Ken777
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:10 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 137):
Carnival is not involved, thy are the parent of Costa Crociere, that#s all.

As long as Costa is part of Carnival then Carnival's pockets are involved.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 137):
US passengers can sue Costa but they'll likely have to do that in an italian court and there's no "jury".

My bet is that a lot of the US Pax bought their tickets in the US, which is another link.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 137):
Normally, here, passengers can get their losses replaced, get back the passage, compensation for lost vacation days and usually the cruise line gives a travel voucher for the lost cruise and an additional cruise.

If there are sufficient links to US campaniles then there are two issues that the potential defendants. The fist is that Carnival will not want the wreck to remain in the public mind on a long term basis, which is what happens if this moves to trial(s).

The second issue is punitive damages, which are designed to punish the offender and set an example for others. When you have the big money issues as you do in this business the risks for big money on both sides (punishment & setting examples) gets pretty high.

Carnival will want to close any legal actions out really fast, and quietly.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 137):
The captain is in charge, even if one of the officers made the mistake. it ois his ship.

I agree with that. It's what I learned in the Navy and consider it the gold standard for command.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 140):
Ok for all we know, maybe the ship was in safe waters and there was an uncharted rock and it's actually the Greeks' fault.

That is going to be the interesting part. If there are other issues the Captain is still not blameless, but there is a difference in what his charges will be. It also presents potential risks for others who have delivered products that are defective - especially on the information side if there is evidence developing that there were defects.
 
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:28 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 149):
I've been contemplating the stabilizer as well. How do we know it wasn't deployed after the grounding? Could it have been deployed to help correct the list?

I'm thinking along this route. Stabilizers are normally not used until the ship is in deeper waters. We didn't use ours untill a few hours outside of port. Also I believe the officers started adding water to the starboard side ballast tanks and eventually lost the ability to stop it causing the ship to list on the opposite side of the hole.
James - Road Warrior
 
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Dano1977
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:33 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 150):

Regarding insurance...

(borrowed from a personal friend who posted on another website)

What is the betting, the insurance company turn around and say...

"The ship wasn't operated in accordance to your standard operating procedures, which you have so kindly pointed out while hanging the captain out to dry....INSURANCE CLAIM REFUSED!"

So now Costa/Carnival have a £500million hulk of scrap that needs shifting. Injury and wrongful death class action lawsuits filed, along with other compensation. Then there is the environmental impact clean up of oil and heavy diesel oil + any other stuff (sewage) leaking from the ship. I'm sure the Italian rescue people, will want to cover some of their expenditure on the rescue etc.

Factor in, now Costa are a ship down, and need to get another one to cover future bookings.
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MarSciGuy
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:39 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 140):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 137):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 136):
I think we need to chill out and stop blaming the captain until we have FACTS.

The captain is in charge, even if one of the officers made the mistake. it ois his ship.

Ok for all we know, maybe the ship was in safe waters and there was an uncharted rock and it's actually the Greeks' fault. I know that sounds stupid but my point is let's wait to get the facts before grilling the captain. I'm sure he will be found guilty and if he is, I have no problem seeing him punished for it. People died.

The thing is, these waters have been known, charted and travelled since the Etruscans... That rock has been on those very charts for at least the last century, if not many, many centuries...

At least in the US, the entire coastal zone is charted at the very least every 30 years - meaning the survey ships are continually working, but cover each and every square meter at least once every 30 years. Channels, harbors, and dangers to Navigation are mapped much more frequently then that. From what I have seen on TV and online, without knowing the size of the harbor that the Concordia ran aground outside of, at least two of those different conditions are met.

I know this is Italy and not the US, however the total italian coastline MUST be less than that of the US.
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:03 am

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 152):

"The ship wasn't operated in accordance to your standard operating procedures, which you have so kindly pointed out while hanging the captain out to dry....INSURANCE CLAIM REFUSED!"

I would hope that they would have purchased insurance to cover their own gross negligence. You can insure ANYTHING if you pay enough money. A Russian model insured her boobs, for crying out loud. No cruise line wants to get stuck uninsured in a case like this. Remember, it wasn't the CRUISE LINE's gross negligence, but the captain's (well, reportedly, anyway).
-Doc Lightning-

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ltbewr
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:35 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 154):
Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 152):

"The ship wasn't operated in accordance to your standard operating procedures, which you have so kindly pointed out while hanging the captain out to dry....INSURANCE CLAIM REFUSED!"


I would hope that they would have purchased insurance to cover their own gross negligence. You can insure ANYTHING if you pay enough money. A Russian model insured her boobs, for crying out loud. No cruise line wants to get stuck uninsured in a case like this. Remember, it wasn't the CRUISE LINE's gross negligence, but the captain's (well, reportedly, anyway).



I would assume Costa/Carnival have extensive layers of insurance and reinsurance with significant deductibles as to damages but not for punitive judgments. As noted by others, you have the costs to repair or replace the ship, the lose of revenues with this ship out of service until repaired or replaced, removal and scrapping costs, leasing another ship to cover passage on future trips planned, lost staff/crew wages, medical costs for the injured l, rescue and the losses of lives of crew and pax, environmental clean up costs, passenger personal belongings costs along with comp for the cost of this unfinished cruse, legal and investigative costs and of course, costs of civil judgments and so on. I wonder if the damages and losses could exceed $250 Million or more.

I would also suspect Costa/Carnival will have insurance premiums jacked up and higher deductibles from the next renewal period forward, perhaps requiring stricter operational rules to keep being insured or face even higher premium rates.

I wonder if the site of this crash has or will become a tourist destination, helping the local economy on the island.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:01 am

Wow...just...wow....

00:42am
Port Authority asks how many people still need to be evacuated.

Schettino:"I called and they told me there are about 100 people. I am coordinating the operations. But I can't go back on it. We have abandoned the ship."

PA:"Captain, did you really abandon the ship??"

Schettino:"No, no, I am here, I am coordinating the evacuation."

PA:"Captain, this is an order, now I am in charge. Get back on that ship and coordinate the operations. There are already casualties."


Schettino:"How many?"

PA:"You should tell me that! What do you want to do, go home? Now you get back on that ship and tell us what can be done, how many people are still there and what do they need."

Schettino:"OK, OK, I am going."

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PanHAM
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:43 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 150):
As long as Costa is part of Carnival then Carnival's pockets are involved.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 150):
My bet is that a lot of the US Pax bought their tickets in the US, which is another link.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 150):
Carnival will want to close any legal actions out really fast, and quietly.

That applies to US passengers only. Carnival might settle that out of court, alright. But technically carnival and Costa are separate companies. Even if Costa would be sued in a US court they could never force the Italian company to pay the law suits. Of course, anything that Costa owns would never be allowed to come into US territorial waters, That#s the down side.

The accident happened in Italian waters and Italian law applies. What happens between a US tour operator and US based passengers may be a different story.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 152):
"The ship wasn't operated in accordance to your standard operating procedures,

Unlikely, there's a lot of fine print in these contracts. The insurance company can turn to the captain and require compoensation . i doubt he'll be able to pay.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 156):
Port Authority asks how many people still need to be evacuated.

A senior Coast guard officer was shown oin TV last night and that is exactly what he said. The Coast Guard ordered evacuation of the ship, not the captain or the crew.

The crew had no clue what they where doing, they could not even operate the life boats. people have been standing in line to evacuate for an hour and nothing happened. If the coast guard had not taken over there would be more casualties.


How can a captain say that he abandoned ship? That's like a banker opening the vault and tell people to serve themselves. In the open seas that means anyone setting foot on the ship after the captaoin abandoned owns it right away.
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bananaboy
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:03 am

Concordia may sail again....

..."Costa Crociere line head Pier Luigi Foschi explained that the ship is not completely out of hope and said solutions for the moment were to salvage, not slice the boat up.

"It could be righted by means of balloons and once refloated towed away by tugs," Mr Foschi outlined.

Although he said it would “one of the most difficult [thing] in the world”, he did stress that “there are several possibilities but in the first place we must think about plugging the leaks”.

Recruited to assist with the eventual removal of the ship, Titan Salvage spokesperson explained that moving the ship from its current location could take weeks.


http://www.etravelblackboard.com/art...le/127451/concordia-may-sail-again

Mark
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DocLightning
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:05 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 155):
I wonder if the site of this crash has or will become a tourist destination, helping the local economy on the island.

Right now, it is strictly cordoned off. From a news report I just heard on NPR, there is concern that the wreck could slide down the steep bank that it's resting on and into deeper water. It will be a massive navigation hazard.

No, either the ship needs to be raised or broken up and moved.
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na
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:54 am

Quoting bananaboy (Reply 158):
..."Costa Crociere line head Pier Luigi Foschi explained that the ship is not completely out of hope

Surely not out of hope, but this hope is small and shrinking by the day. The whole machinery and electrical system is destroyed by salt water already, and the side the Concordia rest upon will be full of huge dents, gashes and other damage. The ship cost 550 million $ when delivered in 2006, so now may be worth 350-400 million. The salvage operation has already been estimated of being to up to 150 million. Most of the fittings and furniture on board wont be reusable, and there´ll be a lot of other internal damage, maybe even structural damage.
Also I doubt it would be wise to repair with respect to its possible future. Its not a small ferry where you can hide its history. Most possible future passengers will know this is the ship that capsized so fast.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 156):

Yes, wow. This captain´s life is in ruins. And if the things that have shown up so far are true, rightfully so.
 
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OA260
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:32 am

Quoting bananaboy (Reply 158):

Personally I dont like that idea . Just dont think I could go on a cruise vacation on a ship where such an event took place one thing is certain even the most seasoned cruise vacationers like myself will be taking the safety demos more seriously than before . My next cruise is only a few weeks away.
 
757gb
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:36 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 156):
Schettino:"I called and they told me there are about 100 people. I am coordinating the operations. But I can't go back on it. We have abandoned the ship."

PA:"Captain, did you really abandon the ship??"

Schettino:"No, no, I am here, I am coordinating the evacuation."

Apparently he clearly stated "We have abandoned ship". Then he said "No, no, I am here..." Did the communication take place in English or Italian? If it was in Italian, is the translation accurate? And if it was in English, is there a possibility of miss communication? While normally ship Captains (as well as airline Captains) need to be fluent in English, we have all seen cases where that fluency is not all that it should be. That plus the stress of the moment can really affect accurate communications.

I'm certainly not trying to look for excuses, just trying to cover all possibilities. Part of it is that I just find it incredible.
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na
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:54 am

Quoting 757gb (Reply 162):
Apparently he clearly stated "We have abandoned ship". Then he said "No, no, I am here..." Did the communication take place in English or Italian? If it was in Italian, is the translation accurate? And if it was in English, is there a possibility of miss communication? While normally ship Captains (as well as airline Captains) need to be fluent in English, we have all seen cases where that fluency is not all that it should be. That plus the stress of the moment can really affect accurate communications.

I'm certainly not trying to look for excuses, just trying to cover all possibilities. Part of it is that I just find it incredible.

Too me it looks like the captain panicked during the emergency. Likely at some point, when most passengers had left, he left too, maybe to lead the evacuation from one of the boats, or in a panic attack realising what he´d done wrong. In any case he was wrong. A captain is not allowed to leave the ship before everyone if off. If a senior officer is needed down at the boats to organize them, the captain must send his first or second officer.

That said, one should not over-exaggerate the reports of passengers complaining about "confusion" or (lower-ranked) personnel leaving the ship early. The first to board a lifeboat should of cause be some crew members, to assist and later steer it. And confusion in such event is normal. You cant expect this to happen like a military parade. That 99,5% got of the ship is not too bad a result.
 
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:17 pm

Quoting na (Reply 163):
Too me it looks like the captain panicked during the emergency.

  

That's the way it looks to me as well. Just trying to explore all possibilities and somehow attempt to understand a little better the context and how things happened. There is no excuse for him abandoning ship before it was empty, that's for sure.
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
tcasalert
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:28 pm

Quoting na (Reply 163):
Too me it looks like the captain panicked during the emergency. Likely at some point, when most passengers had left, he left too, maybe to lead the evacuation from one of the boats, or in a panic attack realising what he´d done wrong. In any case he was wrong. A captain is not allowed to leave the ship before everyone if off. If a senior officer is needed down at the boats to organize them, the captain must send his first or second officer.

According to this report: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...o-DID-abandon-ship-passengers.html Scettino abandoned the ship 30 minutes before the order was given to the passengers to evacuate. He was ordered to return to the ship but refused, instead hailing a taxi and asking the driver to get him "As far away from here as possible".

Abandonment of duty to the highest degree.
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na
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:29 pm

Look at this. Spectacular night vision footage showing the later stages of evacuation. There were still lots of people on the ship after it capsized! Scary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwmz9LN8wcE&feature=related
 
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:34 pm

Quoting na (Reply 163):
That said, one should not over-exaggerate the reports of passengers complaining about "confusion"

You can imagine there would be confusion with the lifeboats as you can't launch from the listing side, as you might have the ship come down on top of you, and you'd just scrap along the side of the ship's hull on the other. I'm not sure if I was in charge of a lifeboat which would be the safest option.

I'm not sure too how the captain thought he could get that massive ship into that tiny harbour.  
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
windy95
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:20 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 152):
"The ship wasn't operated in accordance to your standard operating procedures, which you have so kindly pointed out while hanging the captain out to dry....INSURANCE CLAIM REFUSED

I would think all insurance would be cancelled due to this fact.

Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 153):
The thing is, these waters have been known, charted and travelled since the Etruscans... That rock has been on those very charts for at least the last century, if not many, many centuries...

The Med is well travelled and these are known reefs.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 161):
Personally I dont like that idea . Just dont think I could go on a cruise vacation on a ship where such an event took place one thing is certain even the most seasoned cruise vacationers like myself will be taking the safety demos more seriously than before

Agree..

Quoting na (Reply 163):
Too me it looks like the captain panicked during the emergency.

Probably because he caused it.


It is just amazing that this man's judgement caused this tragic event. And to hear him say that the rock should not of been there. No captain you and the ship should not of been there.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:25 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 167):
You can imagine there would be confusion with the lifeboats as you can't launch from the listing side,

From various video and pictures, it looks like most of the lifeboats were successfully launched before the list became too bad to stop operation.

But many appear to have launched without full loads of people. These were probably the earliest boats on the starboard side - the side which sank. Folks would naturally have scrambled to the higher side of the ship and overcrowded those boats while they could still be launched. They would be adverse to going on the 'downhill' side to seek a boat.

Just like an aircraft crash, probably more than 50% of the passengers would have been initially unwilling to use the correct 'exit'. Many folks would not have been in their rooms and go to the pre-evacuation stations. Then wait until directed to go to their assigned lifeboat. They would have flocked to the nearest lifeboat on the 'safe' side of the ship.

What non-shipboard types don't understand is that the lifeboats on the uphill side would be stopped from launching long before the boats on the downhill side.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
777
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:29 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 156):
Wow...just...wow....00:42amPort Authority asks how many people still need to be evacuated.Schettino:"I called and they told me there are about 100 people. I am coordinating the operations. But I can't go back on it. We have abandoned the ship."PA:"Captain, did you really abandon the ship??"Schettino:"No, no, I am here, I am coordinating the evacuation."PA:"Captain, this is an order, now I am in charge. Get back on that ship and coordinate the operations. There are already casualties."Schettino:"How many?"PA:"You should tell me that! What do you want to do, go home? Now you get back on that ship and tell us what can be done, how many people are still there and what do they need."Schettino:"OK, OK, I am going."

At the following link you can find the registration of the phone call between the Port Authority and the captain (that at the time of the call was not onboard but on a lifeboat).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma80H1UaAkY

It has been really upsetting for me to listen this call, it's unbelievable... great reaction by the Port Authority BTW (the person screaming on the phone).

Min 2:08 "Go back onboard, fuck!!!" 

[Edited 2012-01-17 05:32:31]
 
rfields5421
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:33 pm

BTW - I've seen/heard twice this morning on two different US national news media (ABC TV and CBS Radio) the ship referred to as "a Carnival cruise ship" rather than a Costa ship.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
na
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting 777 (Reply 170):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma80H1UaAkY

It has been really upsetting for me to listen this call, it's unbelievable... great reaction by the Port Authority BTW (the person screaming on the phone).

OMG, that total failure of a captain was shouted at like he was sme dump apprentice. I can really understand that the harbour commandant got angry.
 
bueb0g
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:53 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 171):
BTW - I've seen/heard twice this morning on two different US national news media (ABC TV and CBS Radio) the ship referred to as "a Carnival cruise ship" rather than a Costa ship.

Carnival Cruises is the parent company that owns Costa, Cunard, P&O and some other cruise companies.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting 777 (Reply 170):
It has been really upsetting for me to listen this call, it's unbelievable... great reaction by the Port Authority BTW (the person screaming on the phone).

Here's the transcript:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/transc...oat/story?id=15376951#.TxWLZYHCaSp

This captain is beyond words. But the Port Authority guy seems to be someone worth knowing - not the typical PA bureaucrat that one would expect in such a position.
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rfields5421
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 174):
But the Port Authority guy seems to be someone worth knowing - not the typical PA bureaucrat that one would expect in such a position.

He does sound to be willing to take responsibility and do something positive.

He is in a very stressful situation. He never sees ships larger than the 150 foot long ferry, maybe 200-250 people aboard max - and now he can see a 900 foot long ship with thousands of people aboard literally capsizing at his front door.

According to Wikipedia the entire island has a population of less than 1,500 people. The cruise ship passengers and crew are at least three times that many.

This is one of the worst nightmares possible for a small port/ small town official - suddenly having to try and save three times as many people as the local population. The ratios are something like every able bodied person on the island need to pesonally save five or six people!!!

Probably a 15 or 20 to one ratio in the port.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
777
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:26 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 174):
This captain is beyond words. But the Port Authority guy seems to be someone worth knowing - not the typical PA bureaucrat that one would expect in such a position.

In Italy the Port Authority is formed by Military personnel, they are a sort of Navy's branch.
 
777
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 175):
This is one of the worst nightmares possible for a small port/ small town official - suddenly having to try and save three times as many people as the local population.

The Commander of the Port Authority on the phone call was that one from Livorno, a big Seaport, so he may realistically have the rank of Vessel Captain (the rank before Admiral, in the Italian Navy/Port Authority).
 
PanHAM
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:47 pm

The port captain is taking his responsibility serious and he is doing the job he is supposed to do. Since captain Schettino has abandoned ship, the port captain is automatically in charge and has the right to give orders to Schettino.

It is really unbelievable that Schettino has abandoned ship, this guy is a total failure. By doing so and saying that in public, as captain, he dis-owned Costa, at least in international waters that would be so. No idea if the same applies in territorial waters. At least the chain of command has been given to the nearest official .

I think this is without precedence at least for a passenger liner, unbelievable, what a coward.. .
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Dreadnought
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 178):

I think this is without precedence at least for a passenger liner, unbelievable, what a coward.. .

Actually something similar happened before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTS_Oceanos

Quote:
Captain Yiannis Avranas was accused by the passengers of leaving hundreds behind with no one other than the ship's onboard entertainers to help them evacuate. Avranas claimed that he left the ship first in order to arrange for a rescue effort, and then supervised the rescue effort from a helicopter. Avranas stated, "When I give the order abandon ship, it doesn't matter what time I leave. Abandon is for everybody. If some people want to stay, they can stay."
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janmnastami
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:07 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 147):
If the Italian Coast Guard is anything like the US, British or Japanese - the CG taped the conversation. Any transcript didn't have to come from any recorder on the ship.

The conversation is here, in Italian:

http://video.repubblica.it/edizione/...risalga-subito-a-bordo/85914?video
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting bananaboy (Reply 158):
Concordia may sail again....

True, someone in the Med may not want to sail on it again, but that doesn't mean that it may not get reflagged and renamed then sent somewhere else. The Exxon Valdez has been renamed several times since it hit a reef outside of Valdez. Most of it's service after 1989 was in the Med, but it's now called "Oriental Nicety" and is hauling ore out of China.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 171):
BTW - I've seen/heard twice this morning on two different US national news media (ABC TV and CBS Radio) the ship referred to as "a Carnival cruise ship" rather than a Costa ship.

Seems somewhat similar to when the media referred to Colgan Air 3407 as a Continental crash. Except that CO didn't have any financial stake in Colgan.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
cmf
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 171):
BTW - I've seen/heard twice this morning on two different US national news media (ABC TV and CBS Radio) the ship referred to as "a Carnival cruise ship" rather than a Costa ship.

Channel 7 in Miami (Fox) has only mentioned Italian owners. Nothing about the Carnival connection. Closest is about American passengers including some local.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 180):
The conversation is here, in Italian:

I have to say, after reading the transcript I have a great respect for the Italian Coast Guard commander.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
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kasimir
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:41 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 144):
Modern day navigation does not require "old school" and paper-and-pen as back ups for navigation. Nor would you want it. And all the cell phones GPS would not have changed this as you would never use/trust that over the on board, state-of-the-art navigation systems.

Sorry, for not being specific back then, but since I've seen some cruise ship bridges in my life and am relatively often on smaller ships, I know what I'm seeing. Done some research to proof my point. Just go to wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigation
Under the point "Modern technique" you will find a spreadsheet that illustrates the different methods that are used. Here a short summary of the methods that are used at ALL times:
- Dead reckoning or DR, in which one advances a prior position using the ship's course and speed. (Can be done with Pen and Paper)
- Celestial navigation involves reducing celestial measurements to lines of position using tables, spherical trigonometry, and almanacs. (Used primarily as a backup to satellite and other electronic systems in the open ocean.)
- Satellite navigation uses artificial earth satellite systems, such as GPS, to determine position.

Other navigation methods (like radar navigation) are used in within specific situations...

Haven't asked this in my last post, but wouldn't a responsible captain get a pilot onboard for such a maneuver (going close to the coast)? Don't know if this is even required.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:02 pm

Wow, I know I was the first to jump on the "not blame the Captain right away" bandwagon, but that transcript is some pretty bad stuff. If that transcript is true, I'm not sure the Captain has much of a defense...
 
757gb
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting 777 (Reply 170):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma80H1UaAkY

My Italian is very thin but what little I understood matches the transcript. I also asked whether there could be a language problem or misinterpretation, but after hearing that (assuming it's authentic, which seems to be) it really justifies the anger everyone is expressing. Unbelievable.
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
Flighty
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:22 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 185):
I'm not sure the Captain has much of a defense...

So far, it would be hard to imagine even his lawyer defending him. This guy deserves an anti-Sully award!! If Sully is 100 on the 0 to 100 stud captain meter, this guy might deserve the zero.
 
curlyheadboy
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 187):
So far, it would be hard to imagine even his lawyer defending him. This guy deserves an anti-Sully award!! If Sully is 100 on the 0 to 100 stud captain meter, this guy might deserve the zero.



Sure he sounds like the exact opposite of Sully, however I'm sure the blame and subsequent responsibilities will fall upon a larger group of people.
This captain is a tragic joke, fair enough: he wrecks a giant ship while pulling a stunt disregarding the thousands lives he's in charge of, then when the size of the screw-up unfolds, he panics and cannot cope with the emergency trying to hide and escape instead of coordinating rescue but, I ask myself, where were the other officers? How in the world Costa gave this man a job of such enormous responsibility, how did they evaluate him and the rest of their employees?
The audio of the conversation (the one on CNN's website is well translated) is appalling, you can hear the voice of the Port Authority officer going from disbelief, to frustration and finally anger while he tries to shake the captain and get him to cooperate. Incredible...
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:52 pm

To me it seems that this "master" is one of the people who want to have the glamour and privileges connected with a position or a job, but don´t have the balls and will to shoulder the responsibilities that go with it.

I´ve seen similar things in my profession, with unlicenced mechanics complaining about the higher salaries and privileges licenced, certifying staff get, but who are not willing to take the responsibility that are connected with certifying an aircraft.

I wonder how the rest of the crew were.
Possibly the beancounters also kept the actual ship operating staff (decks and engines, those who could do effective damage control) as small as possibly due to costs, with most of the crew being more like hotel staff.


Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:51 pm

Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 188):
Sure he sounds like the exact opposite of Sully, however I'm sure the blame and subsequent responsibilities will fall upon a larger group of people.

I agree, I can see many people responsible. Has sailing close to shore happened already, maybe by this same ship/captain many times, and was KNOWN, but nothing was done about it? Heads would roll. Is there some sort of ATC for the waters? (Idk if there is, but if so, I see heads rolling too.) Why did the company blame the captain so quickly? Maybe I need a tin foil hat, but perhaps they are trying to distance themselves... did they know this practice was going on? It *appears* that this was the sole mess up of the captain, but anyone higher than him that knew this practice was going on, or any subordinates that didn't report this action, could be in trouble. Also, the captain may or may not have abandoned ship early. Did other officers abandon ship? Are they required to help passengers and their subordinates, leaving just before the captain leaves?

I hope that this accident is the one to remove unsafe practices of the already safe cruising industry and lead to lives saved, just as many airline crashes have...
 
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OA260
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:36 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 183):
I have to say, after reading the transcript I have a great respect for the Italian Coast Guard commander.

Yes I agree he seems to be very good at organising and taking control which is what was needed.

The Captain is under house arrest now and is expected to make the 4 hour drive to his home shortly. His wfie has made a statement supporting him but I guess thats only to be expected.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:36 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 190):
Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 188):
Sure he sounds like the exact opposite of Sully, however I'm sure the blame and subsequent responsibilities will fall upon a larger group of people.

I agree, I can see many people responsible. Has sailing close to shore happened already, maybe by this same ship/captain many times, and was KNOWN, but nothing was done about it? Heads would roll. Is there some sort of ATC for the waters? (Idk if there is, but if so, I see heads rolling too.) Why did the company blame the captain so quickly? Maybe I need a tin foil hat, but perhaps they are trying to distance themselves... did they know this practice was going on? It *appears* that this was the sole mess up of the captain, but anyone higher than him that knew this practice was going on, or any subordinates that didn't report this action, could be in trouble. Also, the captain may or may not have abandoned ship early. Did other officers abandon ship? Are they required to help passengers and their subordinates, leaving just before the captain leaves?

I hope that this accident is the one to remove unsafe practices of the already safe cruising industry and lead to lives saved, just as many airline crashes have...

He is (or was) the master of the ship. This means that he is ultimately resonsible for whatever happens on the ship.
It also seems that some of his officers left the ship with him. E.g. in the recorded telephone conversation, where the coast guard commander tells him to return to the ship, he mentions that the second mate was with him.
Every officer (and crew member) has an emergency station and task on the ship, for which they are supposed to be trained.. Why did they leave the ship? So there seems to be a training issue as well, and the master is responsible for this as well.
And if the management of the cruise line should have made unreasonable demands, like cutting back on crew strength, it is the master´s duty to have the balls to stand up to them, and, if necessary, to resign.
It also seems that most of the ship´s crew were more like hotel staff, mainly involved in dealing with the passengers.
Since engines became automated and remotely controlled from the bridge, technical staff, like engineers, have been cut down. Additionally docking aids, like thrusters, have caused the reduction of traditional deck hands.
There also has been a trend to abolish the distinction between deck and engineering crew, so that the same people have to so both jobs, again reducing the number of qualified staff on board, who can do damage control while the passenger handling staff takes care of the passengers.
There is a reason why warships have much bigger crews. In peacetime they are not really needed, but during a fight many of them are on damage control details.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 190):
Why did the company blame the captain so quickly? Maybe I need a tin foil hat, but perhaps they are trying to distance themselves

Costa did not lay the blame on the captain, until after 2 or 3 days of mounting evidence when they admitted "significant human error".
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 193):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 190):
Why did the company blame the captain so quickly? Maybe I need a tin foil hat, but perhaps they are trying to distance themselves

Costa did not lay the blame on the captain, until after 2 or 3 days of mounting evidence when they admitted "significant human error".

My mistake. I forgot I found out about this incident a few days into everything, to me it was "right away"
 
Flighty
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 188):
Port Authority officer going from disbelief, to frustration and finally anger while he tries to shake the captain and get him to cooperate. Incredible...

Of course the capt was in no condition to perform his job... on TV they recently aired "The Caine Mutiny" (1954) - great movie about a WWII mutiny. Wanted to watch the whole thing but could not.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 195):
Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 188):
Port Authority officer going from disbelief, to frustration and finally anger while he tries to shake the captain and get him to cooperate. Incredible...

Of course the capt was in no condition to perform his job... on TV they recently aired "The Caine Mutiny" (1954) - great movie about a WWII mutiny. Wanted to watch the whole thing but could not.

What about his watch officers? The first mate is the next person in the chain of command, followed by the second and third mates. The second mate was apparently ashore with the captain when he had the phone call with the coast guard officer.
They also have the duty of relieving the captain from his duty if he isn´t capable of carrying it out.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
1stfl94
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:25 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 181):
Quoting bananaboy (Reply 158):
Concordia may sail again....

True, someone in the Med may not want to sail on it again, but that doesn't mean that it may not get reflagged and renamed then sent somewhere else. The Exxon Valdez has been renamed several times since it hit a reef outside of Valdez. Most of it's service after 1989 was in the Med, but it's now called "Oriental Nicety" and is hauling ore out of China.

The difference with the Valdez is that its customers were not the general public, who are likely to base bookings on remembering the sight of the ship capsized. And would people want to sail on a ship involved a fatal accident. Given the cost of raising and repairs, I think its far more likely that the Concordia will be scrapped.

Also don't be surprised if her sister ships slope into the background for a while to avoid drawing attention to the accident. This was what happened after the Herald of Free Enterprise accident, both of her sister ships were taken off Townsend Thoresen/P&O Ferries publicity material for the new couple of years.

Looking at the latest news, there will be more damaged caused by the operations as the divers have had to blast holes in the hull to get access to the cabins, scrapping is a certainty I'd say
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:31 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 193):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 190):
Why did the company blame the captain so quickly? Maybe I need a tin foil hat, but perhaps they are trying to distance themselves

Costa did not lay the blame on the captain, until after 2 or 3 days of mounting evidence when they admitted "significant human error".

The aforementioned statement from Costa Cruises came only 36 hours or so after the incident, very fast by any standard.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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OA260
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 198):
The aforementioned statement from Costa Cruises came only 36 hours or so after the incident, very fast by any standard.

Indeed I was amazed at how quick Costa came out and made that statement. I do feel its important to get the facts ASAP and also to get it out to the public and more important to the victims families.

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