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1337Delta764
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Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:16 pm

With the 2014 Chevy Impala and 2012 Cadillac XTS confirmed to be on the new full-size Super Epsilon platform, where does this leave Buick? Buick still hasn't announced a replacement for the Lucerne.

If Buick doesn't come out with a Super Epsilon vehicle, the Chevy Impala may end up being around the same price, or even priced higher than the Buick LaCrosse. After all, Buick is supposed to slot between Chevy and Cadillac, similar to what Ford's Mercury brand did between Ford and Lincoln. It would seem strange that Chevy and Cadillac would have a true full-size flagship, but Buick would not.
 
srbmod
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:39 pm

Buick recently killed off their vehicle in that segment, the Lucerne. Buick may not be bringing out a vehicle on the Super Epsilon platform until 2014 at the earliest. The only new vehicle being mentioned for the 2013 MY is a Buick version of the Opel Astra (Which GM had previously sold in the US as a Saturn.). There have been rumors that they could be bringing the Park Avenue (which is built on the Zeta platform and is based on the Holden WM Caprice) they sell in China to the US market (They are sent to Shanghai-GM from Australia as knock down kits.).

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2011/10/...es-for-2012-2013-2014-model-years/
 
BMI727
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:59 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Buick still hasn't announced a replacement for the Lucerne.

I don't think the car world is clamoring for more of that. Not when you could buy a Caddy ATS.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 1):
There have been rumors that they could be bringing the Park Avenue (which is built on the Zeta platform and is based on the Holden WM Caprice) they sell in China to the US market (They are sent to Shanghai-GM from Australia as knock down kits.).

That would be really nice. They might be concerned about stepping on the ATS though. It would definitely be a better drive than the XTS though.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:01 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 1):
The only new vehicle being mentioned for the 2013 MY is a Buick version of the Opel Astra (Which GM had previously sold in the US as a Saturn.).

Don't forget the 2013 Buick Encore mini-people mover (CUV) which is based on a slightly lengthen and widened Chevy Sonic chassis (known within GM as the Gamma 2 platform, which also supports the brand-new Opel Mokka mini-CUV which is the "badge engineered" version of the Encore. The Encore's wheelbase (100.6 inches) is 1.2 inches longer than the Sonic, the overall length (168.4) is longer by 9.4 inches, width was increased 1.5 inches, and at almost 65 inches tall the Encore 5 inches higher than Chevy’s Sonic 5-door hatchback. At almost 49 cubic feet, total cargo space with the Encore is it's biggest selling point. Small footprint, fairly huge inside - similiar to the super-space efficient Honda Fit.

2013 Buick Encore


Quoting srbmod (Reply 1):
Park Avenue (which is built on the Zeta platform and is based on the Holden WM Caprice) they sell in China to the US market

The Chinese market Park Avenue would be a great "placeholder" in Buick's line-up for the deceased Lucerne, especially since Buick could offer it with a 6 liter V-8 engine (like my beloved Pontiac G8 GTP), which would be sure to make the "old school" Buick buyers happy. However, the 3.6 liter V-6 offered in the Chinese market Park Avenue (310 horsepower) is more likely, given the rising CAFE standards. RWD platforms just do not seem to be as high a priority with Buick as it is with Cadillac. The "super-Epsilon" platform used by the Cadillac XTS will also be used by Chevy for the next generation 2014 Impala for certain - but there has been no confirmation on whether there will be a Buick version. Buick could be waiting for the Cadillac "flagship" RWD sedan (which will replace the XTS supposedly) to market a full-sized new-generation Roadmaster.....

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Not when you could buy a Caddy ATS.

There is a rampant press rumor that there will be a compact Buick sedan or even a Chevrolet sedan (perhaps a new Chevelle or Laguna?) based on a slightly shortened Cadiillac ATS chassis (the Alpha platform). We know for sure that the 2014-2015 Chevy Camaro will indeed be based on a version of the Alpha platform - which should help the Camaro lose about 400 to 500 pounds in curb weight and better compete with the upcoming new generation 2014 Mustang. And the next generation (again smaller and lighter - notice the trend, here?) Dodge Challenger could be renamed and called the Barracuda, according to automotive press reports. So the pony car wars will continue!         
 
BMI727
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:29 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 3):
Buick could be waiting for the Cadillac "flagship" RWD sedan (which will replace the XTS supposedly)

There was one of those that was supposed to replace the DTS and look how that turned out. Sure the ATS is a step in the right direction, so it's likely only a matter of time before they take two steps back.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 3):
We know for sure that the 2014-2015 Chevy Camaro will indeed be based on a version of the Alpha platform - which should help the Camaro lose about 400 to 500 pounds in curb weight and better compete with the upcoming new generation 2014 Mustang. And the next generation (again smaller and lighter - notice the trend, here?) Dodge Challenger could be renamed and called the Barracuda, according to automotive press reports. So the pony car wars will continue!

They all better lose a ton of weight since they are currently all bloated.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:25 am

A couple thoughts: At least in my opinion that Buick Encore looks like a stubby knackwurst on 4 wheels. Is the next generation Impala switching back to RWD? I've been less than impressed with Buick since they deep sixed the Riviera, Park Avenue/Electra. To me Buick is a barley gussied up Chevy. When GM became Government Motors they should have deep sixed Buick and retained Pontiac. They could have made a boring Pontiac Parisian or Catalina for the grumpy old Republican Golf set on a budget and for the Chinese who for some reason have a love jones for cars that handle like a turd, have fluffy but unsupportive low slung seats and totally lack any fun to drive factor.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:32 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 5):
Is the next generation Impala switching back to RWD?

