Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
GrahamHill
Topic Author
Posts: 3017
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:35 am

Train Derailment In Spain

Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:11 pm

Several people dead, dozens of injured in Santiago de Compostela after a train derailed. It was carrying 200+ passengers.

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/07/24/espana/1374693824.html (in Spanish)

What's going on with trains lately?  
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:15 pm

Oh dear God. You're right, there certainly does seem to be an unusual number of train accidents recently. Is it anything to do with unseasonably hot weather perhaps?
 
User avatar
GrahamHill
Topic Author
Posts: 3017
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:35 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:28 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
Is it anything to do with unseasonably hot weather perhaps?

According to La Voz de Galicia, the train was approaching Santiago's station at high speed when one of the passenger car "jumped in the air". As to what caused the car to jump, it's too early to tell.

Some pictures of the accident here
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:30 pm

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 2):
Some pictures of the accident here

Wow, that looks very bad indeed.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22230
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:35 pm

15 dead 50+ injured according to the OP's link.  

Train was an "Alvia," which is a medium-speed service usually running around 150km/h IIRC.
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:57 pm

 
A320ajm
Posts: 587
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:57 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:09 pm

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 2):
Some pictures of the accident here

Disturbing that there looks like a carriage on the opposite side of the wall/fence on photo 5 of 15. Thoughts are with everyone affected.

A320ajm
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22230
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:33 pm

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 6):
Disturbing that there looks like a carriage on the opposite side of the wall/fence on photo 5 of 15. Thoughts are with everyone affected.

Looking at that photo, I'm guessing that the car that's off to the side went off the rails before the shield wall began. The track curves so any derailment is going to tend to go to the outside of the curve. The barrier wall seems to end right there, so that car would have traveled farther than those that were arrested by the (evidently very strong) wall.

Lots of bodies under makeshift blankets. Horrible.  
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:47 pm

Reports of up to 35 killed  
 
Braniff747SP
Posts: 2579
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:56 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:06 pm

More photos here:
http://www.abc.es/fotos-galicia/2013...antiago-imagenes-151754294794.html

Terrible; rumors are floating around that it was human error--something along the lines of going too fast. Can't know for sure, of course, but having extensively observed rail operations in the country it wouldn't surprise me much.
 
photolppt
Posts: 531
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:17 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:44 am

Quoting racko (Reply 5):
Quoting racko (Reply 5):

Looks like a Class 130:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RENFE_C...s_130

More exactly, one of the newer Class 730, an hybrid Electric/Diesel unit, converted from the class 130. From the same Wiki article:

Quote:
Fifteen S130 sets are to be converted, using two generator sets per train utilising MTU 12V 4000 R43L engines (1.8MW each) in trailer cars. The top speed in diesel mode is 180 km/h. Testing of the trains took place in 2011 with introduction expected into service in 2012.



Max speed for the S730 is 250km/h under electric power, 180km/h under diesel power. The track section where the derailment happened has an 80km/h speed limit, and the sharpest corner in the new Ourense-Santiago high speed line, but several passengers on the train are quoted saying the train was travelling too fast, much faster than usual at that location.

Very Very sad indeed... may the victims RIP


[Edited 2013-07-24 17:48:21]

[Edited 2013-07-24 17:49:07]
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:53 am

BBC now reporting at least 60 dead. A very severe crash.
 
AR385
Posts: 6936
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:49 am

The train was going at 190km/hr in a zone where the max speed is mandated to be 80km/hr. The driver who survived with little injuries has attested to this.

There are upwards of 77 dead by now.

My condolences to the families and may the victims rest in peace.

http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2013/07/24/galicia/1374693125_734192.html
 
JJJ
Posts: 4107
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:37 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 12):
The train was going at 190km/hr in a zone where the max speed is mandated to be 80km/hr. The driver who survived with little injuries has attested to this.

Apparently at that point the line used the old conventional ASFA which doesn't automatically slow the train if the speed limits are ignored, rather than the more modern ETCS in use in the high-speed segments which would have automatically slowed down the train.

As it comes, ASFA sends a warning to the cabin which the driver must acknowledge having received by pushing a specific button, and does not act on the brakes or power unless the button isn't pressed.

The train was almost full because of the local St. James festivities in Galicia.

It's not yet clear whether RENFE's policy of refunding tickets with a delay over 5 minutes played a part in this (the train was delayed by precisely 5 minutes). The driver, while still trapped in the cabin acknowledged by radio he was going way too fast and that he "hoped nobody was seriously injured" because it would be a "heavy burden on his conscience".
 
JJJ
Posts: 4107
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:36 am

Btw: an ADIF (Spanish Railway infrastructure owner) security camera footage of the crash has been released:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGlgnUgTUmo
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5558
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:03 am

Tragic news, if the reports of excessive speed and the possible reason for that speed are borne out then truly an unnecessary tragedy!

Condolences to all those involved.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 14):
security camera footage of the crash has been released:

But not for long.... "This video has been removed as a violation of YouTube's policy on shocking and disgusting content. "
 
JJJ
Posts: 4107
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:19 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 15):

But not for long.... "This video has been removed as a violation of YouTube's policy on shocking and disgusting content. "
www.zoomnews.es/74485/actualidad/esp...iento-del-tren-su-llegada-santiago

But the page is currently under very heavy traffic.

A youtube search for "video accidente santiago" will give you a dozen hits or so before they pull it down.
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:19 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 13):
It's not yet clear whether RENFE's policy of refunding tickets with a delay over 5 minutes played a part in this (the train was delayed by precisely 5 minutes).

That sounds weird, around here trains are late more than that pretty much every day without anyone getting a refund. It's hard to believe the driver would try to go into a corner 2x the normal speed intentionally in any situation.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 15):
But not for long.... "This video has been removed as a violation of YouTube's policy on shocking and disgusting content. "

I wonder if that footage was from a security camera inside the train or somewhere outside? If it was inside then I could understand the decision although still Youtube has plenty of disgusting stuff where people harm each other or animals intentionally, yet Youtube isn't removing those.

Anyway what a horrible accident, I feel bad for all the victims and their families.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4107
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:24 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 17):
That sounds weird, around here trains are late more than that pretty much every day without anyone getting a refund.

The refund is just for high-speed services and some lines running through the high-speed tracks. Not for commuter trains and such which are more subject to delays.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 17):
I wonder if that footage was from a security camera inside the train or somewhere outside?

Security camera on the tracks, there are three of them on that curve, connected to the operations center at Atocha station in Madrid.

[Edited 2013-07-25 04:24:43]
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:26 am

"The refund is just for high-speed services and some lines running through the high-speed tracks. Not for commuter trains and such which are more subject to delays."

Ok, around here it's kind of other way around, our high speed Italian made Pendolino trains really don't like cold winter weather and tend to get more delays than traditional slower speed trains.




This site seems to show it too:

http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/07/25/videos/1374749180_392391.html

I don't understand why Youtube would remove this while it's hosting plenty of other videos from accidents with a lot of casualties.

The impact looks really hard, easy to see now why so many people lost their lives.

[Edited 2013-07-25 04:29:49]
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:28 am

Yet more bad news as the death toll climbs ever higher. Now reported to be 78. Over 140 injured.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23448002
 
AF1624
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:57 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:29 am

Terrible tragedy.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 19):

I don't understand why Youtube would remove this while it's hosting plenty of other videos from accidents with a lot of casualties.

Because it's automatic if enough people "report" the video. It's as simple as that.

In this instance it is a video where you barely see anything: 2 seconds of the train arriving, 2 seconds of it rolling on its side, and 2 seconds of it hitting the wall and scraping along the wall. Nothing disturbing at all unless you force yourself to consider what people inside felt.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15780
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:40 am

I just saw the video of this crash on MSNBC, with attribution to El Pias newspapers. It looks like the locomotive started tipping away from the tracks just as the wall starts into the curve, the coaches break away from the track and some on their front end hit the beginning of the wall. Very disturbing and suggesting of excessive speed or less unlikely, a problem with the tracks.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:47 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):
I just saw the video of this crash on MSNBC

It is remarkable how many incidents like this are caught on video these days. A matter of only 15 years ago we'd rarely see plane crashes and other such catastrophes recorded in comparison to now.

Edit: Just watched a CNN video report of this, and 'Near Barcelona' was being repeatedly flashed up. Hmm - well, it's more or less in the same half of the country I suppose, but near? No, not even slightly.

[Edited 2013-07-25 04:52:42]
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14641
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:00 pm

Wow, last night there were talks of about 10 deaths, I thought it wasn't too bad, and now I see a totally different picture. That video is impressive too.

Condolences to the families and good recovery for the injured.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4107
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:02 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 23):
Hmm - well, it's more or less in the same half of the country I suppose, but near? No, not even slightly.

Roughly the same distance than LA to Salt Lake City.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25592
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:09 pm

Terrible news RIP to the victims. I actually heard about this last night when I was on an Intercity train here in Ireland. Saw it on Sky News.

The video of the impact is very scary.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:56 pm

What a horrible accident. On one of the BBC videos it said that this was a known dangerous curve, where the trains had to slow from 200kph to 80kph within seconds, partially explaining why the train was going so fast.

My condolences to the victims, and hope that those who survive fully recover.

One of my fondest memories of my grand tour of Europe long ago was taking a Spanish Talgo train from somewhere in France to Geneva. It lumbered along like a comfy old Cadillac. They've come a long way since then!
 
User avatar
solnabo
Posts: 5025
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:53 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:20 pm

 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15677
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:50 pm

The photos look similar to the JR West accident in Amagasaki several years ago over here. In that case it was a driver who ignored a speed signal due to fatigue and also derailed via an excessive speed turn.

Accidents like these just make the shinkansen look that much more impressive. 49 years and billions of passengers without a single fatality.
 
D L X
Posts: 12722
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:30 pm

Looking at the video, doesn't it look like the 2nd car has already left the tracks when the train comes into view? It is being held in place by the locomotive ahead and the car behind it at first, until I guess it just couldn't hold any longer.
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:44 pm

Apparently the track is very straight for a long time with a speed limit of 200 km/h, which is then reduced to only 80 km/h for this tight bend - and they were too cheap to install an automatic train control system even though it has to be obvious that this a very dangerous segment.
 
User avatar
GrahamHill
Topic Author
Posts: 3017
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:35 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:36 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 14):
Btw: an ADIF (Spanish Railway infrastructure owner) security camera footage of the crash has been released

This is scary. Really scary.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 29):
49 years and billions of passengers without a single fatality.

The TGV derailed three times in 33 years on high speed lines, but without any fatality. On normal lines, though, there have been a couple of fatal accidents.
 
bueb0g
Posts: 656
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:57 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:47 pm

One thing that I keep noticing about this accident is that multiple sources speak of "the drivers", and many seem to indicate there were two drivers on board. I notice that the rear power car's door is open - maybe there was a driver in the rear cab too?

Obviously trains only have one driver, (and the one in control is being questioned) but is it perhaps relevant that there could have been two people in the cab? Perhaps the driver was distracted by a dead-heading colleague in the cab and missed the upcoming speed restriction? It seems unlikely that the second driver was in the cab on official business, unless it was a trainee driver on a route learning exercise.
 
Scorpio
Posts: 5052
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:02 pm

Just heard on the news here that apparently, the driver had been boasting on Facebook about how fast he could make the train go. No idea where they got it, still to be taken with a grain of salt.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25592
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:32 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 31):
Apparently the track is very straight for a long time with a speed limit of 200 km/h, which is then reduced to only 80 km/h for this tight bend - and they were too cheap to install an automatic train control system even though it has to be obvious that this a very dangerous segment.

Sadly this is often the case. Dangerous sections of roads/rail etc... someone or in this case alot of people have to die for anything to be done or for it to shock people into forcing change. It will be interesting to see how it turns out but terrible for the victims Families whatever the outcome.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 34):
Just heard on the news here that apparently, the driver had been boasting on Facebook about how fast he could make the train go. No idea where they got it, still to be taken with a grain of salt.

Well these things always come out these days so lets wait and see but if true he is in serious trouble !
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:35 pm

I've seen the speeding reports too.

Seems like this guy had been boating on,ine and actually had a photo of the speedometer of another train on his website show it moving at 125.

If this guy was intentionally speeding and it looks like he was then he needs to go to prison. preferably for the rest of his life.

No different than drinking and driving IMHO.
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 6165
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:37 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 33):
I notice that the rear power car's door is open - maybe there was a driver in the rear cab too?

Rescue workers don't close the doors they've opened. Perhaps they assumed a person there.

And police would need to open that door anyway to get the FDR (depends on which power unit has one).

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 33):
Obviously trains only have one driver, (and the one in control is being questioned) but is it perhaps relevant that there could have been two people in the cab?

Italy, for example, has two drivers per cabin. Germany and Switzerland have one. I don't know how it is in Spain. Newer engines come with a nice red emergency braking button that is easy to reach for any deadheading or tutoring second driver.


David
 
Scorpio
Posts: 5052
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:39 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 35):
Well these things always come out these days so lets wait and see but if true he is in serious trouble !

Found an article:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...ok-about-his-love-for-200kmh-speed
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:59 pm

A national tragedy, 80 people dead and over 100 injured.. A todos los familiares: siento como mío vuestro dolor

-a
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25592
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:23 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 38):
Found an article:

Its hard to know . Some people boast on social media about doing things that really are in real BS and nothing more. It certainly does not look good and another reason why people are always stupid to post these types of things online. It can come back to haunt them. In this case I guess it will help investigators to at least rule it in or out.

Some points Sky News made :

Line/Track only two years old.

Train serviced last Wednesday.

Something that driver relied on failed?

Cut backs in RENFE due to economic crisis?

All points and questions being asked.

I think it would be easier to accept an electronic failure than someone on an ego trip playing with lives but thats for the Families to decide.
 
starrymarkb
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:19 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:25 pm

Here is a Drivers Eye View taken on another day showing the normal speed around that corner - it's where the train leaves the high speed line to join the 'Classic Lines' (to borrow a french term) into the station

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...lpage&v=QvvvL3OTtXk&t=1885

(you'll need to set Youtube to 480p as it doesn't seem to like playing back in other resolutions)

In the UK tracks with such a large reduction in speed (30mph difference or greater) will have TPWS magnets fitted on the approaches, these will check the braking curve*, if the train will not make the lower limit using standard braking then the emergency brakes are applied to stop the train.

*It's a simple and low cost system, two beacons are placed a distance apart, if the train detects both beacons in less then one second the emergency brakes are applied

[Edited 2013-07-25 13:30:49]
 
bueb0g
Posts: 656
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:57 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:00 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 34):
the driver had been boasting on Facebook about how fast he could make the train go.

Yes, but on lines where the speed was legal. Just the same as if a pilot boasted about how he flew jets that go at 500 mph. Not advisable, but not indicative of a reckless driver.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 35):
Well these things always come out these days so lets wait and see but if true he is in serious trouble !

Hardly - as already stated, he picture of him driving at 200 km/hr was on a track that allowed him to drive at that speed.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 36):
I've seen the speeding reports too.

Seems like this guy had been boating on,ine and actually had a photo of the speedometer of another train on his website show it moving at 125.

If this guy was intentionally speeding and it looks like he was then he needs to go to prison. preferably for the rest of his life.

No different than drinking and driving IMHO.

He didn't deliberately speed. The driver quite clearly missed the speed restriction for whatever reason - inattention or distraction - but he wasn't taking the corner at speed "knowingly", and from reports, realised his mistake when he saw the curve in front of him. In the pictures he was within the speed limit for that track.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 37):
Italy, for example, has two drivers per cabin.

I haven't found any evidence for that - can you provide? Maybe for older trains, but the standard for modern trains is, worldwide, one driver. Two seats for sure, but normally one driver.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 40):
I think it would be easier to accept an electronic failure than someone on an ego trip playing with lives but thats for the Families to decide.

It was neither; the track didn't have train speed protection installed, so no electronic failure - the systems weren't installed. And not an ego trip either; no driver would deliberately speed there, as he would know he'd come off the track (drivers are required to have excellent route knowledge) - it seems clear he failed to realise where he was and didn't register the speed restriction until it was too late.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25592
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:07 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 42):
it seems clear he failed to realise where he was and didn't register the speed restriction until it was too late.

Nothing is clear. We will have to wait and see. You were not there I was not there and neither were the media so nothing is taken off the inquiry at the moment.

The train according to Sky News was late.
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 6165
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:17 pm

I can't help but feel sadness about this accident.  

I wanted to be a cargo engine driver years ago.


Quoting bueb0g (Reply 42):
I haven't found any evidence for that - can you provide? Maybe for older trains, but the standard for modern trains is, worldwide, one driver. Two seats for sure, but normally one driver.

I want to clarify: Two are people qualified as drivers and sit in the cabin, but only one actually drives the train. The second driver just operates the aforementioned red button, if any need arises.

By the way many Swiss locomotives have one seat for the driver, and beside, an old and worn office chair (minus wheels) for any jumpseating person.


David
 
bueb0g
Posts: 656
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:57 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:32 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 43):
Nothing is clear. We will have to wait and see. You were not there I was not there and neither were the media so nothing is taken off the inquiry at the moment.

Of course we have to wait for the inquiry, but the facts we know so far are this:

1) The curve has a speed limit of 80 km/h

2) The preceding track (up to the tunnel) had a limit of 200 km/h

3) The preceding, high speed track was equipped with ETCS, analogous to TPWS in the UK, which has the ability to monitor the train's speed, convey the limit to the driver via in cab signalling, and brake the train to the appropriate speed if the train is speeding.

4) The track relating to the curve with the 80 km/h limit did not have ETCS but only ASFA, an older technology which is analogous to AWS in the UK - all that does is alert the driver if he is approaching a red or yellow light, and in some cases, alert the driver of an upcoming speed restriction but has no way of monitoring the train's speed or taking braking action if the train is speeding.

5) The driver admitted to entering the turn at 180 - 190 km/h and by some reports made an emergency transmission seconds before the crash, as he tried to slow down (takes a long time to stop a train). The driver has made no indication of any brake issues and neither did the train operator, which carried out an inspection prior to the train's departure.

6) The driver would have been fully aware that, if taken at 180 km/h, the train would derail at that corner.

So we know that it cannot have been a computer or electronic failure, as there was no computer system there that was designed to stop the train on this segment of track and the train was not equipped with onboard, software based ATP (automatic train protection). We also know that the driver did not intentionally take the corner at 180 km/h, as no sane person would, all train drivers have excellent route knowledge, he was an experienced driver and the messages he sent over the radio reportedly just before the accident and also after the accident when he was trapped in the cab indicated that he mistakenly failed to brake the train before coming up to the turn.

Combine this with the fact that the train had just left an area of track where the limit was 200 km/h, and the accident happened at a similar speed to that, we can say that it is highly probable that the driver failed to begin braking when he should have done, for whatever reason. The reasons for the driver's failure to slow properly will be complex and difficult to determine and will most likely be the focus of the investigation.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 44):
I want to clarify: Two are people qualified as drivers and sit in the cabin, but only one actually drives the train. The second driver just operates the aforementioned red button, if any need arises.

Interesting... Can you source this? As I said, I can't find any info about that online and the one or two cab pictures I can find from Italy (albeit low speed trains) appear to show only one driver in the cab.

[Edited 2013-07-25 14:34:14]

[Edited 2013-07-25 14:34:31]
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2598
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:41 pm

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 32):
The TGV derailed three times in 33 years on high speed lines, but without any fatality. On normal lines, though, there have been a couple of fatal accidents.

As you say, no fatalities on LGV (Hiigh Speed Lines) for TGV in 32 year history, nor in Japan, nor in Spain on true HSR. The few fatalities on TGV trains were on old classic speed lines and nearly always associated with level crossing accidents with trucks.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25592
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:43 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 45):
We also know that the driver did not intentionally take the corner at 180 km/h, as no sane person would

Well I wouldnt rule it out however unlikely it is.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 45):
The reasons for the driver's failure to slow properly will be complex and difficult to determine and will most likely be the focus of the investigation.

Indeed and it will be interesting to see how it pans out. Sometimes actions of people can defy logic. Maybe it will be as you suggest a genuine mistake but if so what distracted/disorientated him. What was he doing in the run up to the crash etc...
 
bueb0g
Posts: 656
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:57 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:54 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 47):
Well I wouldnt rule it out however unlikely it is.

Probably right, but I just find it so unlikely. He'd know it's 80 km/h there for a reason; maybe he thought he could make the turn without really checking his speed?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 47):
What was he doing in the run up to the crash etc...

Yup... Chatting with the other driver? On his phone? Uploading pictures to facebook..? Something must have distracted him; even without electronic systems on that part of the track, the massive signs displaying upcoming speed limits would be hard to miss, and again, as a driver, he would have known the limit and turn was there. I can only imagine he lost track of where he was, but the mind is a complex thing... the right amount of factors come together and it fails - it's possible he didn't even register the speed restrictions despite not being explicitly distracted. Time will tell.
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 6165
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Train Derailment In Spain

Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:45 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 45):
Interesting... Can you source this? As I said, I can't find any info about that online and the one or two cab pictures I can find from Italy (albeit low speed trains) appear to show only one driver in the cab.

My source is just reading a newspaper years ago (about the 2005 Bologna train crash), which stated that in Italian trains there are two train drivers in the front office. I tried to find a source now, and can't find one. Given the power unions have in Italy, it wouldn't surprise me if there were still 2 drivers in each locomotive.

Any Italian here?   


David

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aaron747, art, Bing [Bot], leader1, MarcoT, melpax, StarAC17 and 28 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos