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Mir
Posts: 19491
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:10 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 97):
To protect property rights, the Second Amendment was created.

Actually, the Second Amendment itself is very clear on why it was created: it was for the purpose of a well-regulated militia.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
windy95
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 89):
Nice try yourselfDo you really have to split hairs ?Whatever your opinion, The US is now the biggest market for these Russian killing machines...simply amazing !

There is no splitting hairs. You stated that they are "machine guns" which they are not. And yes they are an amazing weapon. Every home should have one. Most people I know are adding them to thei arsenal duo to the durability.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 89):
Start to set an example for the rest of the world to follow !

We are...get your own AK now...

Quoting Mir (Reply 100):
it was for the purpose of a well-regulated militia.

And the States should get back to having a well-regulated Militia. To better protect us from foreign invasion like with the illegals coming across our border's and to protect the State from an overbearing Federal government.
 
globeex
Posts: 265
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:24 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 101):
Most people I know are adding them to thei arsenal duo to the durability.

And they are fun to play with as well  
Quoting windy95 (Reply 101):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 89):
Start to set an example for the rest of the world to follow !

We are...get your own AK now...

The sad thing is that this isn't sarcasm.
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:54 am

Quoting globeex (Reply 102):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 101):
Most people I know are adding them to thei arsenal duo to the durability.

And they are fun to play with as well

Yes, they are. At paper targets. BTW, the one you are showing did not come from Izmash in Russia, but from former Yugoslavia.

I think there is a bit of a diference between responsible gun owners and murderous African militias, who are arming children, who can barely lift the weapon.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
globeex
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:45 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 103):
I think there is a bit of a diference between responsible gun owners and murderous African militias, who are arming children, who can barely lift the weapon.

like that?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC6SYfmIfe4

or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFfqNCblmxo&feature=fvwrel
(looking really responsible with the beer cans BTW)

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkq2yK2mf0E&feature=related

... and that's only the beginning.

Certainly the persuit is a different one. On the other hand, enough people justify their possession of a gun with the 2nd (militia)... so it really isn't as different as many would like it to be.

The bottom line: Guns are no toys. They have a purpose. Their purpose is to kill and if you don't recognize this, you shouldn't be allowed to posess a gun. If you want to own one, you should prove (regularly) that you are, ALWAYS, mentally able to judge when you are allowed, and when it is appropriate to use it in order to minimize misues/abuse. Blowing up things while having a beer or two in order to prove your manhood on a shooting range is not included in this responsible behaviour. If you see it as a sport (improve your skills) that's fine. Regularly shooting on gas filled containers to blow them up on a range however doesn't have anything to to with improving your skills. It rather says that you seem to have aggressions, which shouldn't allow you to have a gun in the first place.

You should have to prove that you are able to store your fireweapons in that way that noone else (incl. your kids) has any access to it. That means, that it is always (!!!) securely locked away, while you are not carrying it. Should also be made aware that any abuse comitted with the gun you bought is at least partially your fault. Meaning: If a crime (or even accident) is comitted with a gun you bought that wasn't securely locked away in a gun locker while abstracted, you should be seriously punished too. This applies for guns that were stolen from your car, your kitchentable or any other location where you merely had to break a window in order to get posession of the weapon, because that's not what "securely stored" means.

[Edited 2012-08-18 04:51:42]

[Edited 2012-08-18 05:21:32]
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
 
Mir
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:50 pm

Quoting globeex (Reply 104):
Blowing up things while having a beer or two in order to prove your manhood on a shooting range is not included in this responsible behaviour.

I agree with much of what you said, but I've got to object here. If one wants gun owners to be proficient in the use of their weapons (and I do), then it makes sense for them to pay visits to the shooting range on a regular basis. And if you want people to go to the shooting range, one has to accept that people may want to have a little fun while they're doing it. It is, after all, a hobby for many, and you're going to put off those people if you insist that target practice be a solemn and serious affair all the time. There is no reason that one can't have fun responsibly.

Quoting globeex (Reply 104):
Meaning: If a crime (or even accident) is comitted with a gun you bought that wasn't securely locked away in a gun locker while abstracted, you should be seriously punished too.

I'll make it even more general than that: you're responsible for what happens with your gun, regardless of where you keep it. If you don't want to keep it in a locker because you feel you need it by your bed for defense, go ahead, but that's going to increase the chances of it being used for a purpose you didn't intend, and if that happens you'll be held at least partially responsible.

And I'd extend that responsibility to selling a gun as well. Currently, in some states you don't have to go through a background check if you buy a gun from a private seller as opposed to a licensed dealer. Fine, but if you're a gun owner and you sell to someone without them going through a background check, and then that gun ends up being used in a crime, you're going to share responsibility.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Pyrex
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 99):

Talk about twisting things.

"People should not be afraid of their government, government should be afraid of their people." - Thomas Jefferson

You can say argue that the Second Amendment is not effective at protecting property rights (it didn't stop that petty thief FDR from nationalizing the property of all Americans with Executive Order 6102) but that is another discussion.

Quoting globeex (Reply 102):
And they are fun to play with as well

Oh sweet, a double clip! How did he manage to get that?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Rara
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:18 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 103):
Yes, they are. At paper targets.

There you go with your paper targets again. Hey, I know where you're coming from and you're totally right. But you're missing the point. Read this thread. The gun nuts in here (I'm not including everyone who's against gun control here, but there clearly are some gun nuts) don't wanna shoot at paper targets. They talk about burglars, self-defence and overthrowing the government. They're talking about using those guns for their originally intended purpose. The fact that guns can be used for recreation is, well, something like a factoid here. People who advocate an AK-47 for every household are probably sniggering about your paper targets.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
globeex
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 107):
People who advocate an AK-47 for every household are probably sniggering about your paper targets.

Or they are heavy users of that kind:
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
 
mham001
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 89):
Do you really have to split hairs ?

Yes, we split hairs because the difference is stark.

It is really quite easy to spot gun critics who have literally no idea what they are talking about. The first thing they do is start spewing about >gasp> "semi-automatics" Then they confuse that with "automatic". The media gnomes constantly do this and it is no wonder people are confused - it is nothing more than misinformation.

While you start throwing out articles from suspect sources, the AK-47s sold in the US are much different than those sold to militias around the world. An AK-47 sold here is no more lethal than most hunting rifles, outside of a larger magazine and being smaller (which is actually detrimental). It shoots the same bullets at the same speed with less accuracy.

You might want to brush up on the differences between semi-auto and full-auto. You would look much better informed.
 
globeex
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 109):
An AK-47 sold here is no more lethal than most hunting rifles, outside of a larger magazine and being smaller (which is actually detrimental). It shoots the same bullets at the same speed with less accuracy.

So what is the point then in buying a Kalash?
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
 
mham001
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:50 pm

Quoting globeex (Reply 110):
So what is the point then in buying a Kalash?

The vast majority of guns are bought by hobbyists. The Ak has an incredible history but was not always available here for purchase. It also has a good aftermarket for accessories. People like to bling their guns too. I will eventually buy one. My current favorite is an SKS.
 
globeex
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 111):
It also has a good aftermarket for accessories. People like to bling their guns too. I will eventually buy one. My current favorite is an SKS.

See, and that the issue. Guns are neither a toy nor a fashion object. It's not a god damn ipod. It's an object built in order to kill not to show off. Anybody who doesn't get this should not be allowed to own a gun, since they don't seem to have the maturity of possessing an object that was built in order to kill.

Having an object that doesn't bring you any advantages apart from a statistically significant higher risk of being killed when robbed or simply by accident and showing off with this is not what I call a mature rational person.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I would rather be robbed twice than shoot somebody while he tries to break into my house. And that is not even counting in the fact that it is far more likely that I will be killed during a robbery if carrying a gun.

BTW, I have been robbed at knife point.
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:45 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 47):
import an full Auto AK-47 into the USA, I have never even seen one for sale. They would be legal if they were here before 1968 with documentation

[

Quoting windy95 (Reply 85):
You could not legally import the full auto version

read my entire statement before you misquote me. I said it wasn't legal, but if you did have one that was here before 1968, with documentation it would be. There are plenty of illegaly imported models on our streets, I don't think they are that hard to get. Considering all of my guns are purchased wholesale from legal wholesalers I don't ever see the illegal stuff.

I meet people all the time who just don't think drug cartels would be importing illegal weapons because where would they get them? If drug cartels can ship large amounts of drugs on fairly large aircraft and have networks of people around the globe they certianly can buy arms from various shady arms dealers around the world. I very much doubt a sophisticated drug cartel from Columbia (or wherever) just has a guy buying one legal gun at a time from a sporting goods store in Texas. It would be cheaper and earier to buy them bulk by crateload from somewhere in Africa.



There are all kinds of machine guns that are legal in the US with the right paperwork and they are VERY VERY expensive. I have seen legal BARs start at $25,000 and the prices go higher and higher. There are machine gun shooting events every year in the USA and it is full of very wealthy collectors. I have a friend that flies to one in Kentucky every year and his Beechcaft Bonanza sticks out because it is one of the cheapest aircraft that get flown in.

Quoting Mir (Reply 91):
but they do view their actions as acceptable

in what way. I haven't seen any public statements that are accepting of murder.

Maybe you should read about a years worth of American Rifleman and come to an NRA convention before you condem the NRA and learn what they are really about.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 93):
The NRA is to powerful.

Yep... Money from me and millions of others keeps it that way.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 95):
One legal dealer had a billboard pushing discounts for volume purchases

Was at dealer or wholesaler? I'm and FFL holder and I get advertisements from wholesalers who do offer volume discounts, much the same way wholesalers or any product work.

Quoting Mir (Reply 100):
Actually, the Second Amendment itself is very clear on why it was created: it was for the purpose of a well-regulated militia.

That is only part of it.... You are forgetting the other half of it.... The thinking that the second amendment means we can have a national guard or reserve army is ridiculous. No government needs to create a document giving them the right to have armed forces.

Quoting globeex (Reply 102):
The sad thing is that this isn't sarcasm.

That picture speaks volumes. That gun looks to be almost new and is probably in Africa. That grenade launcher on the front is a give away, that thing was never legally imported to the USA.

Quoting globeex (Reply 110):
So what is the point then in buying a Kalash?

Because I can...