Nope, Super Epsilon (Impala and XTS) is FWD/AWD.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:59 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 5):
A couple thoughts: At least in my opinion that Buick Encore looks like a stubby knackwurst on 4 wheels

It's actually styled for the Chinese market - where it will be one of the price-leaders for the Buick model line-up. Buick will sell it here in the US because, like Ford's "One Ford" marketing theory, GM has a "one Buick" marketing theory where Buicks are all basically the same model in every sales market.... well, except for the damn RWD Buick Park Avenue that GM gives the Chinese but not us Americans.   
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:50 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 7):
It's actually styled for the Chinese market - where it will be one of the price-leaders for the Buick model line-up. Buick will sell it here in the US because, like Ford's "One Ford" marketing theory, GM has a "one Buick" marketing theory where Buicks are all basically the same model in every sales market.... well, except for the damn RWD Buick Park Avenue that GM gives the Chinese but not us Americans.

I understand mighty animal and human rights abuser China is flying into their own economic turbulence. Their housing bubble is self destructing as we speak. Buick and China deserve each other.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:55 pm

Kinda off topic, but what ever happened to the Lucerne? When it was introduced Buick made believe that it was the end all to be all car. Why did it fail?
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:51 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 9):
Kinda off topic, but what ever happened to the Lucerne? When it was introduced Buick made believe that it was the end all to be all car. Why did it fail?

I wouldn't say that it failed, but it was geared/targeted to a senior citizen clientele that (later) Buick was trying to get away from. Which is why they now market the LaCrosse and the Regal sedans. Buick wants middle aged affluent buyer, and wants to cater to the Chinese market. Furthermore, the platform that the Lucerne utilized had reached the end of its lifecycle. The Lucerne shared its platform with the also-now deceased Cadillac DTS (replaced by the new XTS sedan), so off to the graveyard the Lucerne went, along with many of its buyers.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:04 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 10):
The Lucerne shared its platform with the also-now deceased Cadillac DTS (replaced by the new XTS sedan), so off to the graveyard the Lucerne went, along with many of its buyers.

  

For Buick's sake hopefully they make cars geared toward a younger buying pool. Caddy was able to do this. I remember when Caddy's were basically pimp-mo-biles and mainly geriatric well healed GOP set who loved golf. The height of Caddy being an old people's car was their campaign back in the 90's where the duck lept off the crest and that awful Making Whoopy song.
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:44 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 3):
in Buick's line-up for the deceased Lucerne, especially since Buick could offer it with a 6 liter V-8 engine (like my beloved Pontiac G8 GTP),

Have you engineered such a concotion by mating a Grand Prix and a G8?
 
Superfly
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 3):
Don't forget the 2013 Buick Encore



Looks like the Pontiac Aztek is trying to re-surface it's ugly head!   


I'd like to see the return of an Electra 225.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 11):
The height of Caddy being an old people's car was their campaign back in the 90's where the duck lept off the crest and that awful Making Whoopy song.

Actually, the Caddy ads that showed a cartoon duck leaping off the crest was for the Catera model.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 10):
Quoting type-rated (Reply 9):
Kinda off topic, but what ever happened to the Lucerne? When it was introduced Buick made believe that it was the end all to be all car. Why did it fail?

I wouldn't say that it failed, but it was geared/targeted to a senior citizen clientele that (later) Buick was trying to get away from.

The Lucerne was launched at a time when Buick, stupidly IMHO, renamed every car in its North American lineup that was redone/revamped in the 2000s. Long-running and familiar nameplates like LeSabre, Park Avenue, Century and Regal (until recently) were all dropped in favor of the first-generation LaCrosse (Allure in the Canadian market) and Lucerne. There was no sense of product/model continuity of any kind. Had the Lucerne been called either a LeSabre or Park Avenue, it might've sold better IMHO. Ironically, the Buicks sold in the Chinese market use the longer-running, familiar (to the U.S. market) nameplates.

For those that think model names don't matter, consider the following: would Honda rename its Accord; would Toyota rename its Camry; why did Mulally hastily slap the then-just decommissioned Taurus and Sable badges on the face-lifted 2008 Five Hundred and Montego?

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 3):
Don't forget the 2013 Buick Encore mini-people mover (CUV)

Is Buick aware that the last vehicle to wear the Encore badge was the hatchback version of its AMC/Renault Alliance circa 1983-1987?

 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:56 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 14):
Is Buick aware that the last vehicle to wear the Encore badge was the hatchback version of its AMC/Renault Alliance circa 1983-1987?

I think Buick is betting that no one in the Buick Encore's target market (largely China) will recall the generally horrible Renault/AMC version.....
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 15):
I think Buick is betting that no one in the Buick Encore's target market (largely China) will recall the generally horrible Renault/AMC version.....

   I was under the impression that this vehicle was being offered in the North American market as well.

We'll see. In retrospect, Chevy stepped in it big time IMHO when it named its now-infamous X-body (the Citation) after an Edsel.

It's also worth noting that Lincoln re-designated its Fusion-based sedan from Zephyr to MKZ after one year due to most people still associating the Zephyr name with Mercury's version of the Fairmont rather than a pre-WW2 Lincoln (from the 1936-1942).
 
747400sp
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:29 am

I really thought the La Cross and the 2012 XTS and 2013 Impala, was on the same platform. I lost points as a car guy.      
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Super Epsilon-based Buick?

Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:50 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 17):
I really thought the La Cross and the 2012 XTS and 2013 Impala, was on the same platform. I lost points as a car guy.

Nope, the LaCrosse is on the long wheelbase version of the standard Epsilon II mid-size car platform. The upcoming Impala and XTS will be on the Super Epsilon full-size car platform, which is larger.

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