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alberchico
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Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:36 am

http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/...-armstrong-formally-charged-doping

Is this some kind of wild goose chase or do they have concrete evidence ?

Interesting to see how this plays put....
 
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fxramper
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:44 am

He has taken 500+ drug tests in his racing career and failed 0. 'nuff said...   
 
TheCol
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:17 am

The letter also says blood collections obtained by cycling's governing body in 2009 and '10 are "fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions.

  

Yeah, I call BS on that one. If they had enough evidence back then, then why didn't they give him the boot when he was competing in those races? Isn't that the whole point of testing athletes six months before they compete?
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:25 am

I wish this would go away. I actually feel bad for the guy and I never do in these doping cases. If they had concrete evidence why didn't they nail him years ago? I think what he's done is just extraordinary and people have trouble believing it. I can't even imagine doing that. But that doesn't mean he's a doper. I hope he can fight it and come out fine. I think he seems like a great guy and his foundation seems to be fantastic. Unfortunately even if it turns out false his reputation will be tarnished forever.
Blue
 
JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:45 am

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
He has taken 500+ drug tests in his racing career and failed 0. 'nuff said
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 3):
I wish this would go away. I actually feel bad for the guy and I never do in these doping cases. If they had concrete evidence why didn't they nail him years ago?

Not only has he never failed a drug test, but the investigation by the DOJ over 2 years resulted in nothing. I wonder if part of the reason is they just might not be able to accept that anyone was good enough to win such a tough race for so long. But, with all he has gone through, I wish people would just drop it already...he is no longer in competitive bike racing (although he is active in Triathalons).
 
bristolflyer
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:40 am

About a year ago one of his ex-team mates seemed to have thrown him under the bus, it was on the tv program 60 mins. Nothing seems to have come of that, I can't see anything more damning than that coming along.
 
Geezer
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:21 am

[quote=bristolflyer,reply=5]About a year ago one of his ex-team mates seemed to have thrown him under the bus,


Yeah, Tyler Hamilton............who already got caught, ( and already admitted it ) That's the gig problem when you're on a team, and keep winning every year; there's always someone who is jealous; sounds to me like Hamilton wants Lance to "suffer" just because he did; (some "team mate"!)

News flash to T.H..............The world will always remember Lance Armstrong as the greatest rider the sport has ever had; period. They'll remember you as an admitted doper, (and a crybaby). (And not for very long at that)

Charley
 
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Dano1977
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:51 am

I See Lance has also changed his standard answer to allegations of doping from...

"I've never failed a test"

to

"I have never doped"



I can't see how he couldn't have done something. All around him were cheating - it would be a hell of an achievement to dominate 7 Tours the way he did and I don't recall a single bad day. That's over 150 good days of Tour riding. No serious crashes (OK , that's possible from riding at the front), but no fatigue, no "hitting the wall", not even a miscalculation of effort leading to a failed attempt to put time in to his rivals and they then drop him. He dropped good riders and doped riders all the time. Not once did anyone put serious time in to him from my memory.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:42 am

Many prosecutors are elected or political appointees. A high profile case with an internationally well known person like Lance Armstrong, for which serious questions have been raised as to his long run of success meant to many he 'had' to use possibly illegal drugs, is a way to higher appointed or elected office even if don't get a conviction. They also want a high profile celeb like Armstrong so to protect their income and fame they will rat out those they dealt with. That is why I, like many others, dislike the use of going after high profile persons in such prosecutions unless real evidence.

Look for example other big Performance Enhancing Drug (PED) cases with baseball players, a lot of heat, a few convictions but the famous person dragged through the mud with their reputations ruined. That could happen to Lance Armstrong and for what? It won't stop the demand and use of PED's by professional athletes as too much money involved nor will it stop prosecutors going after famous names to get attention and power for themselves.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:12 pm

Here in France it's known as a "fact" that he doped, just like everyone else those years, and especially his team where it was done "scientifically" (by the way, how many team members admitted doping since ? Hamilton, Landis, Roberto Heras, Hincapie, Frankie Andreu...). Problem is the tests done at the time weren't up to the advances in doping, that's why he didn't fail them. It's when analyzed years later than the culprit is found, but too late. Look for example at the traces left by transfusions, you have to look for an infinitesimal amount of...plastic !

