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moo
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Bradley Manning Verdict

Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:11 pm

As it happens, verdicts on 21 counts:

Guilty on 15 counts.

Not guilty on aiding and abetting the enemy, which was the most serious charge.
 
L-188
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:21 pm

Well he is still going to have a kansas for a very very long time.

And he did it himself,.

enjoy Leavenworth you traitor!
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:47 pm

I wish he was convicted on all 21, but I am happy with the verdict.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
enjoy Leavenworth you traitor!

        
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moo
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:01 pm

Guilty on 20 of 22 counts, including several counts of espionage.

He's going to end up doing a chunk of military jail time.
 
Ken777
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:06 pm

IIRC Maning had already pleaded Guilty to several counts that got him 20 years. Add in the new ones and he is looking at 50+ Years in a military prison. This guy is going to be hated by both the guards and other prisoners - doesn't make for a enjoyable environment.

I don't believe he is going to survive that long, and could care less if he doesn't.
 
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SQ948
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:33 pm

Everyone who has seen "Collateral Murder" knows who the real criminals are. Little hint: It's not Maning

It's a shame many Americans haven't realized yet that the war on terror is destroying your nation and so much more. Bin Laden in the meantime is looking up from hell smiling, noticing what he has achieved.
 
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:46 pm

A common mantra is that soldiers fight and die for their country, and to protect the freedoms of their fellow countrymen.

Which is why it always pisses me off when people who claim to act in the best interest of their country via actions like these (and the people that support them), cry about being treated "unjustly".

War is hell. Just because you fight a war on a piece of paper doesn't make it any less so.

If you truly believe that what you're doing is right, then there should be no qualms about the consequences you will face.




In this case, Manning was bullied into all of this. He was bullied by his peers for being "queer", which caused him to want to do something back. He was then bullied into stealing and releasing classified documents by a bunch of radical anarchists with inflated egos.

There are no winners here, only losers.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:46 pm

Quoting moo (Thread starter):
Not guilty on aiding and abetting the enemy, which was the most serious charge.

Despite anyone's feelings on Manning, I do not think he did what he did to aid the enemy (does the charge require that's your intent or that's what you ended up doing?

Whistleblowing is a gray area in the military, I've been told many times that if there is an injustice then you should take action. Just copying and pasting a bunch of documents onto a flashdrive and giving that information away, IDC what anyone says, is not the way to go about it. From what I heard about him, it sounded more like he was pissed off at the Army rather than a champion for human rights, but I guess that's not for me to judge.

If he only released damning information, it would be one thing. What he did was sloppy and reckless, IMO
 
Curtisman
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:59 am

Sad day indeed. It's ok to send soldiers off to other countries and kill innocent people or kill in order for their own country to profit. And they are considered heroes. Someone from that country spills the beans on what is really going on and he is considered guilty of the charges laid out. Wow - sad day indeed.
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WarRI1
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:18 am

Quoting curtisman (Reply 8):
Sad day indeed. It's ok to send soldiers off to other countries and kill innocent people or kill in order for their own country to profit. And they are considered heroes. Someone from that country spills the beans on what is really going on and he is considered guilty of the charges laid out. Wow - sad day indeed.

I would guess that you feel your country has done that also. I would hope the US is not your primary target. Remember world history. I feel as MD90 does. I do not think he did it to aid and abet the enemy. I think he was incredibly stupid, naïve and used his position of trust unwisely for whatever reason. Imagine if he was allowed to get away with such a breach of military law. He took an oath, he violated it, and he should pay for that.

[Edited 2013-07-30 19:22:54]
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:04 am

Quoting curtisman (Reply 8):
Someone from that country spills the beans on what is really going on and he is considered guilty of the charges laid out.

But that's the thing, he didn't just "spill the beans." Just like any population, the military has its fair share of not so good people, but you'd be surprised at how many people would speak against injustices. If you're gonna be a whistle blower you gotta do more than just go to a folder, CTRL+A, CTRL+C, then CTRL+V to a flash drive and give it away (for the non technical people, I'm saying you can't just copy a bunch of files and give them away

Had he been very careful and only leaked some damning stuff, I think he would have been ok. Like I said, the military actually teaches (at least at Navy OCS they did) that in some cases it's the moral thing to do to violate orders, speak out against injustices, etc

Your blanket, generalizing statement does the discussion as much good as the people that refuse to acknowledge the military ever doing anything wrong. It's never good to be on any extreme
 
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seb146
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:43 am

So one man is a whistle blower and provides government secrets to the world and he is a hero. Bradley Manning does the same thing and he is sent to prison. What's wrong with this picture?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:53 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 11):
So one man is a whistle blower and provides government secrets to the world and he is a hero.

