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Dreadnought
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 198):
The aforementioned statement from Costa Cruises came only 36 hours or so after the incident, very fast by any standard.

Correct, when it had become quickly apparent that the crew had steered the ship way closer to the shore than was normally allowed, and by then they would have certainly heard from their own crew and from the PA that the Captain was acting... unlike a captain should, to be polite. Their admission of human error was fair, in my opinion - rather than try to blame it on bad GPS or something.
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Revelation
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:09 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 146):
''Mr Tievoli's sister Patrizia, a teacher on Giglio, wrote on Facebook at 9.08pm on Friday: "Shortly the Costa Concordia will pass really, really close, a big hello to my brother who will disembark at Savona and finally get to enjoy some holiday.''

I imagine her brother will indeed be having some time off, but I don't think I'd call it enjoyable or a holiday.
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OA260
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 201):
I imagine her brother will indeed be having some time off, but I don't think I'd call it enjoyable or a holiday.

If the final story is what is currently being reported then I wonder if they will ever realise the huge scale of what they have done !

Listening to the news tonight they reported that a French Man and his wife were in the sea and she didnt have a life jacket. He gave his life jacket to his wife and he died. The personal stories are tragic.
 
babybus
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:33 pm

One thing that has impressed me so far is that this does seem to be a very transparent inquiry and very well documented.

No captain courageous superhero bs. The whole thing is being handled very well.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:11 am

We all realize here that airlines have strict rules as to the routing of flights to maximize fuel utilization and to prevent trouble. I suspect ships have similar rules on captains. Perhaps what is needed is full time monitoring of where ships are, from time to time review their route recorders to if they are within tolerable ranges of routes, to prevent such disasters as well as limit wasted fuel use.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:00 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 204):
Perhaps what is needed is full time monitoring of where ships are, from time to time review their route recorders to if they are within tolerable ranges of routes, to prevent such disasters as well as limit wasted fuel use.

Live tracking is done, and review of tracks after a voyage is also done.

However, variations off track can be expected on each trip due to wind, wave action, avoiding other traffic (there is no ATC most places), seeking a calmer ride. etc.

Had this not happened, someone in the cruise line leadership could have asked the Captain why he came so close to the island, and all he would have had to say was that winds were pushing the ship shoreward, and he moved away when he was informed.

The gap between the island and the mainland is about 7 1/2 nautical miles - so he could not have been 3 or 4 nm off course maximum. Even an airline would not catch that minor of a course alteration.

The only reason a cruise line might notice such a change is the proximity to the island.
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MarSciGuy
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:41 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 205):
The only reason a cruise line might notice such a change is the proximity to the island.

I think that that "only" reason is plenty reason enough... I would have said so even before last Fridays' tragedy, but even more so currently...
"There weren't a ton of gnats there where a ton of gnats and their families as well!"
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:02 am

IMO this is a definite scrap heap. Looking at photos there is huge structural damage along many bulkheads and there would have been damage to the entire propulsion system.

Worth more as steel and aluminum.
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:49 am

Quoting Babybus (Reply 203):
One thing that has impressed me so far is that this does seem to be a very transparent inquiry and very well documented.

  

I can't begin to tell you how impressed I am with that Italian Port Authority gentleman who had the presence of mind to make an audio recording of the conversation with Captain Dipshit. That recording took away any confusion or ambiguity about what truly took place in regard to rescue operations and the Captain's involvement.
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na
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:42 am

There must have been 50 and more passengers in the same boat as the captain and two of his (equally) cowardly officers. How come no one of those people has said something yet? Ridiculous how Schezzino explains how he ended up in a lifeboat prematurely. He was pushed or fell into the boat while trying to loosen stuck equipment. How come the same happened to his second and the third officer, in the same boat? Cowards in officers uniform, one of the lowest forms of living.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 202):
Listening to the news tonight they reported that a French Man and his wife were in the sea and she didnt have a life jacket. He gave his life jacket to his wife and he died. The personal stories are tragic.

Tragic, yes, but how come that a couple goes to the evacuation without a lifevest? There are sufficient in every cabin, and more at the muster stations. When I go on a cruise the first thing after entering the cabin is to look for the lifevests. And they are always easy to find.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:53 am

Quoting na (Reply 209):
There must have been 50 and more passengers in the same boat as the captain and two of his (equally) cowardly officers. How come no one of those people has said something yet? Ridiculous how Schezzino explains how he ended up in a lifeboat prematurely. He was pushed or fell into the boat while trying to loosen stuck equipment. How come the same happened to his second and the third officer, in the same boat? Cowards in officers uniform, one of the lowest forms of living.

I´m quite sure that any actual handling of the evacuation was carried out by the lower members of the crew, like stewards, ordinary sailors and other staff. It seems that all the socalled leadership buggered off... barstewards all of them!

Jan
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PanHAM
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:13 pm

If it wasn't tragic for the death people, passengers and crew, this would be a total joke.

A captain claiming that he was poshed into a lifeboat accidentally. What's next? Did the life boat fell off a truck?

I think it is safe to say now that 90 minutes passed before the crew started to evacuate and they did that without captainäs or another officers order. Could be called a mutiny but a good one. if they had started right away the dead and missing people might have had a chance.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:24 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 211):
I think it is safe to say now that 90 minutes passed before the crew started to evacuate and they did that without captainäs or another officers order. Could be called a mutiny but a good one. if they had started right away the dead and missing people might have had a chance.

They probably waited for an order and when no order came and the situation got worse, they eventually acted on their own.
The investigation will probably discover a few silent heros.

Jan
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OA260
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:07 pm

Quoting na (Reply 209):
Tragic, yes, but how come that a couple goes to the evacuation without a lifevest? There are sufficient in every cabin, and more at the muster stations. When I go on a cruise the first thing after entering the cabin is to look for the lifevests. And they are always easy to find.

Who knows we were not there and looking at the night time images it looked very scary . Maybe they could not get back to their cabin if the ship was sinking. These corridors are not easy to navigate if you have only just boarded it even takes me a day or so to get my bearings on a new ship that I have not sailed on before. Maybe they grabbed a life jacked that he saw along the way. Also in the panic others would be grabbing life jackets also. At the time there was panic so anything is possible.
 
windy95
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 213):
Quoting na (Reply 209):
Tragic, yes, but how come that a couple goes to the evacuation without a lifevest? There are sufficient in every cabin, and more at the muster stations. When I go on a cruise the first thing after entering the cabin is to look for the lifevests. And they are always easy to find.

Who knows we were not there and looking at the night time images it looked very scary . Maybe they could not get back to their cabin if the ship was sinking.

Some of the interviews that I have seen the people said that there was people fighting over life vests. That people who did no have them where ripping them out of the hands of some that did. So they must not of been easy to find. In the dark with no power would not be an easy way to find them. Do you want to wanderr into the hallways to your room to look for these? I doubt it. If the evacuation had begun earlier they would of been better off. This Captain was a real idiot..
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:19 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 212):
The investigation will probably discover a few silent heros.

Among the kitchen and dining staff apparently, but the others acted like louts, it seems.

Definitely a huge black eye for Costa. I find it sad, personally, because I remember going on a Costa cruise in 1980 in the Caribbean aboard the Daphne. It was a great trip (my first ever cruise) and the friendliest and best staff I ever had. I've been toying with the idea of taking my wife on a cruise and specifically looking for a Costa ship, based that experience, but now...

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na
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:29 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 214):
Some of the interviews that I have seen the people said that there was people fighting over life vests.

At least that cannot be attributed to the crew. Disgusting behavior to try to rip off a lifevest from someone else. I´d report such person to the police if I´d remember the face. Reckless people are everywhere, and panic isnt a good advisor.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 214):
Some of the interviews that I have seen the people said that there was people fighting over life vests. That people who did no have them where ripping them out of the hands of some that did. So they must not of been easy to find. In the dark with no power would not be an easy way to find them. Do you want to wanderr into the hallways to your room to look for these? I doubt it.

The lifevests usually are in the cabin wardrobe. Clear to be seen in shiny red when opening it once, and everybody will have opened it before to hang clothes. Also between hitting the rock and evacuation there was one hour at least. The most important thing to do in this hour, and likely the only thing to do is get a lifevest. It took more than an hour before the list was so severe that one couldnt walk in hallways anymore.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting na (Reply 216):

The lifevests usually are in the cabin wardrobe. Clear to be seen in shiny red when opening it once, and everybody will have opened it before to hang clothes. Also between hitting the rock and evacuation there was one hour at least. The most important thing to do in this hour, and likely the only thing to do is get a lifevest. It took more than an hour before the list was so severe that one couldnt walk in hallways anymore.

One thing i wonder about is what happened to the mergency power supply. Mostly the main generators are located in the engine room, and were probably flooded, but there should be at least one emergency generator located in a different location (often on an upper deck, close to the bridge), to provide emergency lighting.

Jan
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OA260
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:53 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 214):
Some of the interviews that I have seen the people said that there was people fighting over life vests. That people who did no have them where ripping them out of the hands of some that did. So they must not of been easy to find. In the dark with no power would not be an easy way to find them. Do you want to wanderr into the hallways to your room to look for these? I doubt it. If the evacuation had begun earlier they would of been better off

Totally agree . One thing I noticed which you may also is that on the HAL Eurodam key cards they have your lifeboat number on them. Not seen that on many .

Quoting na (Reply 216):
It took more than an hour before the list was so severe that one couldnt walk in hallways anymore.

Have to point out that in an interview a British passenger who was actually on the ship with her Italian boyfriend who was an engineer on the Concordia said that they were in their cabin and a bang followed by TV and glasses flying off the tables and their cabin went pitch black so based on that if you were not in your cabin I certainly wouldnt walk down a few decks to get my life vest as you risk being stuck there not able to get back up as we have seen with the people wearing lifejackets who have been brought to the surface dead by divers, They were in their cabins ! No one knew at the time the amount of minutes or hours they had . Easy for us to make comments sitting in our warm homes based on our limited knowledge of the situation.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 218):
Have to point out that in an interview a British passenger who was actually on the ship with her Italian boyfriend who was an engineer on the Concordia said that they were in their cabin and a bang followed by TV and glasses flying off the tables and their cabin went pitch black so based on that if you were not in your cabin I certainly wouldnt walk down a few decks to get my life vest as you risk being stuck there not able to get back up as we have seen with the people wearing lifejackets who have been brought to the surface dead by divers, They were in their cabins ! No one knew at the time the amount of minutes or hours they had . Easy for us to make comments sitting in our warm homes based on our limited knowledge of the situation.

Again, what happened to the emergency power supply? It should run independently of the main power supply (and not through the main switchboards in the engine room). Emergency lighting in the corridors should be battry powerd to last at least an hour (unlike on an aircraft, where emergency lighting has to be operational for 20 minutes, on a ship there is no weight problem concerning the installation of a few extra batteries).

Jan
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OA260
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:16 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 219):
Again, what happened to the emergency power supply? It should run independently of the main power supply (and not through the main switchboards in the engine room). Emergency lighting in the corridors should be battry powerd to last at least an hour

These are all issues that we will find out in the final report which is far too early to guess. I think its better to wait for the facts as anything else is speculation. One thing I have learnt is to never presume or judge. I have 20+ cruises and worked in the industry and I have learnt alot over the last 72 hours thats for sure. First thing I will be doing in a few weeks is find my quickest escape route and do a dummy run to my lifeboat. Something I would not have done before. It is of course unlikely I will need them but I guess the passengers of Concordia didnt think that either. Seeing those images of people sliding down the side of the ship and into lifeboats or in the sea is something I dont know how I would handle in real life. Id either have a huge panic attack or something would kick in and my survival instinct would get me through it who knows.
 
AviRaider
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:32 pm

Quoting na (Reply 216):
At least that cannot be attributed to the crew. Disgusting behavior to try to rip off a lifevest from someone else. I´d report such person to the police if I´d remember the face. Reckless people are everywhere, and panic isnt a good advisor.

I think fault still lies with the captain mostly, his lack of leadership and lack of proper crew training led to a panic at the worst possible time. Of course you are right in that each person is responsible for their own behavior as well.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 212):

They probably waited for an order and when no order came and the situation got worse, they eventually acted on their own.
The investigation will probably discover a few silent heros.

I'd be interested to know who the most senior person was that stayed on board and if that person took charge. Does anyone know?
 
bueb0g
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 190):
I agree, I can see many people responsible. Has sailing close to shore happened already, maybe by this same ship/captain many times, and was KNOWN, but nothing was done about it?

Here's the issue: back in August, the same ship & Captain carried out an almost identical manouver, actually getting slightly closer to the shore (this is corroborated by Satelite data from August 2011.) That manouver was checked and then approved by Costa, who deemed it safe.

If it was safe to do the manouver then (according to Costa/Carnival), why was it unsafe this time around? Obviously it was dangerous both times it was attempted BUT the fact that Costa approved the last, closer approach to the island but has not come out AGAINST this one reeks of BS from Costa.

Plus the fact that the manouver was approved before in August lends credence to the Captain's claims that the reef was "not shown on nautical charts".
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na
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:01 pm

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 221):
I'd be interested to know who the most senior person was that stayed on board and if that person took charge. Does anyone know?

They arrested another officer beside the captain. I dont know which rank. Then we have the second and third officer who fled with the captain, one of which might be the arrested officer. As for those two officers I dont know, maybe one of them acted on orders of the captain. Three officers in one boat though is unacceptable. I dont know about first officer or the junior officer ranks.
 
na
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:20 pm

The salvage company employed (Smit, a dutch company) estimates 3 weeks to pump off the 2000+ tons of oil on board when weather permits. I wonder why this takes so long when pumping it into the ship takes just a few hours. There is a valve where they can suck it out via an elastic hose to the salvage vessel nearby. This valve is ideally reachable as it is over water. So what should take 3 weeks here if the weather is ok is hard to understand.

Quoting na (Reply 223):
They arrested another officer beside the captain. I dont know which rank. Then we have the second and third officer who fled with the captain, one of which might be the arrested officer. As for those two officers I dont know, maybe one of them acted on orders of the captain. Three officers in one boat though is unacceptable. I dont know about first officer or the junior officer ranks.

I just read that the first, second and third officer are all under investigation.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:38 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 222):
Plus the fact that the manouver was approved before in August lends credence to the Captain's claims that the reef was "not shown on nautical charts".

Ships have been navigating those waters regularly for 3,000 years. I highly doubt there are a lot of uncharted reefs in the area. Maybe in August he came through at high tide, or this time he did not take exactly the same track. But this was no glancing blow - that boulder imbedded in the hull of the ship indicates that she was not anywhere near where she was in August.

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MD11Engineer
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting na (Reply 224):
The salvage company employed (Smit, a dutch company) estimates 3 weeks to pump off the 2000+ tons of oil on board when weather permits. I wonder why this takes so long when pumping it into the ship takes just a few hours. There is a valve where they can suck it out via an elastic hose to the salvage vessel nearby. This valve is ideally reachable as it is over water. So what should take 3 weeks here if the weather is ok is hard to understand.

The fuel oil, "Bunker Grade B" has at normal temperatures the consistency of tar. It needs to be warmed to about 70 centigrades before it will become really liquid. Also the salvage company will have to get access to the tanks first (which are normally located in the ship´s double bottom). The normal oiling connections will most likely be unuseable.

Jan

[Edited 2012-01-18 09:11:22]
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casinterest
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 225):
Ships have been navigating those waters regularly for 3,000 years. I highly doubt there are a lot of uncharted reefs in the area. Maybe in August he came through at high tide, or this time he did not take exactly the same track. But this was no glancing blow - that boulder imbedded in the hull of the ship indicates that she was not anywhere near where she was in August.

I'd skip the high tide part here. There is no tide in that sea that could account for that location. He hit it on the port side of the boat pretty high up. However I wil l say that a difference of 15-25 Meters further away would have allowed him to miss this rock.
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na
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:09 pm

Quoting CASINTEREST (Reply 227):
I'd skip the high tide part here. There is no tide in that sea that could account for that location. He hit it on the port side of the boat pretty high up. However I wil l say that a difference of 15-25 Meters further away would have allowed him to miss this rock.

Position and shape of the gash indicate that the ship was steering to starboard, perhaps a last second emergency manouvre.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 226):

Thanks for the explanation.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 208):
I can't begin to tell you how impressed I am with that Italian Port Authority gentleman who had the presence of mind to make an audio recording of the conversation with Captain Dipshit.

As I said earlier, it is SOP in most Coast Guard around the world to record all conversations. It is not however SOP to release such conversations. If the release was not done officially - someone is in trouble and may have damaged the prosecution of the Captain.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 222):
why was it unsafe this time around?
Quoting dreadnought (Reply 225):
Maybe in August he came through at high tide, or this time he did not take exactly the same track.

Winds, waves? Conditions at sea are never exactly the same. All that was needed was to have pushed the ship a few feet closer to the rock shelf. Such a difference is less than 10% of the ship width. Would the GPS track pick up that?

Also see last response below.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 225):
But this was no glancing blow - that boulder imbedded in the hull of the ship indicates that she was not anywhere near where she was in August.

Actually it is a glancing blow because the damage does not extend all the way aft to the end of the ship.

But as several folks has stated - the impact in that location could only have occured while the ship was turning to the right/ starboard. Which kicks out the left rear of the ship, and obviously kicked the left rear out into the rock shelf it hit. The impact was sufficient to break off a protruding portion of the rock.

I'm sure some divers are going to present us with pictures of the impact point in a few weeks, or this summer at the latest.
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vc10
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:28 pm

This might have been already answered, but has anyone got an idea why with a huge hole on her port side she turned onto her starboard side especially as the seabed seems to slope from her starboard side to port

The only answer I can think of is that she was heeling over in a turn as she finally touched bottom
 
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:47 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 229):
Actually it is a glancing blow because the damage does not extend all the way aft to the end of the ship.

The rock that was doing the damage is still embedded in the ship. That was no glancing blow. The reason the gash isn't all the way down the ship is that the ship dislodged the rock.

Quoting na (Reply 228):
Position and shape of the gash indicate that the ship was steering to starboard, perhaps a last second emergency manouvre.

It does appear like it was partially due to a drift. Either from previous momentum prior to a turn to starboard, or perhaps the current was moving the ship that way.
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Pellegrine
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:56 pm

Quoting na (Reply 224):
The salvage company employed (Smit, a dutch company) estimates 3 weeks to pump off the 2000+ tons of oil on board when weather permits. I wonder why this takes so long when pumping it into the ship takes just a few hours. There is a valve where they can suck it out via an elastic hose to the salvage vessel nearby. This valve is ideally reachable as it is over water. So what should take 3 weeks here if the weather is ok is hard to understand.

Three weeks to bill, bill, bill the client.

 
Quoting dreadnought (Reply 225):
Ships have been navigating those waters regularly for 3,000 years. I highly doubt there are a lot of uncharted reefs in the area. Maybe in August he came through at high tide, or this time he did not take exactly the same track. But this was no glancing blow - that boulder imbedded in the hull of the ship indicates that she was not anywhere near where she was in August.

Or maybe he was drunk.   

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 222):
Here's the issue: back in August, the same ship & Captain carried out an almost identical manouver, actually getting slightly closer to the shore (this is corroborated by Satelite data from August 2011.) That manouver was checked and then approved by Costa, who deemed it safe.

If it was safe to do the manouver then (according to Costa/Carnival), why was it unsafe this time around? Obviously it was dangerous both times it was attempted BUT the fact that Costa approved the last, closer approach to the island but has not come out AGAINST this one reeks of BS from Costa.

Plus the fact that the manouver was approved before in August lends credence to the Captain's claims that the reef was "not shown on nautical charts".

If he got even closer in August where was the reef? Reefs with rocks that large don't appear in a few months.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
rfields5421
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 230):
This might have been already answered, but has anyone got an idea why with a huge hole on her port side she turned onto her starboard side especially as the seabed seems to slope from her starboard side to port

The only answer I can think of is that she was heeling over in a turn as she finally touched bottom

After hitting the rock and bouncing off, the ship continued ahead for a few hundred meters, then did a 180 degree and headed toward the port on the island of Giglio.

Where the ship now rests is about 1 km/ 0.6 miles from where the 180+ degree turn occurred.

As the ship came close to the port, it struck the shallow water rock bottom shelving up to the shore - on the starboard side.

This happened about 45 min to 1 hour after the initial collision. It was a little after the grounding when was an evacuation begun, and passengers began to sense this was a serious emergency.

Only after the ship had grounded near its present location did it start to list to starboard. Videos show they were able to launch lifeboats from the starboard side for quite a while after the grounding.

But wind and waves continued to push the ship toward the shore, and the water coming in from the extensive damage on the starboard side flooded the ship, causing the list to increase until half the ship was underwater.

The ship is not resting on a level bottom. It is pushed up against a sloping bottom. It would be very easy for a storm to shove the ship off the rocks and into water over 100 meters deep in 10 or 15 minutes.

Remember we are seeing the results of two related but separate events.

The huge gash on the port side is the initial impact.

The capsize is the result of the grounding, which may or may not have been intentional.

The port on the island of Giglio is only about 500 feet long by 160 feet wide at the breakwater entrance. The entire ship would never fit into the port.
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Pellegrine
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:06 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 233):

Remember we are seeing the results of two related but separate events.

The huge gash on the port side is the initial impact.

The capsize is the result of the grounding, which may or may not have been intentional.

The port on the island of Giglio is only about 500 feet long by 160 feet wide at the breakwater entrance. The entire ship would never fit into the port.

Thanks for your eloquent summary. This was no Titanic...I'm growing tired of the comparisons.

Indeed the captain may have ended up saving many lives even though his initial actions may have endangered them.
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OA260
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 222):

Certainly a new twist to events !
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:22 pm

According to an article at the Swedish Television website
(who cites the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera,)
the ship have made 52 unauthorized course changes the past year,
just so that it could pass Isola del Giglio on a close distance.

This is supposed to be well know, by both the cruise line and Italian Maritime Authorities,
Despite that it is illegal to pass Isola del Giglio on such close distance,
Both the cruise line and the Italian Maritime Authorities have apparently been
looking through the fingers regarding the ship going so close to the island.

http://svt.se/2.22584/1.2680221/gjor...ingar?lid=puff_2680221&lpos=rubrik
http://www.corriere.it/
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na
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:23 pm

There was a second, off-duty captain on board. Cpt. Basio, the commander of an identical sistership, took over when the ships leaders fled, and led the evacuation to the end. At least this officer performed flawless.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting na (Reply 224):
The salvage company employed (Smit, a dutch company) estimates 3 weeks to pump off the 2000+ tons of oil on board when weather permits.

On Dutch radio 1 news a Smit spokesman has said they can't start removing the oil till the ship is fully stable. At the moment the ship is not stable, so they will have to wait.
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rfields5421
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:40 pm

Here is a chart I managed to find on-line. The depth readings are in meters. the color line near the shore is the 20 meter depth line.

You will note that the ship is resting on its side just above the 20 meter line, but that a depth of 93 meters is very close - only a couple hundred meters from the shore.

Search for Costa Concordia Aerial Photos on Google.

You can see how close to the shore the ship rests - but the steep shoreline is also very close to the topography of the underwater area where the ship rests - only the 'bottom' is much deeper - it averages 110 - 120 M once you get about 500-600M off the island coast.

The possible impact point is my best guess based on watching the live tracking replay on the highest level of zoom several times.

But I've seen TV reports which say the ship struck the 'reef' close to 2 km south of its current position (CNN) and another which said the impact was west of the island 15 km southeast of the island of Giglio (BBC).

I'll go with the ship track until I see an official report.

Giglio Chart
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Kiwirob
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 225):

Ships have been navigating those waters regularly for 3,000 years.

How many of those ships have the size and draft of a 110,000 ton cruise ship, ships 3000 years ago were basically a couple of blokes with some oars.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting ThunderboltDrgn (Reply 236):
This is supposed to be well know, by both the cruise line and Italian Maritime Authorities,
Despite that it is illegal to pass Isola del Giglio on such close distance,
Both the cruise line and the Italian Maritime Authorities have apparently been
looking through the fingers regarding the ship going so close to the island.

Aha! Looks like my theory may come true. As tragic as this loss of life is, I doubt we'll see any more "unauthorized course changes" anytime soon, potentially saving lives. Didn't this happen near Greece? If so, why is the Italian CG in charge?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 240):
How many of those ships have the size and draft of a 110,000 ton cruise ship, ships 3000 years ago were basically a couple of blokes with some oars.

Maybe not big ships, but lots and lots of fishing nets at that depth, and fisherman would have made sure outcroppings and reefs that could snag their nets would be marked.
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Flighty
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:26 pm

Question: don't they have good sonar to explore close quarters such as this? Such a big ship should have audible collision warnings right ?!
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 243):
Question: don't they have good sonar to explore close quarters such as this? Such a big ship should have audible collision warnings right ?!

Sure they have all sorts of sonar. The ship was only 5 years old. Last night on Fox News they had a segment showing a training simulator for a cruise ship, supposedly equipped pretty much the same as the Concordia. Just like an airliner simulator, but a hell of a lot bigger. A crew was practicing entering a harbor, and for the benefit of the cameras, the test supervisor suddenly introduced a squall into the simulation, which promptly caused the ship to ground. Pretty interesting.
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rfields5421
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 241):
Didn't this happen near Greece? If so, why is the Italian CG in charge?

No - it happened in Italy - in Italian territorial waters about 45-50 miles out from the port which serves Rome - Civitavecchia.

If it had happened in international waters anywhere in the world, it would have been the Italian CG responsible for the investigation because the ship is registered in Italy. If it happened in another nation's territorial waters, the Italian CG would be a major part of the investigation process.
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MarSciGuy
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:06 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 244):
Quoting Flighty (Reply 243):
Question: don't they have good sonar to explore close quarters such as this? Such a big ship should have audible collision warnings right ?!

Sure they have all sorts of sonar. The ship was only 5 years old. Last night on Fox News they had a segment showing a training simulator for a cruise ship, supposedly equipped pretty much the same as the Concordia. Just like an airliner simulator, but a hell of a lot bigger. A crew was practicing entering a harbor, and for the benefit of the cameras, the test supervisor suddenly introduced a squall into the simulation, which promptly caused the ship to ground. Pretty interesting.

Dreadnought, you are partially correct... As I noted earlier, because it is a practically brand new cruise ship the depth-sounding equipment aboard HAD to be decent, however most commercial vessels use what basically is a fish finder, except slightly more sophisticated. one ping goes straight down from wherever the 'ducer is mounted, hits something more solid then seawater, and rebounds. each "ping" gives an averaged depth over the footprint of that ping. (In shallow waters, this footprint will be smaller, allowing for a more precise reading than in deeper waters,unless the seabed under the 'ducer is at a steep angle, then the midpoint will be what you read on the bridge.

Now, on a ship as large as this they may have 2 or 3 different 'ducers, though each would have to be at a different frequency that did not interfere with the other 'ducers.

The part that I said was partly correct is that while yes, there are many much more expensive (and more accurate) sonar systems out there that can make dynamite graphics of the seabed in 1m resolution, you need a dedicated staff aboard processing the data to interpret the data correctly - AND you need to be going under 10 knots generally speaking.

I have heard of, and seen, singlebeam "fish finder" data from Federal vessels transiting the open ocean with their sonar turned on, but not being monitored and not going survey speed, and the data is extremely noisy - to the point you would almost prefer to go back out and resurvey the area vs trying to clean the data correctly.

Long story short, I highly doubt that any cruise ship would spend the money, time and energy to get a more accurate sonar when sll of the above trade-offs and realities kick in.

Oh, and in multibeam data, you can consider yourself lucky to process through a set of data in the time it took you to collect that data - ie 1:1 ration survey time:data processing time.

Sorry if this was too complex/long winded!  
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AviRaider
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 244):
Sure they have all sorts of sonar. The ship was only 5 years old. Last night on Fox News they had a segment showing a training simulator for a cruise ship, supposedly equipped pretty much the same as the Concordia. Just like an airliner simulator, but a hell of a lot bigger. A crew was practicing entering a harbor, and for the benefit of the cameras, the test supervisor suddenly introduced a squall into the simulation, which promptly caused the ship to ground. Pretty interesting.

And was it apparent that they where nearing land/shallow waters (i.e. warning horn, lights etc.)?
 
Flighty
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:51 pm

Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 246):
Sorry if this was too complex/long winded!

Great info. Yeah didnt know whether some kind of multibeam sonar is standard. If not, then a really, really good chartplotter might be a fair replacement? Although it is understandable not every rock face on Earth is in charts... for the benefit of idiots like this trying to get the last 50 meters to shore...
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Costa Concordia With 4,200 Pax Being Evacuated

Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:01 pm

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 247):
And was it apparent that they where nearing land/shallow waters (i.e. warning horn, lights etc.)?

In the simulator? yeah, all sorts of warnings went off. What kinda surprised me was how, after the grounding, they started going through a grounding checklist, just like pilots would go through after, say, an engine fire.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
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