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RussianJet
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UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:47 pm

And about time too.

It is high time that the UK becomes free to deal with those that threaten the country properly. Too many times have absurd decisions been taken to prioritise the rights of the individual over those of the country to live without fear and in security.

It is a real shame that it has come to this, but in the circumstances it is the right thing to do for the British people.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...K-European-Court-Human-Rights.html

Your thoughts?
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connies4ever
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:59 pm

This is a pre-emptive move by the Tories against the UK Independence Party, which poses a serious threat to them on the uber-right. While 2015 may seem a long ways away, in fact the manouevring for the election has already begun.

If I was either Germany or France, I'd seriously consider a resolution to kick Britain out of the EU entirely (which would mean Brits would lose the benefits of the Schengen Treaty, for one).
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fr8mech
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:26 pm

While I don't pretend to understand all the intricacies of of all this "human rights" claptrap, I support the UK's right to assert or get back some of its sovereignty.

While I disagree with attempts to silence "hate speech", nations should be allowed to define who or what they allow within their own borders.

I suspect there is more to this than the UK being "forced" to allow a few hate mongers to stay in the country.

I detest treaties that meddle in the internal affairs of sovereign nations.
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RussianJet
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:32 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
(which would mean Brits would lose the benefits of the Schengen Treaty, for one

The treaty of Schengen has nothing to do with Britain anyway, other than that when UK nationals are within the Schengen zone they face no borders, like absolutely everyone else regardless of nationality does. The treaty of Rome is probably more what you are thinking of, I presume, as subsequently amended by the treaty of Amsterdam. In any event, this has absolutely nothing at all to do with those free movement issues, so really not sure why you would suggest such a courst of action.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:33 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 2):
I detest treaties that meddle in the internal affairs of sovereign nations.

The UK voted of it's own volition to enter what was then the EEC. It can also vote to leave. If you vote to go in, then you have to accept a certain amount of "meddling". That's par for the course.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 2):
support the UK's right to assert or get back some of its sovereignty.

Of course. It's high time the British had this conversation and get the opportunity to express their will on the subject. However, debate on the EU in the UK is heavily influenced by a certain style of reporting in it's print media. I would hope that the reflection needed before a vote is taken will allow the British to consider all arguments.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
If I was either Germany or France, I'd seriously consider a resolution to kick Britain out of the EU entirely (which would mean Brits would lose the benefits of the Schengen Treaty, for one).

For one, the British are NOT going to like any inability to live in other EU states, with many of them owning property and living freely in Spain, France etc.
 
WestJet747
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:35 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Your thoughts?

I don't know much about the ECHR...but why are they allowed to tell countries who they can or can't deport? That should be entirely independent on the country who wishes to deport a convicted criminal. I don't blame Britain for wanted to leave.

I found it especially troubling that "judges do not even need to have any judicial experience in their homeland". That seems totally detached from the standards a body as important as the ECHR should have.

From my reading, it seems that the ECHR draws comparisons to the provincial-level human rights tribunals we have here in Canada. All were set-up with the goal of bringing gender, racial, etc. equality to their jurisdiction, but have since taken on any case that falls on their doorstep and will make ridiculous rulings that sometimes defy common sense because they are afraid to make a tough decision.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
If I was either Germany or France, I'd seriously consider a resolution to kick Britain out of the EU entirely (which would mean Brits would lose the benefits of the Schengen Treaty, for one).

I seriously hope you're kidding. That move would be a gross over-reaction and a serious threat to inter-European relations, politically and economically.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 2):
While I disagree with attempts to silence "hate speech"

The case given in the article is of a Jordanian citizen who spread "hate speech" while in Britain. If he isn't a British citizen, then he shouldn't expect the protections of a European body guarding his free speech rights. I absolutely agree with attempts to silence his hate speech.
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RussianJet
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:37 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 2):
I suspect there is more to this than the UK being "forced" to allow a few hate mongers to stay in the country.

For starters, it's way more than a few. Secondly, it also gravely affects our ability to deport serious criminals which is intolerable. The latter is probably the bigger issue, and such cases are many. Unfortunately, the judiciary in the UK have afforded far too much weight to the previous decisions of the European Court, and consequently exercise and absurdly liberal interpretation of the legislation - as per Theresa May's tirade against them a week or so ago. That problem is both the result of flawed law and a judiciary that is too independent - too independent in the sense that the public good is relegated to somewhere near the bottom of their considerations. That is perverted, and needs addressing urgently.
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fr8mech
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:42 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 4):
The UK voted of it's own volition to enter what was then the EEC. It can also vote to leave. If you vote to go in, then you have to accept a certain amount of "meddling". That's par for the course.


I agree. That's why I don't like these treaties.

All treaties take some sovereignty from the signatories, but when you allow internal meddling...IMHO, you give up too much.
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RussianJet
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:42 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 5):
If he isn't a British citizen, then he shouldn't expect the protections of a European body guarding his free speech rights. I absolutely agree with attempts to silence his hate speech.

The other side to this is that when you have solid evidence that this mere 'speech' actively incites and influences others to actually plot against the country and even commit acts of violence, it ceases to simply be 'speech'. We have cases of Brits being picked up fighting abroad, we have had home-grown bombers slaying people on the public transport systems, and we have as recently as the last couple of weeks seen groups convicted of plotting terrorist acts that were not far from execution. No, these people need dealing with - it's not simply a free speech issue.
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fr8mech
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:00 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 5):
The case given in the article is of a Jordanian citizen who spread "hate speech" while in Britain. If he isn't a British citizen, then he shouldn't expect the protections of a European body guarding his free speech rights. I absolutely agree with attempts to silence his hate speech.


I view it through the prism of our First Amendment. Hate speech, in of itself, should not be used as a motive for deporting anyone, regardless of citizenship. But, the UK is the UK and they should be allowed to boot whomever they want out of their country.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 6):
it also gravely affects our ability to deport serious criminals which is intolerable


That is a problem. I'm of the opinion, that ANY foreign citizen that is convicted of a felony be immediately deported to his home country.
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OA260
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:12 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
And about time too.

Here here . The sooner they get out of this the better.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 4):
For one, the British are NOT going to like any inability to live in other EU states, with many of them owning property and living freely in Spain, France etc.

And the Irish would be shitting themselves if the UK did leave as it creates huge consequences with the border they share with the UK. What about the Irish/Spanish/Germans/French living and owning property in the UK? Just because you leave the ECHR does not mean you suddenly need visas for member states.

The Irish government has expressed concern already. So the UK can still retain important powers like the power to return terrorists to the Middle East rather than have them protected by some EU human rights law and yet still be in the EU .

Times have changed and the EU and laws should too. The human rights laws are protecting the terrorists and punishing the victims.
 
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:16 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
This is a pre-emptive move by the Tories against the UK Independence Party, which poses a serious threat to them on the uber-right.

There's nothing uber right about UKIP. They're right, but the Tories are complete pansies now anyway, they're too scared of their own image and they're letting the country down quite frankly. We don't need their half measures we need far more drastic changes and their lack of courage is leaving them widely open to criticism and handing Labour an open goal. And if Labour get back in then that's it, it's all over. It's probably all over anyway but it's definitely over if the 2 Eds get their hands on the steering wheel.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 4):
For one, the British are NOT going to like any inability to live in other EU states, with many of them owning property and living freely in Spain, France etc.

I don't see why it had to be a choice of completely open borders or absolutely no immigration. I seriously doubt France or Spain will not allow Brits to live abroad and vice versa, let's just keep the numbers sensible.
 
RussianJet
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:21 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):

And the Irish would be shitting themselves if the UK did leave as it creates huge consequences with the border they share with the UK. What about the Irish/Spanish/Germans/French living and owning property in the UK? Just because you leave the ECHR does not mean you suddenly need visas for member states.

Totally. I have no idea why anyone needs to mix the ECHR up with anything to do with the customs union and free movement issues. I am staunchly pro Europe in terms of free movement and a broad political affiliation, but it should be very broad and certainly not result in the undermining of national law and the course of natural justice. It seems only sensible to pull out, as it is simply not working as it should. But, there is absolutely no reason for the other aspects of European integration to be affected. It may be that other countries are more able to deal with the effects of the ECHR in terms of how their national law and judiciary relate to it, but I don't know much about that. It just isn't functioning in the interests of British society though, so why on earth should that just be ignored?
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connies4ever
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:54 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 5):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
If I was either Germany or France, I'd seriously consider a resolution to kick Britain out of the EU entirely (which would mean Brits would lose the benefits of the Schengen Treaty, for one).

I seriously hope you're kidding. That move would be a gross over-reaction and a serious threat to inter-European relations, politically and economically.


Britain voted decades ago to join the (then) EEC. In so voting they voluntarily accepted a lot of conditions that were part and parcel of membership. Ever since then they've wanted special exemptions on this and that. If I were repesenting a continental partner in the EU, I'd send a rocket over to the FO and simply say "Make up your bloody mind. If you want out, then piss off." And I come from an English family.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
Hate speech, in of itself, should not be used as a motive for deporting anyone, regardless of citizenship.

Unless, of course, the speaker is Piers Morgan.  
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OA260
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:02 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 13):
Britain voted decades ago to join the (then) EEC. In so voting they voluntarily accepted a lot of conditions that were part and parcel of membership. Ever since then they've wanted special exemptions on this and that. If I were repesenting a continental partner in the EU, I'd send a rocket over to the FO and simply say "Make up your bloody mind. If you want out, then piss off." And I come from an English family.

But remember when they signed up for it the purpose was a different agenda. Over the years its become a rail road to a United States of Europe. Plenty of people all over Europe who are wondering how it all changed from the club they signed up to.

Here in Ireland the government black mailed and scared the people into voting yes for the Lisbon treaty. The Irish voted no so they made them vote again and threatened them with all sorts of things.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:04 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 13):
Unless, of course, the speaker is Piers Morgan.

If you do a search, you'll find that I am very consistent on this point.
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RussianJet
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:10 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 13):
Britain voted decades ago to join the (then) EEC. In so voting they voluntarily accepted a lot of conditions that were part and parcel of membership. Ever since then they've wanted special exemptions on this and that. If I were repesenting a continental partner in the EU, I'd send a rocket over to the FO and simply say "Make up your bloody mind. If you want out, then piss off." And I come from an English family.

But you're mixing things up illogically here. The ECHR is not the EEC, is not the EU, is not anything to do with those. It counts Russia and Turkey, amongst many other non-EEC countries, as parties to it, and in no way, shape or form is a condition of being in the EU/EEA/EEC or anything else.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:54 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 13):
Britain voted decades ago to join the (then) EEC. In so voting they voluntarily accepted a lot of conditions that were part and parcel of membership. Ever since then they've wanted special exemptions on this and that. If I were repesenting a continental partner in the EU, I'd send a rocket over to the FO and simply say "Make up your bloody mind. If you want out, then piss off." And I come from an English family.

The EEC has changed completely since 1975 to something barely recognisable. I very much doubt the people would have voted for it had they known what it would become.

Remember the British public don't have visibility into the benefits of the EU other than visa-free travel. The only thing they can see is the headlines saying things like "Islamist Nutcase cannot be deported because of the ECHR". Not altogether surprising then that they are rather Europhobic.
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RussianJet
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:04 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 17):
The only thing they can see is the headlines saying things like "Islamist Nutcase cannot be deported because of the ECHR". Not altogether surprising then that they are rather Europhobic.

That may be true for some, but give at least some of the British public some credit. I know many people who can quite easily see past a tabloid headline, but the reality is that when you dig about a bit there are in fact a great many real cases one can find where people, be they terrorism suspects or criminals, should really have been deported for the public good. The realisation that something is wrong with that does not necessarily equate to Europhobia. I, for example, am not a Europhobe. I am, however, totally intolerant of things that harm us as a country, and am not prepared to just accept things like the ECHR simply because they've been around for a while and everyone else is part of it.
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connies4ever
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:27 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 17):
Not altogether surprising then that they are rather Europhobic.

They're Europhobic because they're on an island - at least, that's an important psychological issue. That behaviour is common the world over. Anyone from off the island is one of "them", to be automatically distrusted. Happens here in Canada, Prince Edward Islanders and Newfies tend to be somewhat stand-offish w.r.t. those "from away". Unless there's a bottle of rum nearby

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 16):
But you're mixing things up illogically here. The ECHR is not the EEC, is not the EU, is not anything to do with those. It counts Russia and Turkey, amongst many other non-EEC countries, as parties to it, and in no way, shape or form is a condition of being in the EU/EEA/EEC or anything else.

I'm very clear about the ECHR and the EU. ECHR is a creature of the Council of Europe, which actually predates the EEC/EU. The Court itself came along a little later. The point I am trying to make is that with membership in a codified entity, certain rules apply. If you don't like them, leave. Britain is a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights, created by the CoE, therefore one expects Britain to adhere to same.

It is also worth noting the ECHR rulings are not necessarily binding, but may be advisory. I am by no means familiar with the case in question, so I don't know if it is one or the other.

As for Russia being a member of the CoE and hence a party to the convention on human rights, do you seriously expect Mr Putin to grab his ankles based on a court ruling ?
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:34 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 8):
No, these people need dealing with - it's not simply a free speech issue.

I agree completely, when you have people who preach and incite for the destruction of your country as you know it, with all the ensuing death and destruction that they so love, it is time to deal with them.
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RussianJet
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:41 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 19):
The point I am trying to make is that with membership in a codified entity, certain rules apply. If you don't like them, leave. Britain is a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights, created by the CoE, therefore one expects Britain to adhere to same.

Right, hence the desire to leave. It's just that the suggestions that somehow if Britain leaves the ECHR then we should be booted out of the EU or whatever, are nonsensical.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 19):
As for Russia being a member of the CoE and hence a party to the convention on human rights, do you seriously expect Mr Putin to grab his ankles based on a court ruling ?

Absolutely not, and yet the UK is expected to abide by everything to the letter. Kind of makes a mockery of the whole thing, doesn't it?
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TheCommodore
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:41 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 19):
They're Europhobic because they're on an island - at least, that's an important psychological issue.

I'd argue that's its not so much "psychological" but fact.

The UK has never regarded its self as Europe/European. They have always been separate, and many there hope that it will remain that way.
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Aesma
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:47 pm

It's really a victory for the tabloids, not the British people. The UK allowing hate speech by radical Muslims has nothing to do with the ECHR, France expels those preachers every day, or better doesn't allow their entry. It's really the British people/politicians that have a laid back approach about all this, allowing immigrants to live as in their own country, by their own rules. I mean, special hospital burkas ? Only in the UK.

In many cases the ECHR only applies the laws on the books of each country, it's up to you to change your laws. For example gay marriage was just voted in France, and it allows adoption for same-sex couples. Some wanted a marriage without adoption. Well, that wouldn't have passed the ECHR because it would be discriminatory, making it a "second-rate marriage". But not having gay marriage to begin with didn't cause any trouble. A solution could have been to call it something else than marriage (but the majority in power and of the people are for a real marriage).

As for allowing prisoners to vote, what's the big deal ? As long as their conviction is not related to electoral laws/frauds, I don't see why they shouldn't vote, or why it matters in the least anyway. I'm sure most prisoners don't care and in fact have never voted in their life.

As for the French view on the UK in the EU, well, we were always against it. In reality it's the US that pushed their "ally" on us to pervert the EU.

The German conservatives however want to keep Britain as a balancing force against us and all of Southern Europe. Keep this up and there won't be enough Europeans to want to stay in that EU for it to still exist.

The British bailing out would be a blessing for all in my opinion. No more English language newspaper harping about the EU every other day. People both in Britain and outside could see what is really in the EU's power and what has nothing to do with it.
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connies4ever
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:48 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
The UK has never regarded its self as Europe/European. They have always been separate, and many there hope that it will remain that way.

Based on the recent announcement by Ms May and the probably well-justified fear of the UKIP by the Tories, they may well achieve their wish to leave. It would be very ironic if the outcome of the Europhobe movement would be to elect Labour, who are fairly Eurofriendly.
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RussianJet
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):
It's really a victory for the tabloids, not the British people. The UK allowing hate speech by radical Muslims has nothing to do with the ECHR, France expels those preachers every day, or better doesn't allow their entry. It's really the British people/politicians that have a laid back approach about all this, allowing immigrants to live as in their own country, by their own rules. I mean, special hospital burkas ? Only in the UK.

Wrong. It does, because of how it interacts with domestic law.

It's more a case of the judiciary strictly interpreting and adhering to judgements, resulting in numerous genuine cases of the type you refer to in the tabloids. Worse, though, and far more numerous than the terrorist cases, is the absurd regularity with which criminals use family life grounds to avoid deportation from the UK. This is real, and you do a disservice to the British public by assuming that it is simply based on uproar at the occasional headline. Talk to people working in related fields here in the UK, and you'll soon realise the extent of the issue. Now, you might well say that the solution is therefore to reform British law and the way the judiciary works, but frankly that would be an almost unsurmountable obstacle, and certainly not one that could be resolved within several decades. I guess that more than anything this is a case of one size not fitting all. On some of your other points about tougher controls and less capitulation then fine, you have something there alright.
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Aesma
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:11 pm

So you mean keeping broken laws is fine as long as nobody forces the country to actually enforce them ? Well, that's a road to disaster in my opinion.
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RussianJet
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:13 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 26):
So you mean keeping broken laws is fine as long as nobody forces the country to actually enforce them ?

I'm really not sure what you mean by that interpretation. Can you explain please?
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OA260
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:11 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):
No more English language newspaper harping about the EU every other day.

English is about to become the langauge of the EU . Hope the French are ready for it  
 
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:34 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
That may be true for some, but give at least some of the British public some credit. I know many people who can quite easily see past a tabloid headline, but the reality is that when you dig about a bit there are in fact a great many real cases one can find where people, be they terrorism suspects or criminals, should really have been deported for the public good.

It's to do with basic human rights and trying to set a better example. Just like EU member states can't extradite someone to the US if they risk the death penalty, they can't extradite someone who faces the use of torture.
 
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:48 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
but the reality is that when you dig about a bit there are in fact a great many real cases one can find where people, be they terrorism suspects or criminals, should really have been deported for the public good.

There are, but let's be honest it's very rare. 97% of cases since 1959 have found in in favor of the UK courts; only 3% of cases have resulted in judgments.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 19):
They're Europhobic because they're on an island - at least, that's an important psychological issue.

As TheCommodore says, not psychological, it's just a geographical fact. Water is a barrier to mingling of cultures, and Britain really is no more a part of Europe than Iceland is in many ways.
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RussianJet
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:57 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 30):
There are, but let's be honest it's very rare. 97% of cases since 1959 have found in in favor of the UK courts; only 3% of cases have resulted in judgments.

The impact is felt an awful lot more than your figures suggest, as judges interpret your rare judgements into their everyday decisions made under domestic law. The ECHR as a whole, and its effects in the UK, is not just about the cases that actually make it to being heard in the European Court. So actually no, human rights claims are actually very common when any kind of adverse criminal or immigration decision is taken against individuals. It is widely exploited by lawyers who know full well that judges fall over themselves to make the right to private and family life, which is a qualified right, into an absolute one.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:14 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 31):
The impact is felt an awful lot more than your figures suggest, as judges interpret your rare judgements into their everyday decisions made under domestic law.

Bit of a leap. Can you give some examples?
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:21 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 32):
Bit of a leap. Can you give some examples?

Not a leap at all.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/de.../asylum-ruling-fury-rights-cameron

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...an-rights-that-protect-killer.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...e-new-human-rights-guidelines.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...laiming-breaches-human-rights.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...iminals-we-dont-try-to-deport.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...iminals-who-evade-deportation.html

These found after a very cursory search. There are bundles of other examples.

Admittedly the UK suffers a bit of a mish-mash because of the Human Rights Act, which was enacted basically to ensure that the ECHR was enacted fully into British Law, but which has undoubtedly helped make things worse and make it easier for people to bring claims without going all the way to Strasbourg. But, essentially, these are all cases where judges or authorities have granted claims in the knowledge that they would be likely to succeed if they went all the way.

[Edited 2013-03-03 18:22:24]
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:16 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 33):
Admittedly the UK suffers a bit of a mish-mash because of the Human Rights Act, which was enacted basically to ensure that the ECHR was enacted fully into British Law,

Exactly. In other words the Human Rights Act saves the cost of going all the way to the European Court by synchronizing ECHR and British law. The judges are only enacting the law as enacted by parliament, they're not "interpret (ing) your rare judgements into their everyday decisions made under domestic law". It's simply practicality (and in some cases enacting laws Britain should have had years ago).

These cases are all at worst mild inconveniences for the UK. In exchange for which you get a last bastion of protection against the state in which you live. Of course if you only Google for the results you disagree with, then such a court may seem unnecessary.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:18 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 34):
Exactly. In other words the Human Rights Act saves the cost of going all the way to the European Court by synchronizing ECHR and British law. The judges are only enacting the law as enacted by parliament, they're not "interpret (ing) your rare judgements into their everyday decisions made under domestic law". It's simply practicality (and in some cases enacting laws Britain should have had years ago).

Actually, it's both. Judgements are certainly taken into account. The HRA and the ECHR are pretty inextricably linked.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 34):
These cases are all at worst mild inconveniences for the UK

First of all, I don't agree with that. Many of these cases involve the most serious kinds of crimes. People being raped and killed is not by any stretch a mild inconvenience. Secondly, there are many other cases that are slightly less serious, but many in number and less likely to make the press. Those with working knowledge of this certainly would not say it's a mild inconvenience, instead making plain that this is a system being regularly abused by those who do not have a right to stay, or deserve to stay in the country. A google search is the very tip of the iceberg.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:58 pm

I'm sorry to say that the UK government would benefit from more external observation and not less.

We still need to have a credible body to stop our MPs becoming even more criminal (let's not forget the expenses scams so quickly and how rife it was).

I wonder how minority political factions would be dealt with if the UK courts didn't have an eye kept on them.

Governments (courts as they really are the same thing) need to be monitored or else you end up with a dictatorship. We are already on the way to secret courts. That is not healthy in what should be a transparent democracy.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:10 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 36):
Governments (courts as they really are the same thing)

I have a real problem with this statement. The judiciary in this country are completely independent, and as you may have seen recently with Theresa May's statements about them completely ignoring policy and guidance. The reality is that government and courts in this country are not the same thing at all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-to-end-human-rights-farce.html

And it's not just limited to this issue. There have been many issues around judges not taking sufficient notice of quite tightly-defined sentencing guidelines too, many instances of which have been reported widely in the press. On one hand it's a very good thing that judges are independent of politics, but it seems to have gone too far - they should not be ignoring policy and law.

Quoting babybus (Reply 36):
I'm sorry to say that the UK government would benefit from more external observation and not less.

In some respects you may be quite right, but on this specific issue it's working against our national interests. That's not right.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 35):
Actually, it's both. Judgements are certainly taken into account. The HRA and the ECHR are pretty inextricably linked

Well of course- the HRA was based on the ECHR. The judges are basing their decisions on the HRA though, not on potential decisions by the ECHR. You're implying judicial bias is being tainted by the ECHR which of course isn't the case; they are interpreting British law. You just don't happen to agree with those laws.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 35):
First of all, I don't agree with that. Many of these cases involve the most serious kinds of crimes. People being raped and killed is not by any stretch a mild inconvenience.

That's not the issue though is it. Those who commit crimes are still imprisoned (assuming they are convicted)- they just aren't deported. That's why it's a mild (primarily financial) inconvenience.

FWIW I do personally agree that if you are convicted of a serious crime you should be deported, no matter what the consequences in your home country. However it's just not a particularly serious problem unless you read the Mail and don't understand the benefits of the ECHR, or what message it sends to those countries where judgment rates are far higher by leaving.

On balance, this is a decision borne out of pandering to the slavering masses. Next step the Death Penalty will be back.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:38 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 38):
the HRA was based on the ECHR. The judges are basing their decisions on the HRA though, not on potential decisions by the ECHR.

It wasn't just based on the European Convention, it was created pretty much solely to ensure that the European Convention was adhered to. It is essentially the UK's executive arm of the Convention.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 38):
You're implying judicial bias is being tainted by the ECHR which of course isn't the case; they are interpreting British law.

They are interpreting British law in relation to the obligations created by the convention. You can't just separate one from the other.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 38):
You just don't happen to agree with those laws.

I agree with many of the principles of the law, but it is far to broad in its definitions which results in far too much liberal interpretation. It's not as simple as just saying that I don't like the laws. Again, experience shows it's not working in our interests.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 38):
they just aren't deported. That's why it's a mild (primarily financial) inconvenience.

Well, I don't think that keeping criminals here who we should be able to deport is a mild issue. We have enough home-grown ones to deal with as it is. Also, as I mentioned before, this is not just about criminal issues. It also applies to the undermining of immigration law amongst other things.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 38):
On balance, this is a decision borne out of pandering to the slavering masses.

It really is not just that. It's also about years and years of various authorities here being prevented from doing the right thing, be it the Immigration authorities, the Police or whoever. It's not just about the headlines, it's about actually very carefully considered experience from those having to deal with the fall-out of this incredibly vague legal situation.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:33 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
Again, experience shows it's not working in our interests.

I think most of our disagreement boils down to this. I haven't seen any evidence other than a few criminals who can't be deported. That doesn't mean it isn't working in your interests. Perhaps not the government's interest, or the police's interest, but certainly the public's interest.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
results in far too much liberal interpretation
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
Again, experience shows it's not working in our interests.
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
It also applies to the undermining of immigration law amongst other things.
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
It's also about years and years of various authorities here being prevented from doing the right thing,
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
it's about actually very carefully considered experience from those having to deal with the fall-out of this incredibly vague legal situation.

This is all very nebulous. What "liberal interpretation"? What "experience"? How does it apply to "undermining of immigration law"? What is the "right thing"? What "fall-out"?

I'm still not at all convinced that this isn't alarmism based on a few tabloid scare stories. A way to convince a subset of the population dismayed at Britain's diminishing importance in the world by convincing them that Britain can still do exactly as it chooses. I fear though that that ship sailed a long time ago.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:59 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 40):
A way to convince a subset of the population dismayed at Britain's diminishing importance in the world by convincing them that Britain can still do exactly as it chooses. I fear though that that ship sailed a long time ago.

I think that's pretty unfair, and there's no indication that this is about Britain's standing in the world. If anything, it is probably a course of action that the government knows will lead to some pretty serious flack being taken on the international stage. For the government to be considering such a serious step, do you really think that it is just about a few headlines? I can understand where that comes from, given the poor standards set in many parts of the UK press, but I think you need to give the public and even the government at least a tiny bit of credit here.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 40):
What "experience"

The day-to-day experience of the authorities dealing with these cases, the results from the courts, all feeding up to the government, informing and leading to this radical step under discussion. Again, I really don't think the government are so stupid as to consider this move without some serious grounds to do so. Generally speaking, it's probably fair to assume that for the numerous instances of serious criminals that are in the press, there are a hell of a lot more other day-to-day cases that don't get reported to the public. While these may not necessarily be of the same magnitude, they can still amount to a considerable frustration of the rule of law. I appreciate it's difficult to fully get to grips with this here, because clearly no serving Police or other law-enforcement officers can start shouting about their specific experiences with this here.

It's very easy to just point to the red press and say 'well there's your reason' and think it's all just so obvious, but is it really such a leap of faith to think that maybe, just maybe there's a lot more to this very serious decision than you might first think?
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:37 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 41):
I think that's pretty unfair, and there's no indication that this is about Britain's standing in the world.

Well, given some of the vacuous anti-EU arguments made by the press I'd be inclined to disagree. Most people who read the Mail or the Telegraph do form many of their opinions from what's inside. Like every paper they would go bust very quickly if they didn't reflect the attitudes of its readership. Telegraph readers still mourn the loss of the Empire.....

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 41):
For the government to be considering such a serious step, do you really think that it is just about a few headlines?

Absolutely. I have never known a British government which panders to the press as much as this one. How many U-turns have we seen in the past few years? It amazes me you put so much blind faith in a party who feel the need to recount choice anecdotes like whether they had a small or large pasty the previous week, all to justify an unpopular policy which they haven't even got the balls to go through with.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 41):
I can understand where that comes from, given the poor standards set in many parts of the UK press

And government. Surely after the NewsCorp scandal you must realize how close the government, press and police have become in the UK?

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 41):
Generally speaking, it's probably fair to assume that for the numerous instances of serious criminals that are in the press, there are a hell of a lot more other day-to-day cases that don't get reported to the public.

Probably- in which case they're hardly worth bothering about, hence the reason why even the press don't bother with them. I couldn't care less if somebody isn't deported for non-violent crime- there are more important things to worry about. Do you have any figures to show how many people convicted of serious (or non-serious) crimes cannot be deported due to HRA or ECHR legislation?

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 41):
While these may not necessarily be of the same magnitude, they can still amount to a considerable frustration of the rule of law.

The rule of what (or whose) law? Who is responsible for the laws that lead to these decisions you don't like? How would pulling out of the ECHR change them?

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 41):
It's very easy to just point to the red press and say 'well there's your reason' and think it's all just so obvious, but is it really such a leap of faith to think that maybe, just maybe there's a lot more to this very serious decision than you might first think?

No, but it is just that- a leap of faith. And policy decisions of this magnitude need to have a basis in something stronger than that.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:57 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 42):
Well, given some of the vacuous anti-EU arguments made by the press I'd be inclined to disagree. Most people who read the Mail or the Telegraph do form many of their opinions from what's inside. Like every paper they would go bust very quickly if they didn't reflect the attitudes of its readership. Telegraph readers still mourn the loss of the Empire.....

Judging by the lowest common denominator is really not always helpful or accurate though. It's worth noting, apart from anything else, that these matters have featured in pretty much all sections of the media here. Not just the preserve of the Daily Mail reader.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 42):
It amazes me you put so much blind faith in a party who feel the need to recount choice anecdotes like whether they had a small or large pasty the previous week, all to justify an unpopular policy which they haven't even got the balls to go through with.

I don't put any blind faith in this government, and I do not support them on the whole. On this particular issue though, I know this is the right way to go. That is why I speak up for them here.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 42):
Probably- in which case they're hardly worth bothering about, hence the reason why even the press don't bother with them

That's pretty strange logic. The press don't get to hear about everything for starters.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 42):
And government. Surely after the NewsCorp scandal you must realize how close the government, press and police have become in the UK?

Sure, but to be fair that's actually being dealt with.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 42):
The rule of what (or whose) law?

British law, in Britain - obviously.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 42):
Do you have any figures to show how many people convicted of serious (or non-serious) crimes cannot be deported due to HRA or ECHR legislation?

Public domain figures are not that readily available. But, here is a piece that says that from 2011-2012 half of all foreign criminals who avoided deportation did so under just one article of human rights - family life.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...tion-on-family-rights-grounds.html
I personally feel it's worth having 177-odd fewer serious criminals here.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:09 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43):
Judging by the lowest common denominator is really not always helpful or accurate though. It's worth noting, apart from anything else, that these matters have featured in pretty much all sections of the media here. Not just the preserve of the Daily Mail reader.

Yes, but the WAY they are reported is substantially different. Look at the language and compare it. It's all "bonkers Eurocrats are forcing Britain to do X". And don't think for a second the Mail is the lowest common denominator- it goes far lower than that. There's a reason it is known as the paper for "Middle Englanders"; that's not a geographical term these days.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43):
That's pretty strange logic. The press don't get to hear about everything for starters.

If the press thought there was a story, they would print it. This stuff is public record. If even the Mail can't be arsed to print it it probably isn't all that scary to be honest.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43):
Sure, but to be fair that's actually being dealt with.

   I somehow doubt that.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43):
British law, in Britain - obviously.

But these rulings are not "frustrating the rule of law" because they ARE the law. As you yourself said, the HRA enshrines these laws into British law, and that isn't likely to change despite this charade.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43):
I personally feel it's worth having 177-odd fewer serious criminals here.

Wow- that's even fewer than I thought. 177? Really? Out of 60 million people?
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:18 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 44):
If the press thought there was a story, they would print it. This stuff is public record

Far from all of it is.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 44):
But these rulings are not "frustrating the rule of law" because they ARE the law. As you yourself said, the HRA enshrines these laws into British law, and that isn't likely to change despite this charade.

Yes and no. The are vaguely-defined legal principles that throw spokes in the application of a host of other laws and their application.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 44):
Really? Out of 60 million people?

Bear in mind they are at the serious end of the spectrum. You don't get deported for nicking sweeties from the shop. One serious criminal more than we have to keep is one too many.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:04 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 45):
Far from all of it is.

Which parts aren't? Criminal trials and immigration hearings certainly are, except in the cases of minors.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 45):
Yes and no. The are vaguely-defined legal principles that throw spokes in the application of a host of other laws and their application.

Give me some examples. Again, this is a very nebulous claim.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 45):
Bear in mind they are at the serious end of the spectrum. You don't get deported for nicking sweeties from the shop.

But would you concede that they are not all murderers and rapists either? You only need a sentence of 12 months to be considered for deportation, and many of these are not violent offenders.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 45):
One serious criminal more than we have to keep is one too many.

We have 90,000 prisoners and countless more - letting another 177 stay after they have served their time is not a good enough reason for abandoning the protection the ECHR affords, especially when withdrawing from the ECHR will make no practical difference in most of these cases.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:47 am

Something needs to change...

A prisoner used article 8 of the convention, (a right to family life) so his partner could be artificially inseminted.

He then used the same article to be released from prison early so he could look after the child.


And another...

In 2007 murderer Kirk Dickson won the right to father a child by artificial insemination after a ruling by the European Court of Human Rights. (Despite being rejected every court within the UK)
Ministers fought the case, arguing that losing the opportunity to have children was an inevitable result of being jailed, and that allowing access to fertility treatment would damage public trust in the prison system.
They also argued any child born to a parent who is absent for a long time while in jail could suffer as a result.


The madness continues

Article 8, the right to a family life, has repeatedly been used by foreign criminals to avoid deportation from the UK. Last year more than 200 foreign prisoners, including killers, used it to stay in the country.
The latest case follows fury over the attempt by the European Court of Human Rights to force ministers to give prisoners the right to vote, following a case brought by axe killer John Hirst in 2004.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:43 am

Again, you never hear about this in France, so, are our prisoners too stupid to try to get to the ECHR ? In fact I know they aren't since we lose cases too, but they're about the sad state of our prisons, not letting prisoners have children (they can vote, though, as far as I know). In fact you can expect the kind of young lawyers most prisoners get to be all over a plan to make a name for themselves.
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RE: UK To Leave Echr

Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:15 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 48):

Something needs to happen, too many stupid rulings are happening and if you registered a complaint today with the ECHR, then it won't be heard until 2016, because of the backlog of cases.

Even if we didn't leave the ECHR, I would like to see our own supreme court judgement's overrule anything that comes out of Strasbourg.

I believe it would be safe as our judiciary is independent as doesn't bow down to Govt pressure.
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