Quoting globeex (Reply 108):
Or they are heavy users of that kind:

I have seen one of those with Bush on it too.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 89):
The US is now the biggest market for these Russian killing machines

That may be, but the legal ones are't coming direct from Russian manufactures. The AKs can't be imported, or other rifles, with all non US parts, pistols are different. When you buy a legal AK-47 or other non US assault rifle it will at least 5 US made parts. The receiver will be US made for sure (which is what makes a gun a gun and is the regulated item) and in many cases so is the barrel. The trigger group of an AK-47 will need to be especially for an semi auto model too and many times that is US made.

Here are a couple of examples of what I'm talking about...

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb309/NWA747/1976AK-47MRomania-1.jpg

This is my AKM-47, which is "Romanian". I bought this gun as a parts kit with a destroyed receiver, but at the time the imported barrel was still legal. The kit form is how most of these come to the USA, assuming they are legal imports to be sold by legal means. I chose to assemble mine myself, but that isn't recommended unless you have the know how and tools. The receiver is US made and is for semi auto only. I had to buy a receiver and that is a regulated part, because that is what makes a gun a gun, the other pieces are just parts. This particular gun is US legal and has six US made parts, which must indicate such. Most builders who sell the guns legal make guns look good and use a lot of US made external parts because a good looking gun commands a higher price. Mine is made from as many external original parts as possible so it looks bad. My US made parts are three trigger group parts, the flash suppressor, the receiver, the piston and magazine.

Could I have made a full auto? yes, but I would be breaking the law and because the original receiver was destroyed (by law) I would have needed another one.

This is my Polish PPS-43C

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb309/NWA747/PPS-43CPoland-1.jpg

This is a new gun which is made 100% in Poland. To be US legal at 100% imported parts it is classified as a pistol and the folding stock is permanently folded. I could very easily make the stock fold out, but that would make it a long gun and therefore illegal to have without the US parts. I find that stupid because the gun is a lot safer and easier to use with the stock folded out. This gun is made to be semi auto for the US market, it is essentially a WWII design. Could this gun be made to be full auto? Beats the hell out of me.... I'm not really interested in breaking the law to make a full auto gun anyway.
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Mir
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 113):
in what way. I haven't seen any public statements that are accepting of murder.

They wouldn't be that stupid. It's what they don't say that's telling.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 113):
That is only part of it.... You are forgetting the other half of it....

No I'm not. I was only talking about the rationale behind the Second Amendment. The rest of the clause is the important part, but it doesn't say a thing about why the amendment is there in the first place.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
mham001
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:09 pm

Quoting globeex (Reply 112):
See, and that the issue. Guns are neither a toy nor a fashion object. It's not a god damn ipod.

That is your opinion. The definition of a toy can be very different to other people. Many feel the same way about other things, such as cars. To most, they are an appliance. Others like to accessorize their cars.

While you continue to focus on the killing aspect, we have people who just like to collect guns, as some like to collect stamps or coins. The vast majority of all weapons sold around the world will never kill anything or even fired in anger.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 107):
There you go with your paper targets again. Hey, I know where you're coming from and you're totally right. But you're missing the point. Read this thread. The gun nuts in here (I'm not including everyone who's against gun control here, but there clearly are some gun nuts) don't wanna shoot at paper targets. They talk about burglars, self-defence and overthrowing the government. They're talking about using those guns for their originally intended purpose. The fact that guns can be used for recreation is, well, something like a factoid here. People who advocate an AK-47 for every household are probably sniggering about your paper targets.

You don´t get me, no?
I like to shoot at paper targets and I like to be good at it. I´m also interested in historical military weapons (Alllied side, especially British and Russian). I would like to collect some live WW2 rifles (somehow I´m not that attracted to handguns), but at the moment I don´t want to bother with all the paperwork and legal issues, so I collect deactivated rifles (and some deactivated submachine guns) instead. So far the only live gun I own is a replica of an American civil war Sharps Carbine using black powder, which is available in Germany to anybody above the age of 18. I don´t have a black powder licence though, but having studied chemistry in college for several semestres, I think I could make it if necessary.Don´t think just because it is old a .54 (13.6 mm) calibre bullet is harmless. It is a buffalo calibre. I don´t feel an urge to kill someone or something. If necessary I would hunt for food or for a cull (to kill an excess population of a certain animal for ecological reasons because the natural predators (wolves and bears) don´t exist here anymore. But hunting is not just stalking, shooting and killing, but the whole messy business of butchering afterwards. So I would consider it a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. As for hunting for trophies and "the joy of killing", I don´t get it at all.
This doesn´t mean that I would not defend myself and the people I care for with all means legal and to my disposal if necessary.
At the moment I don´t see the need to carry a gun in Germany. One reason I think the crime rate in rural villages, like the one I live in, is very low, is that most of my neighbours have hunting licences and own several guns (up to five long arms and two handguns). A burglar or robber here wouldn´t know if he would have to confront an angry farmer with a shotgun. But in Iligan City in the Philippines, where my Missus comes from, I would bloody well have one (possibly a police type shotgun) at home.
Her brother, who is a police officer, always carries a gun with him, because as a cop he is never really off duty (e.g. we witnessed a hit and run accident in Cagayan de Oro while he was driving the family car and, after talking quickly to the victim, he set upon pursuing the culprit. We lost the culprit in the traffic, else he would have arrested him).

And I believe in article 20 of our constitution, which gives any citizen the ultima ratio right of armed resistance should the government (or anybody else) try to abolish the democratic order of the Federal Republic of Germany.
Don´t laught, but I believe in a "Wehrhafte Demokratie", a democratic system defended by the population against threats. So far our system hasn´t been threatened to the level which requires armed resistance.
But I´m in favour of gun laws, which make it harder for criminals, mental cases or political extremists to get access to guns. Criminals and political extremists will get them anyway, don´t be fooled, but it shouldn´t be too easy.
Ever since I was the victim of bullies stronger than myself in school I believe in not surrendering to them.
BTW, I own a deactivated AK-47 (actually a Model 56 rifle, the AKM copy from China). I wanted to know how the guys in the Hindukush can copys them using only handtools. I think, as a qualified mechanic and machinist, it would be quite easy.

Jan

Added: As for threats to our democratic system, I mean threats from both the radical left and the right, including Nazis and religious fanatics.

[Edited 2012-08-18 12:46:22]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
windy95
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting globeex (Reply 112):
It's an object built in order to kill not to show off. Anybody who doesn't get this should not be allowed to own a gun, since they don't seem to have the maturity of possessing an object that was built in order to kill.

The accessories and bling make for better use of the weapon. Not to show off.

Quoting globeex (Reply 112):
Having an object that doesn't bring you any advantages apart from a statistically significant higher risk of being killed when robbed

Where do these stats come from?

Quoting globeex (Reply 112):
or simply by accident and showing off with this is not what I call a mature rational person.

Somebody killing themselves while showing off is just Darwin's theory in practice.

Quoting globeex (Reply 112):
Maybe I'm the only one, but I would rather be robbed twice than shoot somebody while he tries to break into my house

They would not have the chance to rob me twice.

Quoting globeex (Reply 112):
And that is not even counting in the fact that it is far more likely that I will be killed during a robbery if carrying a gun.


Where do you get these stats?
 
globeex
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:04 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 116):
As for threats to our democratic system, I mean threats from both the radical left and the right, including Nazis and religious fanatics.

If you exchange "Nazis" with "extreme right" + religious fanatics you have the groups of people that are buying the most guns in the US.
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting globeex (Reply 118):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 116):
As for threats to our democratic system, I mean threats from both the radical left and the right, including Nazis and religious fanatics.

If you exchange "Nazis" with "extreme right" + religious fanatics you have the groups of people that are buying the most guns in the US.

Well, with me you have somebody who has voted for the social democrats during most elections in the past (and on some occasion the Greens and the FDP in local elections, never the CDU or jore to the right or to the left of the Greens).
Still, I studied a lot of WW2 history and did you know that more than 10,000 Germans were fighting in British uniforms, or that Willy Brandt was operating as a spy for the Allies inside Nazi Germany? These are my heroes.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
globeex
Posts: 265
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 117):
Quoting globeex (Reply 112):
Having an object that doesn't bring you any advantages apart from a statistically significant higher risk of being killed when robbed

Where do these stats come from?
Quoting windy95 (Reply 117):
Quoting globeex (Reply 112):
And that is not even counting in the fact that it is far more likely that I will be killed during a robbery if carrying a gun.


Where do you get these stats?
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...sk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/20.../04/carry-a-gun-you-get-shot-more/
or
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-kellermann.htm

"After eliminating the impact of other variables like illegal drugs and domestic violence, the researchers found that the risk of getting killed was 2.7 times greater in homes with a gun than without them. No protective benefit of possessing a firearm was ever found, not even for a single one of the 14 subgroups studied. "
Quoting windy95 (Reply 117):
Quoting globeex (Reply 112):
or simply by accident and showing off with this is not what I call a mature rational person.

Somebody killing themselves while showing off is just Darwin's theory in practice.

I meant it as two seperate actions.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 117):

They would not have the chance to rob me twice.

Because you got killed the first time?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 119):
Well, with me you have somebody who has voted for the social democrats during most elections in the past (and on some occasion the Greens and the FDP in local elections, never the CDU or jore to the right or to the left of the Greens).

Look, it's not that I want to abolish guns per se. I simply say that people get weapons for the wrong reasons and in order to own a (functioning) weapon you should get seriously checked if you are capable (and mentally healthy) to own a weapon. In addition, this check has to be done regularly.

[Edited 2012-08-18 13:40:47]

[Edited 2012-08-18 13:58:18]
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
 
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ManuCH
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 78):
Not really.
But I do find talk about, never being able to change/alter said document, rather perplexing.

Nothing stays the same forever, so therefore we need (civilizations around the world) to be able to accept that, and if that means changing the US constitution, then why not, You could make it an even bigger/better constitution than it already is?
But then again, you could end up making it worse..

Which leads to an interesting question: does the US have a democratic possibility to alter the constitution, if 50%+1 of the population wanted it?

In Switzerland, we can raise a so called popular initiative, where people can propose amendments to the constitution. If enough people vote for it, it's put in place. Does something similar exist in the US? Or who would be in charge of altering the constitution?
Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
 
mham001
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting globeex (Reply 118):
If you exchange "Nazis" with "extreme right" + religious fanatics you have the groups of people that are buying the most guns in the US.

Source please.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 121):
Does something similar exist in the US?

Yes. The initiative process has been wreaking havoc on the State of California for several decades now. Gridlock is much more preferable.
 
globeex
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 122):
Quoting globeex (Reply 118):
If you exchange "Nazis" with "extreme right" + religious fanatics you have the groups of people that are buying the most guns in the US.

Source please.

1) In the US 25.9% of Liberals own a gun, while 40.0% of conservatives own a gun.

2) 68% of protestant (that tend to be more fundamentalist than its catholic counter part) own handguns. Only 6%of the hand guns are owned by catholics. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1559-1816.1992.tb01533.x/abstract)
Sorry, you need a university subscription to open the paper.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:46 pm

Quoting globeex (Reply 123):

1) In the US 25.9% of Liberals own a gun, while 40.0% of conservatives own a gun.

You can argue that in Germany rightwings and neo-Nazis tend to volunteer for the military (probably due to some inbreed obedience to some authoritarian figure), unless the MAD (military intelligence) sieves them out (due to some scandals in the 1990s) while lefties will often reject military service due to moral reasons.
Guess who will have the military training and weapons and who will tell the lefties how to jump if push comes to shove?

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
globeex
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:51 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 124):
You can argue that in Germany rightwings and neo-Nazis tend to volunteer for the military (probably due to some inbreed obedience to some authoritarian figure), unless the MAD (military intelligence) sieves them out (due to some scandals in the 1990s) while lefties will often reject military service due to moral reasons.
Guess who will have the military training and weapons and who will tell the lefties how to jump if push comes to shove?

Yes you can argue this and it is probably right. You can also argue that people that go to the military instead of civil service are less intelligent on average (read that somewhere). But what does that tell me now? It rather supports my point, doesn't it?

(Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you here =) )
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting globeex (Reply 125):

Yes you can argue this and it is probably right. You can also argue that people that go to the military instead of civil service are less intelligent on average (read that somewhere). But what does that tell me now? It rather supports my point, doesn't it?

Sure, they´ll have the guns and the power, while you have the moral high ground. Typical German Prinzipienscheisserei.
And the less intelligent guys will lock you up. Typical German: Praise the martyr. Don´t defend yourself. Turn the other cheek, because our grandparents behaved like @rrseholes.
BTW, not all people in the military are daft. Even infantry takes a lot of knowledge and intelligence if you want to do the job well, but little is applicable in the civilian world.

Jan

[Edited 2012-08-18 16:00:06]
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globeex
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:22 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 126):
Sure, they´ll have the guns and the power, while you have the moral high ground. Typical German Prinzipienscheisserei.

No, maybe im just rational enough (and don't have so much paranoia) to think that is more likely to become a victim of a rising of a second Nazi party in Germany than to one's own gun.

BTW. I think the possession of guns would increase the (minimal) risk of the rising of such a party not decrease it.

Your arguments are somehow incoherent.
You claim that the right (Nazis) like weapons. Yet you are contra gun control and in addition you are warning that they might have all the power? What are you suggestion? An arm race?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 126):
BTW, not all people in the military are daft

I did not say that. I said "on average".. and no, I didn't do civil service.

[Edited 2012-08-18 17:10:31]
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cmf
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:26 am

Quoting globeex (Reply 104):
If a crime (or even accident) is comitted with a gun you bought that wasn't securely locked away in a gun locker while abstracted, you should be seriously punished too.

As I said above I'm with you in theory but I don't see how it can practically be implemented. What do you do when a kid is accidentally injured or killed? Send a parent, or both, to prison? Give them a big fine? There is no punishment society can give them that is bigger than what happened to their child. How will the injured kid be better off with the parents in prison or a fine reducing the families available resources? What about siblings?

Quoting Mir (Reply 105):
There is no reason that one can't have fun responsibly.

Agree.

Quoting Mir (Reply 105):
And I'd extend that responsibility to selling a gun as well. Currently, in some states you don't have to go through a background check if you buy a gun from a private seller as opposed to a licensed dealer. Fine, but if you're a gun owner and you sell to someone without them going through a background check, and then that gun ends up being used in a crime, you're going to share responsibility.

A big problem is that the pro-gun lobby is forcefully opposing any kind of registration of sales. Look what happened to the suggestion firearms dealers should report sales of two or more semi-automatic rifles sold to one individual in a 5 day period.

To me this is one of many examples of how they refuse to take responsibility.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 106):
"People should not be afraid of their government, government should be afraid of their people." - Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson got it wrong. Fear should not exist on either side. Respect on the other hand. On both sides.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 106):
You can say argue that the Second Amendment is not effective at protecting property rights

I can say that the second amendment was about states being able to field militia against the federal government. At that time guns were pretty useless for anything but hunting and military confrontations. They were not even very good for those.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 106):
(it didn't stop that petty thief FDR from nationalizing the property of all Americans with Executive Order 6102) but that is another discussion.

Why even mention it then?

Quoting globeex (Reply 112):
Having an object that doesn't bring you any advantages apart from a statistically significant higher risk of being killed when robbed or simply by accident and showing off with this is not what I call a mature rational person.

The percentages do not add up. It is amazing.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 113):
Maybe you should read about a years worth of American Rifleman and come to an NRA convention before you condem the NRA and learn what they are really about.

NRA does a lot of good. Sadly the rabid opposition to anything making gun owners responsible for their actions negate all of them.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 115):
That is your opinion. The definition of a toy can be very different to other people.

A gun is never a toy. There is no definition where it is. The closest you can get is to have a toy looking like a gun.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 121):
Which leads to an interesting question: does the US have a democratic possibility to alter the constitution, if 50% 1 of the population wanted it?

There are two ways. The only one used require two thirds of each house and then ratified by 75% of states. The other way is that two thirds of the states call a convention instead of the houses.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
globeex
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:47 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 128):
As I said above I'm with you in theory but I don't see how it can practically be implemented. What do you do when a kid is accidentally injured or killed?

Same as involuntary homicide or other negligent acts. The first question should however be... how did the kid get it's hands on the gun when it should have been savely locked away anyway?

Quoting cmf (Reply 128):
I can say that the second amendment was about states being able to field militia against the federal government. At that time guns were pretty useless for anything but hunting and military confrontations. They were not even very good for those.

   Times have changed and so should laws.

Quoting cmf (Reply 128):
Quoting globeex (Reply 112):
Having an object that doesn't bring you any advantages apart from a statistically significant higher risk of being killed when robbed or simply by accident and showing off with this is not what I call a mature rational person.

The percentages do not add up. It is amazing.

How do you mean? *lost in traslation, maybe*

Quoting cmf (Reply 128):
Quoting mham001 (Reply 115):
That is your opinion. The definition of a toy can be very different to other people.

A gun is never a toy. There is no definition where it is. The closest you can get is to have a toy looking like a gun.

  
Definition toy:   
noun
1. an object, often a small representation of something familiar, as an animal or person, for children or others to play with; plaything.
2.a thing or matter of little or no value or importance; a trifle.
3.something that serves for or as if for diversion, rather than for serious pratical use.
4.a small article of little value but prized as a souvenir or for some other special reason; trinket; knickknack; bauble.
5.something diminutive, especially in comparison with like objects.
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Mir
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:42 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 128):
A big problem is that the pro-gun lobby is forcefully opposing any kind of registration of sales. Look what happened to the suggestion firearms dealers should report sales of two or more semi-automatic rifles sold to one individual in a 5 day period.

Well this is one area where I fully support ramming it down their throats no matter what they say. Forget selling two or more guns in 5 days, there should be a sale record of EVERY gun sold.

This would in no way infringe on the right to bear arms and would help identify where it is that legal guns become illegal guns that are used in crimes, so I don't see what the pro-gun lobby's real objection would be.

-Mir
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globeex
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:51 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 130):
This would in no way infringe on the right to bear arms and would help identify where it is that legal guns become illegal guns that are used in crimes, so I don't see what the pro-gun lobby's real objection would be

Two guns only make half the profit...
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cmf
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:00 am

Quoting globeex (Reply 129):
Quoting cmf (Reply 128):
Quoting globeex (Reply 112):
Having an object that doesn't bring you any advantages apart from a statistically significant higher risk of being killed when robbed or simply by accident and showing off with this is not what I call a mature rational person.

The percentages do not add up. It is amazing.

How do you mean? *lost in traslation, maybe*

I'm saying that when comparing the potential benefits of carrying a gun for self defense with the chances of negatives everything is pointing to that you should not carry a gun. The percentages are higher you will hurt yourself or someone close to you than you will be defend yourself. I agree with you.
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Mir
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:20 am

Quoting globeex (Reply 131):
Two guns only make half the profit...

The ability to make a profit is not affected by filling out and submitting a form that says "I sold a gun of model A, serial number B to person C who lives at address D on date E."

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:38 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 133):

Gun sales records are destroyed after 30 days from the sale date per Federal Law, I believe.
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Mir
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:52 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 134):
Gun sales records are destroyed after 30 days from the sale date per Federal Law, I believe.

Then the law should be changed. These things need to be kept track of. Guns don't start out being illegal, yet somehow many of them get that way. If they were tracked throughout their lives, then it would be a lot easier to figure out where they're passing into the wrong hands and making efforts to stop that.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:57 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 135):

  

Government tries to get into our personal business and track almost everything else we say, do, breathe. Where's pompous asses like Nanny Bloomberg on this idea?
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Mir
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:12 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 136):
Where's pompous asses like Nanny Bloomberg on this idea?

He's been pushing it. NYC has a problem with criminals coming over from other states with guns that they purchased there from private sellers, who never had to do any background check or keep a record of sale. They've sent undercover police to gun shows and they've been able to buy guns without any background check, even when they told the seller that they wouldn't be capable of passing a background check.

I'm normally not a fan of the government getting involved in tracking stuff like this, but people get killed because we can't keep track of firearms in this country and can't keep guns out of the hands of people who aren't qualified to have them. Doing nothing is no longer an option (hasn't been for some time, IMO). This wouldn't affect the ability of anyone to buy or own a gun if they'd be able to already, it wouldn't take guns away from anyone who was legally able to have them, it would help law enforcement actually enforce laws currently on the books. There's really no reason not to do it as far as I'm concerned.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:00 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 134):
Gun sales records are destroyed after 30 days from the sale date per Federal Law, I believe.

        

Quoting Mir (Reply 135):
These things need to be kept track of. Guns don't start out being illegal, yet somehow many of them get that way. If they were tracked throughout their lives, then it would be a lot easier to figure out where they're passing into the wrong hands and making efforts to stop that.

Most surely they do, and each and every owner from the first.

This is so basic, I find it hard to believe that its not already tracked. The only reason why I can think it already isn't may cause it could breach the privacy laws, and therefor encroaches on the constitution ?

If so, change the constitution then .

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 136):
Government tries to get into our personal business and track almost everything else we say, do, breathe.

And this is another of those times when Gov should know where and who has guns !

[Edited 2012-08-18 21:02:29]
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hercppmx
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:25 am

A firearm (gun) in itself does not kill people. It's a man made machine that is incapable of emotion, incapable of decision making. In itself it is a life less tool. Bullets are the same.

Plain and Simply put people are the problem.

I spent 5 years in the military carrying a weapon, I even obtained a "b-mos" as a Combat Marksmanship Trainer. I'm the owner of multiple firearms. I do have a concealed carry permit. Crime will never cease to exist plain and simple, I choose to exercise my right to protect myself at all times. I'm currently attending a University that is a "Carry Campus." When I choose to have my weapons with me I do so following the letter of the law.

The overwhelming majority of gun owners are responsible, and safely handle weapons. There are a few who are either idiots or are sick enough to use them against others in an unwarranted fashion.

For those who criticize the NRA, it's not an organization of malice. The NRA exists to protect the rights granted by the second amendment. The NRA is one of the biggest proponents of gun/weapon safety,and even go as far as providing materials to younger members on safe and responsible use of guns.

Concerning federal Registration of firearms, it's non-sense. It's a waste of time, a waste of government resources, and probably would have very little effect of crime rate. The only people who know what firearms I have are the individual manufactures for warranty purposes.

As some have stated guns should always be locked up, for the most part I agree. My defensive carry is always loaded not locked up in my house. However when travel or my nieces are around it's locked up.

While there are some who agree with me, and some on the other side of the of the argument who don't. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. This reactionary sentiment that the many should pay for the actions of the few is ignorant, in my opinion. Unfortunately there are people who choose to use weapons for sick and twisted uses against innocent people.

I would also contend that almost anything surrounding you in everyday life can be used as a weapon of opportunity, where is the regulation on those?
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Rara
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:32 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 113):
I have seen one of those with Bush on it too.

Ah okay, that makes it alright then. Phew.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 116):
But in Iligan City in the Philippines, where my Missus comes from, I would bloody well have one (possibly a police type shotgun) at home.

Yes, I may have one too if I lived there. I would also own a gun if I lived in South Sudan, and possibly I would even own one if I lived in America. All that is part of the reason I don't live in those places. I value the fact that I don't have to be afraid of some knobhead shooting at me VERY highly, and I support any initiative to keep it like this.

I recognize that in America, the cat is out of the bag, they can't do anything about their gun problem anymore. It's tough luck for the thousands who die from gun-related violence each year, but it's the price they pay for the freedom to own guns.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 124):
Guess who will have the military training and weapons and who will tell the lefties how to jump if push comes to shove?

I don't know... my street in Berlin is dominated by the extreme Left, and they look pretty "wehrhaft" to me. I can't tell you about their armaments, but they seem to do a lot of training and are all seasoned by street battles with the police.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:40 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 140):
I don't know... my street in Berlin is dominated by the extreme Left, and they look pretty "wehrhaft" to me. I can't tell you about their armaments, but they seem to do a lot of training and are all seasoned by street battles with the police.

Remember, I grew up in West Berlin during the 1980s (Kreuzberg Hausbesetzungen) and knew many of these guys personally.
First, they have absolutely no discipline and tactical understanding. They charge the police like Asterix´s Gauls charge the Romans in the comic books.
Secondly, the worse outcome they can possibly face would be a beating with batons, a drenching by the water cannon or a whiff of CS gas. Comparable to a beer hall dust up on a saturday night in Bavaria (and in fact many of them are just the same kind of types, just looking for a good fistfight, to tell the stories afterwards. Listening to them sounds like grandpa´s war stories). The riot police units used in West Berlin were no different. At this time they consisted mainly of young police recruits, who were still living in the police training barracks and were not yet trusted to be out on the street on their own. They were also spoiling for a fight to "show it to the unwashed longhaired scum".

As has been seen during the Spanish civil war, the anarchist militias often showed great individual bravery, but were absolutely unreliable.

I doubt that these leftwing hobby warriors could hold their own or organise a realistic resistance in case of an authoritarian take over.

When I lived in Ireland, often in the pubs I would meet guys who claimed to be connected to the IRA. Often they would sing republican songs when drunk and tell tall tales. These guys were wannabe Walts. I also met a few people where I assume that they were really connected to the IRA. These guys were quiet and hard, and looked and acted like real mobsters. I wouldn´t have wanted to mess with them.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
cmf
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 138):
This is so basic, I find it hard to believe that its not already tracked.

Thank the gun lobby.

Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 139):
A firearm (gun) in itself does not kill people.

People without guns do not shoot people.

Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 139):
Crime will never cease to exist plain and simple

Now with guns, not without. Question is where we have least problems.

Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 139):
The overwhelming majority of gun owners are responsible, and safely handle weapons.

They are. Almost every one of them makes mistakes from time to time too.

Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 139):
For those who criticize the NRA, it's not an organization of malice. The NRA exists to protect the rights granted by the second amendment. The NRA is one of the biggest proponents of gun/weapon safety,and even go as far as providing materials to younger members on safe and responsible use of guns.

NRA is an interest organisation that vehemently oppose everything that will moderate negative effects of guns if there is any kind of restriction on legal owners. They largely refuse to balance their interests with the rest of society

They also do a lot of good work. That part is not in dispute.

Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 139):
This reactionary sentiment that the many should pay for the actions of the few is ignorant, in my opinion.

The sentiment that anything should be allowed because it only affects "a few ten thousands" at the cost of minimal impact to the many is ignorant. (Of course my opinion)
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:40 pm

Quoting globeex (Reply 123):
In the US 25.9% of Liberals own a gun

I would believe that; a couple of leftist friends of mine own guns. Once I was at a bar in San Francisco and I was sitting next to a liberal vegan woman who I assumed I would have nothing in common with. After a lengthy conversation she began telling me about her large handgun collection and how much she loves shooting. Superfly was also there, but he was having a conversation with another woman, who he went home with, (way to go fly!) leaving me chatting with the pro gun vegan.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 126):
BTW, not all people in the military are daft. Even infantry takes a lot of knowledge and intelligence if you want to do the job well, but little is applicable in the civilian world.

My dad was an artilleryman in Vietnam and always said that there are a lot of military jobs that can transfer to the civilian world, but artillary wasn't one of them. That being said he always says that he still uses many skills he learned in the army, such as the organizational skills and staying cool under pressure. Dad always said that once you have faced RPG, artillary and machine gun fire (aimed at you) every other kind of problem really isn't anything to worry about.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 134):
Gun sales records are destroyed after 30 days from the sale date per Federal Law, I believe.

If that is true so are a lot of other records. A few years ago we had to be new background checks at work and we had to go to a special state office to get them done. When I was at the state office I asked why we had to get fingerprinted again since we had it all done a few years before and they should have them all on file. The woman told me that all the records are destroyed after the background checks.

Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 139):
A firearm (gun) in itself does not kill people. It's a man made machine that is incapable of emotion, incapable of decision making. In itself it is a life less tool. Bullets are the same.

I am friends with a lot of anti gun liberals and when I have a party at my house they won't even go in the room where I have my guns, even though they are behind locked doors. I remember one time one of my coworkers, who I have become good friends with walked in there and asked what was in the safes. When I told her they were full of guns she freaked out and ran out of the room. She was actually afraid of wood and steel locked behind a steel door. That was one of the most irrational things I ever witnessed.

Quoting Rara (Reply 140):
Ah okay, that makes it alright then. Phew.

It does... It is only a target, it means nothing. I have also seen them with Osama Bin Liden and Saddam Hussien on them and I have met too many people who but Bush and Obama in the same camp as those two.

Some friends and I shot up a bunch Obama signs on my buddy's shooting range and back in 2000 we burned a lot of Gore signs in a campfire.
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PPVRA
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:31 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 142):

Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 139):
A firearm (gun) in itself does not kill people.

People without guns do not shoot people.

Reply #44 applies to you, too.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 140):
I value the fact that I don't have to be afraid of some knobhead shooting at me VERY highly

I live in the US, in the South for that matter, and I do not live in fear of somebody shooting me at all. . . and no, I don't do anything special.

You should move to the US and live here for a while before saying that again.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
mham001
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting globeex (Reply 123):
1) In the US 25.9% of Liberals own a gun, while 40.0% of conservatives own a gun.

2) 68% of protestant (that tend to be more fundamentalist than its catholic counter part) own handguns. Only 6%of the hand guns are owned by catholics. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1559-1816.1992.tb01533.x/abstract)
Sorry, you need a university subscription to open the paper.

So, I'll ask again, what source do you have that "right wing extremists" and "religious fanatics" buy "most" guns? Does being Protestant equate to religious fanaticism in Germany? Does being conservative automatically make one extremist?

Fortunately, nobody in this country really cares what a German thinks about our laws.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting globeex (Reply 127):
BTW. I think the possession of guns would increase the (minimal) risk of the rising of such a party not decrease it.

Highly disagree. The first thing dictators like to do is to disarm the populace. They are gonna have a tough time doing that in the USA!

Quoting globeex (Reply 127):
Your arguments are somehow incoherent.
You claim that the right (Nazis) like weapons. Yet you are contra gun control and in addition you are warning that they might have all the power? What are you suggestion? An arm race?

The Nazis like weapons, but they also like gun control. The Nazis only like weapons that they control. This is extremely unlike protecting the freedom to own weapons.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
SA7700
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RE: Another US Shooting, Whats Up In The US?

Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:28 pm

This thread has run its course and will be locked for further contributions. Please note that any posts added after the thread lock, will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.

Thanks for your understanding and co-operation.

Regards

SA7700
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Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos