Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
GDB
Posts: 13753
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 88):
That was my first thought when I heard about this sickening tragedy several hours ago. Didn't save those kids in Scotland any more than it did today in Newtown.

Firstly, this is so awful, to a degree that after so many similar incidents this one still has the power to shock.

To Dunblane in 1996, the killer, Thomas Hamilton used a legally brought Browning semi auto pistol.
Semi auto pistols like that are no longer legal. The public demand for this to be so was overwhelming.

9 years before, Micheal Ryan used a legally brought semi auto AK-47, an M1 Carbine and pistols in Hungerford. Those class of weapons were banned, again by overwhelming public demand.

Has it ended gun crime? No but the levels are low, many crime related guns are in fact converted replica and air weapons.
Getting hold of a .223 rifle - presumably a semi auto version of a military rifle - is very hard to get hold of here.
Way beyond the ability of most wannabe gang balloon-heads.
Want to compare gun deaths adjusted for the respective populations for the US and UK?
There is a reason why most British police are unarmed and wish to stay that way.

The reason why our political leaders could not, had they wished so, resist the public calls for restrictions is perhaps because there is no real NRA over here. No well funded, unelected lobbyists.

But there was a limit. In 2010 in another rural location in England, there was a massacre carried out by a man with a shotgun and .22 weapon. It's hard to see how these could, or should, be banned in such locations, where most of them are.
There was no great public demand either.

Question? Are those so dead set against restrictions on guns also Libertarian enough to feel the same about drugs?
Why not, same logic, 'I can handle them, it's just those irresponsible others who spoil it for the rest'.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 110):
I though the "blame the victim" mentality was an evil right-wing idea.

The victim here is the person (or people) who got shot, not the guy who can't keep his guns in the right place.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 110):
What are the odds they'd register the guns in the first place?

If they bought it legally, they'd have to have it registered to their name.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 110):
Also, I find it funny that you think police departments have the resources to keep track of all of this stuff.

Thanks to database software, it's never been easier for them to keep track of all that stuff.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 110):
I find it hard to believe any such laws would stand in front of a Supreme Court that has now twice affirmed the individual right to own a firearm.

What part of anything I suggested infringes on the right to own a firearm? All I'm looking to do is keep track of who guns are sold to and make sure that they don't get passed on to people who shouldn't be having them. If people don't do that, they can own as many guns as they want.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4722
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:31 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 111):

So you are saying a judge and jury would not convict someone whose gun was used in a crime after that person reported dozens or hundreds of stolen guns.

Based on that alone? Not a chance.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 111):

It's funny you said that, since you were the one who brought in the idea of police records for guns reported stolen.

Really?

Quoting Mir (Reply 100):
neither sale having been validated as legal
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 102):

"Yes, officer, that was a gun I owned. If you check, I reported it stolen 3 months ago."

Last I checked, 100 comes before 102...

Quoting Mir (Reply 113):

The victim here is the person (or people) who got shot, not the guy who can't keep his guns in the right place.

So theft is now a victimless crime? Excellent.

Quoting Mir (Reply 113):

Thanks to database software, it's never been easier for them to keep track of all that stuff.

You still need people to go through that stuff and track down and prosecute the offenders.

Quoting Mir (Reply 113):
What part of anything I suggested infringes on the right to own a firearm?

This:

Quoting Mir (Reply 105):
If you can't make sure that your guns aren't stolen, then you shouldn't be owning a gun.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
GIANCAVIA
Posts: 906
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:45 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:32 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 104):
Actually, it appears the press has the right person. His brother was found dead in NJ.

Negative they all first reported "Ryan Lanza" and used the wrong twitter and facebook account which meant some other kid with the same name started getting abuse. Now they are all rolling with Adam Lanza as the killer. Combine that to poking microphones into the faces of little children who just escaped a massacre and asking them to describe it .. They make me want to vomit.
 
CplKlinger
Posts: 326
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:05 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 113):
If they bought it legally, they'd have to have it registered to their name.

Where is this mystical and mythical "gun registry" of which you speak? I own guns that aren't registered anywhere. I did the 4473 at the store, passed the background check and walked out with gun in hand, no registration of said gun necessary.
 
slider
Posts: 7603
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:34 pm

Prayers for the fallen, all the families and for the precious children all permanently impacted by this evil, evil act.

