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stasisLAX
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General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:39 pm

General Motors will acquire a $125 million, 7 percent share in French automaker PSA Peugeot Citroen that will serve as the impetus for a wide-ranging alliance, the two automakers announced today to a shocked automotive press in New York City. The move is designed to help stem operating losses that both companies are incurring as a result of increased competition and a costly labor market. As a result of this "alliance", around 2016, they will share subcompact, midsize and crossover/SUV platforms that will save a combined $2 billion annually within five years. GM is likely to look to PSA primarily for its small car architecture, which would be most beneficial to its operations outside of North American (primarily meaning Europe and China). PSA, meanwhile, has long struggled to offer competitive midsize cars and crossovers, meaning it will likely look to use GM’s Epsilon II midsize (the current Insignia, Lacrosse, Regal, and Malibu platform) and Theta crossover architecture (which underpins the current Chevy Traverse, GMC Acadia, Buick Enclave, and (soon) the next-generation Cadillac Escalade).GM will also gain access to PSA’s Gefco logistics division, which it says will help it better serve GM's dealership sales and parts network in Europe and Russia.

GM's CEO was adamant that this is not a merger with PSA, but an "product alliance". GM's Opel division has lost a tremendous amount of money on its operations over the past ten years, and GM seems to be looking for other product partners as its Opel and Vauxhall divisions are in extremely poor financial condition. Opel lost $747 million (USD) alone last year, and is in the process of closing two more assembly plants - one in Germany, and another in the UK. Peugeot in also bleeding a flood of red ink - and is desperate to broaden its model line-up with new platforms, thus today's unexpected announcement.

Source: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...on-in-annual-savings-from-alliance

[Edited 2012-02-29 15:40:25]
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DfwRevolution
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
General Motors will acquire a $125 million, 7 percent share in French automaker PSA Peugeot Citroen that will serve as the impetus for a wide-ranging alliance, the two automakers announced today to a shocked automotive press in New York City.

If GM has cash burning a hole in their pockets, they could start by repaying the American taxpayer for the billions still held by the U.S. Treasury...  
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stasisLAX
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:52 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 1):
If GM has cash burning a hole in their pockets

If GM in North America and China had money to burn, it would be Opel and Vauxhall divisions burning all the profits. GM needs to divest itself of Opel, and definitely Vauxhall. The European divisions losses are threatening to put GM (as a whole) back into bankruptcy. Opel has only had one profitable year (2006) in the past 12 years!

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012...M-Peugeot.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

[Edited 2012-02-29 15:57:58]
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Ken777
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:05 am

I haven't seen anything on Peugeot in years, but back in the 50s' there were some with a pretty good reputation - even in Oklahoma. Citroen was simply an odd car company back then - but unique.

Today I can see working together to jointly share the development costs of a new platform and, to some degree, to simplify as many parts as possible.

As for Opel, I believe GM screwed them up, just like they screwed up Saturn. GM should focus on maximizing the design talent they have in various countries, from Germany to Australia. They also need to look at all they ways they screwed their various brands, especially Saturn.

THe funny part about Saturn is that they probably could have been pretty profitable if GM had not kept them from being independent and selling via the ex-Saturn Dealers. Makes you rethink just how much of a loss Opel actually is.
 
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zckls04
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:33 am

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 1):
If GM has cash burning a hole in their pockets, they could start by repaying the American taxpayer for the billions still held by the U.S. Treasury...  

In one sense I agree, but at the same time as a taxpayer I'd rather they made a good strategic business decision in the short term to ensure a greater future return to the taxpayer. After all, $125m is peanuts compared to how much the bailout cost.

Either way, I hope we see more Citroens over here. I've always had a soft spot for them. Peugeot not so much....
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stasisLAX
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:59 am

According to Automotive News, the cost of the 7 percent stake is approximately $400 million, not $125 million USD. Sorry, I pulled the wrong dollar amount from the article in the opening post. To quote the article:

"The creation of a global purchasing joint venture for the sourcing of commodities, components and other goods and services from suppliers with combined annual purchasing volumes of approximately $125 billion."
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
thegreatRDU
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:35 am

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 1):

If GM has cash burning a hole in their pockets, they could start by repaying the American taxpayer for the billions still held by the U.S. Treasury...

? No need...the bailouts were a "success"!!!
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czbbflier
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:26 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 3):
As for Opel, I believe GM screwed them up, just like they screwed up Saturn.
Don't even get me started over Saab.

I don't know. I so want to see French cars sold in North America just like they are sold absolutely everywhere else in the world but it seems to me a partnership with GM is the kiss of death for European companies.

Fortunately, the French government would not allow GM to suck the life-blood, vitality and capital out of PSA after 'bland-ifying' its range of cars to suit the North American market..

Maybe, just maybe, Renault will respond by stepping up and adding their lines into Nissan dealerships with its own models- modified for the North American regulators, of course.  

Hmmmm. Let the games begin.
 
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garpd
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:49 am

So long as it remains only 7%, then Peugeot-Citroen should be ok.
GM killed Saab and are doing a pretty good job of doing the same with Opel/Vauxhall.

Peugeot and Citroen cars are some of the best on our roads. Cheap, reliable and very popular.
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oldeuropean
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:16 am

Quoting garpd (Reply 8):
Peugeot and Citroen cars are some of the best on our roads. Cheap, reliable and very popular.

Yep!
Reliable   
very popular   

and good looking and good selling   
(but cheap? I would say this was 30 years ago.)

GM must dream about building such cars.

[Edited 2012-03-01 00:18:52]

[Edited 2012-03-01 00:19:38]
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racko
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:28 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 2):
GM needs to divest itself of Opel, and definitely Vauxhall.

They could have two years ago. There were buyers lined up, Opel wanted to free themselves from GM, the German government was supportive...GM decided to keep Opel and continue to mess them up.
 
ltbewr
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:18 pm

Do those that are involved in this deal for GM realize that PSA does business in Iran, Cuba and other countries that the USA has a bad relationship with? PSA still has an office in the USA (in New Jersey) for parts sales, occasionally I have seen a Peugeot on the road here with Manufacturers' plates.

I think where you might see the main affects of the GM deal with PSA will be in some markets, especially in South America and Africa where GM is weak. I am quite sure Fiat is amused (GM had a $1B stake in Fiat until about 5 years ago).
 
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:28 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
I am quite sure Fiat is amused (GM had a $1B stake in Fiat until about 5 years ago).

That was mostly their interest in the shared small platform (Opel Corsa/Fiat Punto/Alfa Mito) and Fiat's multijet diesel technology that made their way throughout GM's euro lineup (Opel/Vauxhall, Saab and the awful Caddy BTS).
 
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:47 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 10):
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 2):
GM needs to divest itself of Opel, and definitely Vauxhall.

They could have two years ago. There were buyers lined up, Opel wanted to free themselves from GM, the German government was supportive...GM decided to keep Opel and continue to mess them up.

GM would rather kill Opel, Saab and Vauxhall than to have them as competitors under new management.

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JJJ
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
GM would rather kill Opel, Saab and Vauxhall than to have them as competitors under new management.

Considering that Chevy is a pretty minor player in Europe and Saab is even smaller in the US I don't think it should worry them that much.

It's probably more of an image issue.
 
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 7):
I so want to see French cars sold in North America

Since Italy is getting a foothold these days there is a chance for the Peugeot in the future. I have a feeling, however, that GM will fight that big time.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 7):
modified for the North American regulators,

This is something that has bugged me for years. All car companies know what is required in various countries. WHy don't they design the core car to be easily (and cheaply) modified? Basically you're talking about RHD & LHD versions.

Quoting racko (Reply 10):
Opel wanted to free themselves from GM, the German government was supportive...GM decided to keep Opel and continue to mess them up.

I believe Opel was looking at the Saturn dealers who were getting the shaft from GM. Both Opel and those dealers would have done well in that situation.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
GM would rather kill Opel, Saab and Vauxhall than to have them as competitors under new management

Ain't that the truth. Opel might well survive as an in depend company if GM gets stupid.
 
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 15):
Since Italy is getting a foothold these days there is a chance for the Peugeot in the future.

What does Italy have to do with anything? Peugeot is French.
 
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Aesma
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:02 pm

I don't know what to think about this. I'd like to see the return of a RWD Peugeot, especially a coupé. The current RCZ is good looking, but it is FWD :



I'm sure some here would appreciate the coming in the US of the Peugeot 3008 HYbrid4, an ugly SUV/CUV with a diesel driving the FWD and electric driving the RWD.
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Polot
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:13 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 12):
That was mostly their interest in the shared small platform (Opel Corsa/Fiat Punto/Alfa Mito) and Fiat's multijet diesel technology that made their way throughout GM's euro lineup (Opel/Vauxhall, Saab and the awful Caddy BTS).

Lets also not forgot Fiat was a basket case back then, GM (rightly) was doing everything it can to get out of its deal with Fiat and avoid having to buy the company. They ended up paying $2 billion to get out of the relationship and avoid taking over the company which was a possibility due to their contract. Even today, in a somewhat ironic twist, it is actually Chrysler that is now fueling most of the Fiat groups current profits.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 15):
This is something that has bugged me for years. All car companies know what is required in various countries. WHy don't they design the core car to be easily (and cheaply) modified? Basically you're talking about RHD & LHD versions.

Because if it is designed to be cheaply modified then it looks like crap. If you want a nice, cohesive, fluid design then it costs more money to convert between LHD and RHD. More modification than that is necessary too. As Europe and the US have different crash standards/tests, they have to be modified to perform well in both markets (or possibly poorly in one market if they go the cheap route. As no French company has sold a car in North America for over 20 years it made no sense for them to spend money on their recent designs to conform to US regulation.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
GM would rather kill Opel, Saab and Vauxhall than to have them as competitors under new management.

  

Competitors (usually from Russia or China) do NOT want to buy Vauxhall/Opel/Saab from GM for their assembly plants and other fixed capital equipment. The prospective buyers want access to GM's technology licenses/intellectual property and GM would be VERY foolish to agree to give those items up in a sale of Opel. Otherwise, Opel has VERY little value to ANY prospective buyer, especially because of the extremely high labor costs (and the labor unions).

The best move for GM may be to completely jettison Opel and Vauxhall brands, and replace them with the Chevrolet brand - as is already under consideration by GM senior management. GM cannot go back into bankruptcy, especially a backruptcy primarily caused by under-performing foreign divisions. In my opinion, Australia's Holden is the next GM brand on the chopping block, unfortunately.
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Aesma
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:12 am

Yeah, it's always a shame to see classic (or even new, like Porsche) cars ruined by ugly bumpers added to fit some US rule. Seeing those bumpers, there is no way they offer anything security wise, they're probably caused by a stupid rule from the 60's that nobody cares to change.
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Pyrex
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:07 am

What a shame. Have always liked Peugeots and particularly Citroens (would love to have a DS-19 or 2CV, and would like to buy a big Citroen one day) but now that they have tied the knot with the biggest sham in 100 years of U.S. bankruptcy law I guess they are out of the question. Guess I will have to go with that BMW after all...
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czbbflier
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:31 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 15):
This is something that has bugged me for years. All car companies know what is required in various countries. WHy don't they design the core car to be easily (and cheaply) modified?

Ken, mah friend, yer preaching' tuh thuh kwire.

Sadly, there is such a bias against French... anything in the United States (except wine and perfume) that there really is no point in trying to compete. That bias goes all the way up into the regulations. I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't matter what Renault or PSA P-C did it wouldn't be good enough.

But it's nice to dream!

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
Yeah, it's always a shame to see classic (or even new, like Porsche) cars ruined by ugly bumpers added to fit some US rule. Seeing those bumpers, there is no way they offer anything security wise, they're probably caused by a stupid rule from the 60's that nobody cares to change.

IIRC, it had to do with the height of the bumpers, that French cars had a nasty habit of submarining under the North American boxes. That meant (especially for the super-sleak Citroen DS with it's super-raked front and variable height suspension) that the design of the car from the frame out to the body did not conform to American standards. That dates back the 1970s.

Now, AFAIAC, it just boils down to pig-headedness. The Americans won't back down, and the French refuse to conform when what they produce is clearly world-class for the rest of the world.

And numbers. Competitors can undercut a French manufacturer, sadly.
And styling. North American car buyers are some of the most unsophisticated in the world.

Like I say though... you can dream!
 
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Polot
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:54 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
Yeah, it's always a shame to see classic (or even new, like Porsche) cars ruined by ugly bumpers added to fit some US rule. Seeing those bumpers, there is no way they offer anything security wise, they're probably caused by a stupid rule from the 60's that nobody cares to change.
Quoting czbbflier (Reply 22):

IIRC, it had to do with the height of the bumpers, that French cars had a nasty habit of submarining under the North American boxes. That meant (especially for the super-sleak Citroen DS with it's super-raked front and variable height suspension) that the design of the car from the frame out to the body did not conform to American standards. That dates back the 1970s.

It goes both ways though...you can thank Europe's pedestrian safety standards for the high and blunt noses that all cars have now a days.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 22):
Sadly, there is such a bias against French... anything in the United States (except wine and perfume) that there really is no point in trying to compete. That bias goes all the way up into the regulations. I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't matter what Renault or PSA P-C did it wouldn't be good enough.

No, it is because the last cars they sold here were just god awful, even they would admit it, so nobody bought them and they left an unprofitable market.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 22):
Now, AFAIAC, it just boils down to pig-headedness. The Americans won't back down, and the French refuse to conform when what they produce is clearly world-class for the rest of the world.

Renault, Peugeot, and Citroen may make some nice cars, but by no means are they world class. People in Europe are not drooling or aspiring to own them, they can be rather pedestrian as cars go. Don't make the assumption that because it is European it is automatically better, sporty, or luxurious.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 22):
And numbers. Competitors can undercut a French manufacturer, sadly.
And styling. North American car buyers are some of the most unsophisticated in the world.

Europe is just as guilty of ugly and unsophisticated styling as North America and the rest of the world.
 
racko
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:31 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 19):
The best move for GM may be to completely jettison Opel and Vauxhall brands, and replace them with the Chevrolet brand - as is already under consideration by GM senior management.

If by "best move" you mean "worst move", you would be correct. Chevrolet has an almost comically bad reputation.

Add to that Opel/Vauxhall are seen as domestic brands in the #1 and #3 car markets in Europe, American brands don't do well (the only brand contesting Chevrolet for being the worst is...Chrysler) and the fact that by now even people not particularly interested in cars are annoyed by GM and such a move would be so incredibly stupid that you can almost expect GM to make it. Not before sending another executive who can't find Rüsselsheim on a map to run the show for 2 months though.
 
JJJ
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:45 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 19):
The prospective buyers want access to GM's technology licenses/intellectual property and GM would be VERY foolish to agree to give those items up in a sale of Opel. Otherwise, Opel has VERY little value to ANY prospective buyer, especially because of the extremely high labor costs (and the labor unions).

Don't forget it was Opel engineers who did the heavy lifting on the small and medium platforms of the group. The Cruze, Cobalt, Volt, Excelle, Lacrosse, Riviera, Regal etc. are all sitting on platforms designed by Opel.

There's a general feeling in Germany an independent Opel would do much better than as part of GM group, and that's the reason the original sale to Magna did not go through (i.e. GM needed their technical expertise to build competitive small and medium-sized cars).

Obviously, if all GM wants is build cheap cars, Opel is not the place, and the fact that GM central wants to push the Chevy brand doesn't help at all.
 
Ken777
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
The current RCZ is good looking, but it is FWD :

Nice car, but reminds me of a certain VW:

http://www.cartype.com/pics/3826/full/vw_karmann-ghia_rs1.jpg

Quoting Polot (Reply 18):
Because if it is designed to be cheaply modified then it looks like crap.

Not really. Everything from the basic lines on up can handle the dual sided drive. Corolla or Miata to MB's and BMWs.

Quoting Polot (Reply 18):
If you want a nice, cohesive, fluid design then it costs more money to convert between LHD and RHD.

Toyota can have an ambidextrous Corolla so it can be realistic to design for flipping between RHD & LHD. Or addressing other aspects. Just keep it under the hood and it can stay fluid.

Quoting Polot (Reply 18):
As no French company has sold a car in North America for over 20 years it made no sense for them to spend money on their recent designs to conform to US regulation.

While I don't have a lot of hope for Citroen in the US I think Peugeot could have done reasonably well. But the core issue would be to have addressed multi-country requirements. There might have been a chance for Peugeot when GM was closing Saturn down, leaving dealers with empty showrooms. Opportunity missed?

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 19):
The best move for GM may be to completely jettison Opel and Vauxhall brands, and replace them with the Chevrolet brand

I really am neutral on Vauxhall, but Opel has a lot of value to it, and some decent design people. Chevy is simply the cheapest brand for GM, with the best days maybe behind it. I still remember drooling on the '59 Impala convertible (white with a red interior) back in the days when I had to ride a bicycle to get to a dealership. I can also remember driving a rental in the late 80s - a real cheap ride. And I've driven a rental Cruze a few months ago. Better than the 80s, but not a car I would think about buying.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 19):
In my opinion, Australia's Holden is the next GM brand on the chopping block, unfortunately.

What a lot of companies don't really look at is the corporate overhead a "profitless subsidiary" consumers. How much GM corporate overhead does Holden pick for GM in Detroit? As long as that absorption exceeds any losses GM claims then out's worth keeping them around.

When I look at Holden it seems hard to believe the they cannot deliver a decent business. The market is small, but like Ford they can pull in engineering efforts from the US parent. The Aussie Dollar is pretty strong right now, which hurts exports, but that changes over time.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
Seeing those bumpers, there is no way they offer anything security wise, they're probably caused by a stupid rule from the 60's that nobody cares to change.

I can remember the bumpers on my '68 BMW 2002. The only thing they were good for was protective the car if it hit a baby carriage under 5 MPH. All 4 corners had been bumped in parking lots and it was clearly uneconomic to have them repaired as it would have only been a temporary fix - until the next parking lot.

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 22):
Sadly, there is such a bias against French... anything in the United States (except wine and perfume) that there really is no point in trying to compete.
 
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Polot
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
Not really. Everything from the basic lines on up can handle the dual sided drive. Corolla or Miata to MB's and BMWs.

I didn't say they couldn't. I was saying if you go the (very ) cheap route then the interior won't look as good, obviously most companies don't do that.

Besides the RHD/LHD drive issue is a moot point, the French drive on the same side as we do. It is the crash standards that differ and what is preventing them from currently selling their cars there. It costs a lot of money to modify an existing car to meet US standards if no provisions were made in the design (and vice versa with American cars and European standards). It costs money to make those provisions in the design (and can add weight, have effects on the styling etc), so the French automakers understandably have not been making them as they have been worrying more about fixing their own reliability/image/quality in the European market than reentering the US market.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
When I look at Holden it seems hard to believe the they cannot deliver a decent business. The market is small, but like Ford they can pull in engineering efforts from the US parent. The Aussie Dollar is pretty strong right now, which hurts exports, but that changes over time.

The big problem is that like in the US, as the gas prices have gone up the retail sales for the only truly "Holden" car (the Commodore and its derivatives), as oppose to another GM car with a Holden badge have been tanking. I think I read somewhere that most of the big RWD cars that they are making are going to fleets now.
 
mham001
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 21):
but now that they have tied the knot with the biggest sham in 100 years of U.S. bankruptcy law I guess they are out of the question.

Curious. Why does this bother you?

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 22):
IIRC, it had to do with the height of the bumpers, that French cars had a nasty habit of submarining under the North American boxes.

No, it had everything to do with selling junk in this market. Junk that would not have even competed with the early Korean imports.

Quoting garpd (Reply 8):
GM killed Saab and are doing a pretty good job of doing the same with Opel/Vauxhall.

Lets not rewrite history to fulfill our bias. Saab was a mess when GM bought them. At worst, they simply extended the agony.

I am interested in the Opel/Vauxhall story. What exactly have they been doing to kill those brands?
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:04 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 19):
The best move for GM may be to completely jettison Opel and Vauxhall brands, and replace them with the Chevrolet brand - as is already under consideration by GM senior management

That would be called abandoning the European market. Period. Do they really want to do that?
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:16 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 16):
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 15):
Since Italy is getting a foothold these days there is a chance for the Peugeot in the future.

What does Italy have to do with anything? Peugeot is French.

Fiat(from Italy) is setting a precedent by accessing US markets through Chrysler. Before long there'll be Fiat 500s buzzing around all over the place. Peugot/Citroen could do the same through GM, but there will probably have to be some badge-engineering first.
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Pyrex
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:12 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 28):
Curious. Why does this bother you?

Why does it bother me that the U.S. became just another Banana Republic by trampling over the rule of law, you mean?
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:45 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 28):
No, it had everything to do with selling junk in this market. Junk that would not have even competed with the early Korean imports.
Quoting Polot (Reply 23):
No, it is because the last cars they sold here were just god awful, even they would admit it, so nobody bought them and they left an unprofitable market.

Can't say I disagree... but the last wheeze was the Renault Alliance. A disaster on all counts. Built in America. Sold like lead balloons in France too.

We have certainly seen some improvements since then!  

However, that said, there are regulatory issues that must be resolved before the French automobile is sold on these shores.

Quoting Polot (Reply 23):
Renault, Peugeot, and Citroen may make some nice cars, but by no means are they world class. People in Europe are not drooling or aspiring to own them, they can be rather pedestrian as cars go. Don't make the assumption that because it is European it is automatically better, sporty, or luxurious.

Ah. No assumptions made here. My point is, as mediocre as you say they are, French cars are sold in every country in the world except the United States and Canada. That's what I meant by "world class".
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:52 am

GM isnt a good owner for any carbrand. Opel as a brand is struggling but if thats because of GM or Opel is hard tp say. But lets put it this way, when GM decided to move the leadership of GM Europe to Switzerland for tax reasons they lost all touch with reality and since then GM Europe hasnt produced any profits almost.

Peugeot is still 49% owned (voting rights) by the founding family. GM:s 7% will achieve nothing. A waste of money.

But cooperations are good. Peugeot has it with several other brands too. BMW for example. Reduces costs.

French cars are successfull all over the world. Safe and some slightly different design. But the main reason us Europeans dont drool over them is that they dont do the cars you droll about. Their market is family cars made for urbanites etc. I mean the compete with the golf, the corolla and such cars not with the big new Mercs, Jaguars or BMW:s.

For a second car a Peugeot is an excellent choice, cheap to operate, reliable and stylish.

IF GM reckons they can introduce Chevrolet to Europe they have serious issues at HQ in Detroit. Chevrolet has probably the worst reputation there is among cars. They wouldnt sell many of those no matter how much money they poured into marketing. If GM wants a part of the European market they need to figure out how Opel can become successfull.
GM:s current deal with the unions says they cant close plants etc until 2015 or if it was 2017 so they have sometime to ponder about it. Personally, Id dump Vauxhall and keep Opel. Opel is known in the UK so it wouldnt be a huge mess. id also roll out Opel worldwide because to me its a brand that easily can outcompete Chevrolet and Buick outside North America.
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:05 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 28):
I am interested in the Opel/Vauxhall story. What exactly have they been doing to kill those brands?

GM bought Opel somewhere back in the 1930s, so it is not exactly a new aquisition. Before Opel was already a traditional brand in Germany (started as a mechanical factory for bicycles in the 19th century, but switched to cars later around 1900).

Already two years ago designers and German staff at Opel complained that they could get Opel out of the red if US GM management would let them build the cars the European market demands. AFAIK they have been bringing in all the knowledge about building small cars within the GM system.

Now for GM management Opel is just a career stepping stone. They get sent to Rüsselsheim from Detroit to work there for a few years. They never catch the company culture (which in Europe is very different from the US) and are not interested in making any real improvements to the company.
These temporary managers try to earn browny points with the GM top management by improving the quarterly yields (share price etc.) mainly through cost cutting instead of making viable long time investments.
Then they try to get back to the Dtroit headquarters ASAP. There is simply no interest in Opel within GM´s top management.

IMO, if GM tops Opel, then they will effectively abandon the European market. American cars, except folr some collector´s items like Corvettes, don´t exactly have the best reputation around here. They fight the reputation of being too big, too much of gas guzzlers, bad service and spare parts availability and being of shoddy quality. Outside US military garrison towns (where imports by American soldiers end up on the second hand market) you´ll rarely see US made cars.

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zhiao
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:00 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 18):
As Europe and the US have different crash standards/tests, they have to be modified to perform well in both markets (or possibly poorly in one market if they go the cheap route.

Which regulatory regime is stricter?

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 22):
North American car buyers are some of the most unsophisticated in the world.

That's not what I see when I go to South Beach, Palm Beach, LA, etc. Some of the nicest collections I've ever seen.
 
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:01 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34):
IMO, if GM tops Opel, then they will effectively abandon the European market. American cars, except folr some collector´s items like Corvettes, don´t exactly have the best reputation around here. They fight the reputation of being too big, too much of gas guzzlers, bad service and spare parts availability and being of shoddy quality. Outside US military garrison towns (where imports by American soldiers end up on the second hand market) you´ll rarely see US made cars.

I think Ford has a good reputation in Europe, even though most of its cars are made within Europe. But then again, most German cars in the US are not made in Germany!
 
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:12 am

Quoting zhiao (Reply 36):
I think Ford has a good reputation in Europe, even though most of its cars are made within Europe.

Designed in and mostly made in Europe. I think the Mustang's available as a very limited import, but no US fords are volume sellers in Europe (or most other parts of the world?)

Chevy's a Korean brand, isn't it?
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:28 am

But it's still a US brand with a good reputation. And no, why would you export a car from the US when there are plenty of factories in Europe, even if we were to assume that both sides had exactly the same car market? Also, as we know in Europe the streets are much smaller so the larger US cars are impossible to sell in high volume. It's not that they are bad cars. For instance, the Ford Fusion, U.S. model, is a fine car that would do well in Europe along with the other Ford models. The current Ford Fusion in Europe is hideous.

When you think about it, no European made car is a volume seller in the US either.

[Edited 2012-03-11 17:33:01]
 
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:13 am

Quoting zhiao (Reply 38):
When you think about it, no European made car is a volume seller in the US either.

Exactly, which is why killing Opel and leaving DaewooChev seems an interesting decision. Killing Opel and partnering PSA for volume might be more logical for Europe apart for a volume dive for the bottom with Korean vehicles.

Euro Fords are overall pretty good, and the Taurus seems OK (maybe it will actually sell properly here in Oz when it doesn't compete against the Falcon).
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:29 am

Quoting zhiao (Reply 35):
Which regulatory regime is stricter?

I don't think one is particularly stricter than the other (in terms of overall crash safety, Europe generally has stricter lighting standards though for example), they are just different. As an example, the EuroNCAP has offset 40 mph front crash tests and a 31 mph side test, while the NHTSA has a 35 mph head on test and a 38.5 mph side test. And while they don't officially have to pass them, most automakers strive to do well on the IIHS test, which is a 40mph front offset test and 31 mph side test. I believe that Europe has stricter pedestrian safety requirements, but the US has stricter rollover requirements.

There are other variables that must be taken into account such as the shape/size/weight/positioning of the barrier, but I don't know all the details of those. If a car does well in one country it would probably do fine in another, they tweak them (sometimes requiring a slight cosmetic change i.e. the Ford Fiesta...sometimes not i.e. the Ford Focus) though so they get the 5 stars/Good rating and the top safety pick awards/advertising that go along with that that in each specific market.
 
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:38 am

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 39):
Exactly, which is why killing Opel and leaving DaewooChev seems an interesting decision. Killing Opel and partnering PSA for volume might be more logical for Europe apart for a volume dive for the bottom with Korean vehicles.


Opel makes fine cars. They just need to cut costs and step up their marketing game. It does not need to sale to the US to be successful.
 
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:57 am

Quoting zhiao (Reply 41):
Opel makes fine cars. They just need to cut costs and step up their marketing game.

Acc. to the Opel designers, GM has been cutting too much cost and didn´t let them build potentially successful cars.

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Kent350787
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:41 am

Quoting zhiao (Reply 41):
It does not need to sale to the US to be successful.

I agree. However, there has been discussion here previously around how OpelSaturns could have been made more successful.
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:32 am

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 37):
Designed in and mostly made in Europe. I think the Mustang's available as a very limited import, but no US fords are volume sellers in Europe (or most other parts of the world?)

Mustangs are grey imports, not officially brought by Ford.

US Fords are only sold in significant quantities in Saudi Arabia and, to a lesser extent, Dubai, Qatar, Kuwait and Bahrain. You used to be able to see American-made Fords in Russia, but they quickly switched to Focus, Mondeos and Fiestas about a decade ago.
 
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:58 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 18):
Because if it is designed to be cheaply modified then it looks like crap. If you want a nice, cohesive, fluid design then it costs more money to convert between LHD and RHD.

Nobody does that anymore, interiors are all done properly these days.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
I really am neutral on Vauxhall, but Opel has a lot of value to it,

Vauxhal has huge value it's the second largest brand in the UK, which is the second largest automarket in Europe.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 33):
French cars are successfull all over the world. Safe and some slightly different design.

Which parts of the world outside of Europe are French cars market leaders?

Quoting zhiao (Reply 38):
For instance, the Ford Fusion

The 2013 Ford Fusion will be the next Mondeo, it was designed and engineered by Ford Europe.

Quoting zhiao (Reply 38):
When you think about it, no European made car is a volume seller in the US either.

Ford Focus is a European designed car which has a pretty good market share in the US. Also the Buick Regal is a very lightly badge engineered Opel Insignia, designed and engineered in Germany.
 
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:51 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 4):
After all, $125m is peanuts compared to how much the bailout cost.

Cost? You mean the countless jobs (and tax revenue) saved? Or that the government was paid back...with interest?

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 9):
GM must dream about building such cars.

Great point.

Quoting Polot (Reply 23):
No, it is because the last cars they sold here were just god awful, even they would admit it, so nobody bought them and they left an unprofitable market.

Not really. Peugeot never brought a "god awful" car over - they just didn't do a lot of support. Peugeots were generally beloved by the few who had one - including my mom, who loved her 505 STi. Renault, on the other hand, completely screwed up their partnership with AMC. Well, the first mistake was partnering with AMC when the writing was on the wall. The second was bringing a really, really weird lineup over and letting AMC screw it up. Too bad, because the Renault 25-based Eagle Premier was actually a good car, just came too late.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 37):
Chevy's a Korean brand, isn't it?

Is that a joke?

Quoting zhiao (Reply 38):
But it's still a US brand with a good reputation.

That's because Ford of Europe has operated largely free of Detroit's mis-management - and because Ford has always been a better run company than GM or Chrysler anyway. Ford of Europe has also not had the horrid reliability issues of Ford US.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 45):
Which parts of the world outside of Europe are French cars market leaders?

Middle East - especially Iran. Iran actually has quite the interesting car industry.
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:58 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 33):
IF GM reckons they can introduce Chevrolet to Europe they have serious issues at HQ in Detroit. Chevrolet has probably the worst reputation there is among cars.

I'm seeing more and more TV ads, so they're trying. The Corvette is leading the pack of chevys in the ad, I didn't know it was sold here (maybe it isn't), strange ad. The first car they try to sell you in the ad is the spark, the new matiz, aka the car that destroyed any reputation chevrolet could have had here.

Quoting zhiao (Reply 38):
For instance, the Ford Fusion, U.S. model, is a fine car that would do well in Europe along with the other Ford models. The current Ford Fusion in Europe is hideous.

The US Fusion is pretty much the Mondeo.

Quoting zhiao (Reply 41):
They just need to cut costs and step up their marketing game.

Marketing seems alright to me, Renault had to make ads answering Opel ones. Cost cutting has been going on for more than a decade in Germany, don't think it's like the US where every manufacturer dropped the ball.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 45):
Vauxhal has huge value it's the second largest brand in the UK, which is the second largest automarket in Europe.

But doesn't every Vauxhall buyer know it's just an Opel ?

It's not exactly like the situation with Opel not being seen as American, with most people not knowing it's part of GM.
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Kiwirob
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:44 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 47):

But doesn't every Vauxhall buyer know it's just an Opel ?

I don't know. It's probably similar to what you wrote below.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 47):

It's not exactly like the situation with Opel not being seen as American, with most people not knowing it's part of GM.
 
JJJ
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RE: General Motors Buys 7% Stake In Peugeot-Citroen

Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:49 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
Middle East - especially Iran. Iran actually has quite the interesting car industry.

And South America.

In Argentina Renault is 3rd best selling brand, Peugeot is the 5th. The Pug 207 was the 2nd best-selling car last year.

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