sbworcs
Posts: 808
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 249):
, it is about justice and not allowing terrorist tactics to become a viable way for a group of people to get what they want.

And how did the terrorists in Northern Ireland get what they want?

I can't believe you think that it is better to have killings and bloodshed rather than peace - bizarre logic.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:31 pm

According to his lawyer, the Sgt. is innocent, since "there has been no forensic evidence secured and there is no confession".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17454316

I wonder if they´ll bring the Afghan witnesses to the US to testify in the trial? And will their testimonies be discredited as being written by the Taliban?

It looks as if the guy might walk away as a free man. What a f#ck up!

Jan
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NAV20
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:41 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 251):
It looks as if the guy might walk away as a free man.

A certain amount of 'good news' on that score in this story:-

"Murder charges against Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales are expected to be filed Friday, for his alleged shooting rampage almost two weeks ago that resulted in the deaths of 17 Afghan civilians.

"A U.S. official confirms that Bales will be charged with 17 counts of murder as well, six counts of attempted murder, and six counts of aggravated assault, in addition to other violations of the U.S. Code of Military Justice. All of the charges are related to the 17 deaths that allegedly resulted from Bales’ rampage.

"The number of Afghans killed in the incident has been reported widely as 16, but criminal charges are expected to include 17 counts of murder. U.S. officials said the updated number of casualties reflected either the death of one of the civilians initially wounded in the rampage, or new information gathered by Army investigators on the ground in Afghanistan."


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...-kandahar-shooter-expected-friday/
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
windy95
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:31 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 252):
or new information gathered by Army investigators on the ground in Afghanistan."

I thought you said there was no investigations afterwards?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 252):
A certain amount of 'good news' on that score in this story

There is no good news in all of this. Including these charges. Could you imagine if Bush and Cheney had still been in office when this happened. I imagine this slaughter is not as bad as Abu Ghraib by the way the press and the left is covering it.
 
NAV20
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:09 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 253):
I thought you said there was no investigations afterwards?

I did, windy95 - and I stand by that view. The press reports say that the information on the increased death toll etc. is the result of 'new investigations' - not investigations carried out immediately after the occurrence. I suspect that, as far as the US Army is concerned, this matter has followed the course that anyone who has served in any army will be familiar with; first, an effort to cover things up, 'smooth them over' - and only later a realisation that the case is a serious matter meriting serious attention. And I wouldn't mind betting that the 'new' information was initially provided by Afghan, not American, investigators.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 253):
There is no good news in all of this. Including these charges.

With respect, that's why I put the words 'good news' in inverted commas.   I was answering MD11Engineer's valid point that it was looking as if Bales might get clean away with it; that his fancy lawyer would be able to get all charges dropped on the basis of 'lack of evidence,' 'combat fatigue,' 'loss of memory,' 'head injury,' 'PTSD,' etc.

I think that virtually all of us can agree that there is 'a case to answer.' And that the consequences of any further attempted cover-ups would be dire - not just for the Afghans, but for the US Army, other Coalition forces in Afghanistan, and in due course all of us, who would share the risk of worldwide redoubled terrorist attacks for years to come.

My guess is that most of the US Army people involved at the outset were thinking 'cover-up' - a quick determination that Bales was not responsible for his actions due to 'combat stress' and whatever. But that, later, 'wiser heads prevailed' and it was decided to 'throw the book' at Bales and let the matter run its course. One can't argue with 17 murder charges and 12 other serious charges - the US Army appears finally to be determined to see the matter through to a proper conclusion.

So I for one am somewhat reassured.......

[Edited 2012-03-24 06:18:59]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
vegetables2001
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:23 pm

I'm surprised incident like these don't happen more often, soldiers aren't generally very pleasant or intelligent people. Put them in someone else's country and add to that an enemy who hides amongst the local population. It's just an accident waiting to happen.
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smittyone
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 255):
soldiers aren't generally very pleasant or intelligent people.

  

Not sure that making sweeping generalizations about groups of people is particularly helpful. But 'if' your assessment is true, then I suppose it's because the more erudite and compassionate among us either can't be bothered to serve or don't have the chops to perform effectively under the conditions that soldiers are expected to. Very few people are blessed with strengths across the spectrum from brute strength to enlightenment. Ideally these are the ones who rise to the leadership positions.

Which is why using military force to achieve many objectives is like trying to screw in a lightbulb with a hammer.

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 255):
Put them in someone else's country and add to that an enemy who hides amongst the local population. It's just an accident waiting to happen.

I agree with this.
 
ltbewr
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:45 pm

That Sgt. Bales has been formally charged is important. That it took almost 2 weeks is not unreasonable, especially when the logistical and other circumstances as well as the severity and complexity of the charges are considered. Now comes the preparation for trial, from extensive consulting with his attorneys and a through physical, mental health and psychological examination of Sgt. Bales to determine if he is fit to face trial.

Of course his civilian attorney and the wife are starting the defensive spin machine going from blaming the war, bad war policy and the lack of compassion by the military that sent Sgt. Bales one more time perhaps too many back into war. Besides some comments from the civilian attorney, a pre-taped 'exclusive' interview of the the wife of Sgt. Bales with NBC's Matt Lauer will be shown on Monday morning on the 'Today' show (got to get those ratings !)

News reports have suggested that the trial would take place at his home base at Ft. Lewis in Washington state, apparently normal procedure under the UCMJ. That would mean reasonably convenient access to his family and civilian lawyer. One question is where Sgt. Bales would go for his examinations, if they would be done at Ft. Lewis, Ft. Leavenworth or at another military or even an a non-military, civilian facility to assure fairness in his defense. There are also serious legal, security and logistical issues as to how to deal with Afghan citizen witnesses, if they would have to appear in person at the Trial or if some video conferencing method could be used. Then too, there is the issue of the trial in the USA for an act that occurred to civilians in a civilian location in a foreign country. I suspect some member of the Afghan government and attorneys for the victims will attend any major procedures and trials to protect their positions and make sure nothing is covered up.

In the end, this mass murder raises serious issues as to the USA led war in Afghanistan and makes us here look at them and have us make decisions including withdrawal from there while saving face.
 
NAV20
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:59 pm

"(AP) WASHINGTON - American officials say U.S. investigators now believe the U.S. soldier accused of killing 17 Afghan civilians split the slaughter into two episodes - returning to his base after the first attack and later slipping away to kill again."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-....-bales-went-on-2-shooting-sprees/

Very much raises the question of who (if anyone) was in command. And also the question of whether he had access to additional ammunition etc. in the middle of the night.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:10 am

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 255):
I'm surprised incident like these don't happen more often, soldiers aren't generally very pleasant or intelligent people. Put them in someone else's country and add to that an enemy who hides amongst the local population. It's just an accident waiting to happen.

Dude, I just can't even begin to start with what is wrong with that statement.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 258):
Very much raises the question of who (if anyone) was in command.

I don't see how. And as history has shown at many places including the British Army Isswanlanda(spl?) during the Zulu War and By the US Army and Navy at Pearl Harbor, you don't beat off attackers by locking up your ammo.

And that base was in unfriendly country.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
vegetables2001
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:28 pm

RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:24 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 259):
Dude, I just can't even begin to start with what is wrong with that statement.

Sorry, I work in a workplace that is approximately 40%-50% ex-uk military. When they are not banging on endlessly about rag-headed muslims they are swapping and laughing at various video clips of people being liquidised by helicopters mini guns. As far as I'm concerned that sort of behaviour is fairly unpleasant and uneducated - I'm just saying what I've seen first hand.
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Quokkas
Topic Author
Posts: 1327
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:12 pm

It is now being reported that the US has paid compensation to the victims' families, according to a local official. The amounts being claimed as having been handed over are US$50,000 (AU$46,000) for each of the dead and $11,000 for each person who was wounded.

Although this hasn't been confirmed by US officials, it hasn't been denied either.

Quote:
"As a matter of policy ISAF does not make restitution for losses resulting from combat, combat-related activities or operational necessity," he said.

But he added: "Individual troop-contributing nations may participate in some form of restitution consistent with the cultural norms of Afghanistan."

He said such payments are normally kept confidential.

The same report states that

Quote:
some witnesses have been told they will be flown to the United States to give evidence, and that others will be able to participate by video-link.

Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-2...of-afghan-massacre-victims/3911698

[Edited 2012-03-25 06:18:27]
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
NAV20
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:20 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 259):
I don't see how. And as history has shown at many places including the British Army Isswanlanda(spl?) during the Zulu War and By the US Army and Navy at Pearl Harbor, you don't beat off attackers by locking up your ammo.

Dunno, L-188 - as I said earlier, unless a pitched battle is going on, ammunition in disciplined forces is usually only issued against a signature and is required to be returned to store as people go off duty. The reason for that is not so much 'tactical' as practical - otherwise people could (and now and again did) do utterly-stupid things with it (which appears to have happened in this case). It's only too possible that, if Bales did in fact return to base and go out again, he did in fact draw additional ammo. If so, since he wasn't on 'official duty,' that surely has to be a failure of command?

A digression, but I hope an entertaining one.   The place was called 'Isandlwana,' and was the location of an invading British force, plus 'native contingents,' which was pretty well wiped out in the early stages of the Zulu War in 1879. The reason for the defeat was not any ammunition shortage - it was due to the overall British commander dividing his force, and the local commander failing to see that his detachment dug itself in. A contributing factor was that the column concerned also included a large number of local 'native levies,' who were very poorly armed, and understandably mostly made themselves scarce when a huge Zulu force (some estimates put its size at up to 20,000) attacked and wiped out a column which boiled down to less than a thousand 'redcoats.'

Most of the dead soldiers were members of the '24th. Regiment of Foot,' which was in process of being re-named as the '2nd. Warwickshire Regiment.' This was almost an 'insult,' as the regiment concerned was mainly based in Brecon in South Wales, not in the English county.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana

The next day the British exhibited their talent for 'winning the last battle' after the odd early disaster. One company of the 24th. Regiment (only about 100 redcoats plus about forty locals) had been assigned to guard a supply depot at the nearby mission station at Rorke's Drift; and the officer commanding that force 'did the right thing' and had them dig in. They successfully held out through the night and in the morning the Zulus, pretty badly 'mauled,' withdrew. The British force was assisted, of course, by the fact that the Zulus had already fought one battle that day; and also by the fact that the attackers, after a long march on an exhausting day, tended to arrive in 'dribs and drabs' rather than in a mass. Nevertheless the unit did very well; and was recognised by the award of no fewer than eleven VCs (Victoria Crosses) - which remains a record for a single action to this day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rorke's_Drift

Their achievements were all the more praiseworthy since they were armed only with the first breechloading rifle issued to the British Army - the single-shot Martini-Henry, which naturally only offered a slow rate of fire. But at least (reverting to your original point), given that they were guarding the supply depot for the whole British force, they were in no danger of running out of ammo.....  

Rorke's Drift was later 'commemorated' by a notable film. There's a bit of 'poetic licence' in it, given that, as mentioned above, the Zulus were unable to carry out a mass assault, and instead had to attack more in 'penny packets' - but at least it gives a pretty good impression of what the blokes had to face in those days. Pleased to say that, a couple of years later, the regiment was given a proper Welsh name (the 'South Wales Borderers') and is now part of the Royal Regiment of Wales.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1csr0dxalpI

[Edited 2012-03-25 19:26:49]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:49 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 23):
Quoting jcs17 (Reply 10):
I'm so tired of trying to help a people whose mentality is rooted firmly in the eighth century. The politically correct say no one culture is better than another, I would direct their eyes to Afghanistan and Pakistan. I dare you to tell me those cultures are equal to ours.

I don't understand what you're really angry about. Facts are facts. The Koran is more important to many in the Islamic world, than basic peace and justice in the Western sense. Minorities in Afghanistan and Pakistan are subject to persecution, if not execution, on a daily basis. My dry cleaner in Dallas had to flee Pakistan because he was Christian. Women in Egypt were digitally raped to see if their hymen was intact, and the men who did the act have been exonerated. You allegedly live in Saudi Arabia, home of 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 (if you even believe that fact -- very disputed in the Islamic world), a place where woman are unable to drive a car, and a place where beheadings still take place.

[Edited 2012-03-26 00:36:44]
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NAV20
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:13 am

Looks like more important people than me are also worried about possible failures of command:-

"WASHINGTON - Gen. John Allen, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, said Monday that he is looking at possible contributing factors within the military unit's command structure that could have permitted a soldier to allegedly leave his base twice and slaughter 17 Afghan civilians.

"Allen told Pentagon reporters that he is reviewing the command climate of Staff Sgt. Robert Bales' unit in southern Afghanistan. Bales has been charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder, accused of walking away from the base on possibly two occasions on the same night, and gunning down men, women and nine children while they slept in their beds.

"There have been suggestions that Bales may have been drinking prior to the alleged shooting spree; military regulations prohibit drinking alcohol in a war zone. And, U.S. officials say they believe he may have split the massacre into two incidents, returning to his base after the first attack, then later slipping away to kill again.

"Allen would not go into any details on the unit or the incident, but he said "I will be satisfied when I get the report that we have looked closely at the potential contributing factors that might have permitted this event to have unfolded tragically."


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...unit-after-shooting/#ixzz1qJIwevLm

[Edited 2012-03-27 03:16:20]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
NAV20
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:21 am

Sorry for the double post, but this programme was shown on SBS, our 'multicultural' TV station, last evening; and I thought that I should make it available to everyone as soon as possible.

Turns out that the reporter concerned, Yalda Hakim, was brought to Australia from Afghanistan as a very small child, after the Soviet invasion. So she was able to interview not just the 'elders,' but also some of the victims, including children. And also talk to the Afghan soldiers who were guarding the post; who claim that they repeatedly reported S/Sgt. Bales' 'comings and goings' on the night.

http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story.../id/601431/n/Anatomy-of-a-Massacre
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci

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