Now, about him being doped during his comeback (2009-2010), that I'm doubtful about.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):

Now, about him being doped during his comeback (2009-2010), that I'm doubtful about.

Why? Because he didn't win?
Is it only possible to win the tour if you dope?


This whole process just reaks of stupidity. It's a total whichhunt. They are looking for evidence to support a conclusion.

Everyone knows for a "fact" that he doped, but yet no one has the evidence. It makes me think of everyone in this process as a certifable idiot.
 
StarAC17
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:41 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
Here in France it's known as a "fact" that he doped, just like everyone else those years, and especially his team where it was done "scientifically" (by the way, how many team members admitted doping since ? Hamilton, Landis, Roberto Heras, Hincapie, Frankie Andreu...).

Where is the evidence that he doped?? Without proof he didn't do it, its innocent until proven guilty.

You and France can have their suspicions about it but without evidence it means nothing. Saying that If he is caught it will be the ultimate shame in our lifetime from a pretty inspirational figure.

Saying that I do kind of feel where you are coming from because in 1988 my dad was kind of devastated that Ben Johnson was caught in the Olympics where he also had his suspicions that Carl Lewis and others were but weren't caught. Because of that he unfortunately he always thinks sports are fixed which is kind of sad, but I do understand the cynicism.

Speaking of another sport that has this reputation "Track" if Usain Bolt sets another record and takes home a few more golds in London are people going to have the same witch hunt against him in 10 years or so.

I really hope not, because I do think him like Lance Armstrong are just gifted and much better. There will be others along that will smash their records in time.
 
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Dano1977
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:40 pm

If everyone was doped (as is now widely accepted) and he was the best and clean, you would think he would be shouting from the rooftops that he was clean and everyone else was cheating and how he beat them all without chemical assistance and that cycling needed to clean its act up so more clean riders, like him, could stand a chance of competing?
 
dl021
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:49 pm

It's amazing the lengths some seem to want to go here...the man has a story that's hard to beat and an indomitable will. The French accept as "fact" that he doped...well there's a lot of things the French seem to resent when their guys lose, and they get angry and en masse groupthink their way to vilification of their opponents and excuses as to why their side lost...I say this being part French and raised there a significant part of my life.

Someone with a hardon for Lance Armstrong just can't let go and I'm going to guess that at some point someone is going to cook up something that's hard to deny...you throw enough crap on the wall and something will at least stain if not stick.
 
StarAC17
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:57 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 12):
If everyone was doped (as is now widely accepted) and he was the best and clean, you would think he would be shouting from the rooftops that he was clean and everyone else was cheating and how he beat them all without chemical assistance and that cycling needed to clean its act up so more clean riders, like him, could stand a chance of competing?

What is the point of screaming from the top of buildings if some won't believe you regardless. It's like the birther thing with Obama, no matter what the evidence is they will contest all the evidence as part of the conspiracy.

You have to prove your allegation and if you can't for all respective purposes he is clean, plus Lance Armstrong probably has better things to do.
 
greasespot
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:54 pm

I do not care one way or the other. I think you test before a competition and you test after. You do not save the urine for years and keep re-testing it just in case. Hell I would even accept the "Keep the sample as long as you are a pro athlete"

Once the event is done it's over and you move on.

I think he has been under so many investigations he should just ignore them he has already been suspended and this will take a few years to be investigated so just ignore them. (which is what he seems to be doing) I am not sure the doping authority has anymore power than to suspend from competition. Give them zero cooperation.

Shouting from the roof tops just gives credence to the witch hunt.

GS
 
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Aesma
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 10):
Why? Because he didn't win?

No. Because the tests are much better now, and the overall controls anytime during the year. Too big a risk for him, more to lose than to gain.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 10):
Is it only possible to win the tour if you dope?

If others do it, then I'd say yes. In the last few years, it has been far more winnable, with far less impressive things seen on the road, and most that have been seen were due to doping.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:38 pm

About evidence, what do you make of the (numerous) testimonies ? Isn't a testimony enough to execute somebody in the US ?

But there is at least one sample of his blood that showed doping as I said, it's not valid evidence because you couldn't prove doping at the time it happened (now I think rules have changed).
 
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Tugger
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:53 pm

[/quote]

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Wake me when they find anything.... until then, why even talk about it?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
in France it's known as a "fact"

If you have to use quotes then it's not a fact, it's a "belief" or opinion.

To rephrase what I said above:
Wake me when it is a fact and not a "fact".

Tugg
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting greasespot (Reply 15):
I think he has been under so many investigations he should just ignore them he has already been suspended and this will take a few years to be investigated so just ignore them.

Except that his suspension also covers his being able to compete in Ironman Triathlons. He just recently won the Ironman 70.3 in Hawaii and was in France preparing for another event later this month.
 
racko
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:02 pm

Wait, there are still people doubting that Armstrong doped?

Many of the cyclists who have ridden for his team at the time has by now admitted that they systemically doped. All the top riders he rode against doped, and preserved urine samples from 1999 (the time before there was a reliable EPO test) were later tested for EPO and were positive.

Armstrong is a cheat. Which doesn't actually take too much away from his achievements, as everybody else was, too. It just destroys the role model fairy tale fiction he has created for himself.

I can understand why many Americans don't want to face reality about a well-liked athlete, but at this point it's a bit embarrassing. The French got over Virenque, the Germans got over Ulrich, get it together.

Quoting geezer (Reply 6):
The world will always remember Lance Armstrong as the greatest rider the sport has ever had; period.

Are you kidding? Ever heard of Eddy Merckx?
 
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casinterest
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
Quoting casinterest (Reply 10):
Why? Because he didn't win?

No. Because the tests are much better now, and the overall controls anytime during the year. Too big a risk for him, more to lose than to gain.

So let's go retest every single pissi bottle. From every single athelete ever. No holds barred. Every sport , every comperitor.
This is the dumbest thing about the whole thing. I don't see the dope council and the dopes on it going after evert single athelete. This is a witchhunt and nothing but.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
But there is at least one sample of his blood that showed doping as I said, it's not valid evidence because you couldn't prove doping at the time it happened (now I think rules have changed).

So the rules changed and now the doping counts? If that isn't the anthisma of a whichhunt I don't know what is.

Quoting racko (Reply 20):
Are you kidding? Ever heard of Eddy Merckx?

Wait till they get a hold of his piss. If what you say above is true, then Mercks must have doped as well.

Quoting racko (Reply 20):
as everybody else was, too
 
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Tugger
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 20):
Are you kidding? Ever heard of Eddy Merckx?

Not really, from what I read he was supremely good but Lance is "greater".

Quoting racko (Reply 20):
Wait, there are still people doubting that Armstrong doped?

That must be because you "dope" and use other various illegal drugs.

What?

You expect someone to not cast aspersions against you? You would expect someone to have some roof before they accuse you of something?

Quoting racko (Reply 20):
I can understand why many Americans don't want to face reality about a well-liked athlete, but at this point it's a bit embarrassing. The French got over Virenque, the Germans got over Ulrich, get it together.

Ahhh... I see YOU can't stand the idea and can't get over that "your guys" cheated, so if they did Lance must have as well. I got it.

Why do you make this a nationalist thing? Simply put, I don't really care one way or the other. This does not impact me and does not affect my sense of self or pride in my nation or anything like that. People are who they are and do what they do and either something will be proven or it won't be and Lance will live with the consequences (of which exoneration won't be one unfortunately because of people like you and Aesma. Or if he is exonerated will you accept that he was clean?) and it won't fall upon "the nation" or American's.

Why is it wrong to think someone is "OK" when they have not been shown to be undeserving? I know, cynicism, as you noted, others did it so he must have as well. Well as I said above you must do drugs too then, its the cynic in me. And in turn you must believe that I do drugs too. And what about the drugs that everyone must use because some people in their professions use them to maintain "peak performance" (or just to stay awake)....

This is just so much ado about NOTHING when you get right down to it. Please try to not take offense to my comments, I am not making them as personal insults only as examples in trying to relate that there just isn't anything here yet. And whatever is found out I do not believe it matters too much in the grand scheme of things or necessitates retributive comments ("I told you so", etc). It's not a national thing or something that impugns the various posters here, regardless on what flag is beside our name. I think we get too worked up over little things nowadays.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 21):
So let's go retest every single pissi bottle. From every single athelete ever. No holds barred. Every sport , every comperitor.
This is the dumbest thing about the whole thing. I don't see the dope council and the dopes on it going after evert single athelete. This is a witchhunt and nothing but.

  

Quoting casinterest (Reply 21):
Mercks must have doped as well.

He did.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-06-14 10:57:42]
 
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Dano1977
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:46 pm

So does Miguel Indurain fall in to the same category as Merkx then as a doper?
 
StuckInCA
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:32 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 7):
I can't see how he couldn't have done something. All around him were cheating - it would be a hell of an achievement to dominate 7 Tours the way he did and I don't recall a single bad day. That's over 150 good days of Tour riding. No serious crashes (OK , that's possible from riding at the front), but no fatigue, no "hitting the wall", not even a miscalculation of effort leading to a failed attempt to put time in to his rivals and they then drop him. He dropped good riders and doped riders all the time. Not once did anyone put serious time in to him from my memory.

I remember him having some tough days and also crashing. You seriously don't recall him ever having a bad day, hitting the wall or miscalculating? Did you watch cycling? That said, I don't really believe that anyone in cycling at that level for that long didn't dope at least at some point.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 10):
Is it only possible to win the tour if you dope?

My opinion = yes.
 
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par13del
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:55 am

I can understand the French having a problem with an American being a champion of their national race, not just a champion but the one holding the record for consecutive victories, what I cannot understand is how they got the Americans to also join the witch hunt the second time? I could never figure out why some folks say the Americans are biased against foreigners, this man was / is held up as a symbol for what can be done as a cancer survivor, so why is no one in America or elsewhere are questioning if he ever had cancer?
If he is smart enough to hide his doping from the French for all these years who are not his ardent supporters surely he is also capable of faking cancer.........Go figure.
 
Geezer
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:49 am

Here's a question for you.......................several people have made references to the effect that someone, somewhere actually has urine samples from every contestant, from every race ? I can just see a bunch of lawyers haggling over this in a court room ! WHO has all of these "samples" ? If it's a fact that such samples do exist, how is anyone going to be able to PROVE that such & such sample has not been "tampered" with ? For that matter, who can accurately and conclusively say what the "shelf life" of someone's "pee pee" is ? Well, EVERYTHING undergoes changes with time;
it's why food producers and pharmaceutical companies are required by law to to put expiration dates on all products.

I can just picture some brilliant "legal eagle" screaming and yelling, "that test" is meaningless; it's scientifically impossible to do accurate tests on 10, 15 yr old urine ! "Blah, blah, blah" ! ( And even though I'm not a scientist, I would be inclined to agree with him !)

If major world "powers" can't even keep track of their nuclear war heads and fissionable material over a long period of time, I really think anyone attempting to introduce tests done on decades-old urine would be in for an impossible task !
( It would no doubt generate more controversy than 4 or 5 threads on A.Net usually does.)

I really think the best "plan" is, for the USADA, (or what ever it's called) and everyone else to just "suck it up" and admit, Lance Armstrong is the greatest Tour De France champion of all time............period ! (And yes Racko, I "know" about Eddie Merckx, (although I don't know if anyone yet has spelled his name right); yeah, Eddie was great, no doubt........as were a few more.......(.such as Miguel Indurain ); but they didn't have quite the success in "the Tour" now did they ? Maybe if some one cares to start another thread, debating "who's the greatest cyclist of all time" ? I'm pretty sure Lance Armstrong will win out in that discussion.

Having said all that, I'm with Tugger on this...........wake me up when you come up with something "new" to talk about.

Charley

P.S. Who was it that said he didn't remember Lance ever having a "bad day" in the Tour ? Did you actually ever watch one ? How about when Lance crashed, went over the handlebars...........believe it....Lance had his share of "bad days" !
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:27 am

Quoting geezer (Reply 6):
News flash to T.H..............The world will always remember Lance Armstrong as the greatest rider the sport has ever had; period.

That's rubbish, he's not even good enough to lick the sweat off Eddy Merckx balls, Eddy is the greatest cyclist of all time. Lance only ever won the Tour.

Quote:
On Eddy, the French magazine Vélo called him "the most accomplished rider that cycling has ever known."The American publication, VeloNews, called him the greatest and most successful cyclist of all time. He won the Tour de France five times, won all the monuments of cycling at least twice, with 19 monument victories in all, won the Giro d'Italia five times and the Vuelta a España once, won the world championship once as an amateur and three times as a professional, and broke the world hour record.

Lance did bugger all compared to Eddy. Most of the world thinks Lance was a drug cheat, I think whatever he used is currently undetectable.
 
runner13
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:39 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
Here in France it's known as a "fact"

Just like its a "fact" that Continental was responsible for the Concorde crash, and not the airport authority responsible for the runway inspections before and after the Concorde. Give me a break in my opinion the French have no credibility. Nothing is ever their fault and if they lose someone cheated.
 
Geezer
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:54 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 27):
Quote:
On Eddy, the French magazine Vélo called him "the most accomplished rider that cycling has ever known."The American publication, VeloNews, called him the greatest and most successful cyclist of all time. He won the Tour de France five times, won all the monuments of cycling at least twice, with 19 monument victories in all, won the Giro d'Italia five times and the Vuelta a España once, won the world championship once as an amateur and three times as a professional, and broke the world hour record.

KiwiRob;

I just now read your post ! I'm glad I did; I can now tell you something else............you know a hell of a lot more about cycling than I do ! As I said, I did "know" about Eddy, but it was all from memory, and I must confess, I really wasn't aware he did all of that ! I'll change my statement to "Lance and Eddy M., the two greatest cyclists of all time.

My total knowledge of cycling is limited to watching a few stages of the "Tour" every 4 years, and that's about it.

But I also have to wonder this.................obviously, many people around the world are "seriously into" the sport of cycling, and not just watching the Tour DeFrance every 4 yrs; even reading the replies in this thread, it sounds like everyone pretty much agrees that everyone in the sport "dopes", one way or another; yet because Lance Armstrong says he never has "doped", they're all hoping he'll get "shot down" ! I've watched Lance's career from the beginning; whether he's "the greatest", or "one of the greatest" is not the most important to me; the guy did what very few people would have done............he refused to quit when he found he had testicular cancer; that fact alone tells me a lot about the guy. I happen to be a cancer "survivor" myself; so I've "been there, did that" as they say. Mine was in the prostate gland; believe me, it wasn't "fun". But it gives me a good idea of what Lance Armstrong went through, dealing with his problem; that's just one of the two reasons I think Armstrong is "great" Anyone that can even finish the Tour DeFrance 7 times is a hell of an athlete; anyone who can win it 7 times, is an incredible athlete; and anyone who can be diagnosed with what L.A. was, and STILL even compete, and win..................is just a "superman" as far as I'm concerned; I'm not nearly as inclined to be so damned "nationalistic" as many people are; I'd say the same thing about Lance Armstrong if he was a Frenchman, a German, or a Spaniard, or a Brit; What really amazes me, is all the people, freely admitting that "everyone" in the sport dopes, yet they all want to see Lance Armstrong's career ruined; I'm just glad I'm not that "small".

All of these people who have now admitted they doped; when did they admit it ? I'll tell you when..........after they got caught ! And certainly after they failed a test. Do you "admire" people who "get caught", then rat out their team mate ?
Do you think they now "look better" now that they've ratted out on a team mate AFTER getting caught ? I don't; I despise RATS !

As for Eddy Merckx............I don't know if the sport had gone to pot yet when he was riding, so I don't know what he did, or didn't do; but either way, he was one hell of a man ! (Thanks for bringing me up to date !)

Charley
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:24 am

At this point, I don't really care (not that I ever really did, since I'm not a particular fan of cycling).

All I can say is that if Lance doped, as did everyone else "back then", then he was still the best, and still beat everyone else in the Tour seven times, or whatever.

If they take away his wins, what are they going to do, give them to the 2nd place guys, who were also doping?

Whether or not he was doping (and as I said, I don't really care), it seems extremely pointless to keep going after him about it.

May as well just leave it at "a lot of high-profile cyclists were doping then, possibly including Lance Armstrong, but he still won the Tour 7 times".
 
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Aesma
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:44 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 18):
If you have to use quotes then it's not a fact, it's a "belief" or opinion.

To rephrase what I said above:
Wake me when it is a fact and not a "fact".

Lets say it's a fact like the OJ murders. He won in court, but that's it.

Quoting runner13 (Reply 28):
Just like its a "fact" that Continental was responsible for the Concorde crash, and not the airport authority responsible for the runway inspections before and after the Concorde. Give me a break in my opinion the French have no credibility. Nothing is ever their fault and if they lose someone cheated.

Very bad example, my friend. You're using the Virenque defense, I was doped without my knowledge !
 
racko
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:26 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 22):
Quoting racko (Reply 20):
Are you kidding? Ever heard of Eddy Merckx?

Not really, from what I read he was supremely good but Lance is "greater".
Quoting geezer (Reply 26):
And yes Racko, I "know" about Eddie Merckx, (although I don't know if anyone yet has spelled his name right); yeah, Eddie was great, no doubt........as were a few more.......(.such as Miguel Indurain ); but they didn't have quite the success in "the Tour" now did they ?
Quoting casinterest (Reply 21):
Quoting racko (Reply 20):
Are you kidding? Ever heard of Eddy Merckx?

Wait till they get a hold of his piss. If what you say above is true, then Mercks must have doped as well.

Armstrong was largely a one-trick pony, all focus on the Tour. Merckx won everything, Vuelta, Tour de Suisse, Giro, the classics...there's no doubt about who is the greatest cyclist of all times. Oh, and yes, of course he doped.

Quoting tugger (Reply 22):
Why do you make this a nationalist thing?

It's hard not to notice how the "belief" in Armstrong's purity goes strictly along country lines.

Quoting tugger (Reply 22):
Why is it wrong to think someone is "OK" when they have not been shown to be undeserving?

That's the thing I was trying to point out, it's blatantly obvious that he was doped:

- More than 10 riders of his team have testified that there was systematic doping at US Postal, including his top 3 lieutenants
- His rechecked urine samples from 1999 are positive
- His urine samples from 2001 are positive
- He was working with Michele Ferrari, a known doping physician
- He was riding against opposition that was juiced up to their ears yet he drove circles around them

You can look at these facts and come to 2 conclusions:

[ ] He doped.
[ ] It's a giant conspiracy spanning half the globe, without any reasonably clear motive (What's in it for the USADA? What's in it for Hincapie?)

Oh, and as for the evil French: They, unlike many other countries (including Germany by the way), have been relentless in going after their cheating cyclists.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13627
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:17 pm

Quoting geezer (Reply 29):
"Lance and Eddy M., the two greatest cyclists of all time

I'd put Lance at number 5 on the list. He was a one trick pony, he only won the Tour, whereas the 4 riders I have above him have been all rounders with multiple victories on the three Grand Tours (Eddy, Bernard and Jacques won all three) plus 1 hour record, world championships and the classic single day races.

1. Eddy Merckx
2. Bernard Hinault
3. Miguel Indurain
4. Jacques Anquetil
5. Lance Armstrong
 
windy95
Posts: 2796
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:33 pm

If they all are doping then what is the big deal. No one had an advantage then, right? Sort of like Sosa, Bond's and McGuire. They where all cheating but the race to the most home run's in a season was still even because they all did it. It is time to move on with the Armstrong story and let cycling worry about what is going on now.
 
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Dano1977
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 32):
It's hard not to notice how the "belief" in Armstrong's purity goes strictly along country lines.

You too huh?

If Armstrong is found guilty of doping, I sure hope to hell a couple of Journalists who were taken to court by Armstrong and virtually made bankrupt by the court action and ruling, start proceedings against him, along with the Sunday Times.
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:19 pm

If it cannot be traced, if it does not appear on the list of illegal substances, if it does not kill me and if I can get rich and notorious, it's fine !
signed by the vast majority of pro-cyclists with winner's potential, their managers, the teams, the sponsors, medical advisers and operators, Californian labs....and the fans.

Before being flamed....I rode a few times in the wheel of Eddy Merckx (3 years my elder) and was very close to one of his main competitors, successful sprinter Emile (Mieleke) Daems, mid to end of the sixties.
Performance enhancement products and techniques existed then, before and after.

Merckx admitted having exchanged urine samples at times....and so did the others. Open secret.

What Armstrong and manager Johan Bruyneel, Belgian former pro rider and charged by the same USADA, brought to the game is ultimate "professionalism" in ALL aspects of the sport, among other, making sure to be at least a step ahead of
the competitors and two steps ahead of the relevant authorities, their knowledge, rules and lists and their detection capabilities.

Nationality is irrelevant, Spain Alberto Contador (unsurprisingly with the same manager Bruyneel) is also under the lens.
 
GDB
Posts: 14388
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting runner13 (Reply 28):
Just like its a "fact" that Continental was responsible for the Concorde crash, and not the airport authority responsible for the runway inspections before and after the Concorde. Give me a break in my opinion the French have no credibility. Nothing is ever their fault and if they lose someone cheated.

Well, as someone who that at close hand, I can say that the findings of the investigation were also endorsed by the UK authorities and the FAA.
But, the French legal system differs from the US and UK one, in that a judicial investigation is run in parallel with the usual technical one, this was hard for us to get our heads around at first and did cause some minor tension.
But once the technical one is over, the judicial one carries on and they can take years to come to court.
In the case of an Air Inter A320 crash, this took 15 years. Nothing to do with having a go at the US.
A judicial case coming to court can also be merely a formality, with no charges brought, but it's all based on technical evidence, but also a legal interpretation whether or not to charge anyone as a result of it.
This differs in that the French system can have differing interpretations about culpability.
My own personal view on AF4590 is that there was some culpability on the part of CO, but going after individuals was wrong.
But this is the wrong forum for this subject, plenty of threads in Civ Av.

Back to topic, could it be that a similar way of doing things with the French authorities as regards cycling, could be a factor here?
They just do things differently there?
Or allowing for that, they are using this process to get at Armstrong?
I certainly don't know.
 
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par13del
Posts: 10963
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RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:29 am

Quoting geezer (Reply 29):
My total knowledge of cycling is limited to watching a few stages of the "Tour" every 4 years, and that's about it.

To a lot of folks on the other side of the pond that is the legacy of Lance Armstrong, he bought a lot of non-cycle persons into the Tour, not cycling in general, just the Tour.

Quoting GDB (Reply 37):

Back to topic, could it be that a similar way of doing things with the French authorities as regards cycling, could be a factor here?
Quoting racko (Reply 32):
Oh, and as for the evil French: They, unlike many other countries (including Germany by the way), have been relentless in going after their cheating cyclists.

So far they have not been able to convict him of anything, they have done soe with others and removed their crown, I don't think he is special to them that they would ignore his transgressions.

Will be interesting to see if the French will remove titles from a winner based on a conviction in a USA court.
 
qfflyer
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:38 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:42 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):
He was a one trick pony
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):
Miguel Indurain

When did Miguel win the Worlds Road Race?
What did he do when he was 21? Unless you are suggesting Lance started doping in his teens?
I personally think Miguel was doped, unlike Lance who was always a top performer, Miguel suddenly came into form, and unbeatable in TTs, after being on the same team as Pedro Delgado who only got away from a doping charge on a technicality. If they can test Lances blood after all this time, lets test Miguels as well.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13627
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:26 am

Quoting QFFlyer (Reply 39):

When did Miguel win the Worlds Road Race?

He didn't but he was world and Olympic TT champion, plus he held the 1 hour record. I'm pretty positive that all top cyclists dope, some get caught some who have the best chemists don't. I do not believe that Lance won 7 Tours without being on dope, it's about as believable as Ronnie Coleman saying he won 8 Mr Olympias without steroids.
 
qfflyer
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:38 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:39 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 40):
I'm pretty positive that all top cyclists

I am sure riders like Cadel Evans would take a dim view to your opinion....again another ride who has shown talent from a very young age, but accused of being a doper even without any proof, because "its not believable"
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1658
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:55 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting QFFlyer (Reply 41):
I am sure riders like Cadel Evans would take a dim view to your opinion....

Wait, you think that Cadel Evans doesn't dope?
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13627
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:47 pm

Quoting QFFlyer (Reply 41):

I am sure riders like Cadel Evans would take a dim view to your opinion

He's old, he probably needed some assistance  
 
johns624
Posts: 4045
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

RE: Lance Armstrong Facing Doping Allegations

Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:50 pm

I like how so many people defend LA because he's a "nice guy". Sorry, but he's not. Look at the way he treated Kevin Livingston when he wanted to go to another team. Although he helped Lance recover from his surgery, Lance cut him off for many years. Here's a little note for some of the Americans here--the cycling world doesn't revolve around the TdF. Ever heard of Liege-Bastogne-Liege? How about Paris-Roubaix? Any of the Spring Classics?
For those that say it was still even because everyone doped, not so. Lance had better drugs that weren't detectable. While others had to be discreet and only use on certain days, Lance could do whatever he wanted.

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