Who?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 11):
Bradley Manning does the same thing and he is sent to prison.

Did he do the same thing, or are you, just like others, ignoring what me and others have been saying, that he didn't just whistle blow, he leaked a whole bunch of files indiscriminately? Were all the files he released relating to covered up injustices? Yes or no? Answer me that please. Then you know the next question, is it right to release military secrets that have nothing to do with injustices and may put lives in risk needlessly? Don't just focus on a few things and leave others out, otherwise you're just intentionally misleading people

Quoting seb146 (Reply 11):
What's wrong with this picture?

Well, you were vague on who you were comparing Manning to, but if I had to guess what is 'wrong with this picture,' it's that you're ignoring the fact that Manning wasn't a simple whistle blower. Trust me, had he only released the few controversial files, a lot more (but not all) people would sympathize with him. I don't see him as fighting for human rights, he just looked like someone that wanted to get even with those he worked with the the Army. That doesn't win cool points in my book, and that doesn't mean I'm for military injustices and the slaughtering of civilians. The military must be accountable and the public must see the destruction war causes so we do go to war unnecessarily. So yeah, I've thought about this, I'm not just bashing him just because that's what other people are doing
 
Ken777
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:18 am

Quoting curtisman (Reply 8):
It's ok to send soldiers off to other countries and kill innocent people or kill in order for their own country to profit.

It's the politicians who decide where military personnel go, and what conflicts they get invoke in.

It is the individual soldier or sailor who takes an oath to serve their country to the best of their abilities and then spend their enlistment doing just that. I certainly had no love for the Vietnam War, but I had taken an oath and I did my best to live up to the standards I set

Quoting curtisman (Reply 8):
Someone from that country spills the beans on what is really going on and he is considered guilty of the charges laid out.

Manning committed multiple criminal acts, pled Guilty to some (which would get him 20 years) and then fought others. He was found Not Guilty on the biggest risk he faced, but Guilty on others. He may well die in prison, depending on his additional years and his ability to get along with others in the prison population. I really could care less because he IS guilty of multiple crimes.
 
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:23 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
He may well die in prison, depending on his additional years and his ability to get along with others in the prison population. I really could care less because he IS guilty of multiple crimes.

I wouldn't go that far. I disagree with his actions and don't think they were just 'freedom loving actions' but he still deserves human dignity, and I will not be cheering his death. Sad to see a young person throw away his life like that
 
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:06 am

Quoting SQ948 (Reply 5):
It's a shame many Americans haven't realized yet that the war on terror is destroying your nation and so much more. Bin Laden in the meantime is looking up from hell smiling, noticing what he has achieved

I think Americans are starting to see it more after this whole PRISM deal.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
From what I heard about him, it sounded more like he was pissed off at the Army rather than a champion for human rights, but I guess that's not for me to judge.

I absolutely agree. It to me seems like he was just pissed off and had enough. Instead of being selective he wanted to hurt the leadership by releasing as much info as he possibly could. I think when he got caught his defense team tried to play it off that he was doing this for human rights. Which as his lawyers they rightfully should.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 11):
So one man is a whistle blower and provides government secrets to the world and he is a hero. Bradley Manning does the same thing and he is sent to prison. What's wrong with this picture?

There is a big difference. One guy carefully planned his release and what he was going to do. Bradley Manning on the other hand downloaded a bunch of files, without reviewing them, and sent them to wikileaks. I have no issues with whistleblowers. What I have a problem with is revealing extreme government secrets that could potentially put other soldiers in danger and not having a clue what a bulk of the information contains. He is a criminal and deserves the punishment he received IMO. Though I think everyone can pretty much agree that the Aiding the enemy charge was just overkill.
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:04 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 6):
He was then bullied into stealing and releasing classified documents by a bunch of radical anarchists with inflated egos.

And lets not forget, he was bullied, humiliated, and some might even say tortured, by the US military (and it seems, this too, was completely sanctioned by the US Government) when they forced him to live virtually naked whilst in custody....   

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rced-to-sleep-naked-in-prison.html
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:09 am

"Treason implies responsibility for something, control over something, influence upon something, knowledge of something. Treason in our time is a proof of genius. Why, I want to know, are not traitors decorated?"

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ltbewr
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:32 am

The conviction of Bradley Manning and his acceptance of a plea deal on other charges will lead to penalty in jail for likely the rest of his life and into old age if lives that long. I accept the decision of the Military Judge not to include conviction of some of the 'aiding the enemy' charges. But what will be the result of his conviction and the attempts to go after Snowden for similar acts at the NSA ?

There is little doubt that similar future whistleblowing of 'secret' information in the military and government agencies will mean escalating and more severe penalties for anyone who may consider it. Supervisors of those with access to such information and manage such databases will (and should) face increasing pressure to protect it, more procedures to limit to who and how much such information is accessible. I suspect there will be amendments to 'whistleblower' laws to more narrowly define what and how it can be invoked as a defense. Although some say the Bradley not facing penalties for 'aiding the enemy' preserves first amendment rights of the news media, have no doubt the wall of protections of 3rd party receivers of such information to media will be lowered or removed with criminal acts being taken against them (look at the destruction of Wikileaks from Manning's disclosures and probably underway with The Guardian as to Snowden's disclosures)

The deeper issues that need to be dealt with is that we (and other governments) do too many bad acts under our policies, hide and over-classifying as secret too much information to protect too many military officers, politicians, government administrators and private companies, hiding the truth that hurts in the long run.
 
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:06 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):
And lets not forget, he was bullied, humiliated, and some might even say tortured, by the US military

I can remember a few times when our CO had someone placed in the Brig - which was run by the Marines on board.

That was not party time by any means, nor was it designed to be.

When I think of those days I think Manning is in for a really rough ride. It's not just the guards (the government) he has to be concerned about, but also the other prisoners. Some one mentioned that he might be gay - that could ease one part of the abuses by other prisoners, but I believe he is in for a rough time.
 
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:23 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):
And lets not forget, he was bullied, humiliated, and some might even say tortured, by the US military (and it seems, this too, was completely sanctioned by the US Government) when they forced him to live virtually naked whilst in custody....  

I doubt forcing someone to sleep naked to make sure they won't kill his or herself is that rare. When it comes to the other stuff, I don't think it is very surprising. Prison isn't supposed to be a reward for good. You end up there for a reason. I think military prisons across the world treatment is a bit harsher. You don't have those same rights you have a civilian. I think the torture is all speculation. If I see solid proof I would agree it is wrong.
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:25 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 18):
Although some say the Bradley not facing penalties for 'aiding the enemy' preserves first amendment rights of the news media, have no doubt the wall of protections of 3rd party receivers of such information to media will be lowered or removed with criminal acts being taken against them (look at the destruction of Wikileaks from Manning's disclosures and probably underway with The Guardian as to Snowden's disclosures)

Finding him guilty of that charge would have set a very dangerous precedent that would have threatened 'freedom of the press' that journalists enjoy in the US. If Snowden is captured and tried for the same charge, I would hope that judge also finds him not guilty.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 9):
I would guess that you feel your country has done that also. I would hope the US is not your primary target. Remember world history.

My feelings aren't as strong as curtisman's, but yes, I feel the same as my country. Although I'm no history major, I believe that every international conflict that Canada has been involved in in my lifetime has been from following the US as an ally. I can understand why curtisman would target the US since it seems that they typically lead the charge into these conflicts (speaking only of events in the past couple decades).

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 10):
But that's the thing, he didn't just "spill the beans." Just like any population, the military has its fair share of not so good people, but you'd be surprised at how many people would speak against injustices. If you're gonna be a whistle blower you gotta do more than just go to a folder, CTRL+A, CTRL+C, then CTRL+V to a flash drive and give it away (for the non technical people, I'm saying you can't just copy a bunch of files and give them away

Had he been very careful and only leaked some damning stuff, I think he would have been ok. Like I said, the military actually teaches (at least at Navy OCS they did) that in some cases it's the moral thing to do to violate orders, speak out against injustices, etc

   Agreed. He had the right idea, but he really f-ed up the execution of it. Incredibly careless.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 15):
I think Americans are starting to see it more after this whole PRISM deal.

It took Americans 11 years to figure it out that bombing other countries might make you guys look bad?  
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
Some one mentioned that he might be gay - that could ease one part of the abuses by other prisoners

No it won't. Abuse is abuse. When a woman is sexually assaulted by a man, being heterosexual doesn't make it any less traumatizing.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
It's not just the guards (the government) he has to be concerned about



He shouldn't be concerned about the guards at all. The guards aren't the judge, jury, or executioner. Their job is to ensure that punishment is meted out as designed, and not to add to the punishment as they see fit. Any guard that decides otherwise has no business serving your country.
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ozglobal
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:57 pm

The US, and many other Western (former) democracies, are turning into shades of ancient Rome, where the one crime that got you crucified was posing a perceived threat to the all powerful state. Bradley Manning is no Jesus Christ, but I do hear an echo of the "Crucify him! Crucify him!" mantra once his actions have sufficiently been portrayed as treason by the compliant crowd of onlookers on this forum. Them I would ask, who is the REAL enemy of your freedom, huh?


Oh, and for those unsure of the facts (but not their opinions), Manning DID present his concerns up the chain of command before publishing. Being a whistle blower, he knew there were consequences, but I for one, on balance, am glad the awful truth, the first casualty of "war", has come to light.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-PV4...view&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ

[Edited 2013-07-31 12:03:29]
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:12 pm

I think Manning made the mistake of giving the data to the egomaniac Assange of Wikileaks, who then published them indiscriminately in their raw, not edited, version and was quoted that whoever cooperated with US had only himself to bblame if e.g. the Taliban would take revenge on him.

Snowden seems to be much more careful. The information posted by the British Guardian newspaper and the German Spiegel magazine had been heavily edited, with names and sources removed, to prevent damage to innocents.

Jan
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NoUFO
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:09 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):

I think you are incorrect here. If I recall correctly, Snowden passed his material on to The Guardian (not Der Spiegel). Assange forwarded Manning's material to editors of Guardian, NYT and Spiegel. Those agreed on a modus operandi and published edited versions.

Edit: I checked: That was the Iraq War Diary. Manning's "Gitmo files" were published by NYT and Guardian. Spiegel, Daily Telegraph, Washington Post and some other publications followed, and so did Wikileaks.

[Edited 2013-08-04 02:15:45]
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:26 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 24):
If I recall correctly, Snowden passed his material on to The Guardian (not Der Spiegel). Assange forwarded Manning's material to editors of Guardian, NYT and Spiegel. Those agreed on a modus operandi and published edited versions.

Then Snowden´s publications in the Spiegel three weeks ago were probably forewarded to them by the Guardian.

The original Manning publications were also sanitised by responsible newspaper editors, but once Assenge got hold of the other data, he dumped it in the raw.

Jan
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tu204
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:20 pm

Of course this guy is guilty. But what worries me is at as far as I know. From all of the information he released, nobody has been charged with anything. I was hoping that there is some hope left for the U.S...at least put on a show trial charging somebody with war crimes. But no...sad.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:44 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 26):
Of course this guy is guilty. But what worries me is at as far as I know. From all of the information he released, nobody has been charged with anything. I was hoping that there is some hope left for the U.S...at least put on a show trial charging somebody with war crimes. But no...sad.

What are you talking about? Did you miss:

Quoting moo (Thread starter):
Guilty on 15 counts.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:37 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):

What are you talking about? Did you miss:

He meant that nobody that may have been doing something illegal, as documented in the files he released has been charged with any crimes.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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pvjin
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:15 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 6):
A common mantra is that soldiers fight and die for their country, and to protect the freedoms of their fellow countrymen.

And that common mantra is total BS most of the time. Since WW2 no American soldier has died for their fellow countrymen, freedom or anything like that. They have mostly died for fight against people who had different views about how to run economy / state than old greedy US politicians have, not to protect freedom of American people or anyone else.

That's how wars keep going, there are always enough young ignorant men willing to fight for old greedy politicians who use things like freedom / fight against terrorism etc as an excuse.

I guess then there are plenty of people fighting abroad in US military who understand that they aren't fighting for their people, their country or anything like that but simply for money and politics, that's okay if they at least understand what they are doing and why. But then those who believe all the propaganda about fight for freedom and justice, I really don't know how some people can be that clueless. (And of course same thing can be said about a lot of other military organizations all around the world too)...



I think Manning did the right thing, exposed US war crimes and how US actions in Afghanistan and elsewhere have mainly caused problems instead of solving them. Now we only have to see if American people start to demand a change to this madness or if United States turns into an authoritarian militaristic police state, more so than it already is.

[Edited 2013-08-04 13:22:41]
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AeroWesty
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:35 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 29):
Since WW2 no American soldier has died for their fellow countrymen, freedom or anything like that.

If nothing else, at least your posts maintain an entertaining rhythm of going off-topic in the most ludicrous misinterpretations of history.
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Ken777
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:56 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 29):
I think Manning did the right thing,

And I believe he is a traitor, pure & simple. It might be because he is basically a dumb young man easily manipulated, but he is still a traitor. He has pleaded Guilty to multiple charges and has then ben found guilty of most charges against him. Total up the number of years he "Could" be sentenced to and you get a good idea of the scope of his crimes.

If his sentences are consecutive (as opposed to concurrent) he might leave prison feet first at some point in the future.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:16 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 30):
If nothing else, at least your posts maintain an entertaining rhythm of going off-topic in the most ludicrous misinterpretations of history.

Your are entitled to your opinion about him and what he writes, like everyone is......

But also, don't forget, history has always been "interpreted" and it can often come down, to what particular history book you pick up, and when.

And from what Ive read just here on a.net, you just have to search for the "interpretation" that suits any particular argument one is trying to make and stick to it.

Politicians do it all the time, some, much better than others !   
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pvjin
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:18 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 30):
If nothing else, at least your posts maintain an entertaining rhythm of going off-topic in the most ludicrous misinterpretations of history.

Nah it's the truth, maybe one can argue that Korean War was for the freedom of Korean people, but other than that I really can't count a single military operation that would have been motivated by truly protecting or bringing freedom or justice to anyone.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:29 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 33):
I really can't count a single military operation that would have been motivated by truly protecting or bringing freedom or justice to anyone.

In the 1960s, it was a widely held belief that the war in Vietnam was to help avoid the spread of communism throughout SE Asia—which could be a threat to the U.S. plus ours and our ally's interests abroad—with the side benefit of a back door war with the USSR in the cold war era without it taking place on American or Soviet soil.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion on that matter as well, no matter how entertainingly your posts are embellished.
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connies4ever
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:31 pm

Quoting Fallap (Reply 17):
"Treason implies responsibility for something, control over something, influence upon something, knowledge of something. Treason in our time is a proof of genius. Why, I want to know, are not traitors decorated?"

Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Flight to Arras. 1942

Wise words from a gifted aviator, author, and human being. And before anyone jumps on his words, don't forget he disappeared over the Med in 1944 flying a reco mission for the Allies.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 18):
There is little doubt that similar future whistleblowing of 'secret' information in the military and government agencies will mean escalating and more severe penalties for anyone who may consider it.

I think that's the whole point of the draconian manner in which US authorities have pursued both he and Assange: to send a message. It is also interesting that, as has been pointed out earlier, no American shown to be guilty of a crime in these documents has been charged with anything. Does double standard come to mind ?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 9):
I would guess that you feel your country has done that also. I would hope the US is not your primary target. Remember world history.

My feelings aren't as strong as curtisman's, but yes, I feel the same as my country. Although I'm no history major, I believe that every international conflict that Canada has been involved in in my lifetime has been from following the US as an ally.

Tell you something, Iraq is likely America's worst foreign policy blunder, but for Canada, it's Afghanistan. Both former PM Chretien and our current el Supremo, Harper, have trumpeted "the mission" as defending democracy and liberty here, and bringing it to Afghanis. What a load of crap. We only went there under extreme pressure from the US, demonstrating once again what a lap dog we are. Our presence in Afghanistan, big picture, has meant zilch to the locals. I mean the ones we didn't kill. Frankly, I'm ashamed of our actions.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 22):
The US, and many other Western (former) democracies, are turning into shades of ancient Rome, where the one crime that got you crucified was posing a perceived threat to the all powerful state.

  

Well, got a lot off my chest there. Feel better.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:17 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 29):
I think Manning did the right thing, exposed US war crimes and how US actions in Afghanistan and elsewhere have mainly caused problems instead of solving them. Now we only have to see if American people start to demand a change to this madness or if United States turns into an authoritarian militaristic police state, more so than it already is.

My suspicion is that he did it to make the military look bad rather than fight for human rights. What is your take on that? Not attacking your view or anything, just asking an honest question. Think politics aside, look at what he released and how he released it. Don't you think if he was actually trying to fight for justice he would have gone about it differently?
 
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pvjin
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:48 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
My suspicion is that he did it to make the military look bad rather than fight for human rights. What is your take on that? Not attacking your view or anything, just asking an honest question. Think politics aside, look at what he released and how he released it. Don't you think if he was actually trying to fight for justice he would have gone about it differently?

Well yeah considering how he was treated in the military that's quite possible too, in any case the result of his actions was a good thing.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:57 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 37):
Well yeah considering how he was treated in the military that's quite possible too, in any case the result of his actions was a good thing.

Well being completely objective and open minded, what do you think about the verdict? I know your thoughts of it overall, but take the politics out. Let's assume we forgive him for all the whistleblowing of actual controversial files... I am a strong supporter of people uncovering unjust action. We are still left with a ton of classified files that he indiscriminately released that have no value in regards to justice. These files didn't just fall through the cracks, he could have very well not included them and only released the controversial files.

That to me indicates he wasn't just whistleblowing, just trying to piss off the US military. You may not care, only about the end result, but that just reeks of bias.

Again, if he just released the damning files, it would be a different story. But he didn't, and it's wrong to ignore half the story

Edit: I'm tired so sorry if I'm confusing, but I guess what I'm trying to say is just because someone does something right or something you like doesn't excuse them from something wrong they did. That's not how our justice system works

[Edited 2013-08-04 23:38:01]
 
connies4ever
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:19 pm

Related to, but not directly part of this thread, is the following opinion piece currently in cnn.com. It speaks to Bush II's comments about an 'endless war' against terrorism. (whatever that actually might be), the need for warrantless wiretaps, etc. I believe that is at least part of what Bradley / Assange / et al are trying to draw attention to.

Apologies if this is considered thread jacking.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/03/opinio...eale-1984-now/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

I don't necessarily agree with all of what Mr Beale argues, but some at least is true. For example, the use of certain terminology to paint selected people as 'bad' (and of course the government is 'good', by definition). To justify secrecy at all costs, even where it threatens democracy. What is needed in our society (writ large, as in 'The West') is transparency. In such way, citizens can make actual informed decisions, Not to be led or prodded like cattle.
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pvjin
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:59 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
Well being completely objective and open minded, what do you think about the verdict? I know your thoughts of it overall, but take the politics out. Let's assume we forgive him for all the whistleblowing of actual controversial files... I am a strong supporter of people uncovering unjust action. We are still left with a ton of classified files that he indiscriminately released that have no value in regards to justice. These files didn't just fall through the cracks, he could have very well not included them and only released the controversial files.

Well I understand the need for the verdict in that sense, after all if he didn't get any punishment it could encourage other people working for different US organizations to leak all kind of information, possibly just to annoy the government / miltary and not for any proper reason like Snowden / Manning IMO have done.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
Ken777
Posts: 10148
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:31 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
just trying to piss off the US military.

Well, he succeeded.

Which is a pretty stupid thing to do. Now he gets to spend the rest of his life figuring out how stupid he was.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:30 pm

Interesting take on Bradley Manning by a Michigan Congressman (Note: a Republican):

http://www.politico.com/blogs/politi...wer-not-traitor-169873.html?hp=r10

A priori, I would have thought the reflexive view of GOP members is that Manning is a traitor and deserves what he gets. Perhaps I'll have to re-think that.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Ken777
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:03 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 42):
I would have thought the reflexive view of GOP members is that Manning is a traitor and deserves what he gets

There will be some members of the GOP who will feel this way, but let's see what a jury has to say.

All that I have seen is a guy taking 4 laptops to the Chinese and then the Russians, with delivering some of the data being given to newspapers.

