3.0 TDI 313hp's fuel economy is actually a slightly worse but still respectable 6.4l/100km (You were using the highway rating for that engine but the combined rating for everything else).

[Edited 2012-01-07 20:03:31]
 
B777LRF
Posts: 3040
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:26 am

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 38):
Diesel is more expensive in the UK than other fuels, mainly because of taxation. Diesel is currently ~£6.35 (US$ 9.52) per gallon in the UK, gasoline ~£6.05 (US$ 9.07) per gallon and LPG ~£3.32 (US$ 4.98) per gallon.

Fixed it for you.

Point of order: The UK does not equal the rest of Europe. In fact, quite a lot of people from that wind- and rainswept island will claim not to be European at all, displaying a rather alarming lack of geographical, political and historical knowledge - but that's for another thread.

The spread as illustrated by petertenthije gives a much better picture of overall differences betwixt diesel and petrol, i.e. diesel will as a general rule be cheaper than petrol.

I converted to diesel a few years ago. I came around following renting of very many cars, the majority of which were diesels. What won me over, apart from the much reduced fuel consumption, was the torque and quietness of diesels. I'm now running a BMW 530d, which will sit happily all day on the Autobahn cruising at 100 mph (160 kmh) spinning around at less than 2500 rpm and burning around 6.5 litres per 100 km. Show me a 1900kg petrol car that'll do the same. Hint: You can't.

[Edited 2012-01-08 02:29:44]
 
dazbo5
Posts: 2719
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:26 am

Quoting polot (Reply 41):
Just out of curiosity, what engine is that?

VW Groups 1.6 TDI.

Darren
 
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par13del
Posts: 11268
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:11 pm

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 38):
Diesel is more expensive in Europe than other fuels, mainly because of taxation. Diesel is currently ~£6.35 (US$ 9.52) per gallon in the UK, gasoline ~£6.05 (US$ 9.07) per gallon and LPG ~£3.32 (US$ 4.98) per gallon.

Thanks, so another question, if diesel is more expensive due to taxation how has Europe gotton so much more diesel vehicles deployed, are taxes on purchasing diesel vehicles lower than gas vehicles, just wondering about the policies which have led to such a large discrepancy between the number of cars on both sides of the pond. Europe has been a severe critic of pollution in the US, I find it had to believe that the US stricter emmission controls is the only reason.
 
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STT757
Posts: 14739
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RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:18 pm

To echo previous comments, I'm in the market for a new car and I'm interested in the new Volkswagen Passat. The TDI diesel intrigues me with it's good mileage, however where I live Diesel is about .25 cents more expensive per gallon vs gasoline. I don't see how switching to diesel would save me money over the gas powered Passat.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:26 pm

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 38):
Quoting par13del (Reply 35):
Is diesel fuel more expensive or cheaper due to the government intervention on both sides?

Diesel is more expensive in Europe than other fuels, mainly because of taxation. Diesel is currently ~
[quote=par13del,reply=44]Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 38):
Diesel is more expensive in Europe than other fuels, mainly because of taxation. Diesel is currently ~£6.35 (US$ 9.52) per gallon in the UK, gasoline ~£6.05 (US$ 9.07) per gallon and LPG ~£3.32 (US$ 4.98) per gallon.

Thanks, so another question, if diesel is more expensive due to taxation how has Europe gotton so much more diesel vehicles deployed, are taxes on purchasing diesel vehicles lower than gas vehicles, just wondering about the policies which have led to such a large discrepancy between the number of cars on both sides of the pond. Europe has been a severe critic of pollution in the US, I find it had to believe that the US stricter emmission controls is the only reason.

This only applies to the UK.
Over here Diesel fuel is taxed at about 20 cents per litre lower than petrol (gasoline), but the road tax for diesel-engined cars is higher.
Still, diesel fuel is sometimes almost as expensive as petrol. The oil companies claim that it is because of high demand for diesel fuel and not enough manufacturing capacities (especially sincde the medium destillates used for diesel fuel are also used as home heating oil and aircraft fuel), but others say that it is simply a rip-off based on the oligopoly situation controlled by a handfull of oil companies.
BTW all diesel fuel sold in Europe is ultra low sulphur.

Jan
 
GBLKD
Posts: 306
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:02 pm

RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:30 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):
multiple times tougher than Euro 6, which nobody even knows how to do yet.

Oh really? It appears this gentleman forgot to tell Scania that it can't be done.

http://www.scania.co.uk/about-scania...a/calendar/2011/scania-euro-6.aspx

Technology like that starts in the big trucks and filters down to passenger cars and light vans eventually.
 
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Dreadnought
Posts: 10201
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:44 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 44):
Thanks, so another question, if diesel is more expensive due to taxation how has Europe gotton so much more diesel vehicles deployed, are taxes on purchasing diesel vehicles lower than gas vehicles, just wondering about the policies which have led to such a large discrepancy between the number of cars on both sides of the pond.

That is exactly the case. It's not a huge difference, but diesel pricing is too high, partially because of all the inter-state trucking - each state wants to make a little money on the trucks that pass through their states.

http://www.api.org/statistics/fuelta...upload/gasoline-diesel-summary.pdf

Quoting par13del (Reply 44):
Europe has been a severe critic of pollution in the US, I find it had to believe that the US stricter emission controls is the only reason.

European standards allow for slightly higher NOx emissions from diesel than from gasoline engines. I think that's where the US failed but I'm not sure.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Diesel Engined Passenger Vehicles Resurgent In USA

Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:55 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 48):

European standards allow for slightly higher NOx emissions from diesel than from gasoline engines. I think that's where the US failed but I'm not sure.

Diesel engines are more efficient than Otto cycle (Gasoline) engines, because they run at higher temperatures and pressures for the working medium (air, which gets heated by the combustion of the fuel). Since the engines run on air, which is 78% nitrogen, and not pure oxygen, the high temperatures cause some of the oxygen to react with some of the nitrogen to form nitrous oxydes.
The only way to reduce the NOx emission would be to reduce the working temperatures, which again would cut back on the fuel efficiency of the engines.

Jan

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