This is just such a dark thing I'm stunned.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10608
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 9):
...why?

To follow this perfect comment....
There is no reason possible, it is innumerably sad and disgusting.

My heart goes out and breaks (seriously, it is broken) for all those affected by this horrible act.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 100):
Simple. If you buy a gun legally, it's your responsibility until you sell it legally (which I would define as a transfer of registration to either a licensed dealer or another individual who has passed the required background check). So if you decide to sell it to Shady Character A on the corner, who then sells it to Shady Character B, neither sale having been validated as legal, it's your ass too if Shady Character B uses it in a crime (in other words, you're going to jail as an accomplice to that crime). That would remove much of the incentive to sell to any Shady Characters at all.

I thought about that, but then what if the seller just says it was lost, or stolen by a mystery perp?

EDIT- I am late to the party with that one....

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 91):
Yes it can. So can meth. Both are Schedule II drugs in the US.

Which is utterly irrelevant. Cocaine's sale in tiny quantities as an anaesthetic is completely unconnected to the enormous black market for its recreational use, hence it is not a grey market.

[Edited 2012-12-14 13:48:17]
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10608
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:46 pm

I will add that the shooter is not worthy to be counted among the dead and should never be included in such.

Tug
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 114):
So theft is now a victimless crime? Excellent.

The crime is not keeping your firearms secure. The theft itself is a whole other matter, and no that's not a victimless crime. I feel bad for someone who has had their property stolen, of course. But we deny people access to firearms for a whole load of reasons, some of which imply a lack of responsibility, and some of those are through no fault of the individual at question. Not being able to take care of your guns would just be another example.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 114):
Quoting Mir (Reply 113):
What part of anything I suggested infringes on the right to own a firearm?

This:

Quoting Mir (Reply 105):
If you can't make sure that your guns aren't stolen, then you shouldn't be owning a gun.

Rights come with responsibilities. That doesn't mean the responsibility infringes on the right, particularly when a dereliction of the responsibility puts the lives of others at risk.

But since you're opposed to my suggestion, why not make one of your own? We've got a national problem with guns that are bought legally with the intent of being sold later illegally to people who will use them in crimes - that much is unquestionable. So what would you do about it?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
vanguard737
Posts: 561
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2001 7:02 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting Wolbo (Reply 37):
Let's not act surprised here, it's a logical and inevitable consequence of America's obsession with guns. This is simply the prize to pay for that obession. If society finds that prize too high then change the policy. If society doesn't want to change the policy, fine but then don't complain about the prize to pay. That's just fake indignation.

Perhaps "Long live the Second Amendment" would be a suitable inscription on the children's tombstones.

Your words are nothing short of simplistic, repetitive, and your last statement especially, entirely crass and cruel just hours after the murder of these children.

Do you honestly believe this person killed these children because he loved guns? Guns were the MEDIUM of his madness, not the MOTIVATION.

Gun control does nothing except take guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens. Criminals have no regard for gun laws and whether or not they are breaking the law! Norway has some of the tightest gun restrictions in the world, and it happened there, too. It has happened in Germany. It has happened in The Netherlands.

If he didn't have a gun, he could have used a knife. If he didn't have a knife, he could have made a bomb. If he couldn't make a bomb, he could have driven his car through the wall, etc.

YOU CAN NOT ELIMINATE EVIL WITH LEGISLATION.

Shame on you.
319 320 321 359 717 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 744 748 752 753 763 764 772 773 788 789 781 DC9 DC10 MD80 B1900 S340 E120 E145 E170 E175 CRJ CR7
 
Geezer
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:37 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:00 pm

At 5:00 PM (EST) the count is: 20 children, 6 adults (including the shooter)


Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8059
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 23):
If I have to choose between small children dying like this...and your gun rights...

...gun rights? Up in smoke! - in a heartbeat.

Which other rights are you willing to give up in a heartbeat in the interest of protecting the children?

You know, I think you're correct; it's time to repeal The Second Amendment. It's time is passed and we would all be much safer.

In fact, I suggest, no demand, that we go a step further and repeal the Fourth Amendment. That's the amendment that really causes the most death and pain in our society. Can you imagine the utopia we could live in? If only The State were allowed to enter any home or business; violate any person's privacy and seize whatever it deemed dangerous? Guns, drugs, contraband...all gone.

We would, finally, be safe.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" ~Benjamin Franklin

Quoting Mir (Reply 113):
If they bought it legally, they'd have to have it registered to their name.

If they bought the firearm legally, there would be a record of a sale (really, a transfer). That's all. Big difference from a registry.

Quoting Mir (Reply 105):
Too bad. Part of being a responsible gun owner is making sure that your guns stay where they're supposed to stay

Agreed.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24313
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 114):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 111):
So you are saying a judge and jury would not convict someone whose gun was used in a crime after that person reported dozens or hundreds of stolen guns.

Based on that alone? Not a chance.

Of course not on that alone, but very far from your suggestion of "Law rendered invalid.".

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 114):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 111):
It's funny you said that, since you were the one who brought in the idea of police records for guns reported stolen.

Really?

Quoting Mir (Reply 100):
neither sale having been validated as legal
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 102):

"Yes, officer, that was a gun I owned. If you check, I reported it stolen 3 months ago."

Last I checked, 100 comes before 102...

He introduced the idea of records being kept for legal gun transfers, you introduced the idea of using records of using "police records for guns reported stolen" which is exactly what I said.

In any case, as above:

Quoting Mir (Reply 113):
Thanks to database software, it's never been easier for them to keep track of all that stuff.

Adding a requirement to register legal transfers of gun ownership is not denying anyone the right to own a firearm.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Newark727
Posts: 2007
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting vanguard737 (Reply 122):

Gun control does nothing except take guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens. Criminals have no regard for gun laws and whether or not they are breaking the law! Norway has some of the tightest gun restrictions in the world, and it happened there, too. It has happened in Germany. It has happened in The Netherlands.

If he didn't have a gun, he could have used a knife. If he didn't have a knife, he could have made a bomb. If he couldn't make a bomb, he could have driven his car through the wall, etc.

Just because it happened there, doesn't mean that it happens on the scale and frequency that it does in the United States. And just because he had intent to kill didn't mean he'd end up with a firearm with which to do so, or that he'd be able to kill as many people with a knife or a bomb as he did with a gun. And if we don't talk about gun violence now, when is an acceptable time for you?
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 116):
Where is this mystical and mythical "gun registry" of which you speak? I own guns that aren't registered anywhere. I did the 4473 at the store, passed the background check and walked out with gun in hand, no registration of said gun necessary.

You'd have to set one up. How much current information you could get into it is an issue that would have to be worked out - you're not going to get everything, but that still doesn't mean it's not a good idea, as the amount of information you'll have will only grow with time as more guns are purchased.

Mandatory registration is one of the aspects of gun control that is overwhelmingly favored by the country (along with background checks and no guns for those who are mental ill or are felons), so it's very possible politically (as opposed to limiting the number of guns per individual or banning specific types of guns or high-capacity clips, which are contentious).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Newark727
Posts: 2007
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:06 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 124):

Which other rights are you willing to give up in a heartbeat in the interest of protecting the children?

You know, I think you're correct; it's time to repeal The Second Amendment. It's time is passed and we would all be much safer.

In fact, I suggest, no demand, that we go a step further and repeal the Fourth Amendment. That's the amendment that really causes the most death and pain in our society. Can you imagine the utopia we could live in? If only The State were allowed to enter any home or business; violate any person's privacy and seize whatever it deemed dangerous? Guns, drugs, contraband...all gone.

We would, finally, be safe.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" ~Benjamin Franklin

There are rights, and there are human lives. There comes a time when the interests of utter devotion to the Second Amendment have to be sublimated to the reality of what the Second Amendment allows people to do- just like the rest of the Bill of Rights. The remainder of your argument is a based on fallacious slippery slope reasoning- the Second and Fourth Amendments are very different in terms of who they apply to, and why/how they are applied in law.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:07 pm

I don't know why everybody claims that firearms are hard to get after bans.

Most weapons designs are very sinple so that you can used unskilled labor to gain a high rate of production in a time if war. You got guys up on the khyber pass who are making Ak47's for the highest bidder using hand tools! History us replete with people making firearms in secret under very austere conditions

If they can do it what is to stop an person with the basic machining tools in the basement of a muffler shop from making weapons.....Nada.....nothing.

Bans didn't stop weapon production, prohibition didn't stop booze and rge drug war hasn't stop millions of little meth plants from popping up. All bans do is increase the price which increases the motive for either clandestine manufacture or importation
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2007
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:09 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 129):
All bans do is increase the price which increases the motive for either clandestine manufacture or importation

IMO this is perfectly fine. Higher price means fewer people will have restricted guns, which is precisely the objective when you ban something.
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:09 pm

Quoting vanguard737 (Reply 122):
Your words are nothing short of simplistic
Quoting vanguard737 (Reply 122):
YOU CAN NOT ELIMINATE EVIL WITH LEGISLATION.

And they say Americans don't understand irony.

Anyway, you say:

Quoting vanguard737 (Reply 122):
If he didn't have a gun, he could have used a knife.

Is it easier to kill with a gun or a knife? Would the death toll have been as high with a knife? Yes, it would still be a tragedy, but would ten deaths be a better outcome than 20? That scenario may not "eliminate evil" but it may save ten innocent lives.

The only possible justification for not wanting tighter regulations on gun ownership is that it infringes on personal freedom, and if you believe that, as many do, then those who are killed as a result of lax laws must be regarded as collateral damage. It's not a view I sympathize with, but at least it makes sense- not like the "more guns=fewer deaths" drivel that some seem to believe.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 124):
You know, I think you're correct; it's time to repeal The Second Amendment. It's time is passed and we would all be much safer.

Thus bringing the US in line with practically every other civilized nation.

Quote:
In fact, I suggest, no demand, that we go a step further and repeal the Fourth Amendment.

Thus taking the US out of line with practically every other civilized nation.

How come other countries manage to function without the idea that "if we remove one right or law, we have to remove all other rights and laws" argument?
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
User avatar
2707200X
Posts: 6579
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:31 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:21 pm

Words cannot convey this tragedy, how parents of young ones feel, how the parents of the children at the school feel, how the kids at the school feels and especially how the parents of the now gone children and children of the deceased staff members feel, this is a national tragedy and a day of sadness for every American. Hug your kids extra tight and tell them how much you love them.
"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:21 pm

Newsrk727......you missed my point

We banned pot, yet it is widely used, made and imported
We banned booze, yet it was widely used made and imported
We banned meth, yet it is widely used made and imported
We banned other drugs but they are still wodelu used, and imported

In each case rates of crime have shot up because of the bans.

Why would banning guns be any different? They tend to cause more problems than they solve and in most cases make things worse as the temperance socieity eventually figured out.

Actually I wonder how much 'gun crime' is actually more correctly drug crime
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
PHX787
Posts: 7892
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:23 pm

has anyone even touched upon the fact that all the media outlets got the dude's name wrong?

Quoting vanguard737 (Reply 122):
YOU CAN NOT ELIMINATE EVIL WITH LEGISLATION.

All of this.

Simply banning an object is not going to prevent anything. The scenario I see is the mafia doing what they do in japan- smuggling guns inbound.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2976
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:27 pm

Such a horrific tragedy, it almost brought tears to my eyes the thought of an entire kindergarten class murdered...I just can't fathom what would drive this guy to do this, and especially so close to the holidays. What a coward this guy was, bringing guns against children and then killing himself to evade the consequences, it's just sickening and my prayers go out to all the families of this tragedy.

Having said this, I think a meaningful and civilized dialogue about gun control absolutely needs to take place. I believe in the 2nd Amendment, think that citizens should have the choice to own firearms and philosophically don't agree with the state completely nationalizing violence and defense, but I'm open to reasonable regulation of firearms. There are many on here who are either pro-gun control or anti-gun control with the predictable reactions...but can we not come together and perhaps agree on some reasonable regulation that could meaningfully address these issues while at the same time ensuring that the right of a law-abiding citizen to bear arms is not infringed?

Quoting Mir (Reply 100):
Quoting Aesma (Reply 86):
Does US society deal with mental illness ? Aren't right wing nuts the most opposed to free health care and gun restrictions at the same time ?

That is quite the irony, yes.

Let's not paint with such broad strokes here, there are those on both sides with predictable knee-jerk reactions to each other...neither of which are productive nor unexpected.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2007
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 135):

Simply banning an object is not going to prevent anything. The scenario I see is the mafia doing what they do in japan- smuggling guns inbound.