Traitor sounds closer to the truth to me.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:34 pm

can someone remind all of us here how long the sentences were for the personnel who committed some of the most appalling crimes in Iraq? Those very crimes that Manning sort to expose to the world..hardly seems like a fair outcome to me.
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:20 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 12):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 11):
So one man is a whistle blower and provides government secrets to the world and he is a hero.

Who?

Daniel Ellsberg, for one.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 44):
can someone remind all of us here how long the sentences were for the personnel who committed some of the most appalling crimes in Iraq? Those very crimes that Manning sort to expose to the world..hardly seems like a fair outcome to me.
Quoting tu204 (Reply 26):
Of course this guy is guilty. But what worries me is at as far as I know. From all of the information he released, nobody has been charged with anything. I was hoping that there is some hope left for the U.S...at least put on a show trial charging somebody with war crimes. But no...sad.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
NorthstarBoy
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:00 am

Honestly, I dont get the general obsession with keeping the secrets secret,

I mean, as tax payers, the ones paying the bills, dont we have an innate right to know everything our government is doing?

The analogy I always think of is this: You walk into a shop and there's no merchandise being displayed, there's literally nothing on the walls and nothing in the display cases. You walk up to the clerk and say you'd like to buy something and he says, "Fine, that'll be a thousand dollars." "That's fine," you say, "but what exactly am i buying for that thousand dollars?" "I'm sorry sir, i cant tell you that, but i cant you leave the shop until you pay the thousand dollars." Imagine also in the business world, if you were to hand in an expense report indicating you've spent thousand of dollars of company money, but the details of the report are blank and there are no receipts attached detailing down to the penny exactly what you spent and for what. Also imagine that when your boss queried you on what you spent the money on, and you say "i'm sorry, i cant tell you that, but I do need to be reimbursed." He'd laugh you out of the room.

In either one of the above scenarios, a stone wall answer would not be acceptable, yet, we seem to have no trouble handing over up to 39 percent of our earned income and being told virtually nothing about what it's being spent on. And, matter of factly, when someone does come out and tell us what our money is being spent on, we turn around and call him a traitor! I just dont get that. I'd think we'd want to know *exactly* what our money is being spent on with specific details including dates.

On another note, I am glad Manning was acquitted of the charge related to aiding the enemy, because had he been convicted of that, it would be tantamount to our government telling us that we, the public, are the enemy.

Finally, I saw on a news ticker today that the judge was going to reduce his sentence. I dont know what his sentence will be, but, personally, I think the judge should be thanking him for his service in releasing this information to the public.
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pvjin
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:09 am

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 44):
can someone remind all of us here how long the sentences were for the personnel who committed some of the most appalling crimes in Iraq? Those very crimes that Manning sort to expose to the world..hardly seems like a fair outcome to me.

Probably nothing or very light sentences. The guy who commanded the war ship that shot down Iran Air 655 got a medal, I think US military and government really don't care too much about deaths of innocent civilians as long as they aren't American and preferably not from other US friendly western countries either.

Of course they give some light punishment in most extreme cases that can't be covered up, like when someone clearly commits a war crime intentionally such as the US soldier with mental issues who massacred a lot of Afghan villagers or those who raped underage girl and then killed her and her family.

This is the world we live in, two misguided young men kill 3 people in Boston marathon and one later, there's instantly huge media coverage related to it while US military might kill 10 civilians in Afghanistan "by accident" and at best there might be a tiny article about it in some internet newspaper until in a couple of hours it disappears under heavy flood of news about irrelevant things such as English royal family getting a new member.

[Edited 2013-08-07 02:13:56]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:21 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 47):
This is the world we live in,

There's a huge worldwide fascination with what goes on in the United States. You wouldn't be posting about it yourself if it didn't fascinate you, so you're just as guilty as those you condemn. Only by refraining from your constant analysis of everything American could you even begin to convince anyone that that couldn't be true. But that would destroy your raison d'être. It's a vicious cycle only you can stop.
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pvjin
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:34 am

I wouldn't call it fascination, just US being the biggest economic, cultural and political power at the moment causes media attention to turn into that direction, some day it might be China which will take that place.

I'm posting about it just because it's impossible to avoid as media is full about relatively irrelevant things happening in the US and in western world in general, though not saying that terrorist attacks like the Boston bombings in the US would necessarily be that irrelevant as they might have an effect on international level regarding to US foreign politics.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr

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