Moderators: richierich, ua900, hOMSaR

 
kaitak
Topic Author
Posts: 9844
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Thu May 30, 2013 5:00 pm

The last few months have seen huge protests in France against gay marriage and although the legislation has gone through and the first gay marriage has taken place, the reaction to it has - I would imagine - shattered a few preconceptions about France and the French.

Gay marriage is nothing new in Europe; Scandinavian countries have it, Spain, Holland and Belgium have it and Britain will soon have it (and with much less reaction than France), so why has the French reaction been so strong against it?

Sure, the Catholic Church in France, which has always been strongly right wing, has been strongly against it, but even still, how much power did they wield; we've been hearing for years that Church attendance in France has been low and declining and limited to the elderly, so it can't be that alone. Sure, the right wing parties like FN, have been against it, but again, their electoral success has been low.

So, what is it? What is the basis of this objection? I don't claim to know a lot about France's road to gay marriage; did they have a civil partnership law before this? Do those who object to it, object to any legal rights for gay couples; is it just homophobia? Or would they be more accepting if the adoption rights were taken out?

Discussez-vous ...
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Thu May 30, 2013 5:54 pm

I have a theory, may be way off, but I've noticed it for a while. Feel free to tear down my theory. The US is more anti-gay (hard to deny) and is generally more right leaning than European countries so I think it attracts most of the criticism. When you really look at it though, it seems like most "western countries" (I include Australia and NZ in that too) aren't exactly the friendliest to gays. Just a couple decades ago, IIRC, gay marriage and civil partnerships were basically unheard of. Even today, you see a ton of western countries that don't get attacked for being anti-gay lacking gay marriage, France had some bumps as we've seen, NZ or Australia (apologies, I forgot) has had/have a little trouble with it.

So yeah, as far as gay rights go, the US seems to be towards the back of the pack but most of the pack isn't a beacon of freedom and civil rights. Maybe they aren't as hostile towards gays as the vocal, high profile US, but they still have a long way to go
 
Rara
Posts: 2309
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Thu May 30, 2013 7:40 pm

I'm baffled as well.

Now, anyone who knows the first thing about France knows that France is, in essence, a right-wing country. There is a popular image about "French lefties", which is a particularly strong in America, but it's never been more than a misconception, perhaps due to the Parisian left-wing intelligentsia. The true French heartland, strongly influenced by the church and by rural attitudes, has always had a solid conservative stance. Statist, yes - the European Right has always had a penchant for a strong state - but morally and structurally conservative.

And still, I find the events around the gay marriage legislation hard to explain. In terms of political culture, more often than not France and Germany are on the same page. Part of my job is to analyze sociodemographic indicators and public opinion across European countries, and one reliable rule of thumb is that Germany and France are in the same quadrant, in how people feel and speak about issues. But on the gay marriage issue, I don't sense any similarity in how the subject is treated here and there. France is the "odd one out" in Western Europe now. The same reaction would likely happen in any given Eastern European country, but in the case of France it really surprises me.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
squared
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 1:48 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Thu May 30, 2013 7:50 pm

It's a bit odd, isn't it?

France has generally cultivated an image of being highly secular and progressive, and yet the protests against same sex marriage have been very intense. It's unlike any other experience for a European country that has allowed SSM. Even heavily Catholic countries like Portugal and Spain did not witness such turmoil when same sex legislation was passed.

I don't profess to know a lot about French domestic politics, so I would be curious to get a French perspective. Certainly, it seems there is a very strong right-wing contingent in France (the Front National) - but it must be more complex than that.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12789
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Thu May 30, 2013 8:29 pm

The Church is not right wing per se, they're against liberalism. Against divorce, abortion etc., but also against free markets and very much in favor of socialist economic policies. In fact the French Catholic Church had much influence in making the Roman one more modern, with Vatican II, ditching the Mass in Latin and things like that. Now it has lost influence both because it isn't strong enough in France and because Catholicism is strong in conservative new world countries.

The reasons for the protests are numerous, it's a combination of factors. The economic crisis plays a role, with strong pessimism in France, the sentiment that "everything is going wrong", so a change like gay marriage will go in the same direction. There is also the leader of the movement at first, Frigide Barjot, who managed to make it all about "saving the children", an argument that can lead to many things, including an MP accusing the left of "assassinating our children" in the National Assembly.

Then there is the usual sentiment in the French right that the left has no legitimacy in power, that they win elections by accident or by lying or whatever. One year after their defeat they haven't started to analyze the reasons for it, they still say that had the campaign lasted 2 more weeks they would have won ! When the leaders say this, then a portion of their electorate believes it, so it leads to ridiculous demands like the resigning of the government or the president.

Also, the right isn't used to protesting in France, last time they did it was in 1984 against a law that would nationalize all Catholic schools (see a common theme there ?), so when the first protest turned out to be an unexpected success (leveraging what internet can do nowadays to organize and mobilize people), many people of all ages thought they could also participate, and overturn the law or maybe even take back power from those bad socialists. It got to their head if you wish.

The most interesting part is that many a right-wing politician is not really against the law, only opposing it because it comes from the other side, so when they're now saying they'll abolish it at the first opportunity, they're lying through their teeth. The most honest ones avoid to say it, or frankly admit that they'll never touch it, just like they didn't touch the 35h work week while castigating it constantly.

Nobody expected such reactions but in the end it's win-win for president Hollande, he showed his will, reunited his camp, while dividing the right wing. For example a young and charismatic leader of the UMP (Sarkozy's party) is calling for people to vote against Paris mayor primary candidate NKM (Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet) because she abstained instead of voting against the law. NKM is the only hope the right has (and not that great of a hope) of getting Paris back from the socialists/greens currently at the helm.

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
I don't claim to know a lot about France's road to gay marriage; did they have a civil partnership law before this?

Yes there is the PACS since 1999-2000 (when the socialists were last in power), a civil partnership for two people of any sex, 90% of those are concluded by straight couples. There were also protests at the time, but less so. There were calls during the 2002-2012 period of right wing governments, including from inside the UMP party, to add rights to the PACS (right to get the pension of your partner if (s)he dies for example, rights over the children of the other, things like that) but nothing was done, then they act surprised when the left goes "all out" and extend the civil marriage instead, a pledge made in the early 2000s.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12789
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Thu May 30, 2013 8:39 pm

Quoting squared (Reply 3):
Even heavily Catholic countries like Portugal and Spain did not witness such turmoil when same sex legislation was passed.

I don't profess to know a lot about French domestic politics, so I would be curious to get a French perspective. Certainly, it seems there is a very strong right-wing contingent in France (the Front National) - but it must be more complex than that.

Portugal and Spain were in an economic boom at the time. I think there were a couple of very big protests in Spain though, but maybe no incidents at the end.

The Front National is not really right wing anymore, well, it's complicated, they're mainly populist, saying things like "we get out of Europe and we'll add 200€ to the minimum wage". FN sympathizers are not that against the law, much less so than UMP ones. In the UMP you have all the right wing/christian democrat catholic bourgeoisie, while the FN now has mainly the poor that don't care one way or the other. The incidents were caused by far right extremists, neo-nazis, royalists and the like, that were FN or associated with it in the past, but now ostracized out of it, since FN leader Marine Le Pen is not happy with a fringe party, she wants power so she wants to appear less crazy.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Thu May 30, 2013 8:52 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
When you really look at it though, it seems like most "western countries" (I include Australia and NZ in that too) aren't exactly the friendliest to gays.

Whoa. While I agree about Australia (and I'm Australian) where poofter-bashing is still a national sport in the Parliament, the same cannot be said for New Zealand.

Recently, same-sex marriage was made legal in New Zealand, and when the law was passed, the Parliament broke into song, all on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9pOJ8Bc_-g

"New Zealand Parliament passes gay marriage bill -- and a love song."

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Thu May 30, 2013 9:13 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
Whoa. While I agree about Australia (and I'm Australian) where poofter-bashing is still a national sport in the Parliament, the same cannot be said for New Zealand.

I apologize, I wasn't sure if it was one country or the other (or both.) I'm sure it isn't the first time someone has mixed up an Australian and a New Zealander  
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2596
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Thu May 30, 2013 9:16 pm

What many in the US and other western countries probably don't understand also is the political culture of protest in France. Basically, if you have a view you're willing to express, then you're not credible, not real, unless you march on the street iand have a loud message, supported by multitudes, whom you have an equal duty to rally.

Paris has demonstration ("manifestation") forecasts like most cities have traffic and weather forecasts. These are need by taxi drivers in order to get to their destinations...

In this case, Catholic and UMP groups went into overdrive to muster 100's of 1000's and on numerous occaissions.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 6931
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Thu May 30, 2013 10:03 pm

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
Sure, the Catholic Church in France, which has always been strongly right wing, has been strongly against it

It's already been said but Catholic Church isn't right wing. It's quite conservative on many aspects of life and right wing people are generally (very?) conservative, they are nicknamed "the old France".

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
Sure, the right wing parties like FN, have been against it, but again, their electoral success has been low.

I wasn't listen very carefully, but on Monday, I watched the TV program "C dans l'air" and I seem to remember that it was said Miss Le Pen wasn't against the new law.

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
So, what is it? What is the basis of this objection?

As already mentioned in a previous thread, there are those from the churches that are against the destruction of the family and its traditional values, there is the rather conservative bourgeoisie that is against such "civilization change", there are those who use just about any reason to protest against the President, especially since he is from the left wing, meaning he shouldn't be there even though he was democratically elected and I'm sure I'm missing a few other points.
 
User avatar
GrahamHill
Posts: 3016
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:35 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Thu May 30, 2013 11:57 pm

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
so why has the French reaction been so strong against it?

Like OzGlobal said, it's because we like to protest for anything. I think it's in our blood. And as long as you have a group who disagrees, you'll have a protest. And sometimes, you'll have the "counter-protest", which is a group of people protesting against the other group protesting. Often you will see political figures leading the march. It's a French tradition.

This anti gay-marriage movement will settle down at some stage. It's just a matter of being patient  
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2765
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Fri May 31, 2013 3:16 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 2):
Now, anyone who knows the first thing about France knows that France is, in essence, a right-wing country. There is a popular image about "French lefties", which is a particularly strong in America, but it's never been more than a misconception, perhaps due to the Parisian left-wing intelligentsia. The true French heartland, strongly influenced by the church and by rural attitudes, has always had a solid conservative stance. Statist, yes - the European Right has always had a penchant for a strong state - but morally and structurally conservative.

Probably the best summation to answer the OP's question. France projects a certain liberal image around the world, but that's mainly because that's the way it is in Paris, and France is incredibly Paris-centric. But for the French in France, Paris is almost like it's own world, ask any French person living outside Paris and they'll tell you that Parisians think that the world (and France) revolves around them.

Essentially, outside of Paris, there is still a lot of cultural conservatism and antagonism towards Paris which never really is represented to the outside world where the Parisian image is the one that dominates the world's conceptions of France.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):
What many in the US and other western countries probably don't understand also is the political culture of protest in France.

   I've never seen a culture more oriented towards protest or demonstration than France.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5188
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Fri May 31, 2013 4:34 am

Let's not forget that, thankfully, a vast majority of the population is pro gay marriage (>70% according to polls).

What we are witnessing is a minority of people being very vocal about it and making a disproportionate mess of it.
Let's just wait for these idiots to lose their breaths and calm down. I'm sure they will one day realize it changes nothing whatsoever to their lives...

But yes, we are a protesting nation.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
trav110
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:49 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Fri May 31, 2013 4:59 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 12):
What we are witnessing is a minority of people being very vocal about it and making a disproportionate mess of it.

A few days ago I read an article about the protests on BBC news that highlighted this.

The police say there were roughly 150,000 protesters, yet organizers overstate that figure by over 800,000, claiming there were nearly 1 million people out fighting it. It sounds to me like a dying movement clinging on to every last shred of legitimacy it has left to try to stay relevant.
 
AF1624
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:57 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Fri May 31, 2013 6:59 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):
that the left has no legitimacy in power

Only my personal opinion but I think this has some truth to it.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):
Paris has demonstration ("manifestation") forecasts like most cities have traffic and weather forecasts. These are need by taxi drivers in order to get to their destinations...

Absolutely.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 10):
Like OzGlobal said, it's because we like to protest for anything. I think it's in our blood.

Exactly. I would add to this, that had the months of March, April and May been sunnier, with a nicer weather, the protests would have lasted a lot longer. It's just a very good excuse for people to go out, gather, and do something outside. Regardless of their beliefs.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 11):
France projects a certain liberal image around the world, but that's mainly because that's the way it is in Paris, and France is incredibly Paris-centric.


This is both true and untrue IMO.

True because it does project a liberal image around the world, and it is Paris centric.

Not so true because you seem to imply that the French are not liberal per se, which I wouldn't agree with. Which brings me to this point :

Quoting francoflier (Reply 12):
Let's not forget that, thankfully, a vast majority of the population is pro gay marriage (>70% according to polls).

What we are witnessing is a minority of people being very vocal about it and making a disproportionate mess of it.
Let's just wait for these idiots to lose their breaths and calm down. I'm sure they will one day realize it changes nothing whatsoever to their lives...

Francoflier is spot on there.

The vast majority of the French people is actually very liberal.

And the majority of the French people is also atheist, agnostic, or very lightly Christian (by this I mean they believe that there is something out there, but do not necessarily believe in all the bible spiel, and think of it as a philosophy rather than hard facts - you'll seldom find any creationists in France for example - people with these beliefs here would be regarded as... hum ... crazy, for want of a better word).

What this is, much in the same way protests happened when Benedict XVI left, is groups of conservative Catholics trying to show that they still exist, that they still matter and still have a voice in this country. Which they don't, as has been proven by this law.

Remember the French are mostly pro-choice, we invented the French kiss, and sex during the day, and the ménage à trois. We are very much liberal.

And this is partly why these groups try to have a voice. They see our society as one that is decaying because of that social liberalism. They think that everything's going wrong, and that everything that they have believed since they were indoctrinated at birth, is disappearing, at the hand of hippy leftists. In truth, it's like someone having a crisis for one thing, but that's only the tip of the iceberg, and the person deep inside is having identity problems...

For them to have to demonstrate so vehemently just says they have to remind everyone else (and convince themselves) that they too are French. That speaks a lot about how important they are now. Not very. Which brings me nicely to this:

Quoting trav110 (Reply 13):
The police say there were roughly 150,000 protesters, yet organizers overstate that figure by over 800,000, claiming there were nearly 1 million people out fighting it. It sounds to me like a dying movement clinging on to every last shred of legitimacy it has left to try to stay relevant.

Spot on.
Cheers
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14894
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Fri May 31, 2013 11:09 am

I wonder if Gay Marriage is a 'distraction' issue for the right wing parties in France, to offset from their push for unpopular austerity budgets they have pushed for and got.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12789
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Fri May 31, 2013 12:25 pm

There is something to that. It's not exactly austerity (no lowering of pensions or things like that) but they don't ask for that as it's a foul word in France, however they do hammer on "reducing spending" without going into too much detail of course, "reforming the work rules", "reforming pensions". Problem is, the government is doing exactly that, so it's difficult to be credibly opposed to it for them (they still find excuses to not vote the laws, of course).

Gay marriage was a good subject however, at least for now.

In the end it won't help them and they really have to find a new platform and credible leaders. Current UMP president Jean-François Copé has been "elected" last November in an election so full of fraud and misgivings that books have been written about it, and his already low public appeal has sunk to ridiculous levels, while his opponent (former prime minister François Fillon) is not much better since he has to explain how he didn't manage to steer the country in the direction he advocates while he was in power for 5 years.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
GrahamHill
Posts: 3016
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:35 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Fri May 31, 2013 1:57 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 11):
Paris is almost like it's own world, ask any French person living outside Paris and they'll tell you that Parisians think that the world (and France) revolves around them.

You're absolutely correct   

Quoting francoflier (Reply 12):
Let's just wait for these idiots to lose their breaths and calm down. I'm sure they will one day realize it changes nothing whatsoever to their lives...

You, too, are absolutely correct   

Quoting trav110 (Reply 13):
The police say there were roughly 150,000 protesters, yet organizers overstate that figure by over 800,000, claiming there were nearly 1 million people out fighting it. It sounds to me like a dying movement clinging on to every last shred of legitimacy it has left to try to stay relevant.

In our country, there is always a huge difference between the figures given by the organizers and the figures given by the police. The organizers always have a tendency to inflate the numbers to make us believe the movement is strong. In this video, they show the man responsible for counting the amount of people during a Union protest in Marseille few months ago. Even if you don't speak French, it's quite funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiZbpyMcr4A.

What you always have to believe is the figures given by the police.
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
AF1624
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:57 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Fri May 31, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 17):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiZbpyMcr4A

Ahah, I remember watching this video when it happened, so funny.

And very true, a good idea of the gross overestimation of demonstrations in France.
Cheers
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2596
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Fri May 31, 2013 4:31 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 11):

Probably the best summation to answer the OP's question. France projects a certain liberal image around the world, but that's mainly because that's the way it is in Paris, and France is incredibly Paris-centric. But for the French in France, Paris is almost like it's own world, ask any French person living outside Paris and they'll tell you that Parisians think that the world (and France) revolves around them.

I don't think that's what this is about. Whilst there is truth to what you say, it does not explain the dichotomy of global perception of France as 'liberal' and conservative behaviour of large sectors of society. The fact is that this conservative, radically family-centric sub-culture is still a massive population of bourgeois who live in large numbers not only in the provinces but also in Paris: Versailles, 7th, 16th, etc... France, like most places, is not socio-politically homogeneous...
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12789
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Fri May 31, 2013 5:17 pm

Yes they're socially conservative but not in the sense that you can see in the US, no gay bashing by conservative politicians, no one to suggest banning abortion or things like that, and certainly no mention of the bible or religion in the public debate. They're just not the ones behind "progressive" laws, but go along usually (in fact abortion and the pill were legalized under right-wing governments in the 70's).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
GrahamHill
Posts: 3016
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:35 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Fri May 31, 2013 5:54 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
in fact abortion and the pill were legalized under right-wing governments in the 70's

It's true that the abortion law was iniated by Simone Veil who was part of the Jacques Chirac government. However, most of the right-wing deputies voted against. The law went through thanks to the left and center deputies (ref: http://tpe-histoire-avortement.e-mon...-avortement/le-vote-de-la-loi.html )

(edited to fix the link...)

[Edited 2013-05-31 10:56:06]
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2765
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Fri May 31, 2013 7:54 pm

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 14):
Not so true because you seem to imply that the French are not liberal per se, which I wouldn't agree with.

It's difficult to say really because just when you think you have the French figured out, they'll turn around and surprise you. In many matters of state the majority of French are definitely Left-leaning, but then on certain issues they're right of center, so on one hand the French legalize gay marriage, but then they'll turn around and ban the burqa, always a fascinating dynamic to me.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 19):
Versailles, 7th, 16th, etc... France, like most places, is not socio-politically homogeneous...

Of course Paris isn't 100% homogeneous when it comes to politics, but I really don't think it's a mischaracterization to say that Parisian values, more often than not, usually aren't always shared by those who live in the other departments.
 
AF1624
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:57 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Fri May 31, 2013 8:35 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 22):
but then they'll turn around and ban the burqa

Actually, the burqa was banned on the grounds of liberalism.

The idea that a woman should hide herself is unthinkable for the French, especially if she does so because her husband or family says she has to.

Note that the burqa is not the only thing that got banned: any outstanding religious symbol (a massive cross, star of david, crescent, burqa or whatever) cannot be worn in an overly visible way in public places such as schools, hospitals, etc.

This is very much an anti-religious-conservatism law, rather than a purely christian conservative law.
Cheers
 
Tupolev160
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:07 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:46 am

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):

You could ask the same question about trees being uprooted in Turkey in a simple park and causing such big reaction...same thing. Could seem a little thing but the symbolism is powerful and simply a drop too much from governments that are stubbornly going against everything natural and human in these societies.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:17 am

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 24):
Could seem a little thing but the symbolism is powerful and simply a drop too much from governments that are stubbornly going against everything natural and human in these societies.

They are?

My sexuality is as natural to me as breathing. For me to pretend to be anything other would be "un-natural."

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
kiwiinoz
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:07 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:00 am

Being a few months ahead, with gay marriage already passed in New Zealand, I have had time to think a little more about this.

Gay marriage is an issue which carried far more weight of perception and PR value than actual real value for the people it legislates, (ie, gay people that would like to get married.).

Those who oppose it have been somehow misled into believing that this legislation will break down society. In terms of support, it has an overwhelming support from a huge number of people who will never directly benefit from the legislation.

Hence, it's true. It gets played out as far bigger deal than it should. It also therefore is a hot political debate.

I am all for gay marriage but also wish it hadn't burned through as much parliamentary time, press tiime, etc. There are other issues. Lets get on with them.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:25 am

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 26):
Gay marriage is an issue which carried far more weight of perception and PR value than actual real value for the people it legislates, (ie, gay people that would like to get married.).

Hmmmm. Well, on one level I agree with you but I think it goes much, much deeper than that and I think that, in NZ, it is of incalculable value to future generations.

I won't bore you with a long post about what it is like to grow up on the outer of society, to live, as I did for so long, knowing that expressing my sexuality made me a criminal (and despised, even today, by a not small percentage of that society) but I wish that I had not had to spend so much of life fighting those battles. Many often tried to mke me feel like "a lesser person." I survived, but I am preternaturally optimistic and even I wonder what might my life might have been, without that.

Equality makes a difference to the unequal and I think the most important words in the debate in France were said by the Minister of Justice, Christine Taubira, after the successful vote.

Towards the end of her great speech she directly addresses the young, whose parents might have been demonstrating against equality and might - might - have been frightened or damaged by that, or those young who simply watched so many protest and felt - belittled, disparaged, not worthy.

http://joesreport.tumblr.com/post/48...ter-of-justice-christiane-taubiras

Tonight, we would especially like to speak to the adolescents in our country - boys and girls - who have been hurt during this debate. We speak to those children who found themselves in the midst of deep and frightening chaos. They discovered a society where a wave of selfishness led many to loudly protest against the rights of others.

We simply want to tell these adolescents that they are at home in our society.

We recognize them in this society. We recognize their contradictions, talents, shortcomings, qualities and fragility. These are the things that make each and every one of us unique. Regardless of any sexual issues, each one of us is unique. That is the strength of our society. It is even the basis of our society. It is the basis of our relationship to society. So we tell these adolescents: if you find yourself losing hope, sweep all of those thoughts out of your minds. They are only words. One day they will float away. Stay with us and keep your heads high. You have nothing to be ashamed of. We say that loud and clear, with our all the strength in our voices. As Nietzsche said: Truth kills. And if you repress it, it will kill you.


It seems that someone should have to point out the consequences of the demonstrations but it is something had to be said and - hopefully - understood by some, gay and straight.

The emotional stability of the young surely is crucial. Rightly or wrongly, we spend fortunes on an education system in New Zealand that tries to encourage a sense of self-worth in the young.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12789
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:20 am

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 24):
You could ask the same question about trees being uprooted in Turkey in a simple park and causing such big reaction...same thing. Could seem a little thing but the symbolism is powerful and simply a drop too much from governments that are stubbornly going against everything natural and human in these societies.

If you just want to make a political comparison, then in Turkey the government has authoritarian tendencies, and has been in power for more than 10 years, while French president Hollande is seen as too soft, letting ministers and legislators have differing opinions and come to an agreement themselves, and has been in power only one year. There is really no comparison, except that in both cases it's not supporters/former supporters protesting, but people that never wanted them in power to begin with.

Now if you want to go on the "hot" terrain of nature vs society or things like that, well, for most people in France gay marriage was always going to happen and they weren't opposing it, it has only become an issue recently, as I said after the classic "protect the children" fallacy has been used.

I would add that the famous femens, now a fixture in France and having protested the protests against gay marriage, the pope, etc., come from Ukraine, so I guess not everybody there is conservative either.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
kiwiinoz
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:07 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:41 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):

I do get this. Just the act of allowing gay marriage sends a message that the love between same-sex couples is considered equal to that of other couples, under law.

And I agree that is important

I would be interested to see how many gay couples actually get married. Many of my friends do appreciate the symbolism, but turn their nose up at the actual thought of marrying their partner. But that could just be my crazy friends
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:03 am

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 29):
I would be interested to see how many gay couples actually get married. Many of my friends do appreciate the symbolism, but turn their nose up at the actual thought of marrying their partner. But that could just be my crazy friends

Or crazy me. I have no desire to be married. I'm happy with what I am - a subversive queer.

But I have to wonder if that the is the societal conditioning that happened to me when I was young. Brought up to believe that I couldn't ever get married, that I was not a "proper" man, perhaps - perhaps - that coloured the rest of my life. Maybe that's why I became something of an over-achiever and often put myself in situations of some danger, to prove them all wrong - or to prove something to myself?

I've no idea how the young will cope with the idea of being virtually normal and marriage being accessible, even ordinary.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:16 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
I've no idea how the young will cope with the idea of being virtually normal and marriage being accessible, even ordinary.

I'm not gay, but I theorize that today's young LGBT people will view marriage the same way as young straight people will. I think (at least in the US) that more young LGBT people will be interested in marriage and catch up to the straight people's % but then start to decline as time goes on (from people in general not being interested in marriage as much.)

Might sound confusing, I don't really have a way with words. Basically, I see less people in general getting married as time goes on. Just seems to be the trend. Meanwhile, as being gay is less stigmatized, it will approach levels of straight people... like I said, catch up to their marriage rates but then decline just like straight marriage will probably decline.

I can only imagine what it was like for you, but I'm sure you found out at a young-ish age you were not going to live the normal life and never marry, so you blazed your own path. Maybe there was a time when you were young that you wished you could love who you wanted but have the normal life everyone else has. I think that is what young LGBT people are still asking now except it finally looks like that gay 16 year old has a shot of marrying just like his straight friends. He still faces persecution but he probably isn't cast out of society like you were, unfortunately.

And one last point, I think we'll reach a point where we are all queer... still not 100% on the definition, but basically I mean we'll reach a point where it won't matter at all. Being queer for most people will be loving who they love, which will be the opposite sex for the majority. But if a mostly straight guy gets drunk and messes around with another guy, harmless fun, no one will care or judge him. "Who cares? I don't find guys attractive but it never even enters my mind that the deed is taboo." That's where I think society will end up

PS: sorry, I go off on deep tangents when I get philosophical  Smile

[Edited 2013-06-03 21:16:46]
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:26 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
I've no idea how the young will cope with the idea of being virtually normal and marriage being accessible, even ordinary.

They will cope just like all of the other normal people I would suspect, like we touched on briefly again the other night regarding coming out not being an issue.

One day it will simply be that your sexual attraction is to your own gender and that's it. No further processing required. And they will do just fine.
International Homo of Mystery
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:50 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
PS: sorry, I go off on deep tangents when I get philosophical

I love tangents - I enjoyed it.  
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 32):
They will cope just like all of the other normal people I would suspect, like we touched on briefly again the other night regarding coming out not being an issue.

Certainly, they'll cope.

But there are a number of people, especially explorers, who achieved what they did because they were queer and were trying to prove themselves as "men."

Sir Richard Burton (the explorer not the film star) who married to avoid the stigma of his sexuality or John Hanning Speke, who really discovered the source of the Nile, and who shot himself rather than face up to the truth of himself.

Or T E Shaw - Lawrence of Arabia - who, I believe, did what he did for the love of young Arab, to prove himself to the beloved and give to him the gift of his people's freedom. The triumph was that he almost achieved it and the tragedy is that the young Arab died at the cusp of victory, at the gates of Damascus.

I'm sure there will be many who are as over-achieving, but the things that drive them may be very different.

mariner

[Edited 2013-06-03 22:13:47]
aeternum nauta
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:30 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
Maybe there was a time when you were young that you wished you could love who you wanted but have the normal life everyone else has. I think that is what young LGBT people are still asking now except it finally looks like that gay 16 year old has a shot of marrying just like his straight friends.

I can't talk for others, but there has never been a moment that I've ever desired to be coupled, so whether same-sex marriage was legal or not was never an issue for my own existence, even though I've supported the option of there being some type of legitimization of same-sex couples as an equality issue when it's come up.

My best friends over time have always felt the same way as I have on the issue of coupling, so I know others are out there.
International Homo of Mystery
 
User avatar
akiss20
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:50 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:36 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):

Delta, as per usual, I think you've hit the nail on the head here. I am a young-ish gay man (turning 22 in a few weeks) and have very much the attitude you describe. While obviously gay marriage wasn't legal while I was growing up, and isn't universally now, I always took it as a truth that it would be soon enough in my lifetime. A lot of other gay men my age I have met also feel the same way. As a result, I always have believed that by the time it was relevant to me, I could get married. It's a natural thing for me to want to do; I think they idea that gay men have to be this non-manogomous, anti-heterosexual, anti-establishment group is dying. I don't want the wife and 2.3 kids with the little house and white picket fence, but I do want what a lot of my hetero friends do: a permanent partner with whom to live my life. I think the "american dream" overall is changing, but with that change, more and more homosexual individuals are buying into it. It's not just something for "the breeders" anymore.
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:37 am

I'm not in France, I'm on the other side of the world, but - to those who are there - to what extent does death of Clement Meric change the debate?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22826642

"Clement Meric killing: France 'to dissolve' far-right group"

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12789
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:29 am

Some see a link with the earlier protests, others don't. If there is any it's indirect I'd say, basically the skinheads and similar "no brains" type have added to their ranks and motivation during the serial protests, have higher adrenaline levels, feel they can express their hatred more freely, but they never cared about the law, they just like to fight.

If there is any impact I would look at the Front National, they are usually the refuge party for these individuals, although Marine Le Pen has tried to ban them. In the past they were employed as muscle by the party.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
N1120A
Posts: 26557
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:56 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 2):
And still, I find the events around the gay marriage legislation hard to explain. In terms of political culture, more often than not France and Germany are on the same page. Part of my job is to analyze sociodemographic indicators and public opinion across European countries, and one reliable rule of thumb is that Germany and France are in the same quadrant, in how people feel and speak about issues.

France and Germany have a key difference - Germany is not, more or less, a culturally religious homogeneous country. Like Italy or Spain, France's cultural underpinnings are in the Catholic Church. While that's true in the more conservative places in Germany like Bayern, German is also the country of Martin Luther and has a strong, liberalized Protestant base.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 12):
What we are witnessing is a minority of people being very vocal about it and making a disproportionate mess of it.

Precisely.

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 23):
Actually, the burqa was banned on the grounds of liberalism.

Well, the real grounds were racism.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2596
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:23 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
Quoting AF1624 (Reply 23):
Actually, the burqa was banned on the grounds of liberalism.

Well, the real grounds were racism.

You seem very sure..... If you know the topic, you would understand that the burqa only refers to a total face covering, including, often including the eyes. You would also understand, I hope, that Islam is in no way, a "race." Muslims live in every corner of the globe and come from every ethnic origin.

France also has the largest muslim population in Europe, but has a secular public culture. The total covering of the body and face in public in order to conceal, to cut off this person from the public on religious was deemed by most people as in conflict with principles of the republic.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26557
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:43 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 39):
You would also understand, I hope, that Islam is in no way, a "race." Muslims live in every corner of the globe and come from every ethnic origin.

Good point - bigotry is the better word. That said, given that the majority of Moslems in France are of darker-than-average tone, it still works.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 39):
The total covering of the body and face in public in order to conceal, to cut off this person from the public on religious was deemed by most people as in conflict with principles of the republic.

Conflicts with the principles of freedoms of religion and speech to force people to do otherwise.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12789
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:16 pm

Well the US has a wide definition of those freedoms that most other countries don't have. In France this allows other muslims to take caricaturists to court over "offensive" drawings (though, fortunately, they lost).

As for the burqa, it is often worn by new converts, either third generation immigrants "rediscovering" their religion (of course, the burqa was never worn in the country of their roots) or white blue eyed non immigrants.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2596
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:06 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 39):
The total covering of the body and face in public in order to conceal, to cut off this person from the public on religious was deemed by most people as in conflict with principles of the republic.

Conflicts with the principles of freedoms of religion and speech to force people to do otherwise.

In the US, I haven't noticed the approval of nudism in public. Where's "freedom of speech" now? In the US you use "freedom of religion" to ban prayer in schools? In France "freedom of religion" also means you don't use religion as a means to refuse participation in society when in public: the total refusal to be identified is a refusal of society; no form of Islam historically requires the burqa: hence it cannot be a refusal by the state of religious liberty; even if it did, it would still be in conflict with the values of an open society; As it stands, Muslim women have many forms of viel, including full body, exposing the face, available.

Perhaps it is rather the readiness to pass judgement on the motives of the French with limited understanding of the facts that is more revealing of 'bigotry'?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:21 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 42):
In the US, I haven't noticed the approval of nudism in public. Where's "freedom of speech" now?

Nudity is a state and local level decision. Here in Oregon, you can walk down the street nude in most places as long as it isn't to titillate. Nude stripping has also been ruled a 1st amendment right—I believe we're the only state which now allows fully nude dancing where hard alcohol is served in the open. We also have clothing-optional beaches.

A recent application of the laws:

Airport Stripper Not Guilty of Indecent Exposure
International Homo of Mystery
 
luckyone
Posts: 2938
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:04 pm

It seems to me the only havoc, chaos, violence, and breakdown of society coming from gay marriage is coming from the people who publicly oppose it, not from the gays. Moral fiber? It should be noted that many of the areas with the highest church attendance also have the highest incidences of HIV, pornography subscriptions, domestic violence, and oddly, divorce.
If you were watching the Roland Garros Men's Final yesterday (woohoo Vamos Rafa! 8 titles!) there was an on-court protestor wielding a flare that some have said is a protest of gay marriage. There were several other loud protests during the final that interrupted the match for a few minutes.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 42):
In the US you use "freedom of religion" to ban prayer in schools?

It's not freedom of religion. It's the prevention of laws based on "the establishment of religion." As soon as you allow "prayer," you have to define prayer. Religions define and participate in prayer in many different ways. Many protestant denominations have radically different methods of prayer. If you allow Muslims to pray specifically, do you now have to provide them space? Stop classes two or three times a day specifically to let them go pray? It's just better to just leave prayer out of it and make it a personal, and not institutional thing. I don't need the school telling me when and how to pray. And if you are "truly faithful" as many Christians claim to be, there's a direct line between you and God anyway, you don't need some sacred time or ritual to talk to God. Do it on your own time and on your own turf because as soon as you start defining it (an "establishment of religion") in come the lobbyists saying theirs is the right one, and everybody else has it wrong. Better to piss them off and keep them away as best as possible than have to deal with them in the school, affecting the education of a child even more than they already are.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):

Wonderful. It should be noted that "marriage" as we know it isn't as traditional as people like to bang on about. It's a legal institution developed not that long ago in the grand scheme of things.
 
AyostoLeon
Posts: 745
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 3:09 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:09 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
Conflicts with the principles of freedoms of religion and speech to force people to do otherwise.

I like France and I love the way that it presents different facets on each visit. One moment a heroic leader is fleeing from the Boche to England, then he is opposed to Britain joining the EC, the next he is fleeing to the Boche from the French. One minute you wait for an hour for a meal and when you ask is it coming a snapped, "rien de poivre," is the response. At the next place they are charm itself. A country steeped in history and full of contradictions.

France, like every country on the planet will present different moods at different times. France has been very welcoming in accepting migrants from countries in northern Africa that were previously regarded as Departments, if I am not mistaken. Given that most (apart from the so-called pied noir) were Muslims I don't think that you can call France completely racist or anti-Muslim. But it may well be that as economic conditions changed for the worse people might look to those that they regard as different or outsiders as, if not the cause, part of the solution. But individual views are not the same as the position of the State.

With respect to the burqa, my first response was why should it matter how a woman dresses. Should not the question have been, how do the women themselves think about it. Some women that I know like to wear it and do so for different reasons. Some see it as something traditional and as part of their culture. Others see it as a defence against leering and sexual intimidation. Others see it as a protest against and response to what they see as hostility against Islam. Others detest it.

I also began to look at things in another way. I could see that in some cultures it is important to see the face of those to whom you speak. You wish to gauge more than the verbal messages and see the messages that the face itself sends out. In countries where the burqa is the norm, situations where it is necessary to have such openness are rare. You will not have unrelated men and women in the same space like a classroom. In front of children their is no need to wear a burqa. In the market place, the trader does not need to see your face to sell you some onions or saffron. But in France people are used to seeing people's faces because it establishes recognition and rapport. This begs the question: whose freedom is more important? That of the person to mask their identity or that of the person to know with whom they are doing business?


Corrected spelling mistake

[Edited 2013-06-10 09:43:40]
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
N1120A
Posts: 26557
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:28 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 42):
In the US, I haven't noticed the approval of nudism in public. Where's "freedom of speech" now?

Hey - that should be allowed as well.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 42):
In the US you use "freedom of religion" to ban prayer in schools?

Compulsory prayer in public schools is illegal. There is nothing illegal about school children praying on their own.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:28 am

Moving from burqas, nudism, and school prayer back to same-sex marriage ... there was an article posted today from the BBC magazine entitled:

The gay people against gay marriage

Quote:
"We're not going to procreate as a couple and while the desire to demonstrate commitment might be laudable, the religious traditions that have accommodated same-sex couples have had to do some fairly major contortions," says Soroff.

Until the federal government recognises and codifies the same rights for same-sex couples as straight ones, equality is the goal so why get hung up on a word, he asks.

"I'm not going to walk down the aisle to Mendelssohn wearing white in a church and throw a bouquet and do the first dance," adds Soroff, columnist for the Improper Boston.

"I've been to some lovely gay weddings but aping the traditional heterosexual wedding is weird and I don't understand why anyone wants to do that.

"I'm not saying that people who want that shouldn't have it but for me, all that matters is the legal stuff."
International Homo of Mystery
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8245
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:55 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
Tonight, we would especially like to speak to the adolescents in our country - boys and girls - who have been hurt during this debate. We speak to those children who found themselves in the midst of deep and frightening chaos. They discovered a society where a wave of selfishness led many to loudly protest against the rights of others.

We simply want to tell these adolescents that they are at home in our society.

We recognize them in this society. We recognize their contradictions, talents, shortcomings, qualities and fragility. These are the things that make each and every one of us unique. Regardless of any sexual issues, each one of us is unique. That is the strength of our society. It is even the basis of our society. It is the basis of our relationship to society. So we tell these adolescents: if you find yourself losing hope, sweep all of those thoughts out of your minds. They are only words. One day they will float away. Stay with us and keep your heads high. You have nothing to be ashamed of. We say that loud and clear, with our all the strength in our voices. As Nietzsche said: Truth kills. And if you repress it, it will kill you.

Those words are beautiful, thank you for sharing. I admit to having not followed this issue as closely as I should have, but I'm going to watch the whole speech later when I have time (thankfully I can speak French!)

I fully agree with the Minister's sentiment. The best thing that will come out of efforts to legalise marriage is that it will (I hope) allow young people to feel that they have a role within society, and that they feel less required to "change" in order to conform with traditional expectations. While, as these protests show, there is still work to be done in reducing bigotry, ensuring full legal rights is a very big step in the right direction.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Even today, you see a ton of western countries that don't get attacked for being anti-gay lacking gay marriage, France had some bumps as we've seen, NZ or Australia (apologies, I forgot) has had/have a little trouble with it.

*WARNING: TOPIC CREEP*

Don't get me started on Australia!!! As was pointed out upthread, our cuz' across the ditch have now legalised marriage, and yet our politicians (on both sides of the aisle) wont do anything.

At the moment we have a population that supports legalisation, we have a centre-left party that is being rejected by people my age in droves, and yet there is still no action on the issue.

The Liberal Party (which bizarrely the Australian conservative party) is led by a Catholic leader that is to the right wing of his own party on social issues. His shadow cabinet have encouraged him to allow a "conscience vote" for Liberal Party MPs and Senators on the issue, but he has refused. (kudos must be recognised for Joe Hockey, Chris Pyne, and Julie Bishop on this issue) For those who aren't familiar with the Australian Parliamentary system, unlike the US Congress Australian politicians are "bound" to vote along party lines. This means that if the party leadership decides that they oppose a bill, you basically have to vote against it. Therefore any "liberal" Liberal MPs are bound to oppose gay marriage.

The Labor Party (which bizarrely is the only American-English spelling used in Australian-English - as you can see our party names are scr*wed up!) is similarly non-committal on the subject.

At this point it is worth considering some party history: the Labor Party has traditionally been the party of the Catholic population. It has therefore been traditionally been quite socially conservative. In a sense, it has traditionally been an economically socialist, socially conservative party. In comparison, the Liberal Party was traditionally the party of the Anglican population. Without stoking too much controversy, the Anglican Church has traditionally been more progressive on social issues than the Catholic Church, after all it was founded expressly to allow for divorce! This means that the Liberal Party was traditionally economically conservative, but socially laissez faire (I don't want to use the term "liberal" or "progressive", but they traditionally adopted the view that the government should keeps its snout out of your social and private life).

In the period from, roughly, 1980 to 2010, the Labor Party repositioned itself as a Social Democratic party. Prime Ministers such as Bob Hawke, Paul Keating, and Kevin Rudd generally supported an almost Blairite policy agenda: free market economics with a strong social net to help those that couldn't help themselves. The current Prime Minister has, explicitly, rejected this approach, and has returned to a more "traditional" union-based conception of the Labor Party ("I do not lead a social democratic party, I lead a Labo(u)r Party"). It has been said that this current government is the most pro-union Labor government since the 1960s. Along with this slide to "old school" Labor values, social conservatism has similarly re-reared its ugly head. For the record, our Prime Minister is an atheist and yet she refuses to even discuss the issue.

Against this backdrop, Australia's politicians are completely out of step with the population as a whole. Both parties (or at least their leadership) are promoting socially conservative policies that, among other things, mean that legalisation of marriage is not even been discussed, and when it is it provides a forum for mudslinging and namecalling [at the gay population, rather than each other] that is well received among some quarters of the conservative tabloid media.

It is unsurprising that people my age are leaving the Labor Party in droves: for people of my generation unions (at least in Australia) have no relevance to our life. Basically, in Australia, they now only exist in manufacturing and the public sector. Therefore for most people my age (who don't work in either) they are meaningless. Therefore strengthening enterprise bargaining rights doesn't resonate with my generation. Moreover, the social policies of the current government (not just marriage, but also asylum seekers etc) are pushing more and more people out to the Greens Party.

I hope that one day this will change, and I still believe that marriage will be legalised here within a decade. One of two things will happen: either Tony Abbott (the presumptive Prime Minister come September) will be replaced by his own party (not in the first term, but down the track), and a more centrist leader (maybe Joe Hockey) will allow a conscience vote, or in a decade Labor will win power again and we will hopefully have a leader more in step with reality!

Sorry about the massive tangent!


Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
"Who cares? I don't find guys attractive but it never even enters my mind that the deed is taboo." That's where I think society will end up

DeltaMD90, I agreed with every word of your post. I think your spot on, and it's interesting that along with akiss20 we're the same age.

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 35):
I don't want the wife and 2.3 kids with the little house and white picket fence, but I do want what a lot of my hetero friends do: a permanent partner with whom to live my life
Quoting akiss20 (Reply 35):
I think the "american dream" overall is changing

To bastardize the term, not just the "American dream", but the "Australian dream", "French dream" etc.

And you're spot on! Our generation has moved on from the traditional conception of family.

My girlfriend doesn't want kids. Period. Not even negotiable.

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 35):
I am a young-ish gay man (turning 22 in a few weeks) and have very much the attitude you describe

I'm 22 in 2 days 
Quoting francoflier (Reply 12):
What we are witnessing is a minority of people being very vocal about it and making a disproportionate mess of it.

Well there's a surprise  

The majority of Americans support, among other things, the legalisation of gay marriage and full reproductive and abortive rights. You wouldn't know it though from watching the news...

[Edited 2013-06-10 22:53:15]
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12789
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: France And Gay Marriage: Why Such A Big Reaction?

Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:41 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 44):
If you were watching the Roland Garros Men's Final yesterday (woohoo Vamos Rafa! 8 titles!) there was an on-court protestor wielding a flare that some have said is a protest of gay marriage. There were several other loud protests during the final that interrupted the match for a few minutes.

It was "homens", they describe themselves as a counterpart of the femens, that's why they're bare-chested. They're really ridiculous, especially considering they wear masks. They're against gay marriage and the "feminisation of society", whatever that means.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 47):
"I'm not saying that people who want that shouldn't have it but for me, all that matters is the legal stuff."

Well that's exactly what happened in France. Marriage in France is a "legal stuff" that only mayors and some other state officers can perform. The ceremony is mandatory but can be quite brief, with the reading of a few law articles (what the spouses agree to by marrying) and the signatures of witnesses. It is illegal to marry religiously if you're not married by the state.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BHMNONREV, Bing [Bot], casinterest, cpd, GDB, Jetty, jetwet1, planewasted, qf789, seahawk, zhiao and 67 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos