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Kiwirob
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:03 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 40):
And then there's Texas, that went from being Mexico to being its own country to being part of the US.

Are you forgetting Hawaii which you stole  
 
BMI727
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:07 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 50):
Are you forgetting Hawaii which you stole

No I didn't:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 40):
at no point during that progression were they really able to stand on their own (Hawaii would probably be an exception)

Anyway, the point is that when a lot of the states became states they were largely frontier, literally the wild west. And some of the people moved from the East out to the territories, at which point the Americans decided they wanted to have their new homes join America. It wasn't the indian tribes clamoring to join the union.

[Edited 2012-10-13 00:09:33]
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aloges
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:20 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 47):
So remind me again, what did the EU or the UN have to do with the fall of the military junta in Greece?

Since you insist that you know what I meant, I'll skip the explanation and get straight to the point: you don't. Have a nice weekend!
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MD-90
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:16 am

The Nobel Peace Prize continues to be an absolute farce.
 
Rara
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:48 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 40):
Also, you have to remember that a lot of America never dealt with losing sovereignty, per se. The original thirteen colonies all had their own identities and liked being independent for a while before forming the USA. And then there's Texas, that went from being Mexico to being its own country to being part of the US.

For the most part, all of the states were not really settled or developed to a high degree when they joined the US. Places went from being a US territory to being a state but at no point during that progression were they really able to stand on their own (Hawaii would probably be an exception) and that isn't the case with European countries.

The thing with "losing sovereignty" is, it sounds terrible, but it really isn't. In some aspects, no country is really sovereign - e.g. if you try to develop an atomic bomb, other countries will likely start to mess with you, and at least will try to influence the process. In other aspects, countries (even EU countries) will always be sovereign, e.g. in choosing their own government.

Part of establishing a common market is to give up sovereignty (for instance the control over tariffs and quotas), yet if you follow classical economics, it's almost always a good idea to do so.

It seems to me that when discussing EU matters, people tend to give this sovereignty thing a bit too much attention. There are enough real challenges that developed Western countries face nowadays to make the debate about more or less authority to Brussels rather irrelevant.
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trident3
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:20 pm

a couple of things to bear in mind:
As citizens of the EU we all get to go to Oslo to collect the prize so they had better get plenty of beer in.
As citizens of the EU we can now all add Winner of the 2012 Nobel Peace Prize to our CVs.
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flyingturtle
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:45 pm

Quoting trident3 (Reply 55):


  

Why can't I join in?   
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BMI727
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 54):
In some aspects, no country is really sovereign - e.g. if you try to develop an atomic bomb, other countries will likely start to mess with you, and at least will try to influence the process.

Sovereignty really only ever goes as far as one is able to defend it.

Quoting Rara (Reply 54):
Part of establishing a common market is to give up sovereignty (for instance the control over tariffs and quotas), yet if you follow classical economics, it's almost always a good idea to do so.

I'm all in favor of open trade, I don't need to be sold on the wisdom of a common market. But there is a difference between a country saying "we're going to allow open trade with no tariffs or quotas" versus saying "we're going to cede control over our trade policies to the EU."
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NoUFO
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting trident3 (Reply 55):

I tried that when I learned that amnesty internation had won the Nobel Peace Prize.  
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 57):
But there is a difference between a country saying "we're going to allow open trade with no tariffs or quotas" versus saying "we're going to cede control over our trade policies to the EU."

I firmly believe you can't have a free common market without common rules on child labor, basic environmental standards and other things. Among those "other things" are those ten marketing standards for fruits and vegetables because the agricultural industry wants those common rules: "Class 1" apples or carrots should roughly have the same quality, no matter if they come from The Netherlands or Spain. The industry - rightfully - considered the previous situation with several national regulations chaotic. The European Commission turned thousands of pages into exactly 163. For some reason the public considered this action "bureaucratic".

Besides, the European Union has always been more than an open trade community. It has always been about human rights, free press and the abolition of the death penalty. Coexistence is more than trade.
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PanHAM
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:25 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 57):
I'm all in favor of open trade, I don't need to be sold on the wisdom of a common market. But there is a difference between a country saying "we're going to allow open trade with no tariffs or quotas" versus saying "we're going to cede control over our trade policies to the EU."

slight correction, the common market was the first step. That was when border controls between EU members still existed and goods had to be custoims cleared. There was no duty but VAT was raised. The EU now enjoys a single market. To stay with thee subject of this forum, thatÄs when European carriers started to operate flights from any European country to any European country.

Of course do rules and regulations apply. Open trade and tariffs is another subject, thzat is dealing with third countries.,

There are no tariffs within the EU, only VAT is administered, trade between various EU countries mean that the vendor of goodsw to - say the UK - has to know the VAT number of the buyer, the sales is zero VAT and the intrastat statement must be made to the applicable authority.

No sovereignty is given up here, the single states still have full sovereignty over their VAT level.
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wingman
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:34 am

Europeans actually awarded themselves the Nobel Peace Prize? Just when I thought us Yanks had secured the lifetime achievement award for hypocrisy along comes Europe to snatch away the gold medal. Hey! This is the first century in 3000 years that we haven't slaughtered millions of people! Let's give ourselves a big prize. Sure the new century is only 12 years old but damn if we aren't some of the most peaceful mofos around. What a complete and utter joke.
 
cmf
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:59 am

Quoting wingman (Reply 60):
Europeans actually awarded themselves the Nobel Peace Prize? Just when I thought us Yanks had secured the lifetime achievement award for hypocrisy along comes Europe to snatch away the gold medal. Hey! This is the first century in 3000 years that we haven't slaughtered millions of people! Let's give ourselves a big prize. Sure the new century is only 12 years old but damn if we aren't some of the most peaceful mofos around. What a complete and utter joke.

WOW. Norway is also a member of the world. Guess they should not give anyone in the world the price because that sure is like giving it to themselves. Maybe you can recommend them someone from a different universe.

But with the tiniest bit of fact checking you would have found that the price was given to E.U. Norways E.U. status? Not a member.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
PanHAM
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:00 am

Norway is part of Europe but not part of the European union, And we are not talking about 12 years, but 67 years
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ozglobal
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:08 am

Quoting FaDDyPainTER (Reply 41):
Yes, we all know anti-EU rhetoric is a purely British phenomena. I absolutely guarantee you could would never hear of an iota of dissent from any other European nation.  

It certainly isn't only from Britain that we hear anti-EU rhetoric. The nature, scale and vitriol is however pretty much unique, and very often, as in the case I responded to, based on fallacies. The Murdoch press are not without a significant role in the matter.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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zkojq
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:46 am

I think the fact that Europeans generally like each other is often under valued, particularly considering the reasonably vast cultural differences there are within the Eurozone. The general decline of hardcore nationalism in EU has to be respected also, as does the convenience brought by Schengen (though I guess it has caused its own set of problems).

Then again there are lots of individuals who also deserve it, possibly more.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 4):
I've felt that way every since they awarded it to Yasser Arafat.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 11):
Arafat, Gore, Obama and now this...

They awarded it to Mr Begin 30 years ago.  

Quoting aloges (Reply 20):
Some of the posts in this thread are ridiculous. No person or organisation in this world has ever been perfect, but some have done much more good and much less harm than others. It's sad and almost infuriating to see how only imperfections and shortcomings make it into the news and thus get to form the public opinion.
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 63):
The Murdoch press are not without a significant role in the matter.

  

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22):
Go ask the homeless what they think.

If you look at global per-capita homelessness rates, I'm sure you will find that the lowest rates are Eurozone member-states.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 39):
It'd be a lot cheaper to pack them off to villas on some sunny coastline somewhere, no?

Particularly since the property crash in Spain and Portugal.

Quoting trident3 (Reply 55):
As citizens of the EU we can now all add Winner of the 2012 Nobel Peace Prize to our CVs.

  

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 27):
While at the same time the EU are some of the biggest weapons/arms manufacturers and sellers on the planet

One of Europe's greatest strengths is the international cooperation of projects of significance particularly in the areas of transport and defense. Eurofighter, Transall, Panavia, Airbus, ATR, Eurostar, Eurocontol and the way that motorway and rail-systems are integrated between nations come to mind.

Quoting wingman (Reply 60):
Europeans actually awarded themselves the Nobel Peace Prize?
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=Is+Norway+a+European+Union+member%3F   
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Mortyman
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:48 am

Quoting wingman (Reply 60):
Europeans actually awarded themselves the Nobel Peace Prize? Just when I thought us Yanks had secured the lifetime achievement award for hypocrisy along comes Europe to snatch away the gold medal. Hey! This is the first century in 3000 years that we haven't slaughtered millions of people! Let's give ourselves a big prize. Sure the new century is only 12 years old but damn if we aren't some of the most peaceful mofos around. What a complete and utter joke.

Norway is not a member of the EU.


70 % of Norwegians are currently against joining. 20 % for and 10 % undecided. The number who are against joining has been around 65 % for several years now
 
wingman
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:16 pm

Guys, I know Norway isn't part of the EU. But they are part of Europe the last time I checked and the the first initial of E.U. is Europe. I can post a link if you don't believe it. It's embarrassing. You should be embarrassed. And it's 2012, that's twelve years into the new century. See the number "12". Pretty simple stuff. I'm as liberal as they come, but I call out crap like this when I see it and this is pure crap. You're telling me the best these twits could come up with was the E.U.???

Surely to Christ there must be at least a hundred people worldwide that have not only dedicated their lives to the ideals espoused in this prize, but even worked extra hard at it in the past year. It's a cop out and it's pathetic.
 
cmf
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 66):
Guys, I know Norway isn't part of the EU. But they are part of Europe the last time I checked and the the first initial of E.U. is Europe.

Norway is also members of the various UN organisations that have received the price, IPCC, IAEA, ILO and participate greatly in the Red Cross. Should all of those organisations and any potential Norwegian be excluded just because they have a connection with Norway?

Quoting wingman (Reply 66):
And it's 2012, that's twelve years into the new century. See the number "12". Pretty simple stuff.

If you read the announcement, http://nobelpeaceprize.org/en_GB/lau...ates/laureates-2012/announce-2012/ , you will find this is a rather silly argument.

Quoting wingman (Reply 66):
Surely to Christ there must be at least a hundred people worldwide that have not only dedicated their lives to the ideals espoused in this prize, but even worked extra hard at it in the past year. It's a cop out and it's pathetic.

Read the announcement.
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Semaex
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:31 pm

I'm sorry, this whole discussion is too ridiculous.

Let me start from here:

Yes the United States of America, Canada and Great Britain were the major nations when it came to enforcing peace on the European continent in 1945. I say "enforcing peace", because that is what they did. It was not political, not economical and by all means not social peace they brought. Yet they brought peace, and as a European who is living in the third generation of peace I am very thankful to those nations for their efforts.

After 1945 it was mainly the superpowers of the NATO and the Warsaw Pact which maintained an uneasy truce for decades. This was not peace in the deepest meaning we know it. It was, as it is commonly known, a "Cold War". Still, from our point of view we can be thankful to those politicians, institutions and individuals who decided not to pull the trigger.

Then came the strive to change something fundamentally. France and Germany knew that even the thought of war had to be supressed, and so they formed an alliance which controlled itself in such a way that war material could not be produced in unreasonable quantities, by looking at the mining of coal. BeNeLux and Italy joined because of the benefits of a single market.
Now, the fundamental reason for becoming a member of the (later known as) European Union were at first economical strive, and it seems a nation like Great Britain still supports this point of view as a primal factor. Economic dependencies have always maintained stable relationships which most of the time lead to simple peace.
So this European idea we're talking about came to existence by economic will for more wealth, but in the end turned out to be something quite different.

The fact that Europe is in struggle right now is sad, but it's the way time works. Sometimes it looks good, sometimes bad. To reduce the great picture of 60 years of European unity to 6 years of (worldwide) economic struggle is simply naive. Short-sightedness is one of the most pronounced yet most destructive human features.

I have lived in Czech Republic for altogether more than five years, both pre-2004, when it wasn't part of the European Union yet, and post-2004 until just two years ago. I have seen where European money goes and I have witnessed a great deal of sacrifice of the German population (to take a nearby example) in order to aid a nation which is not as well off as we are.
To think that things will always stay as we know them, or as they used to be, is simply a childish point of view. I hear my grandparents scream out the same things as some people on this forum are saying. "Back in the days this" and "oh it used to be so much better because that". It's foolish.
I like to give the example of the Marshall Plan at this point. If the American people had opposed to this plan to aid German infrastructure after WWII, then Germany would be nowhere near a highly industrialized nation as it is today. And who benefits of the state we're in now? Of course Germans, but inasmuch the American people and a whole lot of other nations.

We must never confuse wealth with money. Money can be given away and then it's gone, but wealth is something dynamic that only grows when other players take part in the game.
The European Union is not distributing money, and if somebody thinks that way then they haven't really understood the European idea. The EU is redirecting and redistributing wealth, so that at some point in time all nations can be up on the same level, striving for more wealth and peace.
If the Germans, Brits, French or other citizens within the EU think that all their money is wasted, and if the Irish, Greeks, Spaniards and Portuguese among us believe that the EU is their certain doom, then something somewhere went wrong, because those exact nations, whether they are (relatively speaking) wealthy or not, have forged their own future simply by their frame of mind.

I'm straying off topic, so let me convey make the point of discussion simple.
The European Union has done far more in the past 60 years than what we see in this glimpse of time we are calling 'present'. They have not established peace, nor "enforced" it - to come back to the beginning - , they are a keeper of peace and an aid to maintain wealth, redistribute it (and please do not pick on the word for its shady historical background) and ever strive for increasing prosperity. This in itself is noteworthy, and if externtal circumstances and the fluctuations in time which lead to a worldwide economic turndown every decade or so paint a blacker picture than it is, this mustn't be taken as an underlying failure of the European Union as a whole.

We have had peace for a longer time than ever before in the history of Europe. And since this Nobel Peace Price is not given to the EU for its achievements in Literature, Science and at this point definitely not in Economy, there shouldn't be anything to moan about.

I congratulate the European Union and all its Citizens to the Nobel Peace Price.
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Fabo
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:58 pm

Semaex, respected. I dont think I can add more to that.
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pu
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:49 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 60):

...Hey! This is the first century in 3000 years that we haven't slaughtered millions of people! Let's give ourselves a big prize.

Ok we are talking about dead people, but yes that is funny. Hooray! Wer'e not killing each other on a major scale this year!

Its very hard for established democracies to go to war with one another, and I think Europe's rather violent and convulsive arrival to a continent of (mostly) democratic nations explains more about the peace than the EU.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 64):
I think the fact that Europeans generally like each other is often under valued

All the Europeans I know have an ensemble of EU brothers they dislike, and many have one or two countries they flat out hate.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 68):
The European Union is not distributing money

When the ECB buys bonds of a member state, it is doing precisely that!

(not that I have any problem with monetising debt: the Americans do it with no inflationary effect)

Pu
 
Superfly
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:41 am

The Nobel Peace Prize is becoming more like the Rhino Awards.
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Rara
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:16 am

Quoting pu (Reply 70):
Its very hard for established democracies to go to war with one another, and I think Europe's rather violent and convulsive arrival to a continent of (mostly) democratic nations explains more about the peace than the EU.

My thinking exactly. But that's how the genius of Robert Schuman and Jean Monnet pans out today. Instead of focusing on political gestures and grand institutions, they tried to closely integrate the European markets, to make the option of going to war as costly and inconvenient as possible. So far that has worked really well. And arguably, one of the reasons why European countries still stick together in today's debt crisis is that the other option, severing the ties, is even more expensive.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:23 am

I think the reason behind this is to get EU membership back on the political table in Norway, both Jagland the Nobel Committee President and Stoltenberg the Prime Minister are both in favor of EU membership.
 
Mortyman
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 73):
I think the reason behind this is to get EU membership back on the political table in Norway, both Jagland the Nobel Committee President and Stoltenberg the Prime Minister are both in favor of EU membership.

Yeah well, polls have shown for several years now that Norwegians are agaisnt joining the EU. Around 65 % for several years now. CVurrently the number is 70 % against, 20 % for and 10 % undecided. So I think our politicians are gonna have a hard time convincing Norwegians to join. I don't see it happening anytime soon.
 
PanHAM
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:43 pm

The Norwegians simply would be stupid to join the EU. They would have to send most of their Trust Fund monies to Brussels.

You do the right thing, even though it would relief us Germans to some extend from contributing to the EU.

.
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lewis
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 52):

Since you insist that you know what I meant, I'll skip the explanation and get straight to the point: you don't. Have a nice weekend!

Your choice to walk away from it, not mine. I showed you the whole flow of the discussion where you brought up the junta, you could either support what you said or support what you meant to say, but you did none of the above. You also don't have a point and thanks, my weekend was great!  
 
aloges
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:33 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 76):
You also don't have a point

I chose to skip the explanation because you had already formed your opinion and decided to stick with it. So what could I have discussed with you?

In short: I do not think that the EU brought down the Greek military dictatorship. I don't have a problem with you pointing it out either, but I do think that a discussion is pointless when a version of "Liar, liar, pants on fire!" is supposed to start it.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Avianca
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:04 pm

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 3):
Ridiculous. The European Union has brought Greece to it's knees, and it's dragging Spain, Portugal and Italy down too. Why can't we have a Europe where we are all friends, neighbours in trade, but not a sovereign state?

I think this is a joke or? blame the actual or before goverments of these countries...

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 7):
As someone said before, look at Greece and Spain. They were much better off before they joined the E.U. than after. Aso I remember England before they came up with V.A.T. We all used to go do our shopping in London to buy high quality products (mostly clothing) at much cheaper prices than we could get in Continental Europe. That time has long ended. I am not convinced that the U.K. has gained from the E.U.

yes and the EU would be much better without them!

For me the person who is since many many years more than overdue is Bundeskanzler ad. Dr. Helmut Kohl, a joke that president Obama received the price but not Dr. Helmut Kohl. He is the father of the German reunification.
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Danny
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 3):
Ridiculous. The European Union has brought Greece to it's knees,

It's a peace award not the one in economics. Check out the history of Europe and you'll find out peace has been a rarity for centuries before EU.
 
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Aesma
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 7):
As someone said before, look at Greece and Spain. They were much better off before they joined the E.U. than after.

Greece and Spain were poor dictatorships before joining the EU. Nobody from these countries want to go back to that ! And we don't want it either, that's why we accepted them in the union and gave them billions upon billions. That they made some mistakes is unfortunate but not the EU's fault, in fact EU bureaucrats are all for replacing national budgets with a eurozone-wide one, which would not allow for such mistakes.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 11):
What a joke this is...Does anyone pay attention to this peace prize anymore? Would that not be NATO that did much of this? I guess the US and Canada had nothing to do with rebuilding after WWII or helping bring down communism and bringing stability to the Eastern Countries. Arafat, Gore, Obama and now this...
Quoting windy95 (Reply 19):
Not really. Without the heavy lifting form NATO which was dominated by the US and the UK for many years there would of been no EU. The EU itself did not keet the peace. The EU had very little to do with it over the time that the prize is given for. The American taxpayer along with the UK and Canada picked up most of the resulting cost.

NATO is a military alliance. It's not about peace, it's about war. US money was the Marshall plan. In the end what made peace possible is first and foremost the European people, and the EU is representative of us, at least until some countries defect. But I guess from Israel knowing what is war and what is peace can be troublesome.

I would even argue that NATO has in fact hindered the EU, since there was an European Defense that was part of the plan and never happened, in part because De Gaulle believed the goal was for the USA to control it.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
PanHAM
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RE: European Uninon Wins 2012 Nobel Peace Prize

Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:42 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 80):
NATO is a military alliance. It's not about peace, it's about war.

you missed a little word in that sentence and there are two too many. Correct is::

NATO is a military alliance . It is about peace and to prevent war.

NATO has been quite successful in this since since it's existance.
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