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PHX787
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Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 4:33 pm

Hey guys, I recently just finished thinking about this stuff, and how the GOP can improve their image within the USA, and one of the biggest things that concerns me is their stance on gay marriage.
Personally, I support one's right to marry whoever they damn well please....because once you get married, it's game over, folks 

But in all seriousness, Ive compiled a few reasons why the reps should get behind Sen. Portman (R-Ohio) who recently reversed his beliefs on gay marriage after his son came out.
--let me throw an anecdote here before i begin: Some have criticized Mr. Portman for bandwagoning ...seriously? You want people to believe in gay marriage but accuse them of believing for the wrong reasons? Lets not be hypocritical here. Sen. Portman supports gay marriage because he knows first-hand that his son deserves the same rights as him and his wife. There really need not be any more explanations than that.
OK onward with my list here:
1) Most republicans believe in a hands-off style government.....shouldn't that include hands off personal matters (such as marriage?)

2) Once gay marriages are recognized, then that family will be paying lower tax rates. Republicans support low tax rates.

3) A growing number of republicans in congress actually do support gay marriage but are afraid of what their peers would say, so essentially they are "in the closet" about their support of gay marriage....dear "in the closet" supporter- others believe in marriage equality too, you know!

4) I read a poll that said somewhere believe 70% and 90% of people between the ages of 18 and 30 believe in marriage equality, with some reports stating that support for marriage equality is making huge inroads in our next generation. Once some of these people reach voting age, the GOP would be leaving a huge number of these people out.

5) The Libertarian movement (which is hands-off across the boart politics) is gaining in popularity.

6) It will make the media shut up for once   

Thoughts? Additions?
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AeroWesty
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 4:45 pm

"Whenever you don't understand something, follow the money." --Deep Throat

Wonkette: Super-Rich Republicans Have Become Totally Selfless And Enlightened About The Whole Gay Marriage Deal

Quote:
If you’re as old as we are, and have had as much exposure to Reg’lar ‘Murica as we have, you are probably still a bit dizzied at the pace at which the majority of Americans went from “Ew! Gheys!” to “Ah, ain’t that a cute lesbian couple!” We close our eyes, breathe deeply and meditate on this nice trend of niceness whenever someone talks about gun violence, or obesity, or “creation science.”

This epidemic of tolerance bleeding toward acceptance (eventually to wind up at Celebration) is not isolated to the Lieberals and Mushy Middle any more, no, sir! Republicans with gay children no longer feel compelled to hide them away in their gay closets, but are emboldened to endorse their civil and human rights, just as if they were regular human beings.
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 4:51 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
1) Most republicans believe in a hands-off style government.....shouldn't that include hands off personal matters (such as marriage?)

They only believe in that when it comes to keeping their money.

If they were they wouldn't be a war on drugs, they would preach States rights in all cases not just theirs, contraception wouldn't be made harder to get, the abortion laws would remain the same, workers wouldn't be punished for trying to collectively bargain (To clarify I understand why the right hates unions but they should acknowledge the legal process of the formation of a union), and finally they would take the Ron Paul approach to foreign policy and not go on TV every Sunday and state the case why Obama has to intervene in Syria.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
3) A growing number of republicans in congress actually do support gay marriage but are afraid of what their peers would say, so essentially they are "in the closet" about their support of gay marriage....dear "in the closet" supporter- others believe in marriage equality too, you know!

They are afraid of getting primaried by an opponent who is getting funded from money that comes from another state. Such as the case when the Mormon church spend $20 million to pass Prop 8 which was voted on in California.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
5) The Libertarian movement (which is hands-off across the boart politics) is gaining in popularity.

  

Today's Libertarians are yesterday's republicans.
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Thoughts? Additions?

The GOP has a tight rope to walk here. Becoming more socially liberal, as this would be, will open them up for attacks from the Religious Right base that they depend on. Arguments could be made that the Religious right has nowhere else to go, but it is a major player, and they as a base do not "accept" gay marriage.

For fiscal conservatives, it is a win win, and it would arguably help to bring some moderates back into the fold.

The issue with the Religious right and Tea Party ideals however is why I still expect an explosion of the "Big Tent" into 2 distinct parties should the GOP try to move to the left on social issues.
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 5:25 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Most republicans believe in a hands-off style government.....shouldn't that include hands off personal matters (such as marriage?)

They want to make government just small enough to fit into our bedrooms...
 
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vikkyvik
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 6:30 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Some have criticized Mr. Portman for bandwagoning ...seriously?

Seriously.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
You want people to believe in gay marriage but accuse them of believing for the wrong reasons?

I don't accuse him of believing for the wrong reasons. Hell, I'm glad that he supports gay marriage. But what I find difficult to fathom is that his beliefs suddenly changed when his son came out. My feeling is that either he believed in gay marriage all along, but was too chicken to say anything, or he's trying to show he supports his son and appease the "support your family" types.

Either way, if I were his son (and gay), I'd be looking at him, thinking, "um, dad, thanks, but what the hell?"

I guess, though, that he could have gone through a personal "crisis of belief" or whatever when his son came out, and finally decided he had to support it. But I dunno....

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Lets not be hypocritical here. Sen. Portman supports gay marriage because he knows first-hand that his son deserves the same rights as him and his wife. There really need not be any more explanations than that.

Need be? No. But it might do him well. What about everyone else's son, or daughter, or brother, or cousin, or friend, or what-have-you? Because YOUR son came out, it's suddenly OK, but when it was just other people's families, you didn't feel the need to support it?

Don't get me wrong - I think it's good he supports gay marriage.

Quoting moose135 (Reply 4):

They want to make government just small enough to fit into our bedrooms...

I like it....
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 7:26 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 5):
But what I find difficult to fathom is that his beliefs suddenly changed when his son came out. My feeling is that either he believed in gay marriage all along, but was too chicken to say anything, or he's trying to show he supports his son and appease the "support your family" types.

Either way, if I were his son (and gay), I'd be looking at him, thinking, "um, dad, thanks, but what the hell?"

I guess, though, that he could have gone through a personal "crisis of belief" or whatever when his son came out, and finally decided he had to support it. But I dunno....


So may I ask how do you think President Obama changed his mind?? Or President Clinton?

It's funny a republican changes his mind and its a what the hell now you do it. Obviously might be for the wrong reasons. The last two democratic presidents change their beliefs and its praise and he's on our side like he was with us the whole time dippidy do da day...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6K9dS9wl7U&sns=em
I understand he was for civil unions but his beliefs did just change out of no where too. And Clinton signed DOMA.

Anyway I'm a Republican and I am all for gay marriage.
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 7:53 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
So may I ask how do you think President Obama changed his mind?? Or President Clinton?

You may, and I would say the same thing, minus whatever I wrote about his son, since that wouldn't apply to Clinton or Obama.

Anyway....
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 7:58 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
And Clinton signed DOMA.

That was almost 20 years ago. Someone can't evolve over a 20 year period??????Hell, 20 years from now, there will be people evolved on pot!   

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
I understand he was for civil unions but his beliefs did just change out of no where too

Well see, you kind of answered your own question.If you were with gays for 95% of issues (housing, job security, adoption, military, etc. .......but held out on gay marriage.....and then evolved.......................that's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different than being Rev Phelps-like, then suddenly doing a 180
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 9:03 pm

The biggest reason to "support" gay marriage? These little things called the First, Tenth and Fourteenth Amendments. It's really that simply and takes up less than a page. Why we've let it consume billions of dollars and countless words is beyond me.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
I read a poll that said somewhere believe 70% and 90% of people between the ages of 18 and 30 believe in marriage equality, with some reports stating that support for marriage equality is making huge inroads in our next generation. Once some of these people reach voting age, the GOP would be leaving a huge number of these people out.

Bingo. Sooner or later (and most likely sooner if they lose enough elections) the GOP is going to have to tell its relatively small, but loud, constituency to basically be quiet because we (and you) cannot afford to keep losing elections, much like the Democrats and Civil Rights in the 1960's. The RNC recently affirmed their belief of traditional marriage (whatever that actually means, but it's not just simply a man and a woman), but it's my opinion that will be quietly put away in time for 2016, if it's even still relevant depending on the SCOTUS ruling on DoMA.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
"Whenever you don't understand something, follow the money." --Deep Throat

Yup. Though we've known his name--W. Mark Felt--for a few years now.  
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Most republicans believe in a hands-off style government.....shouldn't that include hands off personal matters (such as marriage?)
Quoting moose135 (Reply 4):
They want to make government just small enough to fit into our bedrooms...

   I was preparing to say that very line myself.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 5):
I like it....

It's from the West Wing.  
 
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 10:27 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 9):

Bingo. Sooner or later (and most likely sooner if they lose enough elections) the GOP is going to have to tell its relatively small, but loud, constituency to basically be quiet

It's true. "But they'll lose the religious right!" To whom? The Democrats? Not bloody likely. The worst that will happen is that the evangelicals will stay home.

Here's a newsflash: a strong majority of the USA now feels that evangelical christianity is not only out of touch, but that it is immoral and backwards. And this majority gets stronger and stronger the younger the demographic. Pat Robertson (who just today again compared gays to murderers, thieves, and rapists) is old and is going to die soon, as are most of his peers. The people who are approaching voting age now don't think the way he does.

But as long as these "religious" organizations operate as tax-free PACs and lobby for and fundraise for GOP candidates, GOP candidates will have to tow the party line. But, as Mr. Robertson himself said, "If you want to lose, then keep going." Well, that was in early 2012 when the GOP candidates were spouting off absurdities that even Mr. Robertson thought were too extreme.

But I know one very good reason why the GOP will not back gay marriage: Mr. Obama supports it. And, as has recently been said explicitly by one GOP senator, any idea of Mr. Obama's, no matter how reasonable, must not be supported by the GOP for fear of appearing to support the President.
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 10:38 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
Anyway I'm a Republican and I am all for gay marriage.

I'm an Independent, and I'm very wary of gay marriage, as I've said in past threads. I will happily endorse it as a matter of equality, but I won't endorse promoting it as desirable for homosexuals at large.

If one must, in order to mimic the roles in straight society, okay, go do it, but I never found mimicking straight society satisfying for me as a queer. That's one reason why I've never found using words such as husband to define one's same-sex partner as particularly desirable, as that says "I'd rather be straight" to me, which I can't wrap my head around why.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 9):
Yup. Though we've known his name--W. Mark Felt--for a few years now.

It's much more fun to still say Deep Throat.  
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 10:56 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
a strong majority of the USA now feels that evangelical christianity is not only out of touch, but that it is immoral and backwards.

And it's certainly not a "traditional" concept, rooted in Europe just before the foundation of the United States.
 
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 11:16 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
ome have criticized Mr. Portman for bandwagoning ...seriously? You want people to believe in gay marriage but accuse them of believing for the wrong reasons? Lets not be hypocritical here. Sen. Portman supports gay marriage because he knows first-hand that his son deserves the same rights as him and his wife.

For real. I'm appalled the way he was treated by some. Be happy he came out in favor of it even if he didn't come to his conclusion the same way. What would they have said if he didn't support gay marriage with his son going out? It was a lose-lose for him

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Most republicans believe in a hands-off style government

Most do not (or at least the politicians do not) even if they make a ton of noise about it. Cliche, but as they say, actions speak louder than words. I could say something all day but that doesn't mean anything

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
It's funny a republican changes his mind and its a what the hell now you do it. Obviously might be for the wrong reasons. The last two democratic presidents change their beliefs and its praise and he's on our side like he was with us the whole time dippidy do da day...

Yeah, wtf? I've brought it up before that yes, America has slightly less accepting views towards gay marriage and Republicans tend to support it less but let's look at Europe... many of those countries don't have true equality for gay people. And within the US, it was only a few years ago that even a majority of liberals didn't support gay marriage. I think it's quite dishonest to pick on the US and Republicans as much as they get picked on. Maybe they can get a bit more of the flaming, but it's unfair to give others a fair pass. Look at the prominent Democrats that were against gay marriage in 2008!!!! I'll leave it at that

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 8):
That was almost 20 years ago. Someone can't evolve over a 20 year period??????Hell, 20 years from now, there will be people evolved on pot!   

The point is they accept Clinton for changing but a lot of people are having trouble accepting Portman's evolution

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
It's true. "But they'll lose the religious right!" To whom? The Democrats? Not bloody likely. The worst that will happen is that the evangelicals will stay home.

Hold on there Doc. I agree with your thinking, but don't forgot how our Congressmen get elected. Many of them go through primaries or caucuses where the religious right is more heavily concentrated... Look at the GOP primary for 2012... Rick Santorum at one point had huge momentum. Had the general public voted at many of these primaries, he wouldn't've stood a snowball's chance in hell of winning a primary. But he went through primaries often where a large chunk of the voters were evangelicals and liberals and even a lot of moderates did not vote.

Kinda a roundabout way to explain it, sorry, but I think you get my point. We'll really see the evangelicals stop making it to Congress when the evangelicals lose a lot of power within the GOP's base. And I think that already has begun...
 
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 11:47 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
We'll really see the evangelicals stop making it to Congress when the evangelicals lose a lot of power within the GOP's base.

The two issues evangelicals have been able to gain the most support for are their stances on homosexuality and abortion. The issue with the longest legs is abortion, by far. Even the evangelical's political icon, Ronald Reagan, spoke publicly against politicizing homosexuality as far back as the late 1970s, when he spoke out against the Briggs Initiative, then on the California ballot.

The opposition to abortion goes much deeper in American society than the evangelical movement. Politicizing it will still be a popular rallying point, which is why I have trouble with the notion that the majority of Americans view evangelicals as immoral.
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 11:52 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
Politicizing it will still be a popular rallying point, which is why I have trouble with the notion that the majority of Americans view evangelicals as immoral.

The fact that some Americans may agree with them on one issue does not mean that Americans are OK with their behavior towards their fellow men in general.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Look at the GOP primary for 2012... Rick Santorum at one point had huge momentum.

Yes, but he had the same problem the Hare did when racing Romney's Tortise. The evangelicals might win you primaries, but they won't win you the election.
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Mon May 06, 2013 11:59 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
The evangelicals might win you primaries, but they won't win you the election.

Exactly, but I believe that is how many of them make it into Congress and why the evangelicals can make a lot of noise. I agree that it would be close to impossible for an evangelical to win the Presidency today but even for Republicans, I think 'not getting evangelicals elected/as your candidate' is a lot easier said than done sometimes. It wouldn't be the whole country saying no way to the evangelicals, it would be the GOP base and obviously, the evangelicals have a bigger chunk of that pie
 
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Tue May 07, 2013 12:00 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
The fact that some Americans may agree with them on one issue does not mean that Americans are OK with their behavior towards their fellow men in general.

If you have some statistics on that, I'd be more than happy to take a look at them.
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Tue May 07, 2013 2:24 am

This is the big thing that young conservatives are getting more and more. Many young conservatives get it, S.E. Cupp of The Cycle has been discussing the argument for the stated above reasons since the program started. Unfortunately the conservative people who are in elected office (who are older) stand with virtual unanimity with the pressure of evangelicals against gay marriage and even civil unions.

Times have changed in the years. It was only in 1997 when actress Ellen DeGeneres came out on her show and said she was gay, the ratings plummeted and her show was promptly cancelled a year later, even liberal Hollywood didn't have a place for her at the time. Ten years later in 2008 Prop 8 passes in California with a noticeable margin and President Obama
had to say he's against gay marriage to get elected into national office. Look how things have changed in four to five years.
I think it was Prop 8 in California that broke the camels back, after this passed people started changing how they thought about the issue of gay rights, it went from being an issue being discussed primarily by "white liberals" a mere six years ago to a universal issue today in this country. Basketball athlete Jason Collins came out a short time ago and with the exception of a few knuckleheads he was supported by his fellow athletes.
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Tue May 07, 2013 2:40 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 17):
If you have some statistics on that, I'd be more than happy to take a look at them.

The Pew Center does. They're showing an increasing number of young Americans eschewing religion.

But the statistics speak for themselves. Evangelicals lost the GOP the last election. They will lose them the next one and the one after that and after that...

The proof is in the pudding. The number of LGBT Americans who voted is larger than the margin by which Mr. Obama won the last Presidential election. Something like >90% voted for Mr. Obama, IIRC. If Mr. Romney had backed gay marriage, he might well have won.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Tue May 07, 2013 3:03 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
The Pew Center does. They're showing an increasing number of young Americans eschewing religion.

I'm going to have to call foul on this. The closest I could even find on morality issues is someplace called 'NewsBusters' who claim that the Pew Center shows that 42% of Americans think the press is immoral:

Pew: 42% of Americans Think 'The Press Is Immoral' and 'Hurt Democracy'

Somehow stretching a trend towards lower allegiance to a religion becoming "a strong majority of the USA now feels that evangelical christianity is not only out of touch, but that it is immoral and backwards" sounds more like a wish than a fact, especially when we can't even get a simple majority, let alone a strong majority, to agree that the press, of all people, is immoral.
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Tue May 07, 2013 10:53 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
But I know one very good reason why the GOP will not back gay marriage: Mr. Obama supports it. And, as has recently been said explicitly by one GOP senator, any idea of Mr. Obama's, no matter how reasonable, must not be supported by the GOP for fear of appearing to support the President.

I don't know about that argument. Obama might support gay marriage, but it certainly isn't an idea of his.
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Tue May 07, 2013 11:43 pm

This is yet another case of Democrats being intolerant of opposing viewpoints and trying to impose their views on the Republicans. If I were President, I would ban the Democratic Party from such evil activity.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Tue May 07, 2013 11:50 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 22):
This is yet another case of Democrats being intolerant of opposing viewpoints and trying to impose their views on the Republicans.

Admittedly, I have access to some very good prescribed medications, but even I'm jealous of what he's getting. That must be mind-bendingly good stuff.
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 1:25 am

I know this is being discussed about the situation in America, but I would like to give a perspective of what is playing out in Australia.

