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TSS
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:17 pm

Quoting GST (Reply 15):
I do not know the evolutionary reason for foreskins existence, they may well be a throwback that now serve little/no purpose to homo sapiens whilst increasing the risk of some specific diseases and conditions, but I don't see any drive for babies to have their tonsils removed.

It's there to protect the most sensitive parts and prevent desensitization due to constant stimulus from outside sources such as bedding and clothing.

Quoting racko (Reply 45):
A point that hasn't been brought up, but I feel that should be important: sexual pleasure.

Knowing only my uncircumcised position, I think that that's a lot of very sensitive skin with a lot of nerve endings that gets cut off there. Why forfeit that sensation and the subsequent possibilities of pleasure?

Not to mention that the missing foreskin over the glans surely leads to a lot of lost sensitivity in the glans as well, doesn't it?

According to Moses Maimonides, decreasing sexual pleasure was one of the main reasons for circumcision:
"Similarly with regard to circumcision, one of the reasons for it is, in my opinion, the wish to bring about a decrease in sexual intercourse and a weakening of the organ in question, so that this activity be diminished and the organ be in as quiet a state as possible. It has been thought that circumcision perfects what is defective congenitally. This gave the possibility to everyone to raise an objection and to say: How can natural things be defective so that they need to be perfected from outside, all the more because we know how useful the foreskin is for that member? In fact this commandment has not been prescribed with a view to perfecting what is defective congenitally, but to perfecting what is defective morally. The bodily pain caused to that member is the real purpose of circumcision. None of the activities necessary for the preservation of the individual is harmed thereby, nor is procreation rendered impossible, but violent concupiscence and lust that goes beyond what is needed are diminished. The fact that circumcision weakens the faculty of sexual excitement and sometimes perhaps diminishes the pleasure is indubitable. For if at birth this member has been made to bleed and has had its covering taken away from it, it must indubitably be weakened. The Sages, may their memory be blessed, have explicitly stated: It is hard for a woman with whom an uncircumcised man has had sexual intercourse to separate from him. In my opinion this is the strongest of the reasons for circumcision."
Source- http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/maimonides/
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moo
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:32 pm

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 46):
Since this is the overwhelming opinion on here, it's obvious you people have issues with your parents for whatever reason and WAY too much time on your hands.

You wouldn't accept it if your parents decided you looked better without one ear, would you...

Circumcision is a life long, unalterable, unreversable decision - one parents shouldnt get to make.
 
Acheron
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting kl838 (Reply 36):
As for hygiene I don't understand why can't someone just clean their penis when they take a shower.

I agree. I have to question the hygiene habits of those for whom spending extra time on their genitals seem to be such an inconvenience that having their penises mutilated is an acceptable solution.

[Edited 2012-06-25 09:51:41]
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:12 pm

The HIV argument in circumcising children doesn't make any sense, given that sexual activity isn't a thing associated with children. I haven't heard of any adult deciding to get circumcised to reduce the chance of HIV infection, but there's nothing to stop them doing so.

One advantage of the foreskin that doesn't seem to have been mentioned so far is its (or rather the fluid underneath's) lubricating effect in sexual activity, particularly masturbation. This would be my main argument against it.
 
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zckls04
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:31 pm

Against it, won't be having it done to my children.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 40):
As I predicted, areas where the prevalence is low have decidedly negative attitudes toward it, while areas where it's more common have more positive attitudes toward it.

I think a large part of this is the male ego- for most men suggesting that there might be something wrong with their beloved penis is to imply they're less of a man. People are much more likely to think their way is best.

I certainly don't think it's a big deal, and I wouldn't favor banning it or anything like that. It does slightly shock me how many people bring up the hygiene argument though- does that imply most cut men don't wash themselves?
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lewis
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:46 pm

I am not strongly against it but I just don't see a point to it. It sounds the same as cutting the tail or chopping off the ears of a dog, for aesthetic reasons. It may have worked well for desert dwellers 2000 years ago who had no concept of hygiene, but this is 2012, most of us have access to soap and we clean ourselves frequently.

I am glad I was not circumcised, I have read that you lose a lot of sensitivity once you are mutilated and the benefits are very debatable. I haven't seen any studies showing that the European population (mostly uncircumcised unless there are religious reasons) show greater numbers of cancers or infections. I have seen that doctors, after so many decades of it being common practice in some places, are still divided on the subject.

I have also read that one of the reasons for the procedure becoming mainstream in the US was because it made it more difficult for young boys to "play" with themselves. Is there any truth to that?

As for what women prefer, that is irrelevant. A woman should be interested more in you than the details of your penis's anatomy - especially if you decide to keep it as nature made it. Mutilating a part of your body to conform to someone's tastes is wrong. If circumcised women looked better to men, this would still not be a good reason for it to become standard practice, women would be up in arms about it. From women that I know, it is really a non-issue. If it is, it is because they have only seen cut, so that is what they have considered "normal" for all their lives.
 
sbworcs
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:17 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 24):
14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant. ”

So then how can my father be an uncircumcised Minister?
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Superfly
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:22 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 40):
I'm surprised how many men are uncircumcised in porn.
Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 40):
I feel the majority are uncircumcised.

Boy did you set yourself up for THAT one!   
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DocLightning
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 28):
Perhaps I'm incredibly naive here, but those of you who were circumcised as a baby and strongly wish they weren't, why?

As a gay man, I didn't realize what I was missing out on until I messed around with my first uncircumcised guy. I'm not going into details, but I envy uncircumcised men.
-Doc Lightning-

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moo
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting sbworcs (Reply 56):
So then how can my father be an uncircumcised Minister?

If hes not Jewish, then hes ministering under the new covenant of Jesus Christ - the old covenants no longer apply but many christians feel that circumcision adds to their belief.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:47 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 58):
As a gay man, I didn't realize what I was missing out on until I messed around with my first uncircumcised guy

... and as an uncut gay man I wondered what the hell I was doing wrong when I encountered my first cut guy , it wasn't until I had more experience that I saw the pattern .... you guys require so much more work  
Quoting Acheron (Reply 52):
I agree. I have to question the hygiene habits of those for whom spending extra time on their genitals seem to be such an inconvenience that having their penises mutilated is an acceptable solution.

I have always found the hygiene argument quite bizarre, I have met plenty of guys with really bad foot odour but I can't imagine many people suggesting that newborn males should have their feet cut off as a preventative measure.

While I have unfortunately met one or two guys who needed a lesson in personal hygiene with regard to their foreskins most of us simply clean ourselves there as routinely as we clean every other part of our bodies.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 55):
I am not strongly against it but I just don't see a point to it. It sounds the same as cutting the tail or chopping off the ears of a dog, for aesthetic reasons. It may have worked well for desert dwellers 2000 years ago who had no concept of hygiene, but this is 2012, most of us have access to soap and we clean ourselves frequently.

It wasn't even hygeine, per se. It was the indellible mark of a Hebrew man. Once circmcised, you were forever circumcised. It was often done to prisoners of war.

Quoting lewis (Reply 55):
I have also read that one of the reasons for the procedure becoming mainstream in the US was because it made it more difficult for young boys to "play" with themselves. Is there any truth to that?

Yes there is. Fat lot of good it did.

Quoting TSS (Reply 50):
According to Moses Maimonides, decreasing sexual pleasure was one of the main reasons for circumcision:

This is fascinating. I've never read that passage.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 46):
Since this is the overwhelming opinion on here, it's obvious you people have issues with your parents for whatever reason and WAY too much time on your hands.

I love that because a number of well-thought-out and logical arguments against the practice have been enunciated here, including some from people who are not circumcised, you jumped --nay, leaped and bounded-- to this conclusion.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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slider
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:50 pm

I'm circumcised and can't imagine not being, but never really gave a thought to it. Biggest non-issue on the planet, actually, IMHO.
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 51):
You wouldn't accept it if your parents decided you looked better without one ear, would you...

Because that's such a logical comparison. Nice try.

People that have such a huge issue when it comes to this don't have enough to do. End of story. Not an opinion, just a matter of fact. You guys better get to the counselor's office because this is obviously such a burden on your psyche.

Please.  
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DocLightning
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:53 pm

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 63):
People that have such a huge issue when it comes to this don't have enough to do. End of story. Not an opinion, just a matter of fact.

An uninformed opinion based not in fact. I have no issues with my parents related to my circumcision, sir.
-Doc Lightning-

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WrenchBender
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:04 pm

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):

RootsAir, Is that you ?
Are You Cut Or Uncut? (by RootsAir Dec 10 2006 in Non Aviation)
The Official Circumcision Thread (by LH423 Nov 5 2007 in Non Aviation)
Please Don't Bash Me For This! (by RootsAir Feb 12 2007 in Non Aviation)
Cut Or Uncut? (by FlyAUA Oct 5 2005 in Non Aviation)

Discussed frequently in the past on here, it seemed a bit of an obsession for young RootsAir.

WrenchBender
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lewis
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:04 pm

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 63):
Because that's such a logical comparison.

For people growing up in places where chopping off part of the penis is not the norm, it does sound as stupid and as weird as chopping off your ear.

If the ear comparison doesn't work because the ear does provide an important function, how about just chopping off the earlobe? It is quite useless if you think about it - unless you want to use it to hang earrings from it. And I know of at least a couple of people who at one time or another had an infection that started from there, even without piercings. That makes it medically justified too right?
 
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zckls04
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:07 pm

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 63):
People that have such a huge issue when it comes to this don't have enough to do. End of story. Not an opinion, just a matter of fact.

In general I find opinions stated as fact (or even worse, ": FACT") the least convincing ones. This is no exception.
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Tugger
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:14 pm

Now here's the part I don't understand. The foreskin gives at least some amount of "extra" expansion room, so an uncircumcised person should theoretically be able to get bigger than than that same person when circumcised... shouldn't they? I mean, not to get too personal but when an uncircumcised penis is fully engorged you can't tell it is an uncircumcised penis. Everything is fully stretched tight and all the skin is being utilized.

Tugg
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 63):
People that have such a huge issue when it comes to this don't have enough to do. End of story. Not an opinion, just a matter of fact. You guys better get to the counselor's office because this is obviously such a burden on your psyche.

Well, apparently you also don't seem to have enough to do or otherwise you'd contribute your opinion to this thread instead of criticizing us for discussing our opinions regarding this topic and one that, as far as this thread is concerned, is controversial due to a baby not having a say in whether to be circumcised or not.
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DocLightning
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:28 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 68):
Now here's the part I don't understand. The foreskin gives at least some amount of "extra" expansion room, so an uncircumcised person should theoretically be able to get bigger than than that same person when circumcised... shouldn't they? I mean, not to get too personal but when an uncircumcised penis is fully engorged you can't tell it is an uncircumcised penis. Everything is fully stretched tight and all the skin is being utilized.

No it's not stretched tight. The foreskin retracts, but there's plenty of "play" in it.
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"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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mariner
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 58):
As a gay man, I didn't realize what I was missing out on until I messed around with my first uncircumcised guy. I'm not going into details, but I envy uncircumcised men.

  

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 63):
People that have such a huge issue when it comes to this don't have enough to do. End of story. Not an opinion, just a matter of fact.

Huh?

There are a whole lot of thing about which I have strong opinions, but I don't spend my day agonising about them. I don't spend my day agonising about my cut state - I love my cock and it has given me extraordinary pleasure these many, many years.

I'm with those Asian religions that worship the penis - happy Thailand:

http://www.soravij.com/showcase/penisworship/penisworship.html

But if someone asks my opinion about circumcision I'll give it, and it's a strongly held opinion.

mariner

[Edited 2012-06-25 16:47:56]
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YVRLTN
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:16 am

Quoting moo (Reply 59):
If hes not Jewish, then hes ministering under the new covenant of Jesus Christ - the old covenants no longer apply but many christians feel that circumcision adds to their belief.

I had opportunity to look into this recently. Here is an explanation of the religious perspective of circumcision today as it applies to Christian as I understand it.

The Old Testament was for the Jews, God's chosen people. No doubt there were practical reasons for the law that was issued as mentioned by Prebben. In Christianity, all of the Old Testament became a picture or figure of things established by Jesus in the New Testament. So for example, Abraham being willing to sacrifice Isaac his son is a picture of God giving his son Jesus. Isaiah 53 talking about the lamb led to slaughter refers to Jesus going to the cross and so on. Circumcision is taken up by Paul in his epistles and Romans 4 particularly deals with it, directly referring to Genesis 17 Moo quoted because many of the early Christians were converted from Judaism and were struggling to leave behind all the old customs and rictuals set out in the law.

Circumcision in Christianity is commonly referred to as the "cutting off of the flesh", the flesh in this context referring to what is bad morally about the natural unchristianized person - so all the bad things we do, say and even think. So in the epistles and New Testament, God's word no longer applies to Jews only as it did before Jesus, but also Greeks and gentiles (ie the rest of the world) so now Jews are on an equal footing in the sight of God morally, though the race will always retain a unique place in God's ordering. However, Paul makes it perfectly clear that circumcision is not a literal thing at all, it is a moral or spiritual exercise "to cut off your desire for evil things".

Long story short in the Christian belief, Genesis 17 was over ruled 2000 years ago and circumcision is not a religious requirement since the introduction of Christianity, which for God replaced Judaism so doesnt apply there either. Of course for the Jews, the law still stands as Christianity is false which is why they still practise it. Not sure about Islam. This is how it was explained to me anyway...

A thought that occurs to me is if men are worried about STD's gathering there, if you are going to put yourself into a position where you could easily contract one, why on earth would you do so without a condom?? As Prebben and others have said, circumcision does not replace basic hygiene or adult responsibility.
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AA7295
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:54 am

Okay.... Totally didn't mean to bring religion into because it's 2012 and I really don't think (well I hope) that people don't make such decisions using religion as a moral barometer, especially in human health topic.

I asked because a circumcised penis looks aesthetically better (in my opinion). An uncut penis is just gross.... GROSS!

Also, I don't think it's mutilation if you grow up not knowing any better (or in my case, worse!) and how many cases are there of circumcision related infant death compared to the number of operations performed.
 
WrenchBender
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 73):
I asked because a circumcised penis looks aesthetically better (in my opinion). An uncut penis is just gross.... GROSS!

If we were all cut how would we perform 'Puppetry of the Penis'. Google it if you never heard of it...... 

WrenchBender
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beowulf
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:15 am

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
not to mention I got Ballanitis and a UTI (both in Thailand!) and the doctor said my chances of getting both would have been reduced had I been circumcised.

Unless you have phimosis I don't see why soap and water couldn't have prevented at least the balanitis.

As for the pro or con of circumcision, I think a medical need should be the yard stick here. Just because I don't "need" my appendix or tonsils, they are also not yanked out by default. If it's a religious practice, well, that's opening a can of worm.
 
smittyone
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:53 am

Thank you for

Quoting TSS (Reply 50):
According to Moses Maimonides, decreasing sexual pleasure was one of the main reasons for circumcision...For if at birth this member has been made to bleed and has had its covering taken away from it, it must indubitably be weakened. The Sages, may their memory be blessed, have explicitly stated: It is hard for a woman with whom an uncircumcised man has had sexual intercourse to separate from him. In my opinion this is the strongest of the reasons for circumcision.

It strikes me that Maimonides was kind of a douche, operating under the cover of religious orthodoxy.
 
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moo
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:18 am

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 63):
Because that's such a logical comparison. Nice try.

It is - its an arbitrary removal of a body part through a decision by your parents. Does changing the body part in question have any effect on the topic?

The only reason you think the ear makes it not a logical comparison is because we don't allow parents to remove the ears of their children. So why do we allow it for any other body part?

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 63):
People that have such a huge issue when it comes to this don't have enough to do. End of story. Not an opinion, just a matter of fact. You guys better get to the counselor's office because this is obviously such a burden on your psyche.

So changing a babies body in a non-reversible way is perfectly acceptable to you? Why?
 
jamincan
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:59 am

I have often thought it would be cool to have a tattoo, but am too squeamish around needles to go out and get one. My parents could have saved me the trouble by having me tattooed as a baby, but trust me, I am grateful they spared me. Similarly, I am glad they didn't give me any piercings.

I don't see circumcision as much different. It is a body modification that is being done without the infant's consent. I am all for people having the choice to have a circumcision, but without consent, performing an unnecessary procedure like this is irresponsible and unethical.
 
babybus
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:18 pm

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 4):
But that is also like saying that baptizing someone in a particular religion prohibits their choice as an infant.

At least with religion you can come out of it but you can't stick your snipped foreskin back on.

I'm against it. You should accept what God gave you. If he didn't want you to have a foreskin he would have removed it Himself.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
smittyone
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 79):
If he didn't want you to have a foreskin he would have removed it Himself.

Sure, but it's more righteous if you 'choose' to do it for him. Or should I say fore him.
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:17 pm

As of today, a German court ruled that circumcising children for religious reasons represents a criminal offense (bodily harm). The judges said that the children's right of physical integrity weighs more than the parents right of religious freedom.


Sorry, German only:

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justi...aut-gericht-strafbar-a-841084.html

[Edited 2012-06-26 09:17:51]
 
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moo
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 81):

As of today, a German court ruled that circumcising children for religious reasons represents a criminal offense (bodily harm). The judges said that the children's right of physical integrity weighs more than the parents right of religious freedom.

Excellent.
 
zrs70
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:29 pm

Historically, circumcision was a sign that said, "We (as a people) don't engage in human sacrifice."

But that history is not so meaningful today.

I am a propane of religious circumcision, though I understand the arguments on both sides. But it should be understood that anesthetics SHOULD BE USED. I have never worked with a moyel who does not use it.
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na
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 81):

Very good. Prevents that this practice is being introduced through the backdoor of foreign culture.
 
daviation
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:11 pm

Obviously this issue is never going to be decided one way or the other.

I'm just going to say that I was circumcised at birth and so was my son. I obviously don't remember it. My member is quite nice, thank you very much. And I'm in my 50s and it still works just fine. And my partners (not that I've had so very many, unfortunately!) were all very happy with it. It doesn't take any extra work at all.

I attended my son's circumcision. He cried for about five seconds.

People from other cultures have all kinds of bodily traditions - Africans enlarge the earlobes, Chinese change the shape of their feet.

I thought it was funny that San Francisco tried to outlaw circumcision. This is the same city that will die for a woman's 'right' to kill her fetus (yeah, let's talk about that hot topic!), but won't allow her to snip off a bit of unnecessary skin.

Three cheers for cut dicks!
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Tugger
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 85):
I was circumcised at birth and so was my son.

This is really the only thing it is all about. Dad wants (or demands) his son to be like him. Period. That's it.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:28 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 85):
Three cheers for cut dicks!

You celebrate genital mutilation?   
 
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zckls04
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:53 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 85):
I thought it was funny that San Francisco tried to outlaw circumcision. This is the same city that will die for a woman's 'right' to kill her fetus (yeah, let's talk about that hot topic!)

I agree that was wrong; it's too widespread to be outlawed right now IMO. It is becoming less fashionable which is a good thing, and I expect that trend to continue without the need for a ban.

Having said that I don't think one's opinion on abortion should preclude one from having an opinion on circumcision. If (presumably like you) you believe that life begins at conception and that a ball of 8 cells counts as a living being, then the position you outline above may seem hypocritical. However if, like many, you think that life begins rather later than that, then it's perfectly consistent. It depends where that line of life is drawn.

Personally I favor Bill Hicks' view. You're not a human 'til you're in my phone book.
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DocLightning
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 81):
As of today, a German court ruled that circumcising children for religious reasons represents a criminal offense (bodily harm). The judges said that the children's right of physical integrity weighs more than the parents right of religious freedom.

I agree. If female circumcision is wrong, then it logically follows that male circumcision is wrong. Just because it doesn't "do as much damage" doesn't mean that it's OK.

However, what Germany forgets (and what San Francisco forgot) is that all that is going to happen is that Jewish and Muslim parents are simply going to take their kids elsewhere, get them circumcised, and come back. Now, you have an enforceability problem.
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daviation
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 86):
Dad wants (or demands) his son to be like him.
Quoting bgm (Reply 87):
You celebrate genital mutilation?

Well, obviously I don't agree with your assessment. But you're entitled to your opinion.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 88):
a ball of 8 cells counts as a living being

If your wife has ever had a miscarriage at, say, six weeks, and you've wept over that fetus and what could have been a child to love, then yes, I think life begins before birth. Or had a friend whose wife gave birth prematurely and the fetus had to be on life support for three months, then yes, you have a new appreciation for when life might begin. Your phonebook remark is witty and funny, but it doesn't affect the tragedies that happen in real life. For the record, I do believe in a woman's right to an abortion, but I think we should call it what it is. Killing a life.

And most of the women I know think uncut weiners look awful. I guess it's just what they're used to seeing. Who knows if it's right or wrong.

[Edited 2012-06-26 14:48:33]
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kiwiandrew

RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 86):
Dad wants (or demands) his son to be like him.

I suspect you may be right. Perhaps there is some sort of reverse Oedipal thing going on where the father thinks, "well, I don't want my son to be able to experience pleasures which my parents denied to me" . I am sure Freud would have had a field day, except of course that as he was undoubtedly cut, he may have never thought to question it  
 
daviation
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 91):
I don't want my son to be able to experience pleasures which my parents denied to me

That is certainly one of the most bizarre thesis I've read. I don't think my parents denied me any pleasures. And I can't imagine that anyone would think I'd want to deny my son anything.

How very very odd.
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Tugger
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:13 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 90):
Quoting tugger (Reply 86):
Dad wants (or demands) his son to be like him.
[....]

Well, obviously I don't agree with your assessment. But you're entitled to your opinion.

But then why on earth would you even consider doing it? Look I am not attacking you or anything, it's just that unless you did it for religious reasons (which you didn't note and I have no reason to assume) there is no real reason to do something like this to a baby boy.

I have held my kids tightly as they bawled when getting their shots and I do that for the reason that it has proven benefits for their health and longevity. But there is no significant benefit to a circumcision, so unless there was some underlying reason, the main reason why almost every father wants their son to be circumcised is because they are and they can't imagine their son not looking like them, "it was good enough for me, it is good enough for my son".

Don't take it the wrong way, it is a real reason why things are done ("it was done to me and I am fine"). I have quite a few friends that have stated this as their reason.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-06-26 15:22:33]
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kiwiandrew

RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:13 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 92):
I don't think my parents denied me any pleasures. And I can't imagine that anyone would think I'd want to deny my son anything.

I suggest you read the entire thread, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that in general cut penises have far less sensitivity than uncut. Ask any of your gay friends who have experienced both types and I can virtually guarantee they will confirm this from real life experience.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 92):
I don't think my parents denied me any pleasures.

But they did, even if they did not mean to at all and it wasn't even in their minds.

I don't get why some here can't accept that something that remains covered and protected is going to be more sensitive than something that is not covered and protected. I will offer that perhaps it could be similar to the sensation of sex with a condom on versus sex without a condom. So imagine that difference and add it to your sensation of sex without a condom and you will begin to imagine what an uncircumcised man can experience.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:28 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 94):
I suggest you read the entire thread, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that in general cut penises have far less sensitivity than uncut.

Let's leave that aside for a moment. Sexual pleasure is appreciated in the brain, not in the penis. Anyone who who owns a working penis knows that the exact same stimulus applied prior to ejaculation is interpreted VERY differently than immediately after ejaculation. Before it is: "OMG YES!" and right after it is: "OMG STOP!" There just isn't a way to compare directly whether I experience less or more "pleasure" during sex than an uncircumcised man, and "sensitivity" isn't exactly the gift that everyone treats it as.

The issue is the fact that this is a normal part of a male body. This is not an extra finger or a skin tag. It's supposed to be there. There is no medical justification for removing it routinely. There is no ethical justification for removing it without a medical indication. It belongs to the infant, not the parents, not the doctor, not the Rabbi.
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lewis
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 96):
There is no medical justification for removing it routinely.

I am curious, since you are a doctor, how is circumcision presented at medical school. Is it taught as something that should be pushed to the patients or do they leave it to your discretion? Also, how do insurance companies treat it, since you could argue whether the surgery is cosmetic or necessary.

[Edited 2012-06-26 16:35:01]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:45 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 97):
I am curious, since you are a doctor, how is circumcision presented at medical school. Is it taught as something that should be pushed to the patients or do they leave it to your discretion?

The American Academy of Pediatrics formal position on circumcision:

Quote:
Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided.
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zckls04
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RE: Male Circumcision - Are You For Or Against It?

Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:58 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 90):
If your wife has ever had a miscarriage at, say, six weeks, and you've wept over that fetus and what could have been a child to love, then yes, I think life begins before birth. Or had a friend whose wife gave birth prematurely and the fetus had to be on life support for three months, then yes, you have a new appreciation for when life might begin.

Probably. But being emotionally invested in a subject isn't the best foundation for sensible policy, so that's a moot point. In any case I have been careful to avoid stating my definition of when life begins- it's certainly not at birth!

Anyway, that's very off-topic. The point was not to get into an argument about abortion but to explain why your claim of hypocrisy in SF was fallacious when viewed from the angle of somebody who does not believe life begins at conception. For them it is perfectly consistent to be pro-choice and be against circumcision.

Quoting daviation (Reply 90):
Your phonebook remark is witty and funny, but it doesn't affect the tragedies that happen in real life.

It's not my remark- I'm merely requoting Bill Hicks in attempt to lighten the mood. Fffpt.

Quoting daviation (Reply 90):
And most of the women I know think uncut weiners look awful

If we're being honest here, the appearance of the penis is not its strongest point whether it's cut or uncut   .
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