Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Boeing717200
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:26 pm

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:33 pm

I gave a guy a cheeseburger once. He threw it back at me. Pretty much ruined it for the rest of them.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
RussianJet
Topic Author
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:52 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 50):
I gave a guy a cheeseburger once. He threw it back at me. Pretty much ruined it for the rest of them.

That's a shame, but did you talk to him first? Definitely best to ask if he'd actually like one first, though of course there is no excuse for the reaction you got.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
User avatar
mad99
Posts: 1279
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:33 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:58 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 27):
It's like an infestation of roaches

Ha!
If you live in Oslo then your seeing the 4 that didn't move to Madrid.

They take the metro to my neighbourhood just to beg then go home at night. One trick the use is to approach tourists with a form for the "deaf kids of spain" asking to donate money. Claiming to be deaf means he doesn't need to know spanish and the form will have several "John Smith" 20 euro donations.... transferring from 2e to 2f at cdg i was approved by roma with the same form so its everywhere.





Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 30):
Europeans put an equal sign where there shouldn't be one.

my daughter has a Romanian classmate and her folks are dead on, we meet them from time to time.
When my cousin went to Romania to do charity work i said that place must be the biggest shit in the word but he said not at all. He like it!
I guess because the bad ones are over here now.
 
RussianJet
Topic Author
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:05 am

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 30):
Rroma are not necessarily Romanian. There are Rroma throughout Europe.

Quite so. There are large numbers from Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Bulgaria for example. Can also be found in Russia and the Ukraine, though to say they are despised in Russia would be an understatement.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
Braniff747SP
Posts: 2579
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:56 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:07 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 52):

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 27):
It's like an infestation of roaches

Ha!
If you live in Oslo then your seeing the 4 that didn't move to Madrid.

   They are everywhere in Madrid.

Can't sit down at a bloody cafe without having a group of four of them swarm you, shove a newspaper in your face, and try to take your cellphone. Hits foreigners the worst.
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
dc9northwest
Posts: 2270
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:33 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:50 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 52):
I guess because the bad ones are over here now.

The bad ones are everywhere. But we've had the bad luck that many gypsies settled in Romania and that Rromani and Romania sound identical to the foreign ear.

Romania's not a bad country but many people aren't great. We have a saying: "what a nice country... too bad it's populated". I'm not saying it's heaven on Earth but it's not as bad as the European media portrays it... that's for sure.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 53):
Quite so. There are large numbers from Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Bulgaria for example. Can also be found in Russia and the Ukraine, though to say they are despised in Russia would be an understatement.

YYou can definitely add Hungary to the list. The gypsies in the Hungarian-majority part of Romania speak Hungarian. That doesn't mean they're Hungarian, just that they don't really give a crap where they're born.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:19 am

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
This question is the result of a discussion, well disagreement really, I had with a friend the other day. I was approached for money by an obvious vagrant who was in a very sorry-looking state, and I said no, but asked if he was hungry and if he would like something to eat. He said yes, so I duly furnished him with BK burger and a hot cup of coffee. He was very grateful and scoffed the burger immediately.

I once took a girl who was begging into a small restaurant and ordered a little bit to eat and some coffee.. I however refused to give her a single cent, as I suspected that she was on drugs. An intelligent and amusing girl, and some 10 years ago just around 20 and nevertheless possibly now no longer alive.

About three years later, a chap was begging at a rail-station and I invited him for some good but cheap wine in the restaurant just around the corner. No, he was NOT an alcoholic. And an intelligent and well educated chap who had run into trouble out of circumstances. I gave him some pracitcal tips and recommendations, and later learnt the he had become a computer programmer, for a short while working for our computer partner.

