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garpd
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Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:27 am

I read an article today in the local rag, that Scientist can now prove Dolphins, Whales and other Cetaceans have a sense of self awareness, consciousness and individuality. They are also highly intelligent. Humans have the same qualities and it is proposed we extend the same rights we enjoy, to Cetaceans.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wil...because-of-their-intelligence.html
For me, this is a step in the right direction. Long has my gut instinct told me Dolphins and Whales are far, far more intelligent than commonly believed. I’m glad research is now proving this correct.

Of course, giving Cetaceans their one set of “Human” rights would mean they could no longer be held in captivity, paraded on show or removed from their natural environment. Personally, I do not have a problem with that.
And I am sure, given the choice; some may even choose stick around and perform for us. All we need to do is give them the choice. This would mean facilities for Dolphin/Whale shows would be limited in location by their proximity to the sea. A canal or natural waterway would need to be used to allow the animals to come and go as they please. I am confident that many dolphins will choose to perform; it appears as though they derive pleasure from it just as we humans do.

More importantly, it we would need to stop all whaling and slaughter of Cetaceans.
The Japanese still engage in whaling and have a tradition of driving tens of thousands of dolphins into small coves each year and senselessly slaughtering them. Most die slow, agonising deaths, squeeling.
I once, long ago, saw a documentary on such an activity on an island, Taji or some such, and the screams of pain from those poor dolphins still haunt me.
Apparently similar events take place in the Faroe Islands too.
So, what do others think on this? Are they smart? Are they self aware? If they are, should we grant them the same level of respect and rights a human enjoys? I think so
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Asturias
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:04 pm

Quoting garpd (Thread starter):
So, what do others think on this? Are they smart? Are they self aware? If they are, should we grant them the same level of respect and rights a human enjoys? I think so

My bar for considering an animal smart is quite high, so no I can't say that I'd consider cetaceans to be smart. They have a limited intelligence like so many other mammals, that I can recognize.

Whether they are self-aware is a very philosophical question. I don't know if they are, nor have I seen any sign that they are. They feel pain, sadness and fear, no doubt. Most mammals do.

asturias
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connies4ever
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:28 pm

Quoting garpd (Thread starter):
More importantly, it we would need to stop all whaling and slaughter of Cetaceans.

Try selling that to the Japanese/Taiwanese/Filipinos, etc.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 1):
Whether they are self-aware is a very philosophical question. I don't know if they are, nor have I seen any sign that they are.

The fact that we can communicate with them I believe seals the deal.

But if we're going to grant them rights, I'd say give them the vote as well.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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Asturias
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 2):
The fact that we can communicate with them I believe seals the deal.

If that's one's definition of being self-aware, then yes. My definition is more stringent and that's why I mentioned that I perceived this as a philosophical question.

One could argue, and many have, that dogs, cats, monkeys, apes, pigs and more can communicate to one degree or another - indicating mood, desire, hunger, fear etc., solve basic mechanical problems and so on.

My view of being self-aware is to realize that one is an individual, that one is a part of a larger community, that one is a part of a world and that one thinks about thinking.

Instinct and basic intelligence is not self-awareness in my book.

asturias
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slider
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 2):
The fact that we can communicate with them I believe seals the deal.

I can communicate with a two-toed tree sloth too, but it's dumber than a bag of rocks.

This may be the most idiotic idea ever proposed. At least for today. Cetaceans human rights....

/stop the world
 
photopilot
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
This may be the most idiotic idea ever proposed. At least for today. Cetaceans human rights....

Not "may be" the most idiotic idea.... It bloody well IS the most idiotic idea to come out. When a whale/dolphin etc, can put their flipper on the bible and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth... well then maybe we can talk about "rights".

However, humans as the high-level specis on this planet should show care and concern to the lower-order species but at no time should this ever become "rights" of that lower-species.
 
mt99
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:46 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 5):
Not "may be" the most idiotic idea.... It bloody well IS the most idiotic idea to come out. When a whale/dolphin etc, can put their flipper on the bible and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth... well then maybe we can talk about "rights".

Good call! So i guess that stop the whole argument of human-animal marriages as a result of gay marriages.
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dc9northwest
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:40 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 5):
It bloody well IS the most idiotic idea to come out. When a whale/dolphin etc, can put their flipper on the bible and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth...

Why on the Bible? Are whales McCarthyists fighting against the Red threat?

When humans don't have their basic rights respected in many places in the world... maybe the rights of dolphins should still take a back seat to our problems. I don't agree with whaling, etc, but most of these animals are still somewhat more free than humans... They don't need visas to travel across the globe. They aren't being repressed by their governments. Female whales aren't getting raped by soldiers.

Before giving dolphins human rights, how about we give humans human rights?!
 
NoUFO
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:48 am

What we need is a better protection of various animals, be it cetaceans or great apes.
I support the right to arm bears
 
connies4ever
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:24 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 6):
Good call! So i guess that stop the whole argument of human-animal marriages as a result of gay marriages.

Before a 1927 Supreme Court ruling (in Canada) women were not recognized as "persons". So what were marriages prior to that? Human - thing ? Inter-species ?

I'm not saying giving animals rights is necessarily the way to go, but there's a couple of things we all need to consider:
- animals are much smarter than we think they are - typical human arrogance
- we should treat them with a little more respect
- more and more I am thinking "If I want a snack, why should an animal have to die ?"

For some insight on animal intelligence, go to your library and ask for "Alex and Me" by Irene Pepperberg. It will blow your mind.
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speedygonzales
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:03 am

If whales really were smart, they wouldn't taste so good  
Ignorance kills. :tombstone:
 
PPVRA
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:35 am

Don't get me wrong, I want to save the whales too, but this is just stupid. Sounds like just another gimmick to go after whaling nations.

[Edited 2012-02-22 02:43:06]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
steman
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:17 am

Dolphins are the second most intelligent species on Earth.
Humans are the third.
 
Klaus
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:20 pm

I don't think intelligence should be the only criterion there (and human rights obviously don't apply to any other species anyway).

I would say the relevant result here is that the age-old fiction that we could treat animals as badly as we wanted since they didn't really feel pain and suffering like we do is getting less and less believable the more we learn about their real behaviours and emotions.

Pigs and cows are also far less "stupid" than we'd like to think of them.

I'd say while we still remain omnivores who need to eat animals at least to some degree and at least as far as alternatives are unavailable or impractical, this result is another argument for keeping animal suffering to an absolute minimum, which excludes the killing of whales (with the possible exception of some indigenous arctic tribes), unethically close confinement of wild animals and most of the industrial animal "production" where cutting costs sometimes literally to the bone is the primary concern.

Eating meat just occasionally and being ready to pay a little more for more humane production of eggs and milk can help making positive changes, both to the conditions animals are kept in and to our environmental impact overall.

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 10):
If whales really were smart, they wouldn't taste so good

Slippery slope – some people claim that humans taste pretty good, too. So what now?   

Quoting steman (Reply 12):
Dolphins are the second most intelligent species on Earth.
Humans are the third.

Still difficult to imagine why they paid to recreate cats again on the second round, though…!   
 
connies4ever
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:08 pm

Quoting steman (Reply 12):
Dolphins are the second most intelligent species on Earth.
Humans are the third.

That's because dogs are first !   
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 14):
That's because dogs are first !   

Clearly cats are smarter than dogs. No discussion. Just look at their toilet habits.

You've opened a can of worms now... Even worse than A vs B 
 
connies4ever
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 15):
Clearly cats are smarter than dogs. No discussion. Just look at their toilet habits.

You've opened a can of worms now... Even worse than A vs B

Guard cat, seeing eye cat, herding cat. Not going to happen. Cats are interesting creatures, but basically single purpose. Dogs, like humans, are generalists, and well socialized. That's why we get along well.

There's a saying in Hollywood: "If you're shooting a movie and need twelve cat tricks, you need twelve trained cats. If you need twelve dog tricks, get one good dog."  
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:55 pm

I'm getting very sick of these whole animal-loving extremist movements that seem to be more and more prominent nowadays. Sure, I'm against the gratuitous abuse of of animals, but that's it. A lot of people are taking it too far. I'm getting sick of those overly dramatic commercials from SPCA every time I see that commercial I want to vomit.

Animals are animals. And while we are too strictly speaking, I find it rather insulting to us humans that we bring them up to our level, and other groups put us down to their level. It's pathetic.

Quoting garpd (Thread starter):
Humans have the same qualities and it is proposed we extend the same rights we enjoy, to Cetaceans


I'm at loss at the level of idiocy of this proposal.
 
mt99
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 15):
Clearly cats are smarter than dogs. No discussion. Just look at their toilet habits.

What cats clean themselves, dog have someone esle to wipe thier butts. Who is really smarter?

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 17):
I'm getting very sick of these whole animal-loving extremist movements that seem to be more and more prominent nowadays. Sure, I'm against the gratuitous abuse of of animals, but that's it. A lot of people are taking it too far. I'm getting sick of those overly dramatic commercials from SPCA every time I see that commercial I want to vomit.
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 17):
I'm at loss at the level of idiocy of this proposal.

Stop using cute animal pictures then!
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 18):
Stop using cute animal pictures then!

That polar bear agrees with my sentiments 
 
connies4ever
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:51 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 18):
What cats clean themselves, dog have someone esle to wipe thier butts. Who is really smarter?

Only dogs with hammerhoids.  
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 18):
What cats clean themselves, dog have someone esle to wipe thier butts. Who is really smarter?

To be honest I don't really care who is smarter, I was just making a point that you simply cannot rank animals by intelligence.

Dogs, however, are much less clean than cats. I like dogs too, but I don't want to own a dog.

Having a dog is like getting married. Having a cat is like having an affair.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 16):
Guard cat, seeing eye cat, herding cat. Not going to happen. Cats are interesting creatures, but basically single purpose. Dogs, like humans, are generalists, and well socialized. That's why we get along well.

There's a saying in Hollywood: "If you're shooting a movie and need twelve cat tricks, you need twelve trained cats. If you need twelve dog tricks, get one good dog."  

Hehe, well, you know what they say:

Cats look at us as if we're their slaves. Dogs look at us as if we're their masters. Only the pigs treat us as equals.

So why should cats even want to do tricks? It's so beneath them. I'm surprised you can train cats at all.

Dogs will do anything to get a treat, whereas cats tell you, in no uncertain terms, to f*** off and leave them alone.

Knowing humans, I think that about proves cats are smarter.

(Please take this as a joke--I really don't think we can compare the two species like that!)
 
connies4ever
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:43 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 21):
Having a dog is like getting married. Having a cat is like having an affair.

I'd agree that having a dog is like getting married. Life-long commitment. Having a cat is a relationship that lasts as long as its' useful for the cat.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 21):
Cats look at us as if we're their slaves. Dogs look at us as if we're their masters. Only the pigs treat us as equals.

If they were bigger, a cats' gaze would be that we're dinner. Dogs look at us like we're friends (i.e., members of the same pack). As for pigs, no experience there, except for maybe 1 or 2 dates. Perhaps you could enlighten us.  
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
smittyone
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
I'd say while we still remain omnivores who need to eat animals at least to some degree

I went vegetarian for awhile, and I think it would be possible for the entire human race to eat a plant-based diet...and I bet it would be a better use of natural resources than raising animals and we'd all be a lot healthier.* It's just too much of a pain in the ass.

* This coming from the guy who just ate an Angus Deluxe burger from McDonalds   



Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 21):
Dogs, however, are much less clean than cats. I like dogs too, but I don't want to own a dog.

I'm not 100% sure this is true (I have a dog and a cat).

The cat steps in the litter box, then licks her feet, then licks me. Nasty. The dog eats rabbit poop, licks his privates, then licks me. Nasty. So I think it's a draw, but the cat makes it 'look' cleaner at least LOL.
 
Klaus
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:13 am

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 23):
I went vegetarian for awhile, and I think it would be possible for the entire human race to eat a plant-based diet...and I bet it would be a better use of natural resources than raising animals and we'd all be a lot healthier.* It's just too much of a pain in the ass.

A vegan diet is difficult to maintain and at least potentially hazardous. But living mostly as a vegetarian (with eggs, milk products and relatively little meat) is not difficult and does indeed make a major difference in terms of your environmental impact, especially when you're buying organic food when possible.
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:57 am

Quoting steman (Reply 12):
Dolphins are the second most intelligent species on Earth.
Humans are the third.

  

So long, and thanks for all the fish.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:15 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 22):
If they were bigger, a cats' gaze would be that we're dinner. Dogs look at us like we're friends (i.e., members of the same pack). As for pigs, no experience there, except for maybe 1 or 2 dates. Perhaps you could enlighten us.  

Hilarious. I don't have much dating experience myself, but I can say one thing. The pigs are the politicians of the animal world. They always wallow around in mud 

In fact I do think that humans and dogs are pretty similar animals---we've bred them this way for a reason.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 22):
I'd agree that having a dog is like getting married. Life-long commitment. Having a cat is a relationship that lasts as long as its' useful for the cat.

Usually lasts pretty long for a cat--free food, no need to run if they don't want to--no wonder 50% of household cats in the US are obese. LOL.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 23):
The cat steps in the litter box, then licks her feet, then licks me. Nasty. The dog eats rabbit poop, licks his privates, then licks me. Nasty. So I think it's a draw, but the cat makes it 'look' cleaner at least LOL.

I guess you're right there... But I've witnessed a dog eating the excrement of another dog... Haven't seen that with cats... and let's just say that while I really liked that dog, it did put me off dogs for a while.  

And a little joke:
Q: What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic, and a dyslexic?
A: Someone who can't get to sleep while pondering the existence of Dog.
 
ATTart
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:38 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 22):

If they were bigger, a cats' gaze would be that we're dinner.

Here, is a pic of one of my cats, she is a F1 Savannah.

My F1 Savannah Girl


Also, this is a pic of my Serval boy Sinatra when he was just 6 months of age.





[Edited 2012-02-22 19:49:13]
Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:53 am

Quoting ATTart (Reply 27):
Here, is a pic of one of my cats, she is a F1 Savannah.

I find this breed of cats amazingly awesome! How big is she?

Quoting ATTart (Reply 27):
Also, this is a pic of my Serval boy Sinatra when he was just 6 months of age.

What a massive cat!
 
ATTart
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:06 am

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 28):

I find this breed of cats amazingly awesome! How big is she?

Thank you, I love this breed. She weighs in at 25 lbs or 11.3 kg.

[Edited 2012-02-22 21:03:03]
Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
 
18161
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:37 am

If human rights is based on intelligence, I wonder how much of humans would qualify.
Human rights is for Human beings and animal rights is for animals. I agree that animals should be treated properly.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:17 pm

Quoting ATTart (Reply 27):
Also, this is a pic of my Serval boy Sinatra when he was just 6 months of age.

Actually, even as a dog person, I find servals to be pretty interesting. The long legs seem clearly to be evolved (dare I use that word ?) for long loping runs. ?? A question: do you have to leash/tether it when outside ? Otherwise it might pose a threat to other animals in the area ? Pretty good looking beast, actually.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
ATTart
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 31):
Actually, even as a dog person, I find servals to be pretty interesting. The long legs seem clearly to be evolved (dare I use that word ?) for long loping runs. ?? A question: do you have to leash/tether it when outside ? Otherwise it might pose a threat to other animals in the area ? Pretty good looking beast, actually.

Thank you. I like both dogs and cats.. Oh yea, when we go out for a walk or a run, he is on a leash and harness.

It took almost 5 years of preparation, before I brought him into my life. I wanted to learn has much as I could about Servals, have the proper documents and ect. Also that he would have the proper environment and living conditions.
Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
 
Mir
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:12 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 5):
When a whale/dolphin etc, can put their flipper on the bible and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth... well then maybe we can talk about "rights".

To be fair, there are people who can't put their hand on a bible and then tell the truth - they're called politicians. And they still have rights. More rights than the rest of us, actually.

-Mir
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hOMSaR
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:02 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 33):
Quoting photopilot (Reply 5):
When a whale/dolphin etc, can put their flipper on the bible and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth... well then maybe we can talk about "rights".

To be fair, there are people who can't put their hand on a bible and then tell the truth - they're called politicians. And they still have rights. More rights than the rest of us, actually.

What about people who have no hands? They can't put their hand on a bible, so does that mean they don't have rights?


(and maybe they don't have lefts either, depending on the nature of the disability    )
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
cmf
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:15 am

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 21):
Having a dog is like getting married. Having a cat is like having an affair.

Having a cat is like having a teenager. Even so I like cats, and dogs.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
BOStonsox
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:28 am

Human rights is way too much. Elephants are almost, if not as, smart as cetaceans. And those go behind the great apes. So if we give human rights to one, we have to give them to the others. Still, if intelligence is a reason not to kill them, then that should be used as an argument to stop them from being killed.
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Jet-lagged
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:40 pm

This is a pretty good idea.

Don't give them the right to vote, but why not the right to life.

As a species we've advanced where we see the ethical line - slavery, minority rights, woman's rights, etc - so I believe this is simply further progression.

The right to life: whales, dolphins, porpoises, and apes
The right not to be abused: pretty much every species (I can't think of a need for legally condoned abuse anywhere)

Unfortunately for those animals which constitute an huge portion of our protein intake (cows, chickens, pigs, and the like) they will, for practical purposes, continue to be raised and killed for food. They should be treated humanely in the process.

The right to life for whales, dolphins, and apes. The impact on humans would be nearly zero for almost everyone on the planet, and for those whose lives would be impacted their amount of inconvenience is small compared to the price the dead pay.

I'd suggest yes, give it to them, and spend time arguing and agreeing on complicated moral conundrums.
 
Virginblue4
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:12 pm

Quoting garpd (Thread starter):
For me, this is a step in the right direction. Long has my gut instinct told me Dolphins and Whales are far, far more intelligent than commonly believed. I’m glad research is now proving this correct.

I 100% agree with you here.

I do believe they are a far more intelligent that what we humans believe.

Anyway, sounds like a great idea to me!
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:37 am

HUMAN rights for ANIMALS? Does anyone else sense the whole absurdity of such proposal?
 
Geezer
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RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:44 am

I don't see how I can avoid chiming in when the subject being discussed is dogs and cats; inasmuch as we have 3 dogs, 2 cats, and 1 bird.

When I first met Miss Arlie 10 years ago, she had 2 dogs; both dogs are still here, plus Blackie, my big old black Lab who followed me home about 3-4 yrs ago is still here also.

My no.1 cat, Bootsie has lived with me for a long time; since about 1996; Our little girl cat, Miss Kitty Cat, showed up on the front porch about 3 years ago, at 4 AM; the reason I know, I had taken Peabody, our little Rat Terrier outside to "do his business" and I felt something brush my leg; it was a week old grey kitten; I'm sure she wandered up the hill from the village; a few days later, I took her inside one day, and for no apparent reason, she suddenly tried to bite my thumb off;

Miss Arlie was ready to "pull the plug" on her; we got her a rabies shot, me a tetnus shot, and the Vet said keep her confined for a week; by then, we'll know if you have any problem. She spent the entire week in a nylon play pen, with a plywood lid on top; was on her best behavior, so we kept her; she has now grown into a magnificent cat; extremely sweet and lovable, except SHE likes to sleep ON TOP of the covers, while Bootsie prefers to sleep UNDER the covers, right next to my chest. He watches me 24-7; if I go Into in the bathroom, he follows me, or else waits by the door til I come out;

When I go to the big bath room to shower, little Miss Kitty Cat follows me, and sits by the sliding glass doors and watches;
any time I go to Ohio for a few days, Bootsie stays by the front door till I get back.

IMHO, the controversy about "which is smarter", dogs or cats, really has no meaningful answer; they are both just as smart as they need to be. Cats probably have a bit more problem finding a good home, but it has nothing to do with intelligence; there are simply far more female cats getting "involved" with tom cats, so there are far more kittens needing good homes; and who's fault do you suppose that is ? Why, irresponsible humans who are too "tight" to have their female cats "fixed"; ( The same thing can be said about dogs as well of course. )

Our other "outside" dog, Steamer, is the off-spring of a Border Collie mother who had a "one night stand" with a coyote;
(you would never know there's anything wild about her though) Our other "pet" is Mort; we have a bit of a mix-up concerning Mort; when we first got him / her, we bought 2 blue parakeets; named them Mort and Mindy; a few years later, we found that we had the name "backwards"; Mort was a female, and Mindy was a Male; then Mindy "passed on".......we got another male, after a year, HE passed on; Mort just seems to be a longer lived bird than the others; but I still have trouble remembering which gender he/she is; not that it makes any difference; Mort spends all her time in her cage, hanging at the top of the doorway into the front room, which is the only spot in the house that Miss Kitty can't get to.

One other thing that most people never seem to take into consideration when wondering about the old "which is smarter" argument............just like people, all dogs and cats are individuals; and there are huge differences between individual dogs, and individual cats; and it may or may not hinge around intelligence, but rather individual behavior; whether or not behavior is a function of intelligence or not, I really have no idea, but there really are huge differences from one individual to another. Of the two, I'm convinced that cats have much better memories. I can't imagine living without both.

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
Posts: 8432
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:19 am

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 10):
If whales really were smart, they wouldn't taste so good

so true. Whale is delicious.

The whales can have the 'human' rights of the environmentals that thought that up and the rights of those sea shepherd terrorists. They could have a campaign "Sign your rights away - Give them to a whale"

10000 gullable fools = 10000 more whales with "rights", then sell the hunting rights to the japanese so they can bag their quota of hippies...
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
smittyone
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 am

RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:51 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 26):
I guess you're right there... But I've witnessed a dog eating the excrement of another dog... Haven't seen that with cats... and let's just say that while I really liked that dog, it did put me off dogs for a while.

LOL, at least it wasn't his own. That would be more disturbing to me for some reason.


On the topic, many of the endangered creatures listed already have laws or treaties in place to protect them...enforcement is the problem.

Much like how people supposedly have 'human rights', but genocide keeps happening.

So before we start offering human rights to cetaceans we should probably establish that we can guarantee the protections they currently have.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4144
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:37 pm

Ridiculous ideas like this are exactly why normal people don't take environmentalists and animal rights activists seriously. No animal can ever have human rights. Period.
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 43):
Ridiculous ideas like this are exactly why normal people don't take environmentalists and animal rights activists seriously. No animal can ever have human rights. Period.

Amen brotha. This whole animal rights movement is going way too far.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6317
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 44):
This whole animal rights movement is going way too far.

I would not blame it just on the environmentalists. I know "pet lovers" who are willing to pay without blink of an eye thousands CZK for their freaking dog to get a CT, cytostatics and god know what else yet their own grandma is struggling to meet ends with a pathetically low pension.
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:56 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 9):
- more and more I am thinking "If I want a snack, why should an animal have to die ?"

It's called the food chain. The animal, on the food chain below me, that I just had for lunch did the same thing to another animal below it on the food chain. Nothing wrong with that, it's how every species survives.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
photopilot
Posts: 3101
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:16 am

RE: Give Cetaceans Human Rights?

Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:41 pm

Read this.... shake your head.... and tell me that some of the "Animal Rights" Activists need to get a reality check.

"Woman who compared animal-welfare work to liberation of concentration camps planned murder-for-hire of random fur-wearer, authorities say........."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...arer-authorities-article-1.1027384

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