Lets face it, with the ball now "rolling" I think we can safely assume that most western countries will approve this in the next 15 years, so really it's just a matter of holding off for a few extra years, (or not)

Australia has recently seen their close neighbours, New Zealand, approve gay marriage. Something we are very proud of over that side of the ditch, and we dont miss an opportunity to remind our close friends in Australia of how much more progressive we are, (even though, on many fronts, we are not)

Australia has an election this year, in which the ruling Labor party, (traditionally leftish) is almost certainly going to lose power to the more Conservative party, (bizarrely called the "Liberals")

Strangely, the current Labor Prime Minister has indicated that she is not supportive, and would not vote affirmative on gay marriage. From what I can see, she takes this position for purely political reasons, rather than what she actually believes is the right thing to do. The Conservatives, predictably, are opposed, as they are concerned about Australia being engulfed in a gay plague that slowly eats away at the fabric of society.

I think there is massive political/strategic opportunity here, for both sides.

Gay marriage is a policy that actually affects quite a small portion of the population, (the percentage of gay people who actually want to get married). But it has huge PR value for a government as it touches on the issue of equality.

Surely, a government in this situation should use this as a positive way to differentiate themselves from the opposition and support gay marriage. I doubt a Labor government would lose much of their current support over it, and they would potentially pick up a huge gain in new support

Similarly, (if Labor did not do this, which they wont), The Conservative party, who will get in later this year, could then introduce this themselves. With the key message being, "Australia, you dont need a Labor party to be inclusive and progressive, we can do that for you". They are more likely to lose some core support, but will also gain followers.
 
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 2:34 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 22):
This is yet another case of Democrats being intolerant of opposing viewpoints and trying to impose their views on the Republicans. If I were President, I would ban the Democratic Party from such evil activity.

Actually it's more like the Democrats saying that you can think whatever you want at home but you have no right to deprive somebody else of a right or privilege (per the 14th Amendment) that you yourself enjoy, particularly when it's based on a belief that has ZERO validity in court (per the 1st Amendment).
 
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 2:53 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 22):
This is yet another case of Democrats being intolerant of opposing viewpoints and trying to impose their views on the Republicans. If I were President, I would ban the Democratic Party from such evil activity.

1: This thread was started by a Republican LOL

2: I only see intolerance against unfair treatment, you are still able to dislike gays, blacks, hispanics, etc but you can't deprive them of rights
 
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 3:10 am

They'll support it when a "conservative" think tank will tell them it will bring them more voters that the ones they'd lose.

I can tell them it's already the case, especially in the US where there is no other party to vote for that would be more conservative !

Here it's even more funny, the far right is less against it than the regular right. The regular right is only against it because they have to oppose the socialists that are "driving the country into the ground" according to them (I see it's DocLightning argument), when the next national elections come (not before 2017) they'll have reverted completely and will argue they were never really against, there was just this or that minor point in the law that they didn't like. And of course they'll deny they even talked about scraping the law.

It's interesting (and in my opinion makes the US almost ungovernable) that you have elections every two years, so each issue can never really die before it comes back again, people can't really forget their previous opinion and form a new one, hence issues like abortion and the death penalty are discussed again and again and again when other similar countries have dealt with them decades ago and forgot they were even issues.
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 4:29 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
For real. I'm appalled the way he was treated by some. Be happy he came out in favor of it even if he didn't come to his conclusion the same way. What would they have said if he didn't support gay marriage with his son going out? It was a lose-lose for him

Yeah, it probably was, and I'm glad he chose the path he did.

I just wonder what effect his opposition to gay marriage had on his son's life prior to coming out. But that's really between them.

Honestly, I'd just be interested in an explanation of his changing view, that's all. But he's certainly not required to give it.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 22):
This is yet another case of Democrats being intolerant of opposing viewpoints and trying to impose their views on the Republicans. If I were President, I would ban the Democratic Party from such evil activity.

Oooo, I want to play the "post-random-partisan-political-comments-in-random-thread" game too!

It's all Bush's fault.
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DocLightning
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 4:33 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 21):
I don't know about that argument. Obama might support gay marriage, but it certainly isn't an idea of his.

Nor was ObamaCare. It was really Mr. Romney's idea. And you saw how that went. It was just admitted, they would rather not cooperate for the good of the country than cooperate with the President.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):

They'll support it when a "conservative" think tank will tell them it will bring them more voters that the ones they'd lose.

"Think Tanks" --conservative or liberal-- come up with a conclusion and then accumulate and select evidence that supports it. They also devote resources to coming up with an idea, no matter how ridiculous, and figuring out how to market it using the right language. Like telling politicians whether or not to use phrases like "pathway to citizenship" or such.

As best as I can tell, they're seers with tea leaves, but politicians trust them and they seem to be highly elite and well-funded.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
It's interesting (and in my opinion makes the US almost ungovernable) that you have elections every two years, so each issue can never really die before it comes back again, people can't really forget their previous opinion and form a new one, hence issues like abortion and the death penalty are discussed again and again and again when other similar countries have dealt with them decades ago and forgot they were even issues.

Do you honestly think it has to do with the frequency of elections? It's an interesting observation about us and I'd never really thought of it that way. But I wonder if the election cycle is the main reason. That seems too simplistic to me, but I don't know what to suggest as an alternative.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 4:41 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 28):
I just wonder what effect his opposition to gay marriage had on his son's life prior to coming out. But that's really between them.

Honestly, him changing his mind was probably dependent on his son, I'd bet on that. If his son wasn't gay, he probably would still be anti-day, all IMO. But I'm just happy he changed over, even if it had nothing to do with the want to advance civil rights. It could have been worse, he could have disowned his son and become more anti-gay!
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 5:13 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
I'm an Independent, and I'm very wary of gay marriage, as I've said in past threads. I will happily endorse it as a matter of equality, but I won't endorse promoting it as desirable for homosexuals at large.

If one must, in order to mimic the roles in straight society, okay, go do it, but I never found mimicking straight society satisfying for me as a queer. That's one reason why I've never found using words such as husband to define one's same-sex partner as particularly desirable, as that says "I'd rather be straight" to me, which I can't wrap my head around why.

These two paragraphs sum up exactly my feelings on the subject. One of the big advantages of being gay is that there was never any pressure on you to get married. I never craved social respectability and never will.
 
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 5:30 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Evangelicals lost the GOP the last election. They will lose them the next one and the one after that and after that...

   They offer nothing more than a dreadful lifestyle choice  I think there's a (slow) awakening in the GOP that many of their core constituents are turning into liabilities, rather than assets, so it behooves them to get to know their gay son finally.
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 5:39 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
It's true. "But they'll lose the religious right!" To whom? The Democrats? Not bloody likely. The worst that will happen is that the evangelicals will stay home.

Common sense. Wish it were more common.

--

My perspective, as a conservative, is anything that limits government's interference in the personal lives of its citizens, is a good thing. Consenting adults,hurting no one, I could not care less what they are doing, and invite them to (similarly) not worry about what I do.
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mariner
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 5:49 am

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 24):
Gay marriage is a policy that actually affects quite a small portion of the population, (the percentage of gay people who actually want to get married).

According to the Governor of Rhode Island, it affects a larger percentage of society. In an op-ed in the NYT before the vote was taken there, he said that many large corporations, these days, may be reluctant to invest (and employ people) in states that don't support same sex marriage - that same sex marriage in Rhode Island may lead to more jobs.

There was another recent case of a senior executive at Bank of America taking a stand against the banning (again?) of gay marriage/civil unions in North Carolina - that it would be "disastrous" for business:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...-gaymarriage-idUSL2E8EQGOR20120326

"A top Bank of America Corp executive has taken a stand against a proposed constitutional amendment that would ban same-sex marriages and civil unions in its home state, saying the proposal would be "disastrous" to North Carolina's business climate."

Certainly corporations like Apple and Google have an extremely open attitude, as this video, of a gay Google employee from San Francisco proposing to his boyfriend in Google London, suggests:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH3-6tj_xFM&feature=player_embedded

The business of America is business?

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seb146
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 6:24 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 2):
States rights

The right just love states rights.

Unless it goes against their personal beliefs. Then, all bets are off. This is a "Christian" nation, after all. According to the right (who control the media). The state issued contracts are all well and good. Unless it is between two consenting adults. Then, those two consenting adults had better be male/female. Because one sentence in one book says so! And they are going to hold the whole country hostage over that one sentence in that one book. States rights be damned!
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 12:10 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 35):
The right just love states rights.

"States' Rights" has a limit. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;..."
 
blueflyer
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 3:32 pm

Here's a new one: because homosexuals have been shown to be, as a group, more financially conservative and responsible than heterosexuals, and perhaps, perhaps, if the GOP stopped worrying about what they do in the bedroom, they might like the result at the ballot box (a generation or two later).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
It's true. "But they'll lose the religious right!" To whom? The Democrats? Not bloody likely. The worst that will happen is that the evangelicals will stay home.

And then the GOP will lose even more elections. Homosexuals may vote for the GOP if the GOP smartens up, illegals might do the same, making up for the religious right, but it will take several election cycles, it will not happen overnight. Only the current batch of office holders doesn't care about the future prospect of today's young republicans as much as they care about their odds of winning the next election. It is power for power's sake. Their current short-sightedness is driving them into an extended period of powerlessness, but today's GOP officials will be dead or retired by then.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 5):
But what I find difficult to fathom is that his beliefs suddenly changed when his son came out.

I would be equally suspicious of an overnight conversion, but I can certainly believe that in the two years since his son came out, he had numerous opportunities to compare his political beliefs on homosexuality to what he was seeing in front of him, and eventually draw his own conclusions...

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 31):
One of the big advantages of being gay is that there was never any pressure on you to get married.

My now-divorced gay cousin once told me it didn't occur to him the fight for the right to get married is also a fight for the right to divorce...
 
727LOVER
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
The point is they accept Clinton for changing but a lot of people are having trouble accepting Portman's evolution

and Mark Sanford just got re-elected......so see, people forgive their own party, people that share their ideologies. Don't act like it's only the left that does it.
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 8:03 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 37):
And then the GOP will lose even more elections. Homosexuals may vote for the GOP if the GOP smartens up, illegals might do the same, making up for the religious right

   Illegals cannot vote. Only U.S. citizens may vote.

HOWEVER, many naturalized legal immigrants can and do vote. And many of them have friends and family who are struggling with INS in many ways. Flat-out refusal to reform the immigration system is going to lose those votes.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 36):
"States' Rights" has a limit

It also becomes a pretty empty argument when the same people wanting States Rights were clamoring for a Constitutional amendment against gay marriage only two years ago. Or when they want federal anti-abortion laws. It proves that "States Rights" is actually a very thin veil for bigotry and I dismiss that argument as such.

States rights apply to things that are not fundamental civil rights, like drug laws and health codes. Believe it or not, a state could even legalize murder (homicide laws are state laws, not federal). But the Supreme Court has ruled over and over again that the US Constitution applies to all levels of government, from town to federal.
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TSS
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 8:04 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 31):
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
I'm an Independent, and I'm very wary of gay marriage, as I've said in past threads. I will happily endorse it as a matter of equality, but I won't endorse promoting it as desirable for homosexuals at large.

If one must, in order to mimic the roles in straight society, okay, go do it, but I never found mimicking straight society satisfying for me as a queer. That's one reason why I've never found using words such as husband to define one's same-sex partner as particularly desirable, as that says "I'd rather be straight" to me, which I can't wrap my head around why.

These two paragraphs sum up exactly my feelings on the subject. One of the big advantages of being gay is that there was never any pressure on you to get married. I never craved social respectability and never will.

I see your side of things, I really do, but let me share a story with you that underscores the need for marriage equality for gays:

Bill and Mike were together for around 15 years. Bill came from an ultra-religious family that disowned him after he "came out", and he had had no contact with them at all in +/- 20 years. Bill had a relatively low-paying but personally satisfying job and an exemplary credit rating. Mike, on the other hand, had a high-paying job that was subject to "boom and bust" cycles and his credit rating was awful. Together in a committed relationship, with Mike's income and Bill's careful fiscal nature they bought, furnished, and paid off a home and three vehicles, all placed in Bill's name at the time of purchase due to his better credit rating. Bill suffered a massive heart attack and died, and within days his family, who had disowned him and with whom he had had no contact in +/- 20 years, exercised their right as "next of kin" and took possession of the house and all three cars and turned Mike out into the street with only the clothes on his back.

Had they been able to legally marry as they no doubt would have, Mike would have been Bill's legal heir and would not have been rendered homeless by Bill's unscrupulous relatives whose rejection of all things homosexual clearly did not include tangible assets.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 8:13 pm

Quoting TSS (Reply 40):
Had they been able to legally marry as they no doubt would have, Mike would have been Bill's legal heir and would not have been rendered homeless by Bill's unscrupulous relatives whose rejection of all things homosexual clearly did not include tangible assets.

As someone who lived through the AIDS epidemic from day one, I fully understand these kinds of stories. That's one reason why I said in the first lines of my post that I endorsed same-sex marriage as a matter of equality, even though it isn't something that's for me. I don't have a need to mimic straight society to legitimize myself or others.

Be that as it may, marriage is a very poor substitute for proper financial and medical guardian planning, whether you're straight or gay.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 8:21 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 38):
and Mark Sanford just got re-elected......so see, people forgive their own party, people that share their ideologies. Don't act like it's only the left that does it.

Erm, I don't. 90% of my posts on this site have that little disclaimer of "the other side can be just as guilty." In fact, I think I've attacked the hypocrisy of the GOP in this thread more than the Dem's    
 
blueflyer
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 8:48 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
Illegals cannot vote. Only U.S. citizens may vote.

I know that, but we are reaching a critical mass of US born children of illegals, children who remember who isn't helping their parents above and beyond anything else...
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 8:49 pm

Quoting TSS (Reply 40):
Had they been able to legally marry as they no doubt would have, Mike would have been Bill's legal heir and would not have been rendered homeless by Bill's unscrupulous relatives whose rejection of all things homosexual clearly did not include tangible assets


That's why you have civil partnership.

In the past gay relationships never needed a piece of paper to keep them intact, so they were probably more honest than heterosexual relationships in that regard. We prided ourselves on the fact that gay relationships stood or fell on what they were, nothing else.

Part of me despairs at the fact that gays are now clamouring for a "respectability" that would have been anathema to us up to only quite recently.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Wed May 08, 2013 9:08 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 44):
Part of me despairs at the fact that gays are now clamouring for a "respectability" that would have been anathema to us up to only quite recently.

What an excellent way to sum it all up with a few well-chosen words.   
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mariner
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Thu May 09, 2013 1:19 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 44):
Part of me despairs at the fact that gays are now clamouring for a "respectability" that would have been anathema to us up to only quite recently.

Times have changed and I wish the young blokes well.

I don't despair at all. I don't want to get married - I'm queer not not gay and I like being subversive - but for those who do want to get married, heck, why not?

I've had a great life and a lot of fun and met challenges that, these days, might seem unnecessary. But I watched the lives of too many of my friends damaged because they were less resilient (or bloody minded) than I.

But I have no idea what my life would have been like if I had had a full place at the table when I was young, rather than being a constant outsider, and, in the countries where I lived, a criminal.

mariner
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AeroWesty
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Thu May 09, 2013 1:39 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 46):
I don't despair at all.

When we chatted about this a couple of months ago in one of the pope threads, you made mention of that you feared that marriage could become the desirable norm for same-sex partners. I remember that exchange because your thoughts on the matter helped close up my circle of thought on partnerships for those who desired one, which I'd not completely thought through all the way before then.

Did I misunderstand what your concern was about then, or am I conflating two different issues in my mind?
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mariner
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Thu May 09, 2013 3:02 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 47):
Did I misunderstand what your concern was about then, or am I conflating two different issues in my mind?


I don't know because it is a tough one to describe. It;s clear to me - I am not sure I can explain it.

I cannot really comprehend a world in which the ambition of a young man is to "marry" - and be able to so so - another young man, and it goes against almost everything, I - queer - think my to life to have been.

As I said in my previous post - I like being subversive, by which I mean that I like the definition of queer that I grew up with - a societal renegade? When I came to terms with it, it was an enormous freedom, I could love who I wanted, when I wanted, or even, as happened to me one magic summer, I could love two people, each of different gender, at the same time. But it was me against the societal norms.

I don't lament anything that happened to me, but when I was young I spent a lot of energy on fighting battles that now don't need to be fought. I accept that those battles may have been "character forming" but they took up a lot of time, were sometimes negative and - at least for a period of time - I was defined by my sexuality. Which may be why I also put myself deliberately in quite dangerous situations, at least in part to prove something about myself, or to myself. There were enormous rewards to that but was it really something that needed to be proved?

And I am - and was always - aware that for other young men who did similar things, for similar reasons, the results were profoundly negative, as in life-ending. In my view, Lawrence of Arabia was one such.

I suppose what I was trying to express is the difference - why I describe myself as queer rather than gay. The world is becoming homogenised, and I think that is a pity in many, many ways - but it is inevitable - and I, by my openness, along with countless others, was part of that process of homogenisation.

So I wish the young blokes well. They are living in the the world that I and those countless others helped shape.

mariner

[Edited 2013-05-08 20:10:54]
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sccutler
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RE: Why The American Right Should Support Gay Marriage

Thu May 09, 2013 3:51 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
It also becomes a pretty empty argument when the same people wanting States Rights were clamoring for a Constitutional amendment against gay marriage only two years ago.

Separate issues, not linked. Some of the same people, some different people.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
States rights apply to things that are not fundamental civil rights, like drug laws and health codes. Believe it or not, a state could even legalize murder (homicide laws are state laws, not federal). But the Supreme Court has ruled over and over again that the US Constitution applies to all levels of government, from town to federal.

Quite right.
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