Incidentally, Japan has way, way fewer guns than the United States in it. So saying that more bans on guns wouldn't do anything is fairly untrue. Guns are different from drugs and alcohol in one key respect- the potential for physical danger is irreducible. Crime and social problems leading to violence grow up around drugs and alcohol, but can be averted if society is careful about it. Guns are weapons that can cause violence and there's no way around it.
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 136):
but can we not come together and perhaps agree on some reasonable regulation that could meaningfully address these issues while at the same time ensuring that the right of a law-abiding citizen to bear arms is not infringed?

This. It's also the case that public opinion supports many such laws which have yet to be enacted, but is generally against a complete ban.

To me "gun control" means regulation of guns to make their sale and possession easier to track and laws harder to circumvent. It does not mean "banning guns" which a lot of people seem to think it does. Maybe we need a new term to make regulation more palatable.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
JakeOrion
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:13 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 136):
There are many on here who are either pro-gun control or anti-gun control with the predictable reactions...but can we not come together and perhaps agree on some reasonable regulation that could meaningfully address these issues while at the same time ensuring that the right of a law-abiding citizen to bear arms is not infringed?

Not unless the human race adopts the philosophy of suppressing human emotions, like in the film Equilibrium. Unfortunately, no matter how much legislation, care, therapy and whatever else, there are those among us who have true evil in their hearts, and are just waiting for the chance to inflict pain on the rest of us.

I would be more focused on the failure of security protocol that allowed him into the school rather than focusing on a gun debate. There was a system in place to prevent this from happening and it failed. The question is, why?
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2007
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:39 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 136):
Having said this, I think a meaningful and civilized dialogue about gun control absolutely needs to take place

I believe this as well, and if it takes place I will abide by its result. But right now, it's impeded by the steadfast and unreasoning opposition to the discussion by the pro-gun sentiments, and the absence of reasonable, clear objectives for the anti-gun set- gun control will look different depending on what you are trying to prevent from happening, unless you go all the way and blanket ban.
 
RobertNL070
Posts: 4164
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:29 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:47 pm

According to the BBC, twenty children and six adults have been SHOT DEAD.
















Why...?
Born to be wild ...... until about 9 p.m.
Home = RTM, Rotterdam The Hague.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:48 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 136):
I believe in the 2nd Amendment, think that citizens should have the choice to own firearms and philosophically don't agree with the state completely nationalizing violence and defense, but I'm open to reasonable regulation of firearms. There are many on here who are either pro-gun control or anti-gun control with the predictable reactions...but can we not come together and perhaps agree on some reasonable regulation that could meaningfully address these issues while at the same time ensuring that the right of a law-abiding citizen to bear arms is not infringed?

      I agree... I think a happy/ier medium can be reached
 
Rara
Posts: 2309
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:49 pm

Very, very sad. This is the price America pays for liberal gun laws. It's a terrible price, but many are willing to pay it.

Look how many people in this thread are exclusively concerned with keeping their guns.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1833
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 134):
Why would banning guns be any different? They tend to cause more problems than they solve and in most cases make things worse as the temperance socieity eventually figured out.

Yep Liberals will never figure this out... You can ban guns won't mean a thing..There has been mass gunman in places where it is very restrictive or illegal. Also you do not need a gun to inflict mass death one Timothy McVeigh comes to mind as do the terrorists of 9/11. If someone is hell bent on killing I hate to say it but in our free society there is not a whole lot thats going to stop it..
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:01 pm

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 144):
You can ban guns won't mean a thing..There has been mass gunman in places where it is very restrictive or illegal. Also you do not need a gun to inflict mass death one Timothy McVeigh comes to mind as do the terrorists of 9/11.

Come on, you know what they are saying. NO ONE is saying banning guns will stop mass murders, they are saying it would decrease violence. Look at Norway, they still had what's his face do what he did (Brevik?) I don't see why there are so many of us gun owners that are 100% against any gun control... in reality, a lot of it will probably reduce crime and not affect us in any way
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2976
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:05 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 138):
This. It's also the case that public opinion supports many such laws which have yet to be enacted, but is generally against a complete ban.

And I would agree with hesitation. It's all too easy to pass emotionally charged, reactionary but ultimately ineffective legislation-- i.e. the assault weapons ban, I don't believe the rifle this shooter used was an assault weapon, and banning assault weapons would not meaningfully combat mass shootings. I would, however, be supportive of regulation that would effectively combat the issues at hand whilst still enabling the citizenry the freedom to choose to own firearms.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 139):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 136):
There are many on here who are either pro-gun control or anti-gun control with the predictable reactions...but can we not come together and perhaps agree on some reasonable regulation that could meaningfully address these issues while at the same time ensuring that the right of a law-abiding citizen to bear arms is not infringed?

Not unless the human race adopts the philosophy of suppressing human emotions, like in the film Equilibrium.

Well I don't think it's THAT hopeless, I think there exist areas which the two sides could agree upon to mitigate the dangers of mass shootings and the circulation of illegal firearms.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 140):
But right now, it's impeded by the steadfast and unreasoning opposition to the discussion by the pro-gun sentiments, and the absence of reasonable, clear objectives for the anti-gun set- gun control will look different depending on what you are trying to prevent from happening, unless you go all the way and blanket ban.

To be sure, both sides are obstinate and reactionary to one another, but I think if a dialogue is going to take place, it needs to happen around an agreed-upon framework: 1) Unless the 2nd Amendment is repealed, private gun ownership is here to stay and is constitutionally protected and that not every type of gun control legislation is effective. 2) And likewise the other side needs to accept that gun control=/=confiscation of firearms...and then from there, find meaningful areas of agreement.
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:08 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 146):
And I would agree with hesitation. It's all too easy to pass emotionally charged, reactionary but ultimately ineffective legislation

I live in San Francisco- you're preaching to the choir.....
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
PHX787
Posts: 7892
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:18 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 137):
Incidentally, Japan has way, way fewer guns than the United States in it. So saying that more bans on guns wouldn't do anything is fairly untrue. Guns are different from drugs and alcohol in one key respect- the potential for physical danger is irreducible. Crime and social problems leading to violence grow up around drugs and alcohol, but can be averted if society is careful about it. Guns are weapons that can cause violence and there's no way around it.

Social upbringing also has a large impact on a society. Japan, again, for exampl, puts an extreme social stigma against straying too far from the norms, the line of which is not drawn clearly, but obviously incidents that would happen in Japan such as this are met with universal condemnation and discourse on how to prevent issues from arising....not lashing out against how the introduction of armed citizens in a society can possibly stop it   (which would be an inverse of the discourse on gun laws here)
The issue is not guns....it's the society. We need to figure out how to get people my age (I'm 21) to stop doing this. Plain and simple. Seems like my generation is turning into a lost generation.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
sbworcs
Posts: 821
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:21 pm

All I can say is that my sincere condolences go out to all.

I cannot imagine what those families are going through, especially at this time of year.
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2976
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 148):
The issue is not guns....it's the society. We need to figure out how to get people my age (I'm 21) to stop doing this. Plain and simple. Seems like my generation is turning into a lost generation.

I very much agree. I'm not saying there isn't some common-sense gun legislation that can be passed to address this gun issue to an extent. We've had the same gun laws in the US for over 200 years, yet we hardly experienced any of these horrific shootings until the last 15 years or so, why are we only now experiencing all of these problems? It's obvious, at least to me and a great many others, that there are more pressing underlying social and educational factors in play here...
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19111
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 25):
In fact, a lot of situations will resolve differently when somebody has a gun.

That's true. If only all those kids had been armed, this would have never happened.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 33):
At public schools in Arizona and in Ohio, both states have security people present, sometimes armed, sometimes police officers. Reportedly NO resistance or security was present. What the hell.

You think it's NORMAL to have armed guards IN A PRIMARY SCHOOL?   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
vanguard737
Posts: 561
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2001 7:02 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:50 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 137):
Guns are weapons that can cause violence and there's no way around it.

Last I knew, any physical object used to cause harm to another is a weapon. By your logic, we should ban bricks, as they can be bludgeoning objects.

Quoting Rara (Reply 143):
Look how many people in this thread are exclusively concerned with keeping their guns.

Okay, Perhaps you should also note how many people have exclusively posted on here to voice their hatred of firearms and those who own them without a single mention of thought or condolence to the victims and their families. (Despite the mass majority of gun owners being peaceful, law abiding citizens).
319 320 321 359 717 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 744 748 752 753 763 764 772 773 788 789 781 DC9 DC10 MD80 B1900 S340 E120 E145 E170 E175 CRJ CR7
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:05 am

Quoting vanguard737 (Reply 152):
Okay, Perhaps you should also note how many people have exclusively posted on here to voice their hatred of firearms and those who own them without a single mention of thought or condolence to the victims and their families.

They're not angry at guns, they're angry at gun violence. But in any case I don't think it's fair to ascribe emotions (or lack thereof) to other people just because you don't react the same way as them.

Quoting vanguard737 (Reply 152):
Last I knew, any physical object used to cause harm to another is a weapon. By your logic, we should ban bricks, as they can be bludgeoning objects.

We don't build houses out of guns (or do anything useful with them), so it's a meaningless comparison.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15203
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:17 am

To me another factor in these mass, terrorist murders is that many of the killers want to make a big splash in the media, going out of this world in glory. The rise of at first radio and TV and now the net, may encourage more to do these obscene acts know that their act will be broadcast and be heard around the world. This shooting has become the only thing covered news media channels and much of broadcast TV today, clearly meeting a goal of this sick bastard.
 
User avatar
vanguard737
Posts: 561
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2001 7:02 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:21 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 153):
(or do anything useful with them)

We don't do anything useful with firearms? I'm not even going to bother digging deeper into that moronic statement...
319 320 321 359 717 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 744 748 752 753 763 764 772 773 788 789 781 DC9 DC10 MD80 B1900 S340 E120 E145 E170 E175 CRJ CR7
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5848
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:22 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 150):
I very much agree. I'm not saying there isn't some common-sense gun legislation that can be passed to address this gun issue to an extent. We've had the same gun laws in the US for over 200 years, yet we hardly experienced any of these horrific shootings until the last 15 years or so, why are we only now experiencing all of these problems? It's obvious, at least to me and a great many others, that there are more pressing underlying social and educational factors in play here...

School shootings increased sharply in the 1990ies, but they are an old problem in the U.S.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting - the Bath School bombing in 1927 stands out, perpetrated by the school's treasurer, which left 45 dead.

How many of these shootings had higher victim counts because the shooters had access to the pistols instead of revolvers? And how many of these shootings have anything to do with changes in U.S. society?

David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:23 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 154):
This shooting has become the only thing covered news media channels and much of broadcast TV today, clearly meeting a goal of this sick bastard.

Lot of assumptions here. We really don't know anything about him or his motivations yet. Additionally this is a newsworthy event- we can't stop the press reporting it.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15730
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: CT School Shooting

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:27 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 151):
You think it's NORMAL to have armed guards IN A PRIMARY SCHOOL?

Yes. They're called School Resource Officers and are part of the city's police force.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
GDB
Posts: 13753
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:32 am

There will be inevitable comparisons with Breivik in Norway. Though many US gun enthusiasts have this idea that there is some kind of blanket mass restriction in other Western democracies, which is not the case at all. It varies from country to country. But only one has mass gun ownership. The US.

But that's to miss the point. These insane events are perpetrated by people that for whatever reason, snap.
Breivik was different, he spent years planning his actions. To the exclusion of everything else in life.
He is better understood as a 'Lone Wolf' terrorist. Carrying out in his twisted mind, the 'Leaderless Resistance' that the far right has been advocating, salivating over, for a long time.
Right out of the US 'Militia' playbook.
He was in fact, Norway's Timothy McVeigh. Even to the point of setting off a bomb too.
Also aimed at governmental institutions, as were those young people on that island, since they were junior members of a political party.

To compare him with those who did this evil deed in CT and all the others, is false.
Yet another straw man for the NRA types.
It also smacks of desperation.
Nowhere near as desperate as the loved ones of the victims of the latest massacre at a school are feeling now.
Those kids, teachers, well their hands are cold and dead now.
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:32 am

Quoting vanguard737 (Reply 155):
We don't do anything useful with firearms? I'm not even going to bother digging deeper into that moronic statement...

Easy tiger!

To clarify, I meant they do not have a purpose other than to cause, or threaten to cause harm. Bricks are primarily used for building things.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: CT School Shooting

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:38 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 160):
To clarify, I meant they do not have a purpose other than to cause, or threaten to cause harm.

Sigh... I've never fired a gun intending to kill, nor have I purchased one thinking I will kill. In fact, there are many .22s built specifically with ONLY target shooting in mind (.22s aren't too good for shooting, these target guns are only for target shooting.) It's not crazy to say guns can be built and purchased for recreation as well as killing. If we break down "killing" into killing people and hunting, you further remove a chunk of guns from the "killing humans" category

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Oliver2020 and 47 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos