jcs17
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Let the grand jury and judge decide on evidence before we convict. Haven't we done this enough? The race-baiters like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have so many skeletons in their closets its disgusting. The President is black, the "perp" is Hispanic, it's time to end this stupidity.

American celebrities want us to re-tweet their messages for Trayvon's defense, yet when those douchebags get picked up for a DUI/drug possession/hit-and-run they want us to wait for a (celebrity-friendly) trial or a grand jury testimony before judging them. NBA and NCAA ball players want the same treatment.

By the way, I'd like to applaud Miami high school students for staging a walk out. Hopefully it was during standardized testing.
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Tugger
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:27 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 149):
Which his "stand your ground" ended when Zimmerman was walking back to his SUV.

The witness didn't state that, it was Mr.Zimmerman that did. If you reread the article you quoted you can see that Mr. Zimmerman stated he was going back to his SUV, the witness apparently did not see that. That is the whole problem with this situation, we only really have the "whole story" from the one that is alive.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 149):
Whose lawyer?


Mr. Zimmerman's lawyer had stated that:

Quote:
Meanwhile, a lawyer for the man at the center of the death investigation said Florida's "stand your ground" law doesn't apply to the shooting that killed the teen.

"In my legal opinion, that's not really applicable to this case. The statute on 'stand your ground' is primarily when you're in your house," said Craig Sonner, Zimmerman's attorney.

"This is self-defense, and that's been around for forever -- that you have a right to defend yourself. So the next issue (that) is going to come up is, was he justified in using the amount of force he did?"
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/


Here is my question, if the law applies as such:

- - In any other place where a person “has a right to be,” that person has “no duty to retreat” if attacked and may “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.” - -
http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/freedomli...inion/florida-self-defense-law.htm

So what happens when there are two people that "have the right to be" where they are. And what if each has a reasonable expectation to believe that the other wants to do them harm? They just walk into each other by accident in the street. Who is in the "right"? Is the winner just the person that kills the other first?

Tugg
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Mir
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:56 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 123):
except Trayvon did not see any gun until after he was beating up Zimmerman.

Except that Florida has a concealed carry law. So you never know who might have a gun until it's too late.

Quoting tugger (Reply 151):
So what happens when there are two people that "have the right to be" where they are. And what if each has a reasonable expectation to believe that the other wants to do them harm? They just walk into each other by accident in the street. Who is in the "right"? Is the winner just the person that kills the other first?

Pretty much.

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D L X
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:12 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 151):
Mr. Zimmerman's lawyer had stated that:

He has sense changed his tune to say that the Stand Your Ground law applies and was applied correctly. I'm sure that's what he "meant to say" all along. Otherwise, his client is gonna fry.

Quoting tugger (Reply 151):
So what happens when there are two people that "have the right to be" where they are. And what if each has a reasonable expectation to believe that the other wants to do them harm? They just walk into each other by accident in the street. Who is in the "right"? Is the winner just the person that kills the other first?

Yes. That's yet another reason why this law is an utter disaster of a law.
 
StarAC17
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 124):
And he would have been charged with murder, what's your point?
Quoting CALTECH (Reply 149):
No he wouldn't. Not in Florida. It would be 'self-defense.'

Isn't traditionally pleading self defence, a defence to a murder, assault, voluntary manslaughter charge etc. Similar to for example pleading insanity would be which means it is up to Zimmerman's representation to defend this based on evidence. (Doesn't help that the police department here has no credibility).

If the DA and judge accept this then no charges are filed or any case is dropped..
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CALTECH
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:31 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 151):
The witness didn't state that, it was Mr.Zimmerman that did. If you reread the article you quoted you can see that Mr. Zimmerman stated he was going back to his SUV, the witness apparently did not see that. That is the whole problem with this situation, we only really have the "whole story" from the one that is alive.

Well, the Sanford police say the is one eyewitness who 'saw it all', and they say this witness's account corroborates Zimmerman's account. And Zimmerman says he was going back to his SUV. I would imagine this eyewitness saw Zimmerman going back to his SUV, it will have to be seen. There is one witness who called the 6' 3" Trayvon a little boy, but also said she only heard the gunshot. Lot's of misinformation out there. Think the eyewitness will prove crucial to the events of that horrible night.


Quoting tugger (Reply 151):
Mr. Zimmerman's lawyer had stated that:

Well, your link shows a update of 'updated 11:10 PM EDT, Sat March 24, 2012'

and mine shows a update of 'Updated: 12:12 a.m. Sunday, March 25, 2012 .'

Your link shows,

Quote:
" "In my legal opinion, that's not really applicable to this case. The statute on 'stand your ground' is primarily when you're in your house," said Craig Sonner, Zimmerman's attorney.
"This is self-defense, and that's been around for forever -- that you have a right to defend yourself. So the next issue (that) is going to come up is, was he justified in using the amount of force he did?" "
My link shows,

Quote:
" "Sonner declined to detail what transpired between Zimmerman and the 17-year-old Martin, but he said he believes the case falls under Florida's stand-your-ground law, which dictates that a person has the right to stand his or her ground and "meet force with force" if attacked.
"I believe what the evidence will show is that this case does fall under that," Sonner said. "I believe we have a good case." "

So either one of the two news organizations got it wrong, or the lawyer is starting that lawyer talk.

Quoting tugger (Reply 151):
So what happens when there are two people that "have the right to be" where they are. And what if each has a reasonable expectation to believe that the other wants to do them harm? They just walk into each other by accident in the street. Who is in the "right"? Is the winner just the person that kills the other first?

Seems so. Hopefully the two people would back off and diffuse the situation. It didn't happen in this case. But again, Zimmerman claims to have been walking back to his SUV, then Trayvon attacked him. If Trayvon would have walked away at this point, this shooting might not have happened. But, Zimmerman ends up on the ground with Trayvon on top of him beating him. Zimmerman screams for help to the eyewitness. Shot rings out. Trayvon dies. Eyewitness 'saw it all' according to the Sanford police and corroborates Zimmerman's account. Sanford police believed there was no probable cause to arrest Zimmerman with his and the eyewitness's account of events that night.
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ltbewr
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:31 am

This story and what happened is one of those 'perfect storm' situations that has brought out a number of issues especially as more details come out.

The controversial issues of race and racism in this country including the complex 'code' of how many young Black men are to behave around any White person. A very flawed and easily misinterpreted law in Florida. The obsession as to gun rights by some in this country. The complex human reactions to conflict that can escalate in seconds to violence and death. Problems with crime and not enough police so individuals and groups into protecting their properties and persons. You have black radical groups and even some black citizens and community leader supporting a bypassing of our judical system and potentially cause a violent death of Zimmerman. The use of the media by the family, by those with causes and how the news media itself looking for ratings playing up a story with a mix of hot issues, perhaps overplaying the innocence of Martin and the 'evil' of Zimmerman.

Many things have come together here. Yes, there is a serious issue of how the initial event was ignored until family of Treyvon Martin went to the media believing an injustice had occurred. I wish the national news media and those who are using the national media spotlight would back off, let the Judaical process take place watched by the local and state media and remember that Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty.
 
sbworcs
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:47 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 149):
Neal conviniently left out the fact that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman.
Quoting CALTECH (Reply 149):
Trayvon was beating him pretty good.

Again picking the bits of evidence that suit your idea of what happened. No one knows for defeinite what happened unitl the investigation is complete.

Eye witnesses are notoriously bad at remembering things accorindg to a study carried out by an university in the UK (can;t remember which one but will try and find).

Why then do you take at face value only one side of events?
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par13del
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:23 pm

And with all this I come back to basics.

1. Was Zimmerman in his SUV when he called the cops to make a report
2. Did he follow Martin in his SUV after the cops told him not to engage
3. Was he pulled out of his SUV or did he voluntarilly leave his SUV to confront

Ok, stand your ground says you can protect your property, so Martin was invading Zimmerman property - his watch area - so he decided to stand his ground. If I consider that, the question then is who is in charge of the process, the cops who told him not to confront, or Zimmerman.

If I take Zimmerman, then why did he not perfom the confrontation in the correct manner, we all watch cops and know the process that even rent a cops are taught to use. Draw your weapon on exiting your vehicle, point it at the suspect and tell them to drop to the ground.
Now if you take the crude approach and decide to get in a fight and get beaten, you are like all the rest of petty thugs who loose an argument, then run home get their possy and guns and knives and return to avenge your pride.

Did he even have cuffs or plastic ties, if he did not how exactly was he going to hold and subdue the suspect until the police arrived, did he make the fatal mistake in thinking that he could physically overcome Martin, did he know whether the suspect knew self defence arts, had a gun, a knife or some other form of weapons?

Hence the reason why the professionals - police - have a standard format for approaching a suspect, I may have a fear of guns but when they are drawn, pointed at me and I'm told to get down, any second guesss what we are going to do? Even if not the police, if a man jumps out of an SUV and points a gun at you, how many of us are going to drop to the ground or run away, and how many are going to challenge the man with the gun, especially if we only have skittles and ice tea?
 
D L X
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 155):
Well, the Sanford police say the is one eyewitness who 'saw it all', and they say this witness's account corroborates Zimmerman's account.

Just one problem with the "Secret Witness:"

Why would a man with a gun, who clearly had the ability to use it be screaming for help?

I've noticed that you've accepted the evidence from the Secret Witness with full-throated agreement. I hope you also see that 1) it doesn't add up, 2) the source you cite claims that the Sanford police say it, quote no one. It's very interesting whom you have chosen to believe, like you were waiting for someone, ANYONE, to say something that supports the killer. Why so eager?
 
windy95
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:44 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 151):
So what happens when there are two people that "have the right to be" where they are. And what if each has a reasonable expectation to believe that the other wants to do them harm?




Having a reasonable expectation that someone wants to do harm to you would not be justified as the law is written. Read all parts of the statue.

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or[b]

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—[b]The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force

Quoting D L X (Reply 145):
Right. But it changes the burdens of proof. instead of the proof being presented to a court which then decides whether the proof is enough, now it's all in the sheriff's office.




Is that not the fact in all cases? The Burden of proof being on the Police and the DA? Why is it any different trying to determine whether the force was justifiable or not?

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 149):
Trayvon was beating him pretty good. Should Zimmerman have known when Trayvon was going to stop the beating ? Was Trayvon going to beat him unconscious or to death ? Should Zimmerman have asked Trayvon when he was going to stop beating him ?



Zimmerman created the confrontation. He could of stayed away as the 911 operator told him to do. To say he is the victim is a stretch.

Quoting D L X (Reply 147):
Dude. I really don't want to be anywhere near Florida if he's proven right



How many people have been killed around this country since this happened? Everyone carries something down here and the rate of use is low. To me this is a case of an overzealous dumb-ass who wishes he was cop and should be held culpable for the confrontation he started. It is not about having a right to be where you are. We all have a right to public spaces and do not have the power to threaten someone with bodily harm to make them move along.

Quoting par13del (Reply 158):
so Martin was invading Zimmerman property - his watch area



He was doing no such thing. Trayvon was staying in the same neighborhood and had every right to be walking through the sub-division

Quoting par13del (Reply 158):
so he decided to stand his ground.



Also wrong. Standing his ground would of been staying in his home or in his vehicle and calling the police if he saw a crime being committed. By following and getting out of his vehicle and confronting this young man he loses his whole stand your ground argument. As a neighborhood watch he has no authority to stop a citizen walking through the neighborhood.

Quoting par13del (Reply 158):
If I take Zimmerman, then why did he not perform the confrontation in the correct manner, we all watch cops and know the process that even rent a cops are taught to use. Draw your weapon on exiting your vehicle, point it at the suspect and tell them to drop to the ground.
Quoting par13del (Reply 158):
Did he even have cuffs or plastic ties, if he did not how exactly was he going to hold and subdue the suspect until the police arrived, did he make the fatal mistake in thinking that he could physically overcome Martin, did he know whether the suspect knew self defence arts, had a gun, a knife or some other form of weapons?



Zimmerman had no right or authority for any of this. He should of been patrolling the local mall instead of playing pretend police officer.
 
D L X
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:04 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 160):
Is that not the fact in all cases? The Burden of proof being on the Police and the DA? Why is it any different trying to determine whether the force was justifiable or not?

No, I wasn't clear.

In every other case, the evidence is presented to the court to be tested by the judge and jury. In this case, the immunity aspect of the case means that only the Sheriff (or DA, but not the court) gets to decide whether or not the killer can be prosecuted.

That is the purpose of this law: to make sure that people who use deadly force do not have to go to court if they reasonably believed their lives were in danger or used it to prevent a felony.

The differences are pretty stark between judicial review and police department review. At a court, a whole lot more people can present evidence, and all parties can attack the evidence that is presented. At the police department, you're limited to the evidence the police had found at the time, and no representatives of the killer or the deceased are available to argue about evidence up or down. That in my opnion is why this is being tried in the media: that's the only place the families can go.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 160):
Quoting D L X (Reply 147):
Dude. I really don't want to be anywhere near Florida if he's proven right



How many people have been killed around this country since this happened?

Oh, that's not what I mean. What I'm saying is that it appears that an innocent kid was killed by a cop wannabe. And if he gets off because of this law, I would predict riots. I don't want to be anywhere near that.

(FOr what it's worth, I think this law will be gone the next day also.)

Quoting windy95 (Reply 160):
Everyone carries something down here and the rate of use is low.

That is completely irrelevant if this case ends up showing that the few that do use it can claim immunity when they use it on the wrong person.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 160):
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—[b]The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force

Good catch. The key, in my opinion, is section (2), initially provoking the use of force against himself. Zimmerman got out of the car and instigated a fight. That should be the part of the law that prevents Zimmerman from getting immunity.

[Edited 2012-03-25 07:08:02]
 
StarAC17
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 158):
Ok, stand your ground says you can protect your property, so Martin was invading Zimmerman property - his watch area - so he decided to stand his ground. If I consider that, the question then is who is in charge of the process, the cops who told him not to confront, or Zimmerman.

Since it has been stressed he is the "Self appointed" watch man, it becomes clear (as reported) he is not a paid nor volunteer security guard whom is being employed by the people in this gated community or volunteering.

Quoting par13del (Reply 158):
If I take Zimmerman, then why did he not perfom the confrontation in the correct manner, we all watch cops and know the process that even rent a cops are taught to use. Draw your weapon on exiting your vehicle, point it at the suspect and tell them to drop to the ground.

Because he appears not to be the sharpest knife in the drawer. If Zimmerman was effective at all in secuity methods with or without a badge he would not have had to make 40+ 911 calls about suspicious people in the past and would have learned a thing or two about how to do it properly.

The cops strategy is fine to have the weapon drawn but that is when they are going into something dangerous such as an altercation in progress. Just asking someone on the street at night wouldn't warrant drawing a weapon, if if did escalate will that is why cops have partners.
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par13del
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 160):
He was doing no such thing. Trayvon was staying in the same neighborhood and had every right to be walking through the sub-division

.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 160):
Also wrong. Standing his ground would of been staying in his home or in his vehicle and calling the police if he saw a crime being committed.

Fully aware that both were in their rightful place, my points were quesions to try to understand how the stand your ground defense applied.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 160):
By following and getting out of his vehicle and confronting this young man he loses his whole stand your ground argument.

Except no one is talking about nor was he charged with stalking which one can say he was doing, so far all we have heard is self defense based on stand your ground. Indeed very little is said about how and why Mr. Zimmerman left his vehicle, it seems that all have accepted that instructions by 911 to not confront were irrelevant. If he had stayed in his vehicle until police arrived would Martin still be alive, could this be a mitigating factor?

I think this also illustrates some police and DA crime resolution procedures, someone comes up with a theory and all effort and resources are then put in place to confirm the theory, alternatives are only looked at if found evidence indicates that the initial theory is wrong / flawed.
 
windy95
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 161):
At a court, a whole lot more people can present evidence, and all parties can attack the evidence that is presented. At the police department, you're limited to the evidence the police had found at the time, and no representatives of the killer or the deceased are available to argue about evidence up or down.



But is this not the same as a case not making it to court due to the lack of evidence. we see murders all the time that happen and pretty much everyone knows who did it but they do not have the evidence to press charges. Maybe I am looking at this from the wrong direction but I would have to trust in the DA's and States Attorneys to look through the claim of immunity and make sure it is right. Present the evidence to a grand jury and see if they believe the claim of self defense. If i read right I believe that is what is happening at the state level for this case right now.

Quoting D L X (Reply 161):
Oh, that's not what I mean. What I'm saying is that it appears that an innocent kid was killed by a cop wannabe. And if he gets off because of this law, I would predict riots. I don't want to be anywhere near that



Understand and agree.

Quoting D L X (Reply 161):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 160):
Everyone carries something down here and the rate of use is low.

That is completely irrelevant if this case ends up showing that the few that do use it can claim immunity when they use it on the wrong person.



Maybe I trust to much in the belief that the police, DA's and States attorneys will what is proper in this portion of the law. But I would think as in any other case if they do not have the evidence to show that is was not what the person claims it to be then they cannot press charges.

Quoting D L X (Reply 161):
Good catch. The key, in my opinion, is section (2), initially provoking the use of force against himself. Zimmerman got out of the car and instigated a fight. That should be the part of the law that prevents Zimmerman from getting immunity.



And that is why I think he fails the litmus test when it comes to this law and does not deserve immunity. As far as what charge would be appropriate I would not know because they would then have to factor in other causes during the escalation between the two.

Quoting D L X (Reply 159):
Just one problem with the "Secret Witness:"

Why would a man with a gun, who clearly had the ability to use it be screaming for help?



Good question. Of course this all rumor but they say Zimmerman was attacked from behind. So maybe taken unaware the initial surprise and shock created this and it took him a moment to respond. But he still should not of been there and out of his vehicle due to this teen just wandering through the neighborhood. If everyone in Orlando called 911 about a suspicous black, hispanic or white kid with a hoodie wandering around their neighborhood the 911 system would be overwhelmed. For a reason that only he knows he reacted to this teen.

Quoting par13del (Reply 163):
Except no one is talking about nor was he charged with stalking which one can say he was doing, so far all we have heard is self defense based on stand your ground. Indeed very little is said about how and why Mr. Zimmerman left his vehicle, it seems that all have accepted that instructions by 911 to not confront were irrelevant. If he had stayed in his vehicle until police arrived would Martin still be alive, could this be a mitigating factor?



Sorry but you sem to be missing part of the story. Zimmerman in fact followed Trayvon and called 911 while doing so. After being told by 911 not to follow he continued to do so to the point that he left his vehicle to confront him. Also Trayvon called his girlfriend and was concerned that this man was following him. So according to the statute Zimmerman fails on two parts.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 160):
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—[b]The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or



Zimmerman has every opportunity to keep his distance until police arrived from his 911 call. No one was in danger. He place himself there so his right to immunity should be waived. Trayvon may have hit him first but the meeting did not need to happen. Zimmerman initiated and did not use every reasonable means to escape danger. he in fact placed himself in the danger zone if he deemed Trayvon to be a criminal.
 
windy95
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 155):
Shot rings out. Trayvon dies. Eyewitness 'saw it all' according to the Sanford police and corroborates Zimmerman's account. Sanford police believed there was no probable cause to arrest Zimmerman with his and the eyewitness's account of events that night.



Because they failed to factor in Zimmerman's following and confronting Trayvon in the first place. If you leave that out then maybe it is a clear cut self defense but you cannot. They just accounted for what happened over that portion of time. Maybe not taking into account the 911 call and even the info from Trayvon's phone call with his girlfriend letting her know that he was being followed and perhaps felt threatened himself when this mall cop wannabe confronted him. When you add it all together it may not add up to murder but he should be culpable for a portion of this incident since he was the initiator. Dead men tell no tales but Trayvon's phone call sure does add to what was going through his mind before this incident.
 
Flighty
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 164):
Trayvon may have hit him first but the meeting did not need to happen.

Sorry but if the young man hit Zimmerman first, he was engaging in an assault (a crime) and Zimmerman's right to stand his ground would have been activated. It may be more nuanced than that, but that is the general idea we get from DLX's post.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 164):
He place himself there

The whole point of stand your ground is that you can locate yourself at any location you choose within bounds of the law. If somebody then begins assaulting you, green light for the weapon. Maybe not quite that easily, but pretty close.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting sbworcs (Reply 157):
Again picking the bits of evidence that suit your idea of what happened. No one knows for defeinite what happened unitl the investigation is complete.
Eye witnesses are notoriously bad at remembering things according to a study carried out by an university in the UK (can;t remember which one but will try and find).
Why then do you take at face value only one side of events?

So the police got it all wrong, the detectives got it all wrong, the witness got it all wrong, Zimmerman is lying. It is what was reported locally here. But folks who weren't there have it right and it's a vast conspiracy. Sure.


Quoting D L X (Reply 159):
Why would a man with a gun, who clearly had the ability to use it be screaming for help?

Maybe because he didn't want to shoot ? Maybe because he was getting beat ? If you have the answer, please share.

I yelled for help in incidents where I had my gun on me. Did not want to pull it. Didn't have to, as help came in one incident, and my dogs showed up in another.

Quoting D L X (Reply 159):
I've noticed that you've accepted the evidence from the Secret Witness with full-throated agreement. I hope you also see that 1) it doesn't add up, 2) the source you cite claims that the Sanford police say it, quote no one. It's very interesting whom you have chosen to believe, like you were waiting for someone, ANYONE, to say something that supports the killer. Why so eager?

I've been so wrong. I'm gonna believe the Rev. Al Sharpton, even though he wasn't there, he was so crystal clear on Tawana Brawley's rape. These folks are stirring up racial tensions, there's no need for that. What are they going to do if they do not like the outcome of the new investigation ? Retaliation ? Riots ? Why is there such a eagerness to discount a eyewitness and Zimmerman ? Everything did add up. Some folks just do not like the way it added up. That is why there was no arrest. Seems like you were waiting for the usual national figures to turn this into something it is not. And it seems you have discounted everything of the eyewitness and Zimmerman's account of events. Their accounts match each other. That is why there was no arrest. Some must believe they know better than the folks that were there.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 160):
Having a reasonable expectation that someone wants to do harm to you would not be justified as the law is written. Read all parts of the statue.

Assault and Battery. You've proven the point of Zimmerman using self-defense. According to Zimmerman and possibly the eyewitness, Zimmerman was hit first, then beaten on the ground.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 160):
Zimmerman created the confrontation. He could of stayed away as the 911 operator told him to do. To say he is the victim is a stretch.

Getting beaten up because you ask a stranger what he is doing in your neighborhood, is justification for getting assaulted and battered ? While on the ground ? You are reaching, really reaching. If a neighbor came out and saw Trayvon and followed him, then asked him what he was doing in the neighborhood, that would be justification for Trayvon to assault and batter the neighbor on the ground ? That is a big old long stretch. Why Trayvon did not walk away at that point ended up costing him his life. Trayvon had a duty to walk away too. It is horrible that he paid for this misjudgement with his life. A terrible night.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 160):
He was doing no such thing. Trayvon was staying in the same neighborhood and had every right to be walking through the sub-division

But he did not have the right to assault and batter Zimmerman as Zimmerman was walking away. Trayvon was a stranger in the community, being suspended from school down in Miami, and up for a visit.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 160):
Also wrong. Standing his ground would of been staying in his home or in his vehicle and calling the police if he saw a crime being committed. By following and getting out of his vehicle and confronting this young man he loses his whole stand your ground argument. As a neighborhood watch he has no authority to stop a citizen walking through the neighborhood.

No he doesn't. Self-defense comes into play too.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 160):
Zimmerman had no right or authority for any of this. He should of been patrolling the local mall instead of playing pretend police officer.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 164):
Trayvon may have hit him first but the meeting did not need to happen.

That is called Assault and Battery. When was Trayvon going to stop hitting ? When Zimmerman lost conciousness, or died ? Self-Defense. Especially if it is true that Trayvon followed and beat Zimmerman to the ground.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 165):
Because they failed to factor in Zimmerman's following and confronting Trayvon in the first place. If you leave that out then maybe it is a clear cut self defense but you cannot. They just accounted for what happened over that portion of time. Maybe not taking into account the 911 call and even the info from Trayvon's phone call with his girlfriend letting her know that he was being followed and perhaps felt threatened himself when this mall cop wannabe confronted him. When you add it all together it may not add up to murder but he should be culpable for a portion of this incident since he was the initiator. Dead men tell no tales but Trayvon's phone call sure does add to what was going through his mind before this incident.

So that excuses Trayvon's beating of Zimmerman ? So if someone follows me and asks me what I am doing, I can go ahead and beat them silly, knock them to the ground and start pummeling them. Inane argument. The girlfriend also claimed;

“He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man. I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.”

Only Trayvon knew what he was thinking at this point.

“Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn’t answer the phone.”

Sounds reasonable. Trayvon asked why he was being followed and Zimmerman asked him what he was doing there. Nothing wrong with any of that. The events after that, that's where it went horribly wrong. The girlfriends comes up with Trayvon being pushed because his headset just fell. She is conjecturing events. She was not there. Could as well have been Trayvon pulling his headset down or off just before he hit Zimmerman. She is not too credible as she wasn't there. Would like to see the entire eyewitness 'John' statement about the events of that night.
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:38 pm

Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 168):
This is really sad,if true.

Not surprising, as is the New Black Panthers' "bounty" of $10,000 they have placed on Zimmerman's head.

I am also interested in how Zimmerman has been portrayed in the press as a "WHITE Hispanic". Since when are Hispanics segregated by color? Seems awfully convenient...

Looks like the haters are out in force these days.
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:25 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 169):
Not surprising, as is the New Black Panthers' "bounty" of $10,000 they have placed on Zimmerman's head.

I am also interested in how Zimmerman has been portrayed in the press as a "WHITE Hispanic". Since when are Hispanics segregated by color? Seems awfully convenient...

Looks like the haters are out in force these days.

None of that is right because Violence should not be a reason for more violence and this has nothing to do with the black panthers so they need to get out of it.

What you have to realize though is that situations like this arises when people feel like an injustice has been done, and looking at this case, it appears to be such a huge miscarriage of justice that a 3 year old could see it. but the entire Sanford Police department missed it? It just doesn't make any sense and people aren't happy about it.
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 170):
What you have to realize though is that situations like this arises when people feel like an injustice has been done, and looking at this case, it appears to be such a huge miscarriage of justice that a 3 year old could see it.

But what if the injustice was fabricated? There are many people in this country who live and profit from racial animosity and mistrust - people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Farakan, and even the Democratic party as a whole. The LAST thing they want is everyone living and working together peacefully and nobody even thinking about another person's race, because that hurts them financially and politically.

It seems to me that the evidence is mounting that Zimmerman shot Martin in self defense. Eye-witnesses corroborates that, the condition of the gun corroborates that, and the fact that Zimmerman's clothes indicate that he was on the losing end of a struggle. But that won't stop the haters from doing everything they can to get Zimmerman lynched (literally, if not figuratively).
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 168):
This is really sad,if true.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/spik...ress/

That is truly disturbing. It is absolutely shameful that Spike Lee did this. But, that's going to be just another one of the sideshows that detractors are going to point to to avoid discussing the real issues.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 169):
I am also interested in how Zimmerman has been portrayed in the press as a "WHITE Hispanic".
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 169):
Since when are Hispanics segregated by color?

Sounds like someone who doesn't watch baseball, has never been to Miami, or the Dominican, or Cuba, or South America, or, oh, just pick your favorite place where the Hispanics aren't all Mexicans. Hispanics can be of any race. Why is the media reporting that he's a White Hispanic?

BECAUSE THE POLICE DID.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 171):
people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Farakan

None of whom were involved until very recently. Why do you point to them to detract against a story now going almost a month long? It is as if you are saying that their mere presence means the whole story is a fabrication. Actually, that IS what you are saying.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 171):
and even the Democratic party as a whole.

And you're chasing the rabbit down the political hole, I see.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 171):
It seems to me that the evidence is mounting that Zimmerman shot Martin in self defense. Eye-witnesses corroborates that,

This is how it starts:

one person says they have a secret witness that proves it's all a coverup. But they do not cite a source, and do not divulge the information. They just say they have it, and you don't. The next step is to repeat the story to people who will leave out that it was a secret witness. The next step is that those people will report that "Eye-witnessES corroborate," like you just did.

So, please, cite your sources.

FACT: MANY people have come forward saying that they witnessed Zimmerman attack Martin. These people have been on television and given their names.* So, why do you choose to believe the Secret Witness over the ones that come public with what they know?


*
http://themoderatevoice.com/142578/n...d-down-trayvon-after-shooting-him/
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/2696446/trayvon-martin-case.html
http://loop21.com/life/trayvon-martin-witnesses-cries-gunshots

You are absolutely right that none of us were there, but if I'm on a jury, I'm going to believe someone who puts her story out and signs her name on it by allowing her name and face to be published over someone who says they talked to a secret someone who says something else.
 
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:53 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 172):

one person says they have a secret witness that proves it's all a coverup. But they do not cite a source, and do not divulge the information. They just say they have it, and you don't. The next step is to repeat the story to people who will leave out that it was a secret witness. The next step is that those people will report that "Eye-witnessES corroborate," like you just did.

So, please, cite your sources.

FACT: MANY people have come forward saying that they witnessed Zimmerman attack Martin. These people have been on television and given their names.* So, why do you choose to believe the Secret Witness over the ones that come public with what they know?
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

Quote:
“The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: ‘help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911,” he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

The witness only wanted to be identified as “John,” and didn’t not want to be shown on camera.

His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman’s claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.

“When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point,” John said.

Zimmerman says the shooting was self defense. According to information released on the Sanford city website, Zimmerman said he was going back to his SUV when he was attacked by the teen.

Sanford police say Zimmerman was bloody in his face and head, and the back of his shirt was wet and had grass stains, indicating a struggle took place before the shooting.

WE might not have this witness' name, but the police do. I can't blame the witness for not wanting to come forward. Some people would certainly want to see HIM lynched as well.

Then you have one of the original witnesses who helped start this whole mess, recanting her original story.

Quote:
Sanford police on Thursday also challenged a WFTV-Channel 9 report, in which Mary Cutcher said police largely ignored her even though she told them, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling."

Police said they twice tried to interview her without success, and the third time, she wrote a very short sworn statement for her roommate that was consistent with Zimmerman's account.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...rman-letter-unarmed-black-teenager

And then there is this:

Quote:
The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism. This would indicate, as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired. This would clearly change the shape of the case.
http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/Massa...-trayvon-martin-what-we-dont-know/

From the condition of the gun, it would appear that there was a struggle, and somebody's hand was wrapped around it in a way that would prevent the gun cycling.

So it appears that it was Zimmerman (not Martin - as has been reported) that was crying out for help, and that he was on the losing side of a fistfight when the gun went off, either intentionally as self-defense, or by accident as part of the struggle.

Of course we don't know all the details yet, but one thing is for damned sure - the race-baiters calling for Zimmerman's head, or painting Martin as an innocent victim (which includes pres Obama last week, who once again put his nose where it doesn't belong, portraying martin as the victim - shades of "The police acted stupidly".

Sarah Palin was said to be directly responsible for the shooting of Rep Giffords last year. Proven to be completely and utterly false, but that doesn't stop the left from trying to take advantage of it - because they know the accusations will get a lot of air time but the refutations and retractions later will get almost none. Same thing here.

Quote:
Now Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich, Rick Santorum and even Mitt Romney are responsible for the killing of Martin:
http://www.mrctv.org/videos/msnbcs-k...ethal-consequences-florida-killing

We don't know everything - maybe never will. Maybe Martin was the innocent victim, there seems to be some evidence to point that way - particularly the fact that Zimmerman did have the option of backing away and letting him go. But there is also a lot of evidence to the contrary, and what I am pointing out is in the absence of the complete facts, you have the race-baiters and the leftists out in force, because they know the tactic works in the press and among certain politically valuable populations to advance their cause - to promote racial tension for their own political and financial benefit.
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:27 pm

Charles, you wrote a very good reply at first, then you screwed it all up with all this political nonsense. I'm not going to respond to your post when you take it political. There is nothing political about this. Palin, Limbaugh, Gingrich and Romney? Come on, man. When you take it political, it shows that you are deadset on taking it off topic, and not worth me spending the effort to respond to you.
 
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 171):
It seems to me that the evidence is mounting that Zimmerman shot Martin in self defense. Eye-witnesses corroborates that, the condition of the gun corroborates that, and the fact that Zimmerman's clothes indicate that he was on the losing end of a struggle. But that won't stop the haters from doing everything they can to get Zimmerman lynched (literally, if not figuratively).

Well we'll let the justice system decide. He should never have pursued Martin or gotten out of his vehicle, period!

Quoting D L X (Reply 172):
So, why do you choose to believe the Secret Witness over the ones that come public with what they know?

Because it furthers their point that racism no longer exists in this country. Every time there is a hate crime on account of racism, these guys work overtime to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it has everything to do with something else BUT racism.

But here's what I believe. If Martin had somehow gotten into it with Zimmerman, and the gun went off and Zimmerman was shot, based on what I see everyday and what I believe...Martin would be in Jail right this second facing murder charges. It's an unjust country sometimes, but it's ridiculous situations like this that make people do dumb things like post someone's address and put a bounty on someone's head. I'm not saying it's right at all, but the justice system needs to wake up and stop the discrimination against disenfranchised blacks in this country. Then and only then, Charles can we really say that racism and discrimination on behalf of prejudice belief is going away.
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 174):
Charles, you wrote a very good reply at first, then you screwed it all up with all this political nonsense. I'm not going to respond to your post when you take it political. There is nothing political about this. Palin, Limbaugh, Gingrich and Romney? Come on, man. When you take it political, it shows that you are deadset on taking it off topic, and not worth me spending the effort to respond to you.

I'm not the one who made it political. MSNBC and other media, plus Obama and other political figures who did it.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 175):
Well we'll let the justice system decide. He should never have pursued Martin or gotten out of his vehicle, period!

Getting out of his vehicle is a crime? being a concerned neighbor is a crime? I'm not saying he's faultless, but you seem to say that unless one is a police officer, one must never get involved.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 175):
Because it furthers their point that racism no longer exists in this country. Every time there is a hate crime on account of racism, these guys work overtime to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it has everything to do with something else BUT racism.

Sure there is racism, but that does not mean that every incident purported to be racist is such. People who know Zimmerman indicate that he is anything but racist.

There is certainly racism in this country (and in all countries that I have been to - the vast majority of which the racism is a lot worse, if dampened by their relative homogeniality). But why does the Zimmerman-Martin case get all the press and this one does not?

http://www.kmbc.com/news/30572405/detail.html#ixzz1pyghjiK5

Quote:
KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- A 13-year-old Kansas City boy is back home after two teenagers poured gasoline on him and lit him on fire.

It happened Tuesday at the teen's home on Quincy Avenue, just down the street from Kansas City's East High School. The boy lives less than two blocks away from the school and was walking home when the attack happened.

Melissa Coon said her son turned from the school's stadium onto Quincy Avenue and noticed two teenagers following him. She said the teens followed her son home and attacked him outside his front door.

"And they rushed him on the porch as he tried to get the door open," she said. "(One of them) poured the gasoline, then flicked the Bic, and said, 'This is what you deserve. You get what you deserve, white boy'."

There have been no arrests to date. Don't you think that if the victim was black, and the attackers white (instead of the reverse), people would be screaming from the rooftops? Why is that?
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:28 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 176):
I'm not the one who made it political. MSNBC and other media, plus Obama and other political figures who did it.

Two things:
Then stop. You do not need to contribute and add to "the politics". You are bright and can make many strong points while avoiding "going political". Because others have done it does not mean you have to or should.
Also do not only point fingers in one direction, when you mention politics offer examples from both sides of the political spectrum rather than just one. You have often mentioned that you can't stand either side and how the politicians of the two main party's have failed to do their job.

Politics, more accurately "political bickering" is killing this country. People are so focused on, and obsessed with, politics and what "the other side" did wrong that we end up arguing about idiotic crap and not discussing the goddamned problems and finding a solution.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-03-26 10:31:22]
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:37 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 176):
There have been no arrests to date. Don't you think that if the victim was black, and the attackers white (instead of the reverse), people would be screaming from the rooftops? Why is that?

Of course I do, and of course the media would be adding to the racism. But that case is different than this one in the fact that we have a suspect in this case. A suspect that was cleared of any wrongdoing after a not so thorough investigation by the Sanford Police department.

If Martin was white and Zimmerman black, do you think Zimmerman would have gotten off that easily? Come on be serious. The basic facts are known as, Zimmerman followed Martin, he was the aggressor and Martin is now dead. Wouldn't that make Martin the one reacting in self defense?
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:02 pm

On the one side you state, quite rightly, that we don't know all the facts

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 173):
We don't know everything - maybe never will. Maybe Martin was the innocent victim, there seems to be some evidence to point that way - particularly the fact that Zimmerman did have the option of backing away and letting him go. But there is also a lot of evidence to the contrary, and what I am pointing out is in the absence of the complete facts

Yet on the other hand state

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 173):
So it appears that it was Zimmerman (not Martin - as has been reported) that was crying out for help, and that he was on the losing side of a fistfight

So either we know or don't? Which is it,

I can't say either way what happened or did not happen as I was not there. Witnesses on both sides are offering wildly differing tales. Some public witnesses some private ones.

There are only 2 people that know everything that happened and unfortunatley one of them is no longer alive to tell their side.

I just hope that the investigation is thorough and that Zimmerman is prosecuted if that is what the evidence says or not if otherise. I really hope this does not get too political but both extreme sides of the argument are entrenched in their opinion and guilt / innocence is already proved to them.
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 178):

Of course I do, and of course the media would be adding to the racism. But that case is different than this one in the fact that we have a suspect in this case. A suspect that was cleared of any wrongdoing after a not so thorough investigation by the Sanford Police department.

He has not been 'cleared of any wrongdoing'. That's a final judgement. As far as I can tell, they have not arrested him because there is insufficient proof that he did anything wrong. That does not mean that the investigation is over, or that they can't decide tomorrow to bring him in.

Quoting sbworcs (Reply 179):
So either we know or don't? Which is it,

Which is why I repeatedly use the phrase "it appears that...". Those are the impressions I get reading what I've seen - hardly evidence material, but when you get enough such impressions together you start building at least a circumstantial case. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and it keeps walking and quacking like a duck from numerous viewpoints, eventually you must conclude that it is indeed a duck.
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 176):
I'm not the one who made it political. MSNBC and other media, plus Obama and other political figures who did it.

  

Obama was asked a question, to which he responded. In fact, as the Attorney General's boss, the office that he is in charge of is directly involved in the matter. It is not a political issue just because it involves Presidential responsibilities.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 176):
But why does the Zimmerman-Martin case get all the press and this one does not?

Because the killer was let free.

It's pretty obvious, really.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 176):
Getting out of his vehicle is a crime? being a concerned neighbor is a crime?

Not a crime, but it probably negates self-defense. You can't go up to someone armed with a deadly weapon and then claim self-defense.

Quoting tugger (Reply 177):
Then stop. You do not need to contribute and add to "the politics". You are bright and can make many strong points while avoiding "going political". Because others have done it does not mean you have to or should.

  

These things that we learn as second graders are so often forgotten by the time we are adults.

Quoting tugger (Reply 177):
Politics, more accurately "political bickering" is killing this country. People are so focused on, and obsessed with, politics and what "the other side" did wrong that we end up arguing about idiotic crap and not discussing the goddamned problems and finding a solution.

  

I really don't think it can be said any better than this.
 
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 181):
Not a crime, but it probably negates self-defense. You can't go up to someone armed with a deadly weapon and then claim self-defense.

I thought stand your ground is a different standard from self defense. If you are a victim of a crime, you can stop the crime using the weapon, over and above the existing self defense statutes (non lawyer here).
 
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 171):
But what if the injustice was fabricated? There are many people in this country who live and profit from racial animosity and mistrust - people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Farakan, and even the Democratic party as a whole. The LAST thing they want is everyone living and working together peacefully and nobody even thinking about another person's race, because that hurts them financially and politically.
Voter suppression anyone.

I guess you are defending the Stanford PDs inaction to even investigate of the shooting. Why can't the right denounce the killing of a kid whose only crime was carrying skittles and an ice tea, and just admit he should have not been chased down and shot. Even the creator of the Castle (Stand Your Ground) law is not defending Zimmerman or sugest the law should not apply for him. Geeze where is the justice for him in the right.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 176):
I'm not the one who made it political. MSNBC and other media, plus Obama and other political figures who did it.


Yes you have as well as Newt and Santorum. Giraldo is taking a step even worse, directly attributing his death on hoody and has doubled down recently. Why can't Obama say anything about the subject? The right will accuse him as they have as been a race baiter like Newt Gingrich has.

[Edited 2012-03-26 12:34:52]
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:12 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 182):
I thought stand your ground is a different standard from self defense. If you are a victim of a crime, you can stop the crime using the weapon, over and above the existing self defense statutes (non lawyer here).

You don't even have to be the victim. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

- Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
- Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.

Since the Castle Law does not apply here (it only applies on your property or at your place of business), the only way that Zimmerman would be legal in shooting Martin is if they were struggling after Zimmerman had challenged him, and Martin was getting the upper hand, and seemed to be intent on causing serious bodily harm. That could well apply here because of the fact that Zimmerman was apparently on his back and had trauma to the back of his head, as if Martin was bashing his head into the ground. It SEEMS to me like that is what happened - I could be wrong. If that is not what happened, and Zimmerman shot without being in fear for his life or limb, nor anyone else's, then he's in trouble.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

To me, the key bits of evidence are 1) the state of the gun (fired but the slide prevented from reloading - evidence that they were in very close combat), 2) the the grass stains (evidence that Zimmerman was losing the fight), and 3) Zimmerman's head wound, which could arguably be evidence that Martin was trying to bash his brains out - which in itself would justify self-defense. The key is the head wound - I haven't seen pictures of that nor do I know if a forensics expert can draw that conclusion. But the theory seems to fit what the witnesses have said.
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futurepilot16
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 180):
He has not been 'cleared of any wrongdoing'.

Umm actually, yes he was, by the Sanford police department, which is what prompted all the outrage

Quoting Flighty (Reply 182):
I thought stand your ground is a different standard from self defense. If you are a victim of a crime, you can stop the crime using the weapon, over and above the existing self defense statutes (non lawyer here).

Exactly, but today Zimmerman's lawyer claims that he will use this Stand your ground policy as his defense. It's almost laughable. Who was the aggressor here? Zimmerman or Martin?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 184):
the only way that Zimmerman would be legal in shooting Martin is if they were struggling after Zimmerman had challenged him, and Martin was getting the upper hand,

Please for the love of god explain to me why Zimmerman had "Challenged him" in the first place? Did the dispatcher not tell Zimmerman not to pursue Martin? A few minutes and a uniformed officer would have been on the scene to settle the situation. Zimmerman put himself in a situation where Martin was forced to defend himself...he saw that he was losing so he decided to go for broke and pull the trigger.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 184):
2) the the grass stains (evidence that Zimmerman was losing the fight),

I wish you would answer why there was a fight in the first place, I would just really like to hear your opinion on that

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 184):
3) Zimmerman's head wound, which could arguably be evidence that Martin was trying to bash his brains out

He wouldn't have had a head wound if he didn't try to play cop and get out of the car. At the least he should be charged with negligent homicide...forget all this hate crime stuff.

[Edited 2012-03-26 12:19:27]
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Dreadnought
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 185):
Umm actually, yes he was, by the Sanford police department, which is what prompted all the outrage

Do you have a source? All I have seen is that they have not filed charges, but that doesn't mean that there is no more investigation or that charges might not come later.

Or should we arrest first and ask questions later? Slight constitutional problem there.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 185):
Who was the aggressor here? Zimmerman or Martin?

That's the big question. If Zimmerman challenged Martin from a distance, and Martin responded by attacking him (as is alleged), then yes, Martin is the attacker.
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JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 178):
The basic facts are known as, Zimmerman followed Martin, he was the aggressor and Martin is now dead. Wouldn't that make Martin the one reacting in self defense?

  

If he was on with his girlfriend as has been suggested, he mentioned he is being followed. If he is being followed, one could then believe he would be in danger and if there was an altercation, Martin was acting is self defense.

From all I have seen, it seems like Zimmerman is the one that started the whole thing by getting out of his car. As someone who was supposedly a Neighborhood Watch captain, you are supposed to only be a set of eyes and if something is out of the ordinary, you are supposed to call 911 and not be armed. If he was following the teenager as has been reported (and him admitting to on the 911 tape), it would seem he was the one instigating the situation.

I don't know how it will play out, but I think a lot of people are just upset that he was never initially arrested and the Sanford PD flat out said that it was a case of self defense. If it is, fine, but the police's job is to investigate and collect evidence then pass it to the prosecutor to determine what should be charged or not. If the local prosecutor came out and said, we will not file charges because of reasons X,Y, Z, people might not be as upset. But to have things unfold the way they did, with the police saying it, which shouldn't be their job.
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 186):
Or should we arrest first and ask questions later? Slight constitutional problem there.

Not at all. The Constitution allows for detaining pending investigation in most conditions, including this one. All you need is probable cause. A confession is probable cause.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 186):

Do you have a source? All I have seen is that they have not filed charges, but that doesn't mean that there is no more investigation or that charges might not come later.

I will admit that I don't have a source, but last week I read somewhere that the chief of the Sanford PD, said that at this time, they had investigated the crime and are calling it a case of self defense. It was on MSNBC, but I don't have a source, if I find it i'll gladly post the link

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 186):
That's the big question. If Zimmerman challenged Martin from a distance, and Martin responded by attacking him (as is alleged), then yes, Martin is the attacker.

Then we just gotta wait and see

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 187):
Sanford PD flat out said that it was a case of self defense.

I swear to you that I read the same thing too. I'll try and search for the article
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 188):
Not at all. The Constitution allows for detaining pending investigation in most conditions, including this one. All you need is probable cause. A confession is probable cause.

But only for a short amount of time (like 24 hours) unless charges are brought. Remember that detentions are voluntary unless you verbally ask to leave. Any time police detain you, it's a good idea to ask if you're free to go. If the officer says you may leave, it's up to you to leave the scene of the encounter. If you choose to stay, the detention is automatically legal. If they say you can't leave, then basically you are under arrest, and they have to read you your rights etc. And if you are under arrest, then they have to bring up charges within another 24 hours or so.
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 190):
But only for a short amount of time (like 24 hours) unless charges are brought.

He confessed to killing someone. You can hold him until arraignment.

[Edited 2012-03-26 14:16:33]
 
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 191):
He confessed to killing someone. You can hold him until arraignment.

Killing someone is not necessarily illegal, as we all know (i.e self-defence). And anyone must be arraigned within 24 hours of arrest (unless arrested on a weekend or holiday when a judge cannot be present, where it can be dragged out to 72 hours). But being released does not mean that charges can't come later - it just means that the cops can't keep you in the dungeon while they jerk off.
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PSA53
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:56 pm

Both Google and Yahoo are changing they're tune about Martin and the case.You know,a lot media folks are going to get black eye for this story.And I hope it serves as a big lesson for mainstream media that they're too much social media out there to keep people honest because it was really was scary there for a while.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

[Edited 2012-03-26 15:10:28]
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:01 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 192):
Killing someone is not necessarily illegal, as we all know (i.e self-defence)

It is probable cause. That is the standard. Not convictability.
 
windy95
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 193):
Both Google and Yahoo are changing they're tune about Martin and the case.

Also on the local news here in Orlando today thye have stated that the current suspension from school was for possesion of marijuana. Also the image of Trayvon and Zimmerman that have been used by the media for weeks are 5 to 7 years old.

Also being reported is some info which would probably change many views including mine on this case. It is in the local news that Zimmerman never approached Trayvon and in fact was heading back to his vehicle because he had lost sight of Trayvon and was approached by Trayvon and then the altercation ensued. And could be the reason why the Sanford police let him go with the self defense claim. We really will have to wait until all the info comes out.
 
windy95
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:48 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 194):
It is probable cause. That is the standard. Not convictability.

Maybe police are worried about lawsuits? If it looks like self defense they really have no right to hold someone and could open themselves to a possible civil suit.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 195):
Also on the local news here in Orlando today thye have stated that the current suspension from school was for possesion of marijuana.

And your point is?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 195):
It is in the local news that Zimmerman never approached Trayvon and in fact was heading back to his vehicle because he had lost sight of Trayvon and was approached by Trayvon and then the altercation ensued.

I'll believe it when it's verified by an official police source
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
PSA53
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:34 am

CNN's Anderson Cooper just interview the terrorist black panther leader in the Martin case.It no doubt be repeated on Anderson's 360 program.I wasn't surprised by it because it was everything that I expected in a man and group of pure hate.Overall,Cooper,as other media,is cover this one cover to cover.

Black panthers are terrorists,as the KKK.

[Edited 2012-03-26 18:00:37]
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futurepilot16
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RE: Trayvon Martin Case...Will Shooter Get Prosecuted?

Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:11 am

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 198):

CNN's Anderson Cooper just interview the terrorist black panther leader in the Martin case.It no doubt be repeated on Anderson's 360 program.I wasn't surprised by it because it was everything that I expected in a man and group of pure hate.Overall,Cooper,as other media,is cover this one cover to cover.

Black panthers are terrorists,as the KKK.

Looks like you wrote it in Anger, i'm sure Anderson meant well.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."

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