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lewis
Posts: 3586
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Why Not Privatise Existing Public Services?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:33 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 62):
It would be an easy way to demonstrate the disaster that nationalization of companies often becomes

There has been one disaster demonstration so far, and that has been the privatization of the National Rail in the UK. Service has gone down, prices are ridiculously high and the taxpayer continues to chip-in to subsidize all those "efficient" private companies that now run services.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 66):
Or when you want to move a lot of freight without clogging the interstate.

Gee, I bet people might be willing to pay for something like that.

You are ignoring the fact that infrastructure on such a large scale costs a lot of money, too much for the private sector to even assume the risk. The return on the investment is also pretty low, since even a profitable rail system would take a long time to actually make its worth for its investors. A private investor would never look so far in the future for returns, they are more interested in shorter-term gains. This is when governments step in, to assume the risk where there is a business case to be made that cannot satisfy the private appetite for a quick buck.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Why Not Privatise Existing Public Services?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:58 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 100):
Service has gone down, prices are ridiculously high and the taxpayer continues to chip-in to subsidize all those "efficient" private companies that now run services.

You mean that prices are less subsidized than they were before. If you aren't willing to use something unless it's subsidized, get rid of it.

Quoting lewis (Reply 100):
You are ignoring the fact that infrastructure on such a large scale costs a lot of money, too much for the private sector to even assume the risk.

If the return does not justify the risk, it doesn't need to be built when you're talking about railroads.

Quoting lewis (Reply 100):
A private investor would never look so far in the future for returns

Warren Buffett did.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Why Not Privatise Existing Public Services?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:11 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 99):
It happens to some, and it happens to some more than others.

It happens to everyone.

But what do you plan to do with the people who are at bigger risk? What will you do to the poor mother of two making 35k a year who's husband died in Iraq and who is at risk for breast cancer. Tell her that she will die because she costs too much? What will you do with the kids once she is gone?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 99):
But perhaps not cheaper than sharing the risks with 50,000,000 people who are generally healthy and pose lower risk.

Sure, as soon as someone starts biking, change the insurance group they belong to. Same if their driving habits change. Or if they start playing a sport. Or if they eat fried food. Or if they don't eat their veggies.

You are creating and administration overhead that takes away whatever benefits there is. And then you want to add a company tax, sorry profit on top of that.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Ken777
Posts: 10153
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Why Not Privatise Existing Public Services?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:21 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 93):
Healthy people in the US still pay ridiculous insurance premiums.

And their employers. People tend to forget that the costs of employer nanny care increases costs and also increases the costs of employing people.

I was thinking of that the other day when someone asked what was the most important thing I remembered from my years in Australia business. The first thing? That albatross of employer nanny care was not hanging around the neck of employers.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 99):
But perhaps not cheaper than sharing the risks with 50,000,000 people who are generally healthy and pose lower risk.

The problem with that approach is that there are a lot of people not insured and their treatments are added to the costs of your insurance. It's the generally unspoken socialized medicine tax that is included in each month's premiums. That jacks up what you pay, or what your employer pays in nanny care. When the employers pay more then they lower raises or the number of people employed. You pay in then end so it's not cheaper.

But it does mean that, on average, you can wait in the ER for 4 hours before being taken care of.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 99):
You can try education, but at the end of the day you can't fix stupid. He'll go to jail eventually.

Hopefully before he and other members run into your kids.
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:08 am

RE: Why Not Privatise Existing Public Services?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:58 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 101):
Quoting lewis (Reply 100):
Service has gone down, prices are ridiculously high and the taxpayer continues to chip-in to subsidize all those "efficient" private companies that now run services.

You mean that prices are less subsidized than they were before.

Since privatisation, both subsidies and prices have risen. Indeed by the mid 2000s, subsidies to the National Rail network were over double (inflation adjusted) the subsidies that the public British Rail received. In addition to these increased subsidies, fares had consistently risen above inflation and the quality of service provided whilst better has not changed that much on a number of key indicators.

The problem is that to avoid a private monopoly the railway was fragmented and sold. This significantly increased interfaces which as well as being responsible for four fatal rail crashes, cause significant overlap, a complex regulatory environment and vast sums wasted on legal costs.
 
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HELyes
Posts: 1637
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:26 am

RE: Why Not Privatise Existing Public Services?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:45 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 97):
But the biggest problems I have seen are related to the treatment of teachers these days. The costs of their education compared to pay & benefits are sufficient for me to believe that only a fool would become a teacher these days.

That sounds rather different from Finland, where teaching has high social status and is one of the top career choices.
A research-based master’s degree is the minimum requirement and it's not easy to get in: Last spring Helsinki University received 2,300 applicants for 120 spots in its primary school teacher education program.
University education is free of charge.

http://www.businessinsider.com/finla...-system-best-in-world-2012-11?op=1
 
Ken777
Posts: 10153
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Why Not Privatise Existing Public Services?

Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:15 am

Quoting HELyes (Reply 105):
That sounds rather different from Finland, where teaching has high social status and is one of the top career choices.

Teachers in the US have been looked down on for a long time. I can remember my math teacher in hte 8th grade working at a convenience store in summer because of the low pay from teaching. Really a queer deal here as the schools demand continuing education and a Masters is not uncommon.

High social status is not reality here - unless you are a football coach.
 
melpax
Posts: 2133
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:13 am

RE: Why Not Privatise Existing Public Services?

Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:33 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 106):
Teachers in the US have been looked down on for a long time. I can remember my math teacher in hte 8th grade working at a convenience store in summer because of the low pay from teaching. Really a queer deal here as the schools demand continuing education and a Masters is not uncommon.

High social status is not reality here - unless you are a football coach.

Same here, I remember one of high school teachers who was a qualified economist telling us about the huge bonuses his stockbroker mates from uni were getting (this was the early 90's). His wife was a nurse who usually did weekend or night shifts, and she earned more than what he was teaching.

Although we don't have the focus on high-school sports that happens in the US - team sports here are club-based, football players are recruited from junior competitions or regional leagues instead of schools. In my case I only had to do sport as a compulsory subject until year 10, the last 2 years of high school here, you have to choose your subjects based on what degree you want to get into, or trade, etc. Also, state governments would be reluctant to put up the funding for top-notch sporting facilities at every high school, when a basic oval & gym doubling up as a basketball court can do the job...

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