But I never give money to beggars
 
User avatar
n229nw
Posts: 2031
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:21 am

Sigh. I hate reading these hatefests, because I have a wife, and especially because I have kids, who are Gypsies.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 21):
Avoiding talking about them as a group is just impossibly stupid PC behaviour. They ACT AS A GROUP: a dehumanising organised crime ring built on the abuse of the children and the exploitation of the many for wealth of a few crime bosses. The EU is currently, with its generous policies, providing the perfect 'Petri dish' to ferment their activity and numbers.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. First of all: to equate all Roma to Romanian Vlach Roma begging rings is not only unfair to the many other groups of Roma (and I don't mean Irish travelers, because they are not Roma), but it also unfair to all the Romanian Vlach Roma who are not like that.

You can (and should) make laws about begging and crack down on begging rings and without talking about whole races (or whole cultures) as scum.

Grouping all the Roma in the world together is like grouping all the Jews in the world together, Hasidic and reformed, Ashkenazy and Sephardic, Israeli and French, arch-Zionist and critical of Israel, etc. etc.

It serves nothing, and it does NOT lead to policies that will solve any of the problems you discuss. I challenge you to explain one anti-begging-racket policy that could be made better by framing it in racialized terms. All it does is penalize all the Roma who are integrated and not beggars. And all it does is demean the country that implements the law and subject it to (justified) human-rights and discrimination lawsuits.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 30):
They don't wash. That's the truth.. Back in Romania and Bulgaria they will not live in a house with a toilet inside, even if given for free. It's "against their culture".

You can find some people from any group who will be examples of what you claim. I can't speak for sure for Romania and Bulgaria, because I haven't been there, but I am extremely skeptical that what you say is true of more than a small minority of Roma even there. The Roma we do socialize with from those two countries (a few from each) all have very good hygiene, and all of them would just roll their eyes at a generalization like the one you make.

Another reason I doubt your statement is that I've heard people say similar things about Czech Roma, and there I can say from plentiful experience that if you go in a Romany home in the Czech Republic, even if there are all kinds of other social problems, you will find it spotless, except for a very few cases of Roma in ghettos at the very bottom of the social scale--I mean people who are so far gone on gambling and drugs that they have lost it. I've been in probably over a hundred Romany households in the Czech Republic, in different parts of the country, and 99% are neater and more hygienic than the ethnic Czech homes I have been in.

But once again we are back to the whole problem of generalizations of whole cultures and races. While there is high petty crime, alcoholism, unemployment, sometimes street gangs, etc. among Roma in the Czech Republic, they don't run large-scale crime rings or begging rackets. Yet they are just as detested--actually more than in most other countries. When we are in the Czech Republic my kids have been cursed at. They've been almost beaten up on the playground (by an adult). And the stuff that doctors, nurses, and so forth say in front of them is simply shameful.

To repeat, in most countries besides Romania, Roma don't run organized crime begging rackets and don't live in mansions. The beggars who are causing so much trouble across Europe are all from one particular sub-group of Roma.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 55):
That doesn't mean they're Hungarian, just that they don't really give a crap where they're born.

Again, I try to speak from experience; in the case of Hungary I only know some Hungarian Roma. But we have a good friend who has lived in Hungary with a lot of Roma. None of them "don't give a crap where they're born." A few (as in the Czech Republic) don't like the majority population. But it's because they have been continually bullied, shat on, and discriminated against. Not in any way because of some "nomadic" genes or whatever the Hungarians attribute it to. Our friend has seen the same types of job discrimination and education discrimination there as in the Czech Republic and Slovakia--and I'm sure Bulgaria and Romania as well.

The level of prejudice from school administrators, doctors, landlords, employers, night-club bouncers, etc. etc. etc. is like something from another century in many cases. I have witnessed it repeatedly. It is saddest when it is directed toward children--including mine, which has happened multiple times. My children are clean and well-dressed. But they are Roma as everyone there can tell by their skin color.

Most of my wife's relatives and many Romany friends have been threatened or attacked by skinheads more than once. Most have been turned away from jobs (and no they don't smell) and school places. Most have been abused by neighbors. The lighter-skinned ones are "in the closet" often so their employers and neighbors leave them alone. It is outlandish. The ones who have left the country have left because of these reasons, not to go beg or exploit.

There is plenty of blame to go around, but if countries want to pretend they are "modern," then discrimination has to be tackled alongside implementing any "law and order" clampdowns. Oh, and sentences have to be commensurate (another kind of discrimination). Right now, "youths" who throw Molotov cocktails into Romany houses get a slap on the wrist and a wink from the public prosecutors, while Roma who curse at the police can get multiple-year sentences.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 30):
Furthermore, their whole culture is based on un-traditional work... but, preferably, separating suckers from their money.

That is not true for many of them. And again, it conflates many different groups of Roma. And it leads to constant discrimination.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 44):
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 43):
BTW, what's with all the hate-speech over Gypsies? Wow, sounds like a call for ethnic cleansing-----whaaaaat-----from our peace loving and liberal membership? Don't say it's true!

Unfortunately, the fact is that in western Europe there is a serious and very acute problem with regard to Roma gypsies from eastern Europe. They often arrive with nothing, are prolific and very organised beggars who don't think twice aboutusing or exploiting children, and are responsible for a lot of petty crime. I wish it wasn't so, but it's real. In the UK the Police have regularly bemoaned the fact that little can be done to prevent the presence of those who only want to take. It's not 'hate', it's an understandable reaction to the facts.

Problematic and somewhat ignorant. Who is the "they" here? Because except for the one subgroup, they are not "prolific and very organize beggars"--in fact they are not beggars at all. The thing is, for example, in the UK, there are Roma who come (largely from Romania) as part of begging rings. But there are also many Roma who come from Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Hungary, and even also Romania, who simply come to work and make better lives. When we lived in London, my wife volunteered with them helping with English courses, etc. There is definitely entrenched poverty and a lack of social networks to push for the best education etc., but these Roma have nothing to do with the street beggars. And in fact, they tend to curse at them--"for giving us a bad name" (I've seen that a few times).

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 44):
The problem is that they have long been victimised in their own countries, treated as second-class citizens for generations.

That's true. And they still are. That doesn't excuse criminal behavior. I will not make excuses and claim that people aren't responsible for their actions if they are picking pockets or something. But it does help explain it.

Again, you have to work from both sides, and...shocker...if you want to help Roma, you have to actually have Roma involved in the efforts, not just come up with patronizing throwing of money at situations and patronizing policies that are supposed to "fix" their culture.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 55):
But we've had the bad luck that many gypsies settled in Romania

Hmmm...maybe that's because you kept them as slaves for several centuries. After that, your government can try to make it illegal for them to call themselves their own word for themselves, Romany (because it sounds like Romania), but they don't have much moral capital there, do they? Now, again, I think people have to take responsibility for their actions in the modern world, but the fact remains that all of the most secretive and separatist groups of Roma are descended from those slaves. That includes those coming out of Romania recently and the majority of the Roma that settled in the US until recently.
__________________________________________________________________
In sum, instead of all the racializing, how about some common sense policy:

--Never give money to beggars. Just give food, if the person says they want it.
--Wherever there are organized begging rackets (in most cases run by Vlach Romanian Roma, but in cases that have nothing to do with Roma as well) smash the rings, arrest the ring leaders, deport the leaders (or middlemen), help the victims at the bottom of the chain, especially the kids. The beggars will clear out quickly.
--If a person is begging with a kid who is school aged and not in school, or if the kid looks drugged, report it to the local children's authorities. In many cases, their hands may be tied, but sometimes it can help.

[Edited 2013-01-27 20:58:18]
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:52 am

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
to equate all Roma to Romanian

you indeed cannot equate all gypsies with each other or with Romanians or all Romanians with each other . Most of all Gypsies and most of all Romanians do not have a sentence of justice on their records.

The problem is that people in Western Europe since 1990 have seen that
- many Gypsies ARE Romanians
- that a good share of Romanians abroad ARE Gypsies
- that many Gypsies ARE involved in crime

Alright, out of my "facial features" I am often regarded as a Gypsy so what --- I am not a better person I am just not one of them
 
dc9northwest
Posts: 2270
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:33 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:33 am

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):

Sorry I won't reply to all your specific points. I will, however, address some.

I do not think that Gypsies/Rroma are by blood inferior to anyone else. That's ridiculous.

However, when I see a culture that marries girls off at 12 years old or forbids them from going to school after they're 12 years old (I've heard these countless times), I do have a problem.

I also have a problem when a gypsy kills one of my best friend's friend. I also have a problem when Europe discriminates against a nation or a few because of a minority, again because of a lack of education.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
You can (and should) make laws about begging and crack down on begging rings and without talking about whole races (or whole cultures) as scum.

Unfortunately, this is the same all over the world. Including in the civilized USA.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
After that, your government can try to make it illegal for them to call themselves their own word for themselves, Romany (because it sounds like Romania), but they don't have much moral capital there, do they?

I see. Because our government has people in it who are 200 years old, and it's the same one as in 1855. The people in that government are bigger criminals than those pickpocketing on the streets of Madrid or London.

BTW, the US government is basically the same. Plus, they criminalized slavery at exactly the same time.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
education discrimination

I've heard about one Rroma girl going to the Sorbonne. Good for her. Plus, I know of no one who will impede the progress of any one who knows their stuff and behaves well because of their race. Considering you can apply to most schools/universities under "minority seats", I don't think you can say there's discrimination in education... Then again, there's nothing to verify there's not but my words.

Now, what about all the kids (13-25 age range) in the trains who play their music at ear-deafening levels? Where are their manners and why are 90% of them gypsies?

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
And in fact, they tend to curse at them--"for giving us a bad name" (I've seen that a few times).

Why doesn't that happen more often? I understand the gypsy culture emphasizes honor. So, are the beggars outcasts? Why don't we see more about the rest of the Gypsies? Not a good story? Why don't they try to sanitize the view about their race?

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
That's true. And they still are.

Right, because the UK and France treats Gypsies much better. It's not Romania who tried to send them away just to get rid of them... No, no one really likes them and I wonder why.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
. The Roma we do socialize with from those two countries (a few from each) all have very good hygiene, and all of them would just roll their eyes at a generalization like the one you make.

Why do we not see more of them? Are they hiding? Why is there the fact that every story about these people is negative?

Why do they themselves not fight the prejudice? Why don't they stop the ill-mannered kids from sexually harassing girls or pickpocketing in the bus?

Why do gypsy mothers allow their kids to take a piss in the town square?

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
That is not true for many of them. And again, it conflates many different groups of Roma. And it leads to constant discrimination.

I'm also afraid that it is true (in Romania) that when 17 Gypsies travel together, they do not pay for train tickets, they talk about how many years in prison you get for murder (it's 17 if you're interested) and they shout at Polish tourists minding their own business and going to the bathroom.

It is also true that the guy I sat across from dressed nicer than most Romanians.

I had 2 Gypsies in my 28 people class in middle school. You can't really generalize from that, I suppose. But they were decent people.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
To repeat, in most countries besides Romania, Roma don't run organized crime begging rackets and don't live in mansions. The beggars who are causing so much trouble across Europe are all from one particular sub-group of Roma.

I have heard before that "our" Rroma are particularly bad and that Slovakia and Czech Rep. don't have our problems on the same scale.

Who should I believe? You or my 14 years of experience living in Romania? All I've said in this thread I've seen with my own eyes or have been told by countless sources whom I trust. Not by newspapers or other media sources.
 
RussianJet
Topic Author
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:26 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 56):
I gave him some pracitcal tips and recommendations, and later learnt the he had become a computer programmer, for a short while working for our computer partner.

Kudos to you - great story.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
Because except for the one subgroup, they are not "prolific and very organize beggars"--in fact they are not beggars at all.

If it really is one subgroup then they are extraordinarily prolific, and pretty large in number given that such problems are present in large numbers of towns in countries across western Europe. I fully believe what you've said about your experiences, but you still can't blame people for reacting to an absolutely disgraceful crime and begging racket situation. Discrimination is not to be excused, and I am genuinely grateful for your insight, but this behaviour I will spare no verbal mercy to. I am more than happy though to qualify what I have said with the statement and belief that any law-abiding citizen is welcome here regardless of race or creed. Although it may not be all sections of the Roma community involved, it is nonetheless an utterly intolerable situation which quite frankly is an utter affront to our country and the hospitality it extends. You are quite right when you say it should be stamped on, as this would surely also benefit law-abiding Roma.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
--Wherever there are organized begging rackets (in most cases run by Vlach Romanian Roma, but in cases that have nothing to do with Roma as well) smash the rings, arrest the ring leaders, deport the leaders (or middlemen), help the victims at the bottom of the chain, especially the kids. The beggars will clear out quickly.

I agree strongly with these sentiments. Unfortunately though, if it was this easy then I rather fancy that the problem wouldn't still be so widespread and serious across western Europe.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
User avatar
n229nw
Posts: 2031
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:32 pm

And to you, too. Sorry I won't be able to respond to all your points.

Let's start where we agree completely:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
However, when I see a culture that marries girls off at 12 years old or forbids them from going to school after they're 12 years old (I've heard these countless times), I do have a problem.

Absolutely. People have to live in the modern world. No disagreement.

I feel the same way about most religious extremists of all religions or cultures. But, just as I have a problem equating all Muslims with Wahabbists or all Jews with Hasidim who stone people's cars when they drive on the Sabbath and such, I know that almost all Roma don't do that outside the Vlach/Vlax (the main Romanian-slave descended group) and some groups of British travelers who are Roma.

Romania really does have a situation that is quite different from other countries--and so the "Roma problem" in different places should not be conflated.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
I see. Because our government has people in it who are 200 years old, and it's the same one as in 1855. The people in that government are bigger criminals than those pickpocketing on the streets of Madrid or London.

BTW, the US government is basically the same. Plus, they criminalized slavery at exactly the same time.

I'm not blaming the current Romanian government, nor current Romanians, for what happened until the 1850s. Indeed, it was liberal Romanian nationalists who largely freed the slaves held by the Orthodox church and the boyars.

But I am saying that given the long history of their enslavement there it is pretty ridiculous for Romania to try to officially legislate what Roma can call themselves abroad. Or to complain that it is their bad luck there are more Roma there than in other countries, since the slave history is why.

And I am also saying that slavery messes people up, and the fact that almost all the begging rackets, underage marriage, etc. come from the one group of Roma who were slaves for centuries is ultimately not very surprising.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
I do not think that Gypsies/Rroma are by blood inferior to anyone else. That's ridiculous.

That's a great start. Sadly, more than half of Czechs (and I'm sure many others) don't share your sentiments. When you have your adoption social workers warning you about the genetically criminal and/or nomadic "mentality" of the kids you are adopting, when your doctors say things like this, when teachers regularly act on these assumptions in the classroom, when you hear it day in day out, and when you know multiple people whose friends have stopped talking to them upon finding out their ethnicity, you can begin to see why the perpetuation of the current situation is not one-sided.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
Plus, I know of no one who will impede the progress of any one who knows their stuff and behaves well because of their race.

Walk a day in the shoes of a Rom in Central or Eastern Europe. Apply for a couple of jobs, and try to place your kids in the local school with your Romany last name, and you will soon know of many people who impede that progress.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
I also have a problem when a gypsy kills one of my best friend's friend.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend's friend. I have a problem (understatement) with anyone murdering anyone. But while I understand the psychology of being angry and of blaming the group, I still also have a problem with someone who says, "I hate black people because a n**** killed my friend."

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
Considering you can apply to most schools/universities under "minority seats", I don't think you can say there's discrimination in education...

At the university level there is some attempt to offer minority places. (And, by the way, there are more and more Romany university students. There are student clubs I know of, including in European Universities and of European Roma at American universities.) But to have more of this, the universities need to be fed with eariler education. I can't go into details without writing pages, but the situation with up to 80% of the Romany kids in the Czech Republic and Slovakia (and I think there are similar issues in Hungary) being segregated into special schools for the mentally retarded at the age when they start primary school is well-known. Only after recently losing a class-action lawsuit in the European Court of Human Rights on behalf of various Romany parents who wanted to have their kids get better educational opportunities did the Czech Republic make (cosmetic) changes made to this system, with the special schools renamed as vocational schools etc. But in many ways the situation persists. "Ghetto" parents with little education and who see little value in educating their kids if they won't be able to get a job anyway in many cases due to discrimination are definitely part of the problem. But so are the racist school psychologists who do the testing, and often place the kids in "special schools" openly because of their ethnicity, or because "their Czech isn't good enough"--as though that would be an excuse to put a Chinese immigrant in a school for the mentally handicapped. Force education integration (across Europe) at a young age, and you have the beginning of a real solution. (My guess is that most Roma in Romania as well don't have equal access to primary education, for a complex variety of reasons, both internal and external to "their culture"...)

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
Right, because the UK and France treats Gypsies much better. It's not Romania who tried to send them away just to get rid of them... No, no one really likes them and I wonder why.

Well, let's take the UK example: a recent report of Romany schoolchildren in the UK who came from the Czech Republic and Slovakia found that almost all had been put in schools for the retarded back in their home countries. (Many of the parents listed this at the top of their reasons for emigrating to the UK.) The study found that despite the kids being behind, having language difficulties, and having parents who were also uneducated and did not speak English, only a single-digit percent were found to actually belong in special schools, while most were catching up to average levels of achievement, and some were now University-bound.

There are differences in discrimination laws and attitudes across Europe--although there is racism everywhere in the world.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):

Why do we not see more of them? Are they hiding? Why is there the fact that every story about these people is negative?

Why do they themselves not fight the prejudice? Why don't they stop the ill-mannered kids from sexually harassing girls or pickpocketing in the bus?

Why do gypsy mothers allow their kids to take a piss in the town square?

Same reason that white Scottish people from the worst slums in Glasgow don't fix all these same problems themselves. Or street gangs in Los Angeles. Entrenched poverty and separation from mainstream society developing into an angry and oppositional mentality that is hard to break.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):

I'm also afraid that it is true (in Romania) that when 17 Gypsies travel together, they do not pay for train tickets, they talk about how many years in prison you get for murder (it's 17 if you're interested) and they shout at Polish tourists minding their own business and going to the bathroom.

I'm sure that is sometimes true. And there are plenty of people in America who would say that all that is "true" of blacks in this country. But the point is that it isn't true of other groups of Roma, or of other groups of blacks. And it isn't fair to hold it against all of them.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
I had 2 Gypsies in my 28 people class in middle school. You can't really generalize from that, I suppose. But they were decent people.

I bet they paid for their train tickets then, and didn't discuss murdering people. So, should those two people be expected to spend their lives overcompensating for everything people think about them?

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
I also have a problem when Europe discriminates against a nation or a few because of a minority, again because of a lack of education.

Then you will understand that that is what most Roma across most of Europe face most of the time. They are blamed not only for their own group's "problem" cases, but on top of that are generally associated with the most "problematic" group of Roma in Europe generally.

The lack of education is plenty to go around--and more education, of all kinds, would benefit all Roma, and all ethnically white Europeans.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
I have heard before that "our" Rroma are particularly bad and that Slovakia and Czech Rep. don't have our problems on the same scale.

Who should I believe? You or my 14 years of experience living in Romania? All I've said in this thread I've seen with my own eyes or have been told by countless sources whom I trust. Not by newspapers or other media sources.

I'm not sure what you mean here, as the first and second parts of your quote seem to contradict. In any case, all I've said here too I have also seen with my own eyes or been told by countless sources I trust--good friends and relatives.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 60):
Although it may not be all sections of the Roma community involved,

In begging and organized crime across Western Europe it is 99% Romanian or Romanian-descended Vlach Roma.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 60):
If it really is one subgroup then they are extraordinarily prolific, and pretty large in number given that such problems are present in large numbers of towns in countries across western Europe.

They are extraordinarily prolific. It's a shame. Having said all that, it's important to remember that even within this sub-group, there are MANY who want to live normal lives, get educations, and be integrated. So I reiterate that the way to stop begging rackets is not to make generalizations about Roma culture or any part of it even, but to smash begging rackets.

[Edited 2013-01-28 07:46:25]
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
RussianJet
Topic Author
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:47 pm

Quoting n229nw (Reply 61):
So I reiterate that the way to stop begging rackets is not to make generalizations about Roma culture or any part of it even, but to smash begging rackets.

Agreed.   
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
User avatar
falstaff
Posts: 5744
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:17 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:39 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 54):
take your cellphone

I have only ever heard of that when I travel to Europe. I don't see or hear about much of that in the USA. A buddy of mine is police detective in Halle, Germany and he tells me of all the pick pockets in the big cities. That kind of thing goes on in the USA, but it doesn't seem to go on to the extent it does in Europe. Here in Detroit if you try and pick pocket a guy you are likely to have a weapon drawn on you, so I bet that deters some pick pockets. Also here in Detroit there are people who might just shoot you if you walked up and stole their cell phone.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 56):
I however refused to give her a single cent, as I suspected that she was on drugs

I saw a girl begging with a gas can a couple of years ago. Some friends and I were walking into a restaurant and she approached us for gas money. I told her "you are going about this scam all wrong, you have to do it at the gas station or next to a car". She said she wasn't scamming and she ran out of gas, but she went on to say that she drove to the area and ran out of gas and couldn't get home. I asked her why she would drive so far, without gas money. She walked away and hassled other people for a while. She looked like a total drug addict too so I was pretty sure she didn't need gas, she probably didn't even have a car.

A few years ago I had a guy try that scam on me at the gas station. I was filling up gas cans for my garden equipment so I when this dude came and said " I need money for gas" I gave him one of my 2 gallon cans. he walked over to a truck and it looked like he was pouring it in. He brought me the can back and said thanks. When I picked up the can to put it in my truck I found it still had all the gas it. My guess is that wasn't his truck, because even if he wanted the money he surely would have taken the gas. Either it wasn't his truck or it was already full.

A couple of years ago some girl (fairly good looking) came up to me at a gas station in Dayton, Ohio, and begged for gas money. I gave her nothing, but I watched her boyfriend come out of the gas station with a bunch of smokes and two big bottles of pop. Nothing like begging for gas money, but paying for crap.

If you ever need a place to see some beggars come to the car wash at Vanborn and Beech-Daly Roads in Taylor, Michigan. You can't be there more than 15 minutes during nice weather without having some begger hit you up. I once had the opposite of a beggar hit me up. Some scruffy looking bum offered me $9 to take him to DTW. I asked him if he was going to a bum convention. He said that the begging was good near the rental car area. I didn't give him a ride, but I'm sure somebody took him there.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 58):
that many Gypsies ARE involved in crime

I never met any that weren't. They might not have been out robbing people with a knife or a gun, but they were ripping people off with home improvement and landscaping scams.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:14 pm

I save my money so I can give it away later. I don't spend it.

There are exceptions. In ~2010 a guy gave me a good rap (not slick, pretty inarticulate). I literally believed him. I gave him what I had ($10)! If you believe someone, you should give. How often does that happen? Almost never.  
 
LO231
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:55 pm

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:39 pm

Romas ruin it for those really in need...

As many of us in Europe, I don't carry cash on me, using my ATM card everywhere... Once Roma lady with a baby in her hands attracted my attention. it was not winter or cold, so I bought her bread, milk and some fruit.

She spit at me. She wanted money.

Why do I feel ashamed?
Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
 
nickh
Posts: 248
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:49 pm

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:04 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 54):
Can't sit down at a bloody cafe without having a group of four of them swarm you, shove a newspaper in your face, and try to take your cellphone. Hits foreigners the worst.

The same applies in India and other some other Asian countries. India's "Beggar Industry" is well organized and has a plentiful unemployed/uneducated workforce. Reference: the movie "Slumdog Millionaire".

I remember the few times when I travelled to India (Bombay/Mumbai) airport, and just as soon as I was cleared of the main terminals and waiting for a Taxi, the group of youngsters would scurry up and try to grab my bags, yelling "Sahib!, Sahib! etc. Sometimes the taxi drivers are in cahoots with the ganglords that control the beggar trade in India. Read the book "Maximum City - Bombay Lost and Found", it contains a good description of the underworld of gangs in Bombay/Mumbai.

The last time that I was there in India was in 1986, and I am sure that things have changed, but if I were to travel there again, I would ask my travel agent to book me a private car and a driver, to pick me up inside the terminal, so I do not have to deal with that again.

-Nick
"We all have wings, but some of us don't know why..."
 
[email protected]
Posts: 11681
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2000 2:03 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:47 am

I don't give money to beggars. However (if you can compare the two) I do donate money to charities such as UNICEF from time to time.

The last time I was approached by a beggar was while I was waiting for someone to arrive by boat down by the harbour. She came up to me asking for £2 for the bus fare. I had a feeling she had no intention of using the money on the bus, so I politely said no.
As the passengers disembarked the boat, she positioned herself so that everyone would have to walk past her, asking each one for £2 for the bus.
A man stopped and gave her £2, and then carried on. Despite getting the money she required, the girl kept asking every single person by the harbour for more money. Must have been an expensive bus fare.
She even came back to me asking for £2, at which point I just reminded her that she'd already asked me. At that point, her face turned from innocent into annoyed, as if it was my fault she had tried to con me twice.
A taxi driver who clearly knew what the girl was up to told her in a relatively nice tone "You shouldn't go around fooling people", at which point he was less politely told to f*** off.

The obvious problem is, when giving money to beggars, it can be hard to tell which ones actually need it, and if they intend to spend it on something that is actually important.

[email protected]
"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:36 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 67):
The obvious problem is, when giving money to beggars, it can be hard to tell which ones actually need it, and if they intend to spend it on something that is actually important.

A related scam comes to mind. There is a lady around me who sells candy for $5. Not only is she not licensed to sell candy, she lies saying she is collecting money for a charity.

She makes $500 a day using this scam!! Not only is this person not a charitable volunteer - she is swindling the public. People like that should be... what's a more polite form of the word "gassed..."
 
[email protected]
Posts: 11681
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2000 2:03 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:04 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 68):
what's a more polite form of the word "gassed..."

Farted upon.

Oh wait, you said more polite...

[email protected]
"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
 
4holer
Posts: 2776
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:47 am

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:31 pm

About 20 years ago, I was setting up a tailgater at old Three Rivers Stadium when a yellow eyed man approached and asked if I could spare some money. At the time, I always did, but when I reached for my wallet, I realized I'd left it in the car in the center console. I retrieved it and gave him a buck or 2. He thanked me repeatedly. After the game, I returned to the car to find (you guessed it) a smashed window, the console ripped apart, buncha other stuff gone... I guess he thought I ALWAYS store my wallet there. I haven't given a penny since that day.

Anyways...
How 'bout some Cher?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOSZwEwl_1Q
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26143
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?

Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:33 pm

It's interesting to see how many stories people have of being upset with how beggars acted when given money and have then used it as the reason to NEVER give money ever again.

Indeed such actions have upset me, but really all it did was teach me the lesson to presume the recipient will do whatever they want with the money, which can be anything from getting food to buying alcohol/drugs.

This means I tend to only rarely give money, but when I do, I don't get upset about anything the recipient does with it.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: akiss20, Pampot70 and 28 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos