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AeroWesty
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 3:20 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 98):
I did not see any words of sympathy from your part to the victim and his family, unless you consider Blimey as an expression of sympathy, but asking for justice to the victim and his family is an expression of sympathy.

"Blimey" was my expression of shock at the heinousness of the crime. I didn't ask for a revenge killing in return. I come from a mostly secular background. It appears odd to me, and others like me, to see the defense of a religion first and foremost, put before an expression of concern for any victims of the religion's perversion.

What my attempt here is not to condemn your religion, but to help open your eyes as to how a platform of 'violence for violence' before a condemnation of the heinous act done in its name doesn't paint it as a religion with a firm foundation in peace. Only you and your brethren can change that impression, if you so desire.
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777way
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 3:26 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 96):
These two will probably spend 7 to 12 years in a spacious prison cell with satellite TV, 3 meals a day and pocket money if they do chores. Once they get out, they'll probably get new identities (to protect them), a job handed to them and a place to live. They'll have carte blanch to start all over again, like nothing happens. No harm, no foul.

Gah.... makes my blood boil.

Same for American spies caught here, usually put in some nice house serving as jail, tended to by diplomatic staff and then sent back home to live under new identities, or back to the real ones, as they came here as fakes, their cars are with fake plates etc. some are caught and shown live on TV just sitting in car and claiming diplomatic immunity.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 3:28 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 51):
Guy has a lot of guns, you call in more cops with guns. A lot of guys with guns, you call in a tank.

I agree that all on-duty police officers should be armed, but there's a bit of a hole in your logic: How many police officers are injured or killed waiting for that backup? It's far better to take action to prevent them needing that backup in the first place.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 83):
Frankly, they shouldn't be in hospital, they're a drain on NHS resources. They should be denied treatment.

Stupid comment.  

Whether you like it or not, doctors are trained to not make personal judgments on patients. They treat everyone equally as a human. When people need healthcare, they need it now, there's time for judgment later.

Furthermore, as far as we know, these men are British citizens and are entitled to the exact same rights as any other British citizen, regardless if they've committed murder. If you start being selective about equality, you might as well set yourself back 100 years.

As shocking and appalling this crime is, it's not much more shocking and appalling than people calling for the denial of rights to people who have yet to be convicted, or even charged, with a crime.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 88):
Your first three replies had nothing to do with condemning this act in the name of Islam.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 95):
How about first showing some sympathy for the victim, his family and friends, then condemning the perversion of a religion which is supposed to be about peace, rather than for reigning more violence upon the world?

AeroWesty, your posts concern me here. You seem to be holding SOHIB to a different standard than the rest of our A-net members for reasons clearly unknown to me. Not every poster in this thread has condemned these acts (I'm not even sure if I did) yet you only pick on one. I find that rather unsettling from someone I expect much more of...

Quoting OA260 (Reply 89):
These people were often seen in the town centre with leaflets and a stall which preached hate.

We have the opposite here in Toronto. There's a street corner in the Entertainment District where I often see a couple Muslim guys with a table with literature that teaches about peaceful Islam, while 20 feet away there's this guy with big signs with Bible verses on them screaming at the top of his lungs about "sin" and "fiery hell" and what have you...

Quoting garpd (Reply 96):
IMO, a more civilised method is to write a sub paragraph in the human rights charter, stating that those who wilfully kill another person forfeit their own human rights. This would then allow us to throw bastards like these two gentlemen into a deep, dark and damp hole with naught but a bowl of gruel and some water to sustain them every day.

The problem being that the more you add to the charter, the more that is up for challenge in court.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 3:41 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 102):
AeroWesty, your posts concern me here. You seem to be holding SOHIB to a different standard than the rest of our A-net members for reasons clearly unknown to me. Not every poster in this thread has condemned these acts (I'm not even sure if I did) yet you only pick on one. I find that rather unsettling from someone I expect much more of

Thanks for the candor in your comments. My impression of the above hundred or so posts (which I've reviewed again prior to this post) generally fall into one of the following:

• Shock at the crime;
• Sympathy for the victim;
• Resignation and despair that the punishment will never fit the crime; or
• Eye for an eye, initially a public display of such.

I'm generally a call a spade a spade kinda guy. If one poster's comments are an outlier to the others, replies to them may stand out more than replies to others. It simply goes with the territory.
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SoJo
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 3:45 pm

I just want to add to the horror I feel about this event. It's beyond belief. Now as some have pointed out, they MAY spend the rest of their lives in prison. But, who's going to pay to keep these murderers inside? Justice should be served and I personally would send them to a UK military prison and see how long they last. They don't deserve to live. Alternatively,the UK has so many isolated islands build the prisons there. All Cameron can say is "We won't give into terrorism." Whimp! Let's face it, with HIS security people, he's never going to face a situation like this. This stupid country has gone down the plug hole big time. Then 2014 we can expect some more favourable people to come in. Glad I'm 65 and won't be around when the UK goes tits up.
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SOBHI51
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 3:47 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 100):
It appears odd to me, and others like me, to see the defense of a religion first and foremost, put before an expression of concern for any victims of the religion's perversion.

Where do you see in my first posting any mention of religion? Or as a matter of fact my second posting i did not mention or defended Islam.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 56):
Have no mercy on them, they lived by the machetes they should be executed by one in public, come on west have some courage and don't be soft on those criminals.


[Edited 2013-05-23 08:52:40]
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
romeobravo
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 3:49 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 102):
Furthermore, as far as we know, these men are British citizens and are entitled to the exact same rights as any other British citizen, regardless if they've committed murder. If you start being selective about equality, you might as well set yourself back 100 years.

There's always the dream...
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 4:02 pm

Quoting SoJo (Reply 104):
All Cameron can say is "We won't give into terrorism." Whimp! Let's face it, with HIS security people, he's never going to face a situation like this.

Brighton, England, October 12, 1984.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 105):
Where do you see in my first posting any mention of religion?

I used the term "first and foremost", not "first post".
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WestJet747
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 4:04 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 103):
I'm generally a call a spade a spade kinda guy. If one poster's comments are an outlier to the others, replies to them may stand out more than replies to others. It simply goes with the territory.

Well my own observation is that there have been many on this thread calling for death of these perpetrators (some even calling for torture, which is absolutely repulsive and not deserving of any further acknowledgement), so I don't see SOHIB's comments as being an outlier. I feel that he genuinely condemns these acts, even if he hasn't effectively communicated as such. He has been highly critical of these extremists in other threads as well.   
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SOBHI51
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 4:13 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 108):
even if he hasn't effectively communicated as such

I CONDEMN STRONGLY ANY ACT OF TERRORISM COMMITTED BY ANY RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS AND ESPECIALLY ISLAMIC because the Islam i follow taught me peace and acceptance of others, i did and will never discriminate against any other human on grounds of race or religion.
Westjet747 Thank you.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 108):
I don't see SOHIB's comments as being an outlier.

Here are the other posts I've seen calling for death:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 34):
I would like to see these attackers swing from the gallows - But current human right laws I believe forbid execution.
Quoting oly720man (Reply 46):
There aren't enough bullets, volts & chemicals and hell ain't hot enough for those two.
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 91):
Drag them out to a sandpit in the prison backyard, one bullet into the head and then burial in an anonymous grave somewhere in the prison yards

What sets these posts apart is that they aren't in the context of "y'all are a bunch of softies—give them death!", which to me, in context of the rest of the SOHIB's comments, make his outliers to the rest of the posts in this thread, even those calling for death.

Just my    as well.
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shamrock350
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 4:22 pm

The soldier murdered in a terrorist attack near a military barracks in Woolwich has been named as Drummer Lee Rigby, he was 25 and had a two-year-old son.

http://news.sky.com/story/1094804/woolwich-terror-attack-soldier-named

Very sad, heart goes out to his family.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 89):
The MCB ( Muslim Council of Britain ) are about to hold a news conference. I am hoping for some real meaningful comments from them in terms of unconditional outrage at this attack.

Didn't see the press conference but it wouldn't surprise if went something a long the lines of, "we don't agree with it, Islam is a peaceful religion, nothing to do with us, not our problem" which is what most of these things end up sounding like. Well I'm afraid it is their problem, these people are embedded in their community and use it to go undetected as they plot these horrendous crimes. It's about time these "community leaders" started tackling the problem instead of inadvertently shielding them through their inaction.

[Edited 2013-05-23 10:00:47]
 
CXB77L
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 4:22 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 102):
Whether you like it or not, doctors are trained to not make personal judgments on patients. They treat everyone equally as a human. When people need healthcare, they need it now, there's time for judgment later.

Doctors are human too.

If I were a doctor, I'd refuse to treat them. Not that it'd make any difference as there'd be someone else to treat them - the only thing that happens is that I'd probably be banned from practising medicine ever again.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 102):
Furthermore, as far as we know, these men are British citizens and are entitled to the exact same rights as any other British citizen, regardless if they've committed murder. If you start being selective about equality, you might as well set yourself back 100 years.

As shocking and appalling this crime is, it's not much more shocking and appalling than people calling for the denial of rights to people who have yet to be convicted, or even charged, with a crime.

As an aspiring lawyer, the rational side of me agrees with what you've posted. Yes, everyone is entitled to a fair trial, no matter the crime, and they cannot be denied their rights until such time as they have been tried and convicted.

But the emotional side of me cannot fathom why they should be allowed their "rights" when they had so violently and callously denied the rights of their victim, and one of the accused has even confessed to committing the crime. That poor soldier was not a casualty of war, he was murdered in cold blood in his own country.

Incidentally, the victim has been named as Lee Rigby: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22644857

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 108):
(some even calling for torture, which is absolutely repulsive and not deserving of any further acknowledgement)

More repulsive than the murder itself?

[Edited 2013-05-23 09:24:59]
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PHX787
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 4:40 pm

I dont know how this degraded into a debate about the nature of Islam but here's wat has me worried-

If any religion at all threatens violence, they lost all credibility and should be treated as a police threat to society.

No religion has any right to say who is going to heaven or going to hell. We are on this planet not because we are to die, but because we are to live out our lives in a good way.

No religion should ever justify such violence as "god's ideals." No one should support this, and especially with the violence associated with Jihad, I think that this type of violence should be forcibly quelled by the members of their own religion.
Just imagine if the WBC became a militant group. I guarantee you they'd all be wiped out within a month.

No matter how you put it, these guys abused religion to justify their actions. They have severe mental disabilities, and they should be dealt with severely. Ringed out for all their information in order to prevent future attacks.
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SOBHI51
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 4:45 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 109):
n context of the rest of the SOHIB's comments, make his outliers to the rest of the posts in this thread, even those calling for death.

And not because i am a Muslim defending Islam first and foremost as you kept mentioning in your posts or because i did not show any sympathy to the victim and his family. Can you make up your mind.

[Edited 2013-05-23 09:53:37]
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 4:54 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 114):
Can you make up your mind.

I'm not exactly sure what you believe I'm being indecisive about. I've allowed my posts to be freely scrutinized and replied without repercussion, so I consider this tangent of the conversation closed.
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jsnww81
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 4:56 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 90):
means nothing until the billion (closer to 2 or more) "peaceful" Muslims turn on the relativley few renegades and make it very clear they are the problem and will not be tolerated.

This.

Each time something like this happens, we see lots of platitudes from Western Muslim leadership about how these acts aren't the true nature of their religion. Where are the protests? Where are the attempts to root out these troublemakers, bring them to the authorities, and try to clear the name of Islam? When someone draws a foolish cartoon of the prophet Muhammad, we see thousands of Muslims take to the street all over the world almost instantaneously. But when people are brutally murdered in the name of Islam, we get press conferences and platitudes, and claims that Muslims are victims of prejudice and misunderstanding. Always the victim. Never responsible for the actions of their followers. Do they ever stop to wonder why this might be?

Until this kind of critical self-examination happens, the other six billion of us on this planet will continue to regard Islam with extreme suspicion, and Muslims living in Western nations will find their welcome mat increasingly wearing out. Patience is growing very, very thin in Europe, Australia and the US.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 4:57 pm

[

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 115):
I'm not exactly sure what you believe I'm being indecisive about.

Because you keep jumping from one accusation to another.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 115):
so I consider this tangent of the conversation closed.

Good you should have done that long time ago.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
WestJet747
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 4:59 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 110):
What sets these posts apart is that they aren't in the context of "y'all are a bunch of softies—give them death!", which to me, in context of the rest of the SOHIB's comments, make his outliers to the rest of the posts in this thread, even those calling for death.

Just my    as well.

I'll have to respectfully disagree. I see them all as being the same. But we each have the right to our own interpretation, so I'll leave it at that!

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 112):
If I were a doctor, I'd refuse to treat them.

Chances are the ER doc wouldn't know the circumstances of the incoming patients' injuries as it's not important. They probably only need to know what the injuries are that need to be treated. I doubt any doctors at the hospital are watching TV at work, so they wouldn't know what transpired until after their shift.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 112):
But the emotional side of me cannot fathom why they should be allowed their "rights" when they had so violently and callously denied the rights of their victim, and one of the accused has even confessed to committing the crime.

Thinking with one's heart instead of one's head is a critical flaw. Emotions will almost always lead to regrettable decisions that you likely wouldn't make under a cooler head. We're all best off being shocked and horrified by this senseless murder, but all the while maintaining some decorum about us and ensuring that these guys get fair treatment until they receive a fair trial, and at that point, once found guilty, can we talk about refusing rights.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 112):
That poor soldier was not a casualty of war, he was murdered in cold blood in his own country.

Some (not me) will argue differently. In the video, which I'm sure everyone has seen by now, the one guy with the knives talks about women in his "land" having to see murders like that all the time, possibly alluding to the UK's involvement in Afghanistan and/or Iraq, which further confuses things for me because he is Nigerian, and I can't recall the UK having any involvement in the Boko Haram conflict.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 112):
More repulsive than the murder itself?

Yes.
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romeobravo
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 5:01 pm

I can understand people calling for torture actually. It's not something i agree with, i don't agree with the death penalty either. This persons should be locked up for life though. They have done a truly horrendous thing and i can understand why people don't feel prison is enough.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 5:14 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 118):
I'll have to respectfully disagree. I see them all as being the same.

I'm not trying to get the last word in, just to clarify a point. The first post by this member set the tone, in my belief, in a context of 'us vs. them':

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 56):
come on west have some courage

(I took 'west' to mean the western hemisphere or western nations, not short for Westy.   )

With that, I'm off to appointments. Have a good day.
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SOBHI51
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 79):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anjem_Choudary

This is a very dangerous guy.

Quoting oly720man (Reply 79):
According to the Sun, both the perpetrators had close links to a known "hate preacher" Anjem Choudary who used to lead a now banned group

If this is proven this guy must face prosecution for murder.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 5:19 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 120):
The first post by this member set the tone, in my belief, in a context of 'us vs. them':

First this member have a name and you used it few times.
Yes it is us the world against them the terrorists.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 120):
(I took 'west' to mean the western hemisphere or western nations, not short for Westy.   )

If i wanted to type Westy i would have done it  
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 6:01 pm

I think this murder is being blown all out of proportion to what it really was, two idiots stabbing a guy to death on the side of a road. I don't think that fact that these twits were muslim means anything, it's more of a hate crime than anything else. Turning it into a media circus doesn't make sense to me, it was a nasty murder but don't read anything more into it. Had they gone on a machete massacre Ugandian style then I think the attention would be warranted.
 
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 6:06 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 62):
My thoughts exactly. I believe a lot of Maggie type "true Conservatives" if you know what I mean could be tempted to lean this way as the current Conservatives are not blue enough, but hesitate due to their more extreme manifesto.

The thing with them is, when we first saw manifestations of extreme Islamism in the UK, were the calls from some for the murder of Salmam Rushdie, for writing a book that few of his detractors had even read (those of them throughout the world that actually could even read), all based on deliberate provocations from their 'spiritual leaders'.
While the right thing was done with protecting Rushdie (that is, defending the right to free speech), the government of the day did not even attempt to prosecute any of those here that incited murder. This is a crime here, many did it to TV cameras.
I feel a dangerous precedent was set right there, the PM of the day, Thatcher.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 83):
Frankly, they shouldn't be in hospital, they're a drain on NHS resources. They should be denied treatment.

Another precedent we don't want to set. Where does it lead?
Besides, while it is likely those two acted alone, it's far from certain. Are there networks they might be a part of? Do they know like minded others? Those who do not show out like so many others now in prison, starting by suspicious trips to Pakistan and/or trying to source ammonium nitrate as an explosive.
Cannot find this out if they are dead.
While the police officer who shot them would, under UK police doctrine, 'fired to stop', in this case they survived. Though one of them might yet expire from wounds.

Much admiration for that Cub Scout Leader, a middle aged lady, who confronted them, challenged them, kept them busy talking to her not attacking anyone else, while they had blood drenched weapons and some reports, including from her, a revolver. (Not sure if it was real or a replica).

Despite the horror of this murder, I remain convinced that aside from their arrest, detention, or if it comes it, their elimination, is to make as few changes to our way of life as possible.
That's what these fanatics are attacking after all.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 6:13 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 123):
I think this murder is being blown all out of proportion to what it really was, two idiots stabbing a guy to death on the side of a road. I don't think that fact that these twits were muslim means anything, it's more of a hate crime than anything else.

They murdered a British soldier "in the name of Allah" and declared war on the British people saying "you and your children will be next" so that alone makes it more that two idiots stabbing a guy to death. Stabbings happen regularly in London, many of them have been fatal but what makes this different is the way it was carried out and message that was attached to it.

At least one of the suspects has now been linked to a banned radical group and both were apparently known to the security forces in the UK. The man videoed had previously been arrested on his way to join Al Shabaab in Somalia so although neither are believed to part of a wider terror group they were radical and it would be foolish for us to just class them as two idiots when they are probably not alone, it's likely there are many more of them with similar plots in mind.

Two more people have been arrested.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...urder-following-terror-attack.html
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 6:19 pm

Actually, being British citizens (or British Subjects), can´t they be tried under the treason laws and helping an enemy during wartime?

Jan
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777way
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 6:25 pm

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 116):
the other six billion of us on this planet will continue to regard Islam with extreme suspicion,

non whites don't really care, so make that a fraction, yes theres trouble off and on in some non white countries but nothing like the paranoia and dislike of the west, barring a few non white countries the most of the earth is third world / poor, and more concerned with other issues.

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 116):
and Muslims living in Western nations will find their welcome mat increasingly wearing out. Patience is growing very, very thin in Europe, Australia and the US.

There is a whole world out there other than those places you mentioned, feel free to add Canada to your list too.
 
corinthians
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 6:31 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 128):
non whites don't really care, so make that a fraction, yes theres trouble off and on in some non white countries but nothing like the paranoia and dislike of the west, barring a few non white countries the most of the earth is third world / poor, and more concerned with other issues.

Hmmm...Philippines? Thailand? India? China? Russia? Copts? Lebanese/Syrian Christians? They all have problems with Islamic terrorism and all view Islam with as much if not more suspicion than the West.
 
777way
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 7:03 pm

Quoting corinthians (Reply 129):

Yeah but they are non white and not paranoid as you imagine, for you all its more a white west vs islam thing, for them there is nothing like that, yes there are issues but not like yours. They are in their own countries, societies, ethnicities, races, not as outsiders in a racially and culturally different west.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 7:06 pm

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 126):
"you and your children will be next" so that alone makes it more that two idiots stabbing a guy to death.

Sure sounds like a couple of idiots to me.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 7:10 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 130):
Yeah but they are non white and not paranoid as you imagine, for you all its more a white west vs islam thing, for them there is nothing like that, yes there are issues but not like yours. They are in their own countries, societies, ethnicities, races, not as outsiders in a racially and culturally different west.

Racist much? I didn't think out and out racism and prejudice was tolerated here.
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11Bravo
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 116):
Until this kind of critical self-examination happens, the other six billion of us on this planet will continue to regard Islam with extreme suspicion, and Muslims living in Western nations will find their welcome mat increasingly wearing out. Patience is growing very, very thin in Europe, Australia and the US.

I think that is right on the mark. In the US we are in the process of re-evaluating several items that would result in significantly lower immigration and visitation from predominantly Islamic countries. Student visa policy and acceptance of political refugee are in the process of review and revision. I suspect that both of those will be reduced dramatically.
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 7:14 pm

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 111):
Didn't see the press conference but it wouldn't surprise if went something a long the lines of, "we don't agree with it, Islam is a peaceful religion, nothing to do with us, not our problem" which is what most of these things end up sounding like. Well I'm afraid it is their problem, these people are embedded in their community and use it to go undetected as they plot these horrendous crimes. It's about time these "community leaders" started tackling the problem instead of inadvertently shielding them through their inaction.

Whilst I believe the MCB are very sincere in what they say, and i'm sure they are shocked and appalled at what has happened.

How about some action. A real effort to out the hate preachers. Zero tolerance of violence carried out in the name of Islam.

Back up the words with action.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
corinthians
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 7:19 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 130):
Yeah but they are non white and not paranoid as you imagine, for you all its more a white west vs islam thing, for them there is nothing like that, yes there are issues but not like yours. They are in their own countries, societies, ethnicities, races, not as outsiders in a racially and culturally different west.

You are saying this is only a White vs Islam issue and that is not true. All most majorities of those countries (and probably many others) do have deep suspicions over Islam. Have you ever been to any of those countries? Ever spoke with the local populations there? Good luck finding a group of Muslims from the Western provinces in Shanghai or Beijing. They simply don't allow them there. And why would that be? Because they love them and aren't worried about them?

And what about Russia? Russia has been at war against one of their Muslim provinces for centuries. Russia is hardly considered a Western nation. That doesn't sound like a country without serious issues against Islam.

Thailand has been at war with the Muslim Southern provinces for decades, if not more. And the Philippines? Fighting a de-facto war in their Southern provinces.

Chinese population of Indonesia? How come so many of them fled?

Sounds like they have way bigger issues than we in the West do and are fighting against it a lot harder.

List could go on...
 
777way
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 7:19 pm



Quoting corinthians (Reply 135):
You are saying this is only a White vs Islam issue and that is not true.

its very true, youre just trying to make yourself feel good the world is with you all its not like that, they are muslisms in their own communities and countries, its like a black sheep in a flock of white, not a wolf amongst sheep as you all see it.

Chinese community in Indonesia? how about putting it as minority Chinese in majority muslim but politically secular Indonesia.

[Edited 2013-05-23 12:26:45]
 
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OA260
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 7:29 pm

Quoting corinthians (Reply 129):
Copts? Lebanese/Syrian Christians? They all have problems with Islamic terrorism and all view Islam with as much if not more suspicion than the West.

Well I guess when you live in Egypt / Syria / Iraq and Lebanon to name a few and certain Islamic groups are actively trying to wipe you out 24/7 you cant blame them. As recent as March in Lahore ,Pakistan 178 houses were set alight and 2 churches burned. The mob consisted of several thousand so its not small minorities taking part. No wonder they are suspicious.

Quoting 777way (Reply 130):
not paranoid as you imagine

Really not from my personal experience.

Today a number of Muslim groups have come out and condemned the attacks in London. Stronger language was seen than usual so either they truly are at a watershed or they fear not coming out with these statements. I guess actions will speak louder than words. They most certainly knew they had to do something to calm the tensions. They need to really ramp up the structures to ''out'' these types of extremists from within their communities. There is no more room for turning a blind eye.


As for the victim he has been named as Lee Rigby 25 years old from Manchester. He had a 2 year old Son.

RIP

 
777way
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 7:35 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 137):
Well I guess when you live in Egypt / Syria / Iraq and Lebanon to name a few and certain Islamic groups are actively trying to wipe you out 24/7 you cant blame them. As recent as March in Lahore ,Pakistan 178 houses were set alight and 2 churches burned. The mob consisted of several thousand so its not small minorities taking part. No wonder they are suspicious.

Still their own people, have you looked at what Punjabi Christians look like compared to muslims of the same background, not an iota of difference, the same people, same country, same culture, race, ethnicity, only a different religion, same applies to all countries listed.

If white western muslims were creating a mess in western socities it would be similar but nothing like a non white muslim immigrant doing the same in western countries.

Quoting corinthians (Reply 135):


And what about Russia? Russia has been at war against one of their Muslim provinces for centuries. Russia is hardly considered a Western nation. That doesn't sound like a country without serious issues against Islam.

Thailand has been at war with the Muslim Southern provinces for decades, if not more. And the Philippines? Fighting a de-facto war in their Southern provinces.

Chinese population of Indonesia? How come so many of them fled?

Sounds like they have way bigger issues than we in the West do and are fighting against it a lot harder.

List could go on...

Again nothing like west with non western immigrant muslims,, those are people in their own countries and societies, ieven if there is mistrust, comparing apples with oranges.

[Edited 2013-05-23 12:44:46]
 
GDB
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 7:51 pm

House searches and arrests are continuing, including elsewhere in the UK. Whether any kind of cell is being rolled up or it's precautionary for questioning known associates, remains to be seen.

With all the stuff on this thread about aspects of Muslim's in the UK, elsewhere, worth remembering that a man was jailed for a long time, in 2007, for plotting to kidnap and behead, on video, a British Muslim soldier.

Last week, at ceremonies to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the RAF's Dambusters raid, along with preserved WW2 aircraft in the flypast, there were two Tornado GR.4's of today's 617 Squadron, one was piloted by a RAF officer named Mahmood Abdullah.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 7:52 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 131):
Sure sounds like a couple of idiots to me.

Unfortunately these idiots were able to brutally take the life of an innocent man in the middle of the day while praising Allah and preaching hate again Britain and its people. It was done with a clear message and that's terrorism, not just another London stabbing.
 
corinthians
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 8:00 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 138):
Again nothing like west with non western immigrant muslims,, those are people in their own countries and societies, ieven if there is mistrust, comparing apples with oranges.
Quoting 777way (Reply 136):
ts very true, youre just trying to make yourself feel good the world is with you all its not like that, they are muslisms in their own communities and countries, its like a black sheep in a flock of white, not a wolf amongst sheep as you all see it.

You are either completely blind or delusional. If you choose not to see the facts and what really goes on in these other countries, well, that’s your prerogative then. Either that or you seem to have an issue with only Caucasians. Does that make you a racist?

Quoting 777way (Reply 136):
Chinese community in Indonesia? how about putting it as minority Chinese in majority muslim but politically secular Indonesia.

What are you saying? The Chinese have no reason to be in Muslim Indonesia? Indonesia is supposed to be a democracy, right? What are your thoughts of the anti-Chinese riots, then?
 
777way
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 8:20 pm

List could go on...[/quote]

Quoting corinthians (Reply 141):
You are either completely blind or delusional.

You are delusional, trying to equate issues of muslims in their own native cultures amongst their own non-muslim people, with muslim immigrants in western countries.

if you sister turns muslim and starts bothering you is it really the same to you as say if your African tenant turns muslim and starts harassing you?

Quoting corinthians (Reply 141):
What are you saying? The Chinese have no reason to be in Muslim Indonesia? Indonesia is supposed to be a democracy, right? What are your thoughts of the anti-Chinese riots, then?

They are basically Chinese Indonesians, atleast the Chinese community in Pakistan calls itself Pakistani Chinese., and they have every right to stay,, but they are not native to the country, unlike say native christian and hindu indnesianiaans.

You are trying to make it like kids when they gang up against someone and even try to make that other kids siblings and cousins or friends dislike him/her to show the ostracized one that everyone has issues with them.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 8:24 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 120):
just to clarify a point. The first post by this member set the tone, in my belief, in a context of 'us vs. them':

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 56):
come on west have some courage

Hmm...well he's correct to a point (whatever the context). The way it sounds from this story and others, the UK has a real problem making controversial decisions.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 120):
I took 'west' to mean the western hemisphere or western nations, not short for Westy.

Well the way the convo went, he might have meant both  
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 123):
I think this murder is being blown all out of proportion to what it really was, two idiots stabbing a guy to death on the side of a road. I don't think that fact that these twits were muslim means anything, it's more of a hate crime than anything else.

Surely you understand the difference between "two Muslim idiots stabbing a guy to death" and "two Muslim idiots stabbing a guy to death with a political motivation"?

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 123):
Turning it into a media circus doesn't make sense to me

Never really does. It rarely helps.

Quoting 777way (Reply 128):
non whites don't really care, so make that a fraction, yes theres trouble off and on in some non white countries

Why are you calling out white people? This is not a race issue. Also keeping in mind that there are scores of white Muslims. I happen to know a handful.

Quoting 777way (Reply 130):
Yeah but they are non white and not paranoid as you imagine

Tell that to the Christians in Nigeria...
Flying refined.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 8:29 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 139):
Last week, at ceremonies to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the RAF's Dambusters raid, along with preserved WW2 aircraft in the flypast, there were two Tornado GR.4's of today's 617 Squadron, one was piloted by a RAF officer named Mahmood Abdullah.

Yup. A while ago I met a Bundeswehr sergeant with the name Özbakir. Guess what his religion was. A colleague of mine hails from Aserbeijan. He is a Muslim. But he has no kind words for the Salafist and Wahabi extremists in neighbouring Chechnia. He supports the Russian hardline politics there.
Within the British military there exists the AFMA, the Armed Forces Muslim Association
http://www.afma.org.uk/
There have been Muslim soldiers in the British forces since several hundred years (mainly though their former colonies).
Guess who´se side they´ll be on? Hint: It won´t be the religious fanatics.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
RussianJet
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Thu May 23, 2013 8:33 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 142):
indnesianiaans.

The who now??
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NAV20
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Fri May 24, 2013 1:39 am

Pretty good summary of the current situation here:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ma...lwich-attack-soldier-lee-rigby-mi5

A couple of points rather caught my eye:-

"The suspects, shot by police shortly after the incident, remain in separate but unidentified hospitals, too badly injured to be questioned.

-----------------

"Police tried to rebut claims of a delayed response saying they were first called to reports of a man being attacked in the street at 14.20. Four minutes later they were told by witnesses that one attacker had a gun, at which point, 14.24, officers in an armed response vehicle which patrols London's streets, were ordered to the scene.

"Five minutes later, at 14.29, the first unarmed officers arrived at the scene, and at 14.34 armed officers arrived and two of them opened fire, and a Taser was also fired."


Looks like the police didn't mess around once they arrived. And the point about the 'suspects' being too badly injured to be questioned strongly suggests that the police shot both of them through the body, didn't try to 'disable' them or anything. Good for them.............

And this bit very much implies that the 'talker' may well have been 'schooled' by radical Muslims:-

"His family were churchgoing Christians of Nigerian heritage but he converted to Islam about 10 years ago and investigators are trying to establish how he became radicalised to the point that he may have committed violence."

[Edited 2013-05-23 18:45:43]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Fri May 24, 2013 1:47 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 146):
And the point about the 'suspects' being too badly injured to be questioned strongly suggests that the police shot both of them through the body, didn't try to 'disable' them or anything

Probably beside the point you are trying to make, but every police department I've ever seen teaches more or less the same thing when it comes to firearms. It always enrages me to see people trashing police officers for not "just shooting them in the arm or leg" or something. There is a reason they aim for center mass--it is the easiest to hit (and don't forget, not hitting may equal collateral damage and aiming with a handgun is not like the movies) and when a cop actually shoots a gun, the situation warrants possibly deadly force... guns are never used in situations where you killing the suspect is completely unacceptable. In other words, the situation should be to the point where if the suspect dies, it's the fault of the attacker only, I'm sure the officers, when shooting, hope their bullets stop and don't kill, but the point isn't to just knock a knife out of their hands.

I hope these guys see justice. I'm not in the torture them or execute them publicly crowd, I'm just against that kind of behavior despite their grizzly actions
 
sfbdude
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Fri May 24, 2013 2:11 am

http://www.itv.com/news/2013-05-23/m...rmined-to-stay-united-in-woolwich/
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-...s-condemn-evil-attack-in-woolwich/


Since were bringing religion into this, this page is pretty much a one stop shop for info. No sense in debating it here.

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ex-useful-threads.html#post1542964



This is a genuine Islamic forum with mixed members. None of that 'how to answer Islam' bs.
 
NAV20
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Fri May 24, 2013 2:34 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 147):
Probably beside the point you are trying to make

Not at all, DeltaMD90 - in fact I was taught exactly the same in the army, about half a century ago........  

Story also confirms two further arrests:-

"Detectives investigating Rigby's death also arrested a 29-year-old man and woman on suspicion of conspiracy to murder the soldier, suggesting there may have been a wider conspiracy to carry out the attack. The 29-year-old woman was arrested at a flat in Greenwich, south-east London."

Quoting SFBDude (Reply 148):
Since were bringing religion into this

With respect, SFBDude, surely religion has been 'in it' from the start? I thought that it was of interest that the guy was brought up as a Christian and only converted about ten years ago? And the story also records that he was 'tutored' by a known extremist?

"The extremist cleric Omar Bakri Mohammad, who has been expelled from Britain, told the Guardian he had tutored Adebolajo in Islam after he converted to the religion in 2003. He was the former leader of al-Muhajiroun, an organisation banned for professing extremist views. Mohammad described Adebolajo as a shy man who had been angered by the Iraq invasion, and who would ask questions about when violence was justified."

Please don't think that I'm condemning the whole Muslim religion. But it's becoming increasingly clear that there do appear to be extremist groups in Britain (and no doubt other places) who are actually recruiting and 'pre-programming' youngsters to conspire and commit these crimes?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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mariner
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RE: Possible Beheading On London Street

Fri May 24, 2013 2:43 am

I'm cheering the women.

The woman who asked to be allowed to comfort or protect the dead or dying man and two women who stood by her.

The woman who engaged one of the killers to keep him there till the cops came and the policewoman who brought down the killers.

mariner
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