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na
Posts: 9871
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:02 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 97):
The fact that Vettel has breached the strict letter of the law is not in dispute. However, that he should be penalised for it in such a manner is the issue in dispute.

Ok, so what would be your verdict then? A mere reprimand of cause out of question due to obvious reasons of making a repeat foul possible.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 97):
Yes, I'm biased. Of the current drivers on the F1 grid, Vettel is my favourite. And you know what? The childish anti-Vettel vitriol that I see here only makes me more resolute in my position.

That someone is biased towards a driver is fair enough. Hardly anyone isnt. But if anything is typically childish here its your stubborness. There is no "vitriol" against Vettel. As I said, I liked him too until he started to behave like an adolescent bad looser in recent races. He has won two championships, he should be more relaxed. Instead he accuses the world for mistakes he made.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:03 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 97):
Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 80):
Would Vettel have been in front if he did not go off the track?

Yes.

How so? Saying the next corner doesn't count.

Fred
 
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moo
Posts: 5116
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:36 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 97):
Yes, I'm biased. Of the current drivers on the F1 grid, Vettel is my favourite. And you know what? The childish anti-Vettel vitriol that I see here only makes me more resolute in my position.

I'm not anti-Vettel in any shape - hes one of the three drivers I follow.

Currently, Hamilton isn't one of them, as hes wasting his time in F1 right now - hes not wowing, hes not producing.

Button is a nice dark horse but fails to produce on a regular basis.

The only driver I have actually come to dislike is Alonso - after the entire spat with McLaren over Hamilton, his position as number one driver and the Ferrari spygate saga, his arrogance has just put me dead set against him and whatever team he drives for.
 
na
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:57 am

Quoting moo (Reply 102):
The only driver I have actually come to dislike is Alonso - after the entire spat with McLaren over Hamilton, his position as number one driver and the Ferrari spygate saga, his arrogance has just put me dead set against him and whatever team he drives for.

I didnt like him when he drove for Renault, and even less so when he drove for McLaren due to the bad show he put up then. I admit for me he was one of the most disliked drivers back then.
But he has become wiser now, and a lot so. He doesnt make mistakes on the track, or off the track this season. Imho he is the most complete driver. That he´s driving for my favorite team of cause helps that I like him now. But that doesnt mean I think he´s very sympathetic.

Quoting moo (Reply 102):
I'm not anti-Vettel in any shape - hes one of the three drivers I follow.

Vettel and Red Bull have lost a lot of sympathy in my eyes recently, the team even more so than the driver. But I have to say I generally dislike it when the same man or team wins again and again. Never liked it, with the exception of Schumacher/Ferrari.
 
bill142
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:08 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 97):
However, that he should be penalised for it in such a manner is the issue in dispute.

I'm going to book mark that quote so that when I steal your car, and break the law in doing so, I can use that in my defence. While I've broken the law, I'll dispute the penalty because I don't think it's fair.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 88):
and judging from your screen shot, wouldn't you say Button is sort of pushing him outside the track?

Why does it matter if Button is pushing him out? I don't understand why people think Button should have capitulated and handed over the position. Button had every right to hold his line through the corner. Anyone attempting a pass has to work around those circumstances.

Quoting na (Reply 100):
He has won two championships,

Got lucky twice, you mean.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 97):

The Hamilton-Rosberg incident in Bahrain has an eerie similarity with the Vettel-Button incident at Hockenheim. If one incident went unpunished, then so should the other.

You know as well as the rest of us that consistency in the application of rules is not one of the strong points of the FIA. What further dents your argument about Hamilton/Rosberg is that only in the past few races has the FIA moved to clarify their position on overtaking off the track.
 
CXB77L
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:36 am

Quoting moo (Reply 99):
I'm really curious as to what advantage you really think Hamilton gained by going off track - it was a straight, so no ground was cut, he didn't gain anythingin braking, momentum or acceleration wise, the fact that he was abreast of Rosberg going into the corner was simply down to straight line speed during the sprint to the corner. In doing what he did Hamilton took the long way round Rosberg and dirtied his tyres in the process.

As someone else mentioned regarding the Vettel-Button incident, if this happened in Monaco or Canada, Vettel would've had no choice but to lift off or go into the barrier. Applying that same test, Hamilton would also have had to lift off or go into the barrier. Had Hamilton lifted off and ducked back to the other side of Rosberg, would he have maintained sufficient momentum that he could be beside Rosberg in the braking zone? I contend that if Hamilton had lifted off in the straight and manoeuvred around Rosberg, he would have had the outside line rather than the inside line under braking for the next corner, and thus he would not have been able to make the pass stick until after that turn.

Quoting na (Reply 100):
Ok, so what would be your verdict then?

Racing incident, no penalty - because there has been a precedent where a driver has overtaken off the track and wasn't penalised.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 101):
How so? Saying the next corner doesn't count.

Vettel got on the power earlier than Button. I contend that if Button hadn't steered his car to the kerb, thereby squeezing Vettel out of the track, then Vettel would've been able to make the pass stick without going off track.

I'm not saying that Button wasn't entitled to defend his position. He was. But in doing so, it forced Vettel into an evasive manoeuvre which ultimately was in breach of the rules. Nevertheless, he could've made the pass stick without breaching the rules if Button hadn't shut the door.

Quoting moo (Reply 102):
I'm not anti-Vettel in any shape - hes one of the three drivers I follow.

No, I wasn't referring to you at all. There are a few of you that do present valid arguments for the penalty to apply to Vettel. It's those calling Vettel a "crybaby" or "good at nothing but blaming others" that I directed my comment at.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 104):
Got lucky twice, you mean.

 

[Edited 2012-07-26 03:39:29]
 
racko
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:54 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 105):
Applying that same test, Hamilton would also have had to lift off or go into the barrier. Had Hamilton lifted off and ducked back to the other side of Rosberg, would he have maintained sufficient momentum that he could be beside Rosberg in the braking zone? I contend that if Hamilton had lifted off in the straight and manoeuvred around Rosberg, he would have had the outside line rather than the inside line under braking for the next corner, and thus he would not have been able to make the pass stick until after that turn.

  

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 97):
The childish anti-Vettel vitriol that I see here only makes me more resolute in my position.

That's the price you pay for being very good. Schumacher had even worse things hurled at him for much of his career.

Quoting moo (Reply 96):
The stewards don't tend to issue penalties or instructions in the final couple of laps - there are too few laps left to react after the incident is reviewed, so all penalties are issued after the race usually as drive through equivalents.

Red Bull stated in post-race interviews that in "corner-cutting" incidents the stewards usually immediately write an e-mail that basically says "looked fishy, if you don't give the position back there'll be an investigation". Sauber confirmed that this is the usual procedure. No such e-mail was written to Red Bull. Given that lack of an informal e-mail as well as clear precedence in form of the Rosberg/Hamilton-incident, not giving the position back was the reasonable thing to do for Vettel and Red Bull.
 
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moo
Posts: 5116
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:05 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 105):
As someone else mentioned regarding the Vettel-Button incident, if this happened in Monaco or Canada, Vettel would've had no choice but to lift off or go into the barrier. Applying that same test, Hamilton would also have had to lift off or go into the barrier. Had Hamilton lifted off and ducked back to the other side of Rosberg, would he have maintained sufficient momentum that he could be beside Rosberg in the braking zone? I contend that if Hamilton had lifted off in the straight and manoeuvred around Rosberg, he would have had the outside line rather than the inside line under braking for the next corner, and thus he would not have been able to make the pass stick until after that turn.

But there we are seriously getting into the realms of what ifs - its hard to argue that Hamilton gained any sort of advantage over Rosberg by going off the track, onto a visibly dirty section of track not just to go around him, but to go the long way round him.

I agree that if Hamilton had backed off, he would have remained behind Rosberg at the corner.

But equally, if Hamilton had just remained straight when Rosberg went to the outside, Hamilton would have had him in the drag race and probably come out in front at the corner.

Its difficult to compare the two, because one infraction happened in a straight line, the other happened in a low speed tight corner.

Quoting racko (Reply 106):
Red Bull stated in post-race interviews that in "corner-cutting" incidents the stewards usually immediately write an e-mail that basically says "looked fishy, if you don't give the position back there'll be an investigation". Sauber confirmed that this is the usual procedure. No such e-mail was written to Red Bull. Given that lack of an informal e-mail as well as clear precedence in form of the Rosberg/Hamilton-incident, not giving the position back was the reasonable thing to do for Vettel and Red Bull.

As I said in my post, during the last couple of laps the stewards do not award on track penalties - there isnt the time to react, to review the footage, to make the decision, to send the email, have the team issue the orders, and have the driver relinquish his position safely.

For the same reason they don't issue drive throughs or stop-goes in the last couple of laps - there isnt enough time to react.

There is no rule saying that the stewards must send an email - they can do whatever they wish, and the standard practice for the dying moments of a race is to sort out infractions during that period after the race. Which they did.

Go back and see what the stewards wanted to do with Schumacher, after he nearly forced Barrichello into the pit lane wall - they wanted to black flag him, but it was the last couple of laps and so they didnt. He got a post race penalty instead.

[Edited 2012-07-26 04:22:07]
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4194
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:06 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 105):
Vettel got on the power earlier than Button. I contend that if Button hadn't steered his car to the kerb, thereby squeezing Vettel out of the track, then Vettel would've been able to make the pass stick without going off track.

I'm not saying that Button wasn't entitled to defend his position. He was. But in doing so, it forced Vettel into an evasive manoeuvre which ultimately was in breach of the rules. Nevertheless, he could've made the pass stick without breaching the rules if Button hadn't shut the door.

Button was within his rights with regards to the rules and vettel could either have put his foot on the brake or gone off the track and not over taken in the process, he was not forced to overtake off the track.

Fred
 
sudden
Posts: 3936
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:20 pm

RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:18 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 97):
The childish anti-Vettel vitriol that I see here only makes me more resolute in my position.

Vettel or not, the penalty was correct. To rule it as a race incident would open lots of doors! Aand I can assure you that this is not what any of us want to see.

Quoting racko (Reply 106):
That's the price you pay for being very good. Schumacher had even worse things hurled at him for much of his career.

Oh so wrong. I flip that coin to say that Vettel is spoiled beyond limits due to the fact that he hold 2 titles.
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:42 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 97):
I have no problems with rule changes and clarifications in between seasons, but there shouldn't be a situation where one action or one car is legal one week and illegal the next.



But we've seen it often enough before. Typically it happens where one team bends the rule beyond the "spirit" or "intent" of that rule. In those situations, what normally happens is that other teams either protest, or threaten to protest. This then normally leads to a clarification or a re-writing of the rules. It's certainly not perfect, but it's what we have.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 97):
I think that's debatable whether he would've been given a drive-through penalty.



It's the proscribed punishment for such an offence. Given how late it was in the race, the stewards didn't have time to investigate and punish in the race time remaining, so the retrospective time penalty was the next obvious choice.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 105):
But in doing so, it forced Vettel into an evasive manoeuvre which ultimately was in breach of the rules. Nevertheless, he could've made the pass stick without breaching the rules if Button hadn't shut the door.



"Could have" and "if" are not relevent.   

The only thing that counts is what actually happened. Vettel chose to go off-track and continue his attempted overtake. He was being legitimately squeezed by Button and he should have lifted off and fallen in behind the McLaren. In all probability he would have soon passed Button, but in taking the action he did, he not only made a bad decision but he (and his team) failed to comprehend the obvious consequence. Button spotted it immediately and asked his team "Did he pass me off the circuit?" Their almost immediate response indicated that not only had they spotted it, but that they had already taken the action of alerting the FIA to it.

Quoting racko (Reply 106):
Red Bull stated in post-race interviews that in "corner-cutting" incidents the stewards usually immediately write an e-mail that basically says "looked fishy, if you don't give the position back there'll be an investigation". Sauber confirmed that this is the usual procedure. No such e-mail was written to Red Bull. Given that lack of an informal e-mail as well as clear precedence in form of the Rosberg/Hamilton-incident, not giving the position back was the reasonable thing to do for Vettel and Red Bull.



As above, there was insufficient time left for the incident to be reviewed (let alone investigated) and Red Bull advised. The "precedence" is frankly a red herring - it had subsequently been clarified to the drivers and teams what the situation was with respect to gaining an advantage by leaving the circuit, so the Hamilton/Rosberg incident has no bearing on the Vettel/Button one.
 
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EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting na (Reply 103):
But he has become wiser now, and a lot so. He doesnt make mistakes on the track, or off the track this season. Imho he is the most complete driver. That he´s driving for my favorite team of cause helps that I like him now. But that doesnt mean I think he´s very sympathetic.

Could not agree more. Alonso used to be a royal pain. Always a good driver, but I hated him. The last couple of seasons he put all his efforts in doing what he knows best; driving. And he has put away the cry baby attitude he used to have.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 104):
Why does it matter if Button is pushing him out? I don't understand why people think Button should have capitulated and handed over the position. Button had every right to hold his line through the corner

Well, if he is pushing him out, he is not holding his line. Button was forcing Vettel out of the track. That's how I see it after watching the replays over and over again. In fact, at first I didn't see it that way (even though I still disagreed with the penalty), but the more I watch it, the more I'm convinced that Vettel was forced out.
 
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zckls04
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 111):
Could not agree more. Alonso used to be a royal pain. Always a good driver, but I hated him. The last couple of seasons he put all his efforts in doing what he knows best; driving. And he has put away the cry baby attitude he used to have.

I remember disliking Alonso a lot during the Hamilton feud and especially during the spy saga, but I've since started to like him a lot. He moans a lot less and lets his (brilliant) driving do the talking. I also remember seeing a great interview with him where an interviewer asked him "are you concerned that you are seen as a villain in the press?", and he replied something like "I don't care if I'm a villain or a hero, as long as I'm one of the lead players."

He phrased it better than I did, but I liked him a lot more after that.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 111):
Well, if he is pushing him out, he is not holding his line. Button was forcing Vettel out of the track. That's how I see it after watching the replays over and over again. In fact, at first I didn't see it that way (even though I still disagreed with the penalty), but the more I watch it, the more I'm convinced that Vettel was forced out.

Button held his line which he was entirely entitled to do. He had no obligation to give Vettel room, nor should he have done. The racing line is the widest line one can take around that corner, which was the one Button took. I've watched the replays repeatedly and it's very clear.
 
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moo
Posts: 5116
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RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:50 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 112):
The racing line is the widest line one can take around that corner, which was the one Button took.

Although according to some, theres a wider line that should be allowed  
 
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EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: F1 2012: German Grand Prix

Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 112):
I remember disliking Alonso a lot during the Hamilton feud and especially during the spy saga, but I've since started to like him a lot. He moans a lot less and lets his (brilliant) driving do the talking

     

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 112):
I've watched the replays repeatedly and it's very clear.

which proves how everything can be seen differently depending on who is watching 

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