Superfly
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:55 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
That and the fact that they still used less fuel than large sedans.

Not so sure about that.
If driven like a Grandparent would drive, the Mustang police version can get better mileage but I doubt any of them were. Many cop cruiser sedans are regularly driven at the same pace as ordinary people with the occasional pursuit and driving over curbs. The Mustang versions were almost always driven fast.
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:16 am

I also learned this. We have to buy parton cruisers that are tested in the Michigan state police tests. It is actually in the ontario police services act or Ontario adequacy standards. So until the Altima or civics are tested andassed we are limited with what we can use for patrol cars.

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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:55 am

Quoting greasespot (Reply 51):
We have to buy parton cruisers that are tested in the Michigan state police tests.

Ahh - their 2012 report at http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...hicleTestBook_Web_PDF_375491_7.pdf makes for quite interesting reading!
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:06 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
Police cars have pretty much always had additional cooling and heavier duty suspensions, not unlike a towing package. Some car companies used to have the police package available to normal buyers, which could boost performance though sometimes at a cost of style and creature comforts.

They probably don't offer them, because it would affect the CAFE compliance.
 
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:52 am

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 47):
It was very comfortable but I don't know how or why that would make a good police car. I guess because it really is a big, solid car.

One-word answer: History.

Police-packaged versions of existing retail cars dates as far back as to a time when most car makers only had one or two sizes in their vheicle line-ups. Those then-called standard-sized cars would later be known as full-size cars by the 1960s & 1970s when car companies started diversifying their product lines.

Additionally, some law enforcement agencies (California Highway Patrol, CHiP, being one of them) HAD weight & wheelbase MINIMUM standards for their enforcement-class vehicles... that is until the mid-70s. From 1956-1974, CHiP's standard for their cars was that it must weight at least 3800 lbs. AND have a wheelbase of 122". The reasoning for this standard, back then, was for better vehicle stability... so it was thought.

CHiP's wheelbase standard alone knocked even the biggest Ford, Chevy & Plymouth sedans out of contention; which was the main reason why they opted for mostly big Dodges and, for 1970, Mercury sedans. Back then, different brands within a company were offered in slightly different sizes in the standard/full-size category (Dodge bigger than Plymouth, Mercury bigger than Ford, Pontiac/Buick/Oldsmobile bigger than Chevy).

No doubt, the first oil price shock of 1973 plus the fact that many mid-sizes of the early-70s were almost as large as full-size cars of the 1960s was what likely prompted CHiP to drop their size requirements for 1975 (when they bought 1500 mid-size Dodge Coronet sedans for Enforcement Vehicle duties).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 37):
That was one reason WHY police-packaged Mustangs & Camaros came into existence in the first place.

That and the fact that they still used less fuel than large sedans. They ended up being a decent compromise between a motorcycle and a sluggish full size sedan. These days there it isn't really a necessary compromise though since a hemi Charger can do pretty much anything they would need a Mustang or Camaro to do. Even the Air Force has transitioned to Pontiac GTOs and G8s while NASA uses Chargers.

They may be using Chargers today, but the Charger was NOT the reason why Ford & Chevy killed off their Police-Packaged pony cars; it wasn't even around in 1994 (when Ford killed off the Police-Packaged Mustang) or 2003 (when GM dropped its F-body platform).
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BMI727
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:22 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 54):
They may be using Chargers today, but the Charger was NOT the reason why Ford & Chevy killed off their Police-Packaged pony cars;

No, but that's why you won't see them return. The compromise is no longer necessary and even agencies that don't need the size are using bigger cars.

You'll probably see the odd car seized from drug dealers, but that's probably about it.
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:16 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 55):
You'll probably see the odd car seized from drug dealers, but that's probably about it.

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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:50 pm

Actually, police package cars are not exempt from CAFE. There is a provision where each manufacturer is allowed to manufacture and sell a certain number of vehicles annually that are non-compliant with CAFE but there are a number of restrictions involved, including no sales to the general public. I forget exactly how the program works, but any decent police car collecter (yes, there are police car collectors) can tell you the details.

The ultimate modern police car was the LT-1 powered Caprice. Most cops that had it got over the looks of the car once they realised that it was more powerful than the chase cars they were using. Once it was available, sales for the Special Service Mustang and Corvette disappeared overnight.

As for trunk space, that is a major consideration. Trunks in smaller cars fill up pretty quickly once you put the equipment boxes for the lightbar, radio and video system in place-even when you ditch the spare and jack.
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:58 am

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 57):
Actually, police package cars are not exempt from CAFE. There is a provision where each manufacturer is allowed to manufacture and sell a certain number of vehicles annually that are non-compliant with CAFE but there are a number of restrictions involved, including no sales to the general public.

What I found was:

Quote:

(e) Emergency Vehicles. - (1) In this subsection, "emergency vehicle" means an automobile manufactured primarily for use - (A) as an ambulance or combination ambulance-hearse; (B) by the United States Government or a State or local government for law enforcement; or (C) for other emergency uses prescribed by regulation by the Secretary of Transportation. (2) A manufacturer may elect to have the fuel economy of an emergency vehicle excluded in applying a fuel economy standard under subsection (a), (b), (c), or (d) of this section.

Ref: http://us-code.vlex.com/vid/sec-aver...ge-fuel-economy-standards-19259512

I guess it all hinges on the word "primarily", and whether or not anyone could be bothered to apply for an exemption. I suspect if the production run of police vehicles was large enough to matter to both the manufacturers and the users, they would apply for an exemption under this section of the law or they would lobby to amend the law, and I have a hard time seeing elected officials not supporting such an amendment. However I doubt such an exemption mattered much if at all. The CV has been doomed for a while due to poor sales (which IMHO does have something to do to a degree with its bad fuel economy, not to mention that the public at large does not fancy land yachts these days), not because its police package version dragged down Ford's CAFE numbers.
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:14 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 56):
My old ride

Nice to see that your night of wild drinking and driving has provided the police with a nice vehicle to use  
 
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:48 pm

Bold emphasis and underline added:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 58):
Quoting 57AZ (Reply 57):
Actually, police package cars are not exempt from CAFE. There is a provision where each manufacturer is allowed to manufacture and sell a certain number of vehicles annually that are non-compliant with CAFE but there are a number of restrictions involved, including no sales to the general public.

What I found was:

Quote:

(e) Emergency Vehicles. - (1) In this subsection, "emergency vehicle" means an automobile manufactured primarily for use - (A) as an ambulance or combination ambulance-hearse; (B) by the United States Government or a State or local government for law enforcement; or (C) for other emergency uses prescribed by regulation by the Secretary of Transportation. (2) A manufacturer may elect to have the fuel economy of an emergency vehicle excluded in applying a fuel economy standard under subsection (a), (b), (c), or (d) of this section.

Ref: http://us-code.vlex.com/vid/sec-aver...59512

With the exception of the current Caprice PPV, EVERY Police-Packaged CAR in the U.S. is/was based off an existing version of said-car that also sold in the U.S. retail market past or present. Even the PPV could have the potential of being sold in the U.S. as a retail model; it is already rumored that a Chevy dealership in Maryland sold a few PPVs in the retail market that were likely cancellations of a prior police department order.

Nonetheless, if the basic model is mass-produced (at least 10,000 vehicles per model year) AND weighs UNDER 8500 lbs.; then it IS indeed subject to EPA mileage ratings AND CAFE laws whether it is sold in fleet (police) or retail markets.

Long story short, just about every police-packaged CAR sold in the U.S. since 1978 has been subject to CAFE laws.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 58):
The CV has been doomed for a while due to poor sales (which IMHO does have something to do to a degree with its bad fuel economy, not to mention that the public at large does not fancy land yachts these days), not because its police package version dragged down Ford's CAFE numbers.

That wasn't always the case. During most of the Panther platform's 32-year life span; the Crown Vic (and '79-'82 LTD) was sold in the retail market as well and its total sales numbers (both fleet and retail full-size Fords) sold well enough to avoid getting the axe until recently.

There were 2 primary reasons WHY the Police-Packaged Panther didn't receive either the Sequential Port-Fuel Injected 5.8L (which became available in 1986 for large trucks & vans) or the 5.4L ('97 and later for large trucks, vans & SUVs) as possible engine options:

1. The ratings of those engines would've automatically triggered an addtional Gas-Guzzler tax for all vehicle purchases due to the CAFE laws in place at the time. Heck, even the variable-venturi powered 5.8L engines from the mid-80s through 1991 triggered the GG tax. Some departments applied to the IRS to request an exemption from the tax (not sure if such exemptions were actually granted). While GM was eventually able to avoid the GG tax after 1993 for its 5.7L powered full-sizes; it just barely cleared that threshold.

2. For most of its 32-year lifespan, the very existence of the platform was ALWAYS under a constant threat. Upgrades & changes (notably the 1992 revamp) were only done if it was known that platform was going to be around for another few years or so. Originally, the both Ford's Panther platform and GM's RWD B & C Bodies weren't expected to survive past 1985 (GM's were originally supposed to be gone by 1983).

Lower gas prices (at the time), an improving economy (again, at the time), buyer demand and CAFE standards remaining flat were the main reasons WHY the Panther platform lasted as long as it did.
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KaiGywer
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:45 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 59):
Nice to see that your night of wild drinking and driving has provided the police with a nice vehicle to use

  
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:07 pm

Thanks for the various comments about the need for space in a police vehicle.

I wonder if this will help support sales of the Explorer?

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 60):
Bold emphasis and underline added:

As well as capitalization, which usually is interpreted as shouting.

All not necessary in my opinion, but it's your post, do what you want.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 60):
Long story short, just about every police-packaged CAR sold in the U.S. since 1978 has been subject to CAFE laws.

Correct, but you didn't address my point that there was an exemption in place for public service vehicles and there would be grounds to expand that exemption if the users and the manufacturers thought police sales were significant enough to sway the entire Ford CAFE average, but no such effort was made.

So, your point is true but not particularly significant, in my opinion.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 60):
Lower gas prices (at the time), an improving economy (again, at the time), buyer demand and CAFE standards remaining flat were the main reasons WHY the Panther platform lasted as long as it did.

Put another way, higher gas prices, a weak economy, lack of buyer demand and increasing CAFE standards doomed the Panther platform. Of course lack of buyer demand is triggered by high gas prices and the weak economy, as well as the fact that buyer's preferences have largely moved away from land yachts such as the CV.

As you said, there were various points where Ford could have put better tech into the platform to improve its viability, but to me the reason was simply that the core car buying market was moving away from the CV so Ford saw no business case for doing so. They just kept milking the existing product line till it there no longer was any profit left in it, then they killed it.
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
As well as capitalization, which usually is interpreted as shouting.

Key word: Usually, but not always. If one was typing several words together in caps; then the shouting assumption would likely be correct. Everything typed in caps more often than not means that somebody accidentally left the Caps Lock On.

Many of my caps involved acronyms, initials and/or abbreviations (IMHO, IIRC, CVPI, PPV, CAFE, IRS, GG) as well. 
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 61):
it is already rumored that a Chevy dealership in Maryland sold a few PPVs in the retail market that were likely cancellations of a prior police department order.

Correct. Those cars were already ordered by the police department-thus the dealer could legally resell the vehicles. As far as police package vehicles, that only goes back to about 1950. Pre-1950s police vehicles were virutally the same as stock vehicles. The vehicles that the dealer sold also probably had the onboard computer's chip changed to derate the cars.
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Superfly
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:41 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
I wonder if this will help support sales of the Explorer?

There is the safety issue with roll-overs with a high center of gravity SUV in pursuits.


Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
higher gas prices, ......doomed the Panther platform.

The recent model panther platforms were getting decent gas mileage and all of the alternatives mentioned in this thread get the same or worse fuel economy.

Ford stopped marketing the panther platform decades ago. It's had to generate enthusiasm for a vehicle that many don't know still exist and often synonymous with police car or taxi.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
a weak economy,

I thought we were in a recovery.   
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:47 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 65):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
I wonder if this will help support sales of the Explorer?

There is the safety issue with roll-overs with a high center of gravity SUV in pursuits.

Good point.

I wonder if a CUV would be a reasonable compromise? Lower CG, more room for storage in the back, some models have AWD so they be at least OK in bad traction situations, etc. However I would wonder about the reliability of many CUVs in the police role because most aren't built to take a pounding.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 65):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
higher gas prices, ......doomed the Panther platform.

The recent model panther platforms were getting decent gas mileage and all of the alternatives mentioned in this thread get the same or worse fuel economy.

Many of the models in this thread aren't stellar sellers either. Car buyers see gas persistently at $4/gal and wonder how much higher it's going to go over the time period they own their next car and act differently when gas was persistently below $4/gal. Some sign up to pay for the gas, many walk away.

Here's a chart adjusted for inflation.



You can see after the spike of the Arab Oil Embargo of the 70s, gas has stayed below $2/gal for the 80s and 90s, and has done nothing but gone up in the 200s except for a correction in 2008. Now one can always hope for corrections, but people buying today mostly don't expect one.

If you want to see what it's done vs other things we have to buy:



This type of change is what puts fear into the hearts of buyers.

Ref: http://www.consumerenergyreport.com/...gas-price-rise-of-the-last-decade/

Quoting Superfly (Reply 65):
Ford stopped marketing the panther platform decades ago. It's had to generate enthusiasm for a vehicle that many don't know still exist and often synonymous with police car or taxi.

The whole market shifted away from land yachts, especially for younger buyers. Personally I don't see how more advertising could have bucked that trend. I think most people knew about the car. In the early 90s when my MIL was looking at cars, we took her to the Merc dealer. She passed on the TC because she didn't want to deal with parking the beast, or having others ding it up because they couldn't deal with parking next to the beast.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 65):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
a weak economy,

I thought we were in a recovery.

We are. The decision to kill the CV/TC was made quite a while ago.
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Flighty
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:38 pm

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 57):
The ultimate modern police car was the LT-1 powered Caprice. Most cops that had it got over the looks of the car once they realised that it was more powerful than the chase cars they were using. Once it was available, sales for the Special Service Mustang and Corvette disappeared overnight.

The LT1 Caprice (Impala SS) was clocked at 142 mph by a magazine. So, for the 90s it acceleration between 80 and 120 was very good.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
This type of change is what puts fear into the hearts of buyers.

Oil buyers? Sure, one can see how that fear feeds on itself. But there is no reason to select 1998 as a norm. That was the Asian Financial Crisis which probably caused an unnatural surplus in oil supplies for several years. I can remember filling up for 79c/gallon inin the late 90s. Today Asia is becoming a titan. So it seems clear that Asia is now bidding prices up.

edit: China has gone from about 3 million barrels per day in 1998 to 10 million in 2012. The US consumes 19-20 million, flat over recent years. Since 1998, India moved from about 2 million to 3 million bpd. Global production has grown too.

[Edited 2012-04-05 06:57:21]
 
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:45 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 67):
But there is no reason to select 1998 as a norm.

Changing the year doesn't matter much: the main point is car buyers are favoring high mileage/gallon vehicles because the price of gasoline currently is at or near historic highs, and as the data you added points out, there's lots of reason to be concerned that it will stay high and/or go higher due to increased demand from emerging nations.

I just did some back-of-the envelope math that shows I'm paying around $180/month for gasoline, which on its own is one of my higher monthly expenses outside of my mortgage. If I was driving a Dodge Charger with an 8 cyl engine, it'd be around $260/month. It is enough money to make one think.

Ref: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2012_Dodge_Charger.shtml
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Superfly
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
I wonder if a CUV would be a reasonable compromise? Lower CG, more room for storage in the back, some models have AWD so they be at least OK in bad traction situations, etc. However I would wonder about the reliability of many CUVs in the police role because most aren't built to take a pounding.

Many CUVs get worse mileage than the Crown Victoria and/or about the same.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
Car buyers see gas persistently at $4/gal and wonder how much higher it's going to go over the time period they own their next car

Well if Obama's Energy Secretary Steven Chu has his way, gas prices will reach the same cost as in Europe. At least that is what the administration's goal seems to be....
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PHLBOS
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 65):
Ford stopped marketing the panther platform decades ago. It's had to generate enthusiasm for a vehicle that many don't know still exist and often synonymous with police car or taxi.

The whole market shifted away from land yachts, especially for younger buyers. Personally I don't see how more advertising could have bucked that trend. I think most people knew about the car.

I'm a bit surprised that nobody has yet commented on one primary reason for that fore-mentioned retail market shifting... SUVs. Once automakers (not just Ford) realized that they could offer a vehicle that had all the capabilities of a full-size car or station wagon and then some without the related-CAFE penalties and Gas Guzzler taxes (until recently, the truck CAFE standard was set at 20 mpg); to them, it was essentially a no-brainer in terms of what to market and what not to market... especially when gas prices remained low or level. While a 5.4L engine in a Crown Vic would trigger a Gas Guzzler tax; the same engine in an Expedition would not.

While police departments have utilized SUVs dating back to Ford's original Bronco; the majority of them were not used for pursuit duties. Such packages were (and still are) referred to as Special Service Packages. These packages, while beefier than their retail counterparts were not pursuit-rated.

I'm not 100% sure regarding Ford's new Utility Interceptor (Explorer) being pursuit-rated; but prior to that, the only pursuit-rated SUV available to law enforcement has been the 2WD Chevy Tahoe PPV. Ford's previous Explorer (2010 & older) and its Expedition packages offered to police, fire department, EMTs, etc. were never pursuit-rated and Ford even went as far as warning agencies that using those vehicles for pursuit purposes would void all warranties.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
I wonder if a CUV would be a reasonable compromise?

Some would argue that is what the new Explorer/Utility Interceptor essentially is. It uses the same D3 platform as the Taurus.
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RE: New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic

Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:45 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 70):
I'm not 100% sure regarding Ford's new Utility Interceptor (Explorer) being pursuit-rated;

It is.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 70):
Ford's previous Explorer (2010 & older) and its Expedition packages offered to police, fire department, EMTs, etc. were never pursuit-rated and Ford even went as far as warning agencies that using those vehicles for pursuit purposes would void all warranties.

The Expedition is fun on the EVOC course   Makes the Crown Vic feel nimble. Lol
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