Pet peeve here. I live north of Atlanta and we have a tornado system coming here in the next half hour.

What bugs me is that years ago, a Tornado WATCH was issued when conditions were ripe for a tornado. Keep your TV or radio on and be ready to move (as Ron White would say, "Get a helmet"). A tornado WARNING meant a twister is on the ground, time to head to the basement if it's in your neighborhood (as Ron White would say, "Put on the helmet").

But for the past several years, it seems that they issue a watch when things might start getting interesting, and a tornado warning is issued where before a watch was sufficient. Yeah, it's raining and gusting right now outside, but I'm watching the coverage and no tornado has been spotted anywhere as far as I can tell. It seems to be standard practice now.

I wish they'd stop it and go back to what it was before. Now a tornado warning just means "watch TV".

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter): I wish they'd stop it and go back to what it was before. Now a tornado warning just means "watch TV".

In the Midwest, this morning actually we got the same system you guys got I assume.

We got a Tornado Watch posted at 11am to continue until 6pm. Warnings were only declared if there was rotation in the air or a Tornado was confirmed on the ground. My county never got a warning but we got a watch, it expired soon after the storm had passed through.

Stay safe out there though!

Alex

If weather forecasters see the tell-tale rotation on doppler radar indicating a tornado is present, but not on the ground they'll issue a warning too. This is probably what is happening.

I consider a watch as a long term warning - the weather conditions are going to be conducive for tornados to develop.

The warnings for me are that those conditions are happening right now. The hooks on the TV Radar. wall clouds, etc. Spotting tornados on the ground is within the warning, but is a specific news announcements.

We have learned to keep an eye on weather radar when thunderstorms are in the area. A local TV station has an excellent iPad/iPhone app, WeatherBug is great (especially on the iPad) and we have MyRadar as our backup.

I've seen rotations once (out a 7th floor office window) that was fortunately thin and casual enough to become a problem and I've seen them on the ground out a bedroom window, If you have a Watch you need to know how you and your family will respond if it gets worse. Keeping an eye on weather radar lets you know when to get the water, food, blankets and radio in place. Watching the radar under the warning lets you know if you need to get in position, which is hopefully figured out until that Oh-Sh*t moment when things get nasty.

I live on the Southside of Atlanta and had the game I was watching on NBC Sports interrupted by the tornado warning message even though the areas where the warning were issued for are on the other side of town. It's bad enough that where I live is in an area of my county in which if a warning is issued for any part of the county, my weather radio goes off.

In some cases, it could be a case of "covering one's own butt", as the NWS has in the past been criticized for not issuing warnings in time. Plus this with this sort of activity happening at night, it makes things more dangerous and warning even earlier is even more important. I think about all of the tornado watches and warnings I've been through over the years, and the vast majority of them have been at night. Some of the worst storms that have come through the Metro Atlanta area over the years hit at night.

This stuff is going to go on late into the night, as the radar is showing bad storms all the back to Mississippi.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter): But for the past several years, it seems that they issue a watch when things might start getting interesting, and a tornado warning is issued where before a watch was sufficient. Yeah, it's raining and gusting right now outside, but I'm watching the coverage and no tornado has been spotted anywhere as far as I can tell. It seems to be standard practice now.

I'm not 100% sure I understand your question, but recently in some regions the NWS has begun to use a new 3 tiered warning system. I'm not sure if you're in one of these areas but this is the new system:

1) Standard Tornado Warning: These warnings are the basic ones issued by the National Weather Service when radial velocities on radar indicate a possible tornado. Most of the time, these are the basic warnings issued by all offices across the United States.

2) Potentially Dangerous Situation (PDS) Tornado Warning: If a PDS Tornado Warning is issued, then it means that the storm has a tornado on the ground that was spotted by a storm chaser or the public. These warnings are the second highest level that the NWS will issue.

3) Tornado Emergency: In a tornado emergency, a large tornado is on the ground producing a lot of damage and is headed towards a populated city. Tornado emergencies were issued back on April 27, 2011 when a supercell thunderstorm was pushing into Tuscaloosa, Alabama. A tornado emergency is the highest level of emergency on this scale.

Of note is that the NWS is using a new weather radar system to identify tornados now. The tornadoes that just hit Branson, Missouri were identified using the new dual polarization radar system. That radar had just become operational in SW Missouri. Before they would just look in one dimension for heavy rain now they're able to see the debris field kicked up by a radar (2 dimensions). In Branson's case it allowed them to issue a tornado warning 25 minutes before the tornado hit, double the national average. They want to install 100 more of these new radars across tornado magnet country before the end of the year. Money well spent, I've had a tornado hit within a few hundred yards of my house growing up in N. Arkansas and we never had a warning.

[Edited 2012-03-02 19:17:21]

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 2): If weather forecasters see the tell-tale rotation on doppler radar indicating a tornado is present, but not on the ground they'll issue a warning too. This is probably what is happening.

A warning is when a funnell cloud has been formed and it doesn't actually touch the ground IIRC.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 4): I live on the Southside of Atlanta and had the game I was watching on NBC Sports interrupted by the tornado warning message even though the areas where the warning were issued for are on the other side of town. It's bad enough that where I live is in an area of my county in which if a warning is issued for any part of the county, my weather radio goes off.

I've noticed the Weather Channel doing that stuff, too. They'll have warnings scrolling across the bottom of the screen, but for areas not even CLOSE to where I'm at. I live in Chester County, Pennsylvania, and I've seen warnings issued for Sussex County, which is in NORTH JERSEY!

As stated above, watches mean conditions are favorable for such development (low level moisture, warm air, turning of the air with height), while a warning means that something is happening or is very likely to happen. Usually those who will actually confirm a tornado or tornado-related activity are a public/goverment official (i.e. cop) or trained spotter or a storm chaser. Members of the national weather service can confirm tornadoes based on damage left behind.

When a storm gets really bad and does extensive damage, sometimes it's hard to distinguish between a tornado and a microburst initially. If the debris path is linear (uprooted trees in a unidirectional fashion) then it's more than likely a microburst. However, if the debris appears to be twisted (trees down facing in all directions, some buildings twisted, trees themselves twisted but not necessarily uprooted), then a tornado is likely confirmed. Based on the extent of the damage, the tornado is then ranked EF0 (weak, most likely tree damage, with winds under 75 mph) to EF5 (whole structures - in some cases whole towns leveled - estimated wind speeds of 200 mph or more).

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter): A tornado WARNING meant a twister is on the ground,

Tornado warning is when they spot one either visually or on radar. If it's on the ground it's already past the point of a warning.


But if you look across decades, tornadoes have increased by quite a bit. But it's not global warming, most of it is just that we are much better at spotting and recording them than before. So if it seems like there are more tornado watches and warnings than ever before, it's probably because there are.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 7): I've noticed the Weather Channel doing that stuff, too. They'll have warnings scrolling across the bottom of the screen, but for areas not even CLOSE to where I'm at. I live in Chester County, Pennsylvania, and I've seen warnings issued for Sussex County, which is in NORTH JERSEY!

I dont think that The Weather Channel issues official warnings. The National Weather Service does that. It could be the cable company displaying the warnings through out their service area or possibly the local TV station. I imagine Philly area stations have a large area to cover.

Personally speaking I think we're better off with radar indicated tornado warnings than no warning at all. What good does a warning do if we have to wait for an actual funnel cloud or tornado to be well formed? I'm pretty sure the first person to notice the tornado is going to be the person looking at it through the missing roof in their house than a LEO or trained spotter. At night the danger is even greater. A honest question here too, when faced with a tornado warning, what are you going to do? Go in the basement/closet or go look outside to see where the tornado is? I know I 9 times out of 10 would go as far as jumping in my truck and go tornado huntin'. I'd rather be made aware of a potential developing situation on TV or radio than have then have my neighbors flying garage wake me up in the middle night with the weather report a few minutes later.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 6): A warning is when a funnell cloud has been formed and it doesn't actually touch the ground IIRC.

The warning is issued when radar detects rotation in the cloud (ie, a hook echo):



We can clearly see a well defined hook where a tornado MIGHT be developing. Why 'might' in capital letters? Because hook echos detected on radar show rotation. A funnel might be developing but it doesn't necessarily mean a tornado has formed (tornado is when the funnel touches the ground). For that, spotters are sent out and relay information back to the NWS. Sometimes, a tornado can touch the ground before it can be clearly seen on a hook echo (and sometimes a hook echo is not seen at all).

Now, since I don't live in a tornado prone area, I've never had these watches and warnings, but I prefer that the NWS sends out a warning whenever they think a tornado is forming or has been spotted. This is an example of why their warning shouldn't be taken too lightly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT7CtF5ljxY&feature=relmfu

Yep, the Joplin tornado. It's starts out as thin funnel and in a matter of seconds develops into a devastating wedge tornado.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 7): I've noticed the Weather Channel doing that stuff, too. They'll have warnings scrolling across the bottom of the screen, but for areas not even CLOSE to where I'm at. I live in Chester County, Pennsylvania, and I've seen warnings issued for Sussex County, which is in NORTH JERSEY!

Maybe the NWS covers both areas. For instance, the NWS in Memphis covers a few counties on Missouri, Arkansas, and I think Mississippi as well, in addition to western Tennessee. But if the warning is issued by that office, it will cover all the counties it is responsible for, regardless of whether the storm is near your county or not.

And TWC only relays information sent out from the NWS and NHC. They don't issue warnings on their own (which is a bit of a letdown considering how they call themselves "The ___ weather authority").

Quoting srbmod (Reply 4): In some cases, it could be a case of "covering one's own butt", as the NWS has in the past been criticized for not issuing warnings in time

I am not a huge fan of the media, but in this case, the hype and sensationalism may have saved countless lives. Although it's no consolation to the 30+ victims, (so far) i'm convinced that if it were not for the attention that was drawn to this situation, we'd be looking at hundreds of fatalities.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 7): I've noticed the Weather Channel doing that stuff, too. They'll have warnings scrolling across the bottom of the screen, but for areas not even CLOSE to where I'm at. I live in Chester County, Pennsylvania, and I've seen warnings issued for Sussex County, which is in NORTH JERSEY!

Now that is done since there are folks from those viewing areas watching the channel. I know that there's a few counties in Eastern Alabama that are included in the viewing area for the local Atlanta channels and whenever they are issued a watch/warning, they are reported on those stations.

This is something the cable company has been doing in recent years. When a warning gets issued (or there is an Amber Alert) they interrupt all programming and have a warning screen appear (along with a scrolling message) with someone announcing the warning and the areas it covers. Where I live was well away from the tornado warnings issued last night, ye Comcast/Xfinity interrupted programming in my area (and presumably all of their service area in Metro Atlanta) with this warning. I'm used to them doing so when the warnings are in some of the neighboring counties since some customers in the county I live it would be in the path of said storm and an earlier warning is crucial. I think part of the reason why we got the warning message is because they include entire counties in these watches/warnings and Fulton County is a long county and it neighbors my county. Despite the warning really only applying to northern Fulton County, it was issued for the entire county although the rest of the county wasn't even getting rain at the time.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter): But for the past several years, it seems that they issue a watch when things might start getting interesting, and a tornado warning is issued where before a watch was sufficient. Yeah, it's raining and gusting right now outside, but I'm watching the coverage and no tornado has been spotted anywhere as far as I can tell. It seems to be standard practice now.

A watch always still goes out when conditions are favorable for tornadoes to develop. Typically the risk for a tornado to occur has to be a chance at more than 2, otherwise they'll just go with a SVR Tstm Watch/Blue Box to cover the area as other severe weather modes will be more prevalent. Warnings will always get issued when velocities reach a certain threshold in a tight area. They also go out when a ROTATING wall cloud is spotted, for most funnel clouds (cold air funnels typically don't prompt warnings), and of course when one is spotted by ground spotters.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 3): The warnings for me are that those conditions are happening right now. The hooks on the TV Radar. wall clouds, etc. Spotting tornados on the ground is within the warning, but is a specific news announcements.

Not all are spotted, but that is because not all areas of spotter rich environments where you are going to have several pairs of eyes on the storm. I'm spoiled in Central Oklahoma since the spotter network is vast combined with media and the School of Meteorology students at OU...nothing goes unwatched in most cases here. This is also why you can sit there and watch a wall cloud just do its thing with some rotation, but OUN (NWS Norman) won't pull the trigger on a warning unless it appears rotation is strong enough to warrant the warning. If it is just a generally weak rotating wall cloud, they'll just observe and avoid sounding the alert.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 5): 1) Standard Tornado Warning: These warnings are the basic ones issued by the National Weather Service when radial velocities on radar indicate a possible tornado. Most of the time, these are the basic warnings issued by all offices across the United States. 2) Potentially Dangerous Situation (PDS) Tornado Warning: If a PDS Tornado Warning is issued, then it means that the storm has a tornado on the ground that was spotted by a storm chaser or the public. These warnings are the second highest level that the NWS will issue. 3) Tornado Emergency: In a tornado emergency, a large tornado is on the ground producing a lot of damage and is headed towards a populated city. Tornado emergencies were issued back on April 27, 2011 when a supercell thunderstorm was pushing into Tuscaloosa, Alabama. A tornado emergency is the highest level of emergency on this scale.

You have things just a little mixed up, but I'll straighten them out for you. There are currently only two types of warning languages used by the NWS right now, and not all offices use them. Your typical tornado warning with basic wording is like you explained and how many understand them. The second type of wording (note, not type of warning) is the Tornado Emergency. This was language first used during the Bridge Creek/Moore/OKC F5 in May '99 by the OUN NWS office. The people in the patch had 30-60 minutes warning lead time and it was used to press urgency for a large violent tornado moving in a heavily populated metro area. Unfortunately we've seen the use of the Tornado Emergency language get overused a bit lately for when a tornado is approaching nearly any city/town. There is a lot of debate still on the appropriate way to use this language. In most cases some are reluctant to support this since it drives people to take the original warning language less seriously.

Now your 2nd example has nothing to do with warnings at all. PDS is associated with watches...either Tornado or Severe Thunderstorm and are overall very rare. In fact the SVR PDS is exceptionally rare and normally reserved for large scale derecho events. The TOR PDS is saved in cases where the risk of strong/violent (EF2+) is exceptionally high. You'll normally only find them in Moderate/High Risk areas. Like any high end event though, conditions can be just off slightly and cause the PDS forecast to bust. Then there are other times where it unfortunately works out.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 5): Before they would just look in one dimension for heavy rain now they're able to see the debris field kicked up by a radar (2 dimensions). In Branson's case it allowed them to issue a tornado warning 25 minutes before the tornado hit, double the national average. They want to install 100 more of these new radars across tornado magnet country before the end of the year.

You are partially right here. The main focus of the dual pol radar system, which we've had in testing here in Central Oklahoma for probably at least 10 years, is to help determine precip type or what is actually being detected by radar. So the main benefit of this tool will be to help with rain/snow/sleet/etc differentiation as well as detecting dust, bugs, birds, and yes debris. Hail size also gets some love with the new system too. All NWS NEXRAD sites will receive the upgrade to Dual Pol over time. However, that's not the big one in the pipeline.

The new Phased-Array radar system which has been used by the military for decades is being adopted for weather. The first Phased-Array system started to be tested here in Central OK about 7 years ago. The main difference with the system is that is utilized multiple beams instead of just one spinning around at different tilt angles. The scan speed of this radar is around 20-30 seconds for a complete scan or less than 10 for an isolated/focused area. The current NEXRAD WSR-88D system takes 5+ minutes to perform a complete scan since it has to rotate several times at around 14 different angles (though 14 are only for Level 2 Data, the general public/media normally only gets Level 3 date which is 4-5 angles).

Not sure how far away we are from the PAR deployment across the country. Right now I think we still have the only one here which is used by OU, NSSL, and also operationally during peak events by OUN NWS. The radar has been well tested so far though. The last couple of years Norman has had a few strong tornadoes in close proximity...including 3 EF4s and an EF5 last year up on the west side of OKC.

Real time images of the PAR system are available here: http://wdssii.nssl.noaa.gov/web/wdss2/products/radar/nwrtbase.shtml Of course nothing is going on in OK right now, so nothing is there. LOL

The site also has links to other radar projects being tested. The CASA system is linked here which is a series of smaller/high resolution radar units that normally capture a radius of around 30 miles. There are currently 4 of these radars deployed along I-44 from OKC to Lawton in southwest Oklahoma which statistically has the highest concentration of tornadoes anywhere. It is also the traditional direction for supercells to travel when approaching the OKC Metro.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 11): Yep, the Joplin tornado. It's starts out as thin funnel and in a matter of seconds develops into a devastating wedge tornado.

Those "wedge" tornadoes don't even look like tornadoes. Just low clouds to the layman's eyes; that's what makes them 10x worse than your standard funnels.

Speaking of Tornadoes, prayers to those in the South and Midwest. They are getting completely hammered over there.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter): Pet peeve here.

I'm with you on this one. It wasn't that long ago a tornado warning was a rare occurrence that meant you headed for cover immediately. It meant a real funnel cloud or tornado was spotted. Now the NWS issues them more frequently with the "radar detected" rotation, which commonly doesn't produce a real tornado or even a funnel cloud. It desensitizes the public to the danger. I know I don't take tornado warnings as seriously as I used to.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 4): I live on the Southside of Atlanta and had the game I was watching on NBC Sports interrupted by the tornado warning message even though the areas where the warning were issued for are on the other side of town

The TV stations here in TUL have a pretty large coverage area as well as some sophisticated weather radars. That leaves them with the ability to warn people in outlying area of potential dangers. Their commitment to be of service can be seen when thunder storms develop in the country and they use time allotted for commercials to provide information on the status of the storms. Their computer based radars can even determine when the bulk of a storm will hit little towns or villages.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 5): They want to install 100 more of these new radars across tornado magnet country before the end of the year.

These new systems are well worth the costs and I hope there will be money available for them.

As an interesting side note, I heard a story this week about a trailer park owner providing a tornado shelter for his tenants. He bought an old school bus and had a big trench dug for the bus. Now his customers have a pace to go, complete with reasonably comfortable seats.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18): The TV stations here in TUL have a pretty large coverage area as well as some sophisticated weather radars.

The benefit of larger cities being more spread out. The OKC stations viewing areas for example include all but Northeast and far Southeast Oklahoma. We are pretty spoiled here with the coverage with every station providing a vast network of chasers and aerial views with their helicopters. Not to mention the toys in the studios.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18): Their commitment to be of service can be seen when thunder storms develop in the country and they use time allotted for commercials to provide information on the status of the storms. Their computer based radars can even determine when the bulk of a storm will hit little towns or villages.

Well let's not get too carried away. LOL The commitment of service is nothing more than a commitment to gain ratings. Severe weather coverage is massive exposure and ratings draws for them. This is why they will go with nonstop coverage through network programming in the evenings. It may be different in TUL, especially for the two other stations not owned by OKC-based Griffin. However, here in the OKC Metro it is all weather all the time even if the tornado on the ground is in Southwest Oklahoma. Also the street level mapping is a feature in nearly every radar application out there. Even the one that I use personally that costs me around $300 has it...the funny thing is, many TV stations and even TWC use it now. LOL So the street level thing is really not a special or unique feature.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18): These new systems are well worth the costs and I hope there will be money available for them.

As I mentioned above, the Dual Pol upgrades are going to everyone. The upgrades should be done by mid 2013 with the sties in Alaska and Puerto Rico being the last ones done. The more dramatic upgrades, the Phased-Array system currently being utilized and tested in Norman (OK) won't start to be deployed nationally until at least 2020 from the way it sounds now. The PAR system will require a completely new dish and tower for the installation. So the cost is much more significant than the Dual Pol upgrades being applied to the existing WSR-88D systems.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18): These new systems are well worth the costs and I hope there will be money available for them.

Is that what allows us to observe a debris ball? Did any of you guys notice that with last years tornado outbreaks? Many of the stronger tornadoes produced debris balls that were actually picked up on doppler radar.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18): Quoting srbmod (Reply 4): I live on the Southside of Atlanta and had the game I was watching on NBC Sports interrupted by the tornado warning message even though the areas where the warning were issued for are on the other side of town The TV stations here in TUL have a pretty large coverage area as well as some sophisticated weather radars. That leaves them with the ability to warn people in outlying area of potential dangers.

I get what you, Srbmod, and the other fellow(s) were all saying. I just think it was rather odd that I'd see a warning for a location that is much closer to New York than Philly. (Altho, isn't Monmoth County, NJ in the NWS coverage of Mt. Holly/Philadelphia? It's part of the Greater NYC metro area.)

Not to mention, I'd see coastal flood advisories scrolling across the bottom of my screen -- for areas of New Jersey (of course, that part is left out). I mean, if it's for a very specific location, you'd think broadcasters would be more sophisticated to exclude certain areas like places well above sea-level.

If Chester County is under a coastal flood advisory... Holy crap, I guess I DO have to watch out for all that 2012 crap!

To tell you the truth if a tornado hit my house and I survived, I don't think we would know what to do, where to start with the recovery. Has anyone here been through something like this and where DO you start?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...viously_issued_tornado_emergencies

This is a list of tornado emergencies. Note that since the creation of this warning in 1999 there were used only a few times a year until 2011 where it had been used numerous times. Scary.