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AeroWesty
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:48 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 49):
I wouldn't call it fascination

Just review your posts in this thread alone. It's a continuous fascination with everything American. Not that that's bad, but recognize it for what it is, a fascination. Every facet of American life.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 49):
I'm posting about it just because it's impossible to avoid

95% of what you post is your opinion on America. Again there's nothing wrong with that, but it should explain to you why you're fed that steady diet to feed your hunger. Once you start letting it not be important, those who need to sell their soap will find something else to entertain your senses and brain with.
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connies4ever
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:48 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 46):
On another note, I am glad Manning was acquitted of the charge related to aiding the enemy, because had he been convicted of that, it would be tantamount to our government telling us that we, the public, are the enemy.

Which is entirely the mindset of our current Prime Minister, Steven Harper. Almost everything is stamped "Secret". Especially the state of his marriage.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 47):
Probably nothing or very light sentences. The guy who commanded the war ship that shot down Iran
Air 655 got a medal, I think US military and government really don't care too much about deaths of innocent civilians as long as they aren't American and preferably not from other US friendly western countries either.

Indeed. I have seen video of the Command Centre on Vincennes after the shootdown. With all the hooting, hollering, and high-fiving, you'd have thought Navy had just beat Army. The lack of discipline displayed was shocking.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 48):
There's a huge worldwide fascination with what goes on in the United States.

It's not fascination, it's self interest. As the biggest economy, everyone needs to be aware of at least the major trends in American business and society. Much of the "fascination" out there is morphing into revulsion.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:50 am

Yeah well quite a lot of the most interesting discussion related to politics just happen to have US government and/or military involved in it, it's not like I wouldn't be equally interested in political discussion centered around other countries too, such as the the way Iran is now heading under new president.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:11 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 51):
It's not fascination, it's self interest.

Yes, right, political theory debates regarding a foreign country is necessary for one's functioning in daily life. That must be it.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 52):
such as the the way Iran is now heading under new president.

You're free to open a thread. Gosh, I hope you know you don't have to wait for someone else to do it.
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connies4ever
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:54 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 53):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 51):
It's not fascination, it's self interest.

Yes, right, political theory debates regarding a foreign country is necessary for one's functioning in daily life. That must be it.

Not really, but watching what is happening, or is likely to happen, in the USA is in Canada's interest so as to better position this country going forward. An old expression relevant to this discussion is "Watch your enemies closely, but your allies even more closely".

As an individual, I don't care much about what happens in your country. I have no plans to visit the USA again, most likely ever. Possibly if there was a business reason, but that's it. There's really not much there to get excited about, given all the many things up here, and around the world. And I get to avoid all those people with guns.

Ciao, y'all.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:00 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 53):
You're free to open a thread. Gosh, I hope you know you don't have to wait for someone else to do it.

Yeah I know I can and probably I will when something interesting actually starts happening in that sector, now it's still too early to know if some serious changes are actually going to happen and how seriously Iran is really willing to negotiate.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Moose135
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:41 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 42):
A priori, I would have thought the reflexive view of GOP members is that Manning is a traitor and deserves what he gets.

It depends on who is in the Oval Office...
 
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Ken777
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:12 pm

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 46):
I mean, as tax payers, the ones paying the bills, dont we have an innate right to know everything our government is doing?

In a Utopian world where there was no conflict, nor a need for a Department of Defense that might be the case. But we don't live in a Utopian world. Realities of this world dictate that we have a Department of Defense, with all the classified R&D that such a Department entails. We have been attacked on our shores and that dictates that we use the technologies we have to search for other risks to our country.

You simply don't have the right to know all the R&D that the DoD has going on. That's because you don't have a need to know. Same with the NSA. Or Homeland Defense. Or any other Department that might be involved directly or indirectly with our security. You simply don't have a need to know that will legally grant you access to those secrets.

And, if you are a Manning or a Snowden then you are a traitor in my eyes.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
In a Utopian world where there was no conflict, nor a need for a Department of Defense that might be the case.

You realize of course that in Greek, "utopia" means "no place". Nowhere.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
You simply don't have the right to know all the R&D that the DoD has going on. That's because you don't have a need to know. Same with the NSA. Or Homeland Defense. Or any other Department that might be involved directly or indirectly with our security. You simply don't have a need to know that will legally grant you access to those secrets.

And, if you are a Manning or a Snowden then you are a traitor in my eyes.

Must be nice to have a black and white world in front of you. Was Daniel Ellsberg a traitor ? And by the government (yours or mine) classifying more and more mundane activities as "Secret" in order to cover their own asses, does someone who peels back the veil on these activities become a traitor ? Seriously, if that's your p.o.v., you're a true fan of "1984".
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Ken777
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 58):
Seriously, if that's your p.o.v., you're a true fan of "1984".

I could care less about the CYA issues - there is no way that Manning's only released CTA related secrets.

My POV comes from actually serving in the military and being given a security clearance after a background investigation. Not a big deal - a lot of people were in the same situation - but it does make you aware of your responsibilities related to security. There were "things" I was aware of that still needs to be kept secret as it may cost people lives - if they are still alive. And that goes back to the Vietnam War.

Or maybe you can put it this way - you take the oath, you keep it. That goes back long before 1984.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:33 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 59):
My POV comes from actually serving in the military and being given a security clearance after a background investigation. Not a big deal - a lot of people were in the same situation - but it does make you aware of your responsibilities related to security. There were "things" I was aware of that still needs to be kept secret as it may cost people lives - if they are still alive. And that goes back to the Vietnam War.


Me too (the security, not the military. Although the company was at one time part of the Army). Secret level, covering nuclear issues involving the military, who I had to deal with pretty regularly for best part of a decade. Had to brief the brass hats on many occasions. Largely a bunch of wankers. It was on occasion difficult to be patient with them. Could not embrace new thinking (fear or just being dumbasses, I'm not certain to this day).

What was it, or what were they ? Can't say: secret.  

But my main point is and will remain: there is far, far too much use of the term "Secret" in government or the military to CYA for people who should be terminated for cause (i.e., either they're dumbasses or criminals). And I'll support people who out them.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:29 pm

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 46):
I mean, as tax payers, the ones paying the bills, dont we have an innate right to know everything our government is doing?

Depends. Don't you believe there are things that tell the public nothing useful but jeopardize lives? I think it's gone overboard in many areas, but secrets have their places. I'm sure that's what you meant though

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 50):
95% of what you post is your opinion on America. Again there's nothing wrong with that, but it should explain to you why you're fed that steady diet to feed your hunger. Once you start letting it not be important, those who need to sell their soap will find something else to entertain your senses and brain with.

I kinda agree with AeroWesty, pvjin. I am pretty patriotic and in the military but I completely understand criticism of our government and its flaws... it's what makes a democracy honest and healthy. I have my disagreements too. But you come across as extremely one sided. A lot of your points I understand, many I agree with in theory, but you often take it to the extreme and will exaggerate the bad and barely mention the good, if at all. It's hard to debate with someone like that.

I can easily accept that the US military makes mistakes (yes, many if not most are mistakes, they happen in war, which is why war should be the last resort but that's for another thread) and I can accept that they often don't mention them... but at least acknowledge that it may be to try and quell civilian anger or save face, and trust me, every unit I've seen gives many briefs about helping the locals and avoiding harming them in any way.

You may disagree with them trying to save face or not mentioning atrocities, but come one, at least acknowledge the probable reasons why and avoid the tired corrupt old generals hate civilians or whatever crap. I won't deny there are bad people and lots of politicians in the high ranks, but the generals and admirals I've met actually do care about the population... most started off as low ranking, caring, uncorrupt servicemembers.

Just a suggestion, I think we could exchange a lot more dialogue that way. You may understand us a bit better too... not saying to accept our views or anything, just understand where we are coming from
 
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moo
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:08 pm

Aaaaaand he's got 35 years, minus time served and additional recompense of 112 days credit for initial harsh treatment.

He will have to serve at least a third of the sentence before he could receive parole, and he will also forfeit some pay and receive a dishonourable discharge.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:07 pm

Good to see he didn't get 60 year sentence or anything totally unreasonable like that.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
bennett123
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:17 pm

IMO, he weakened his position by publishing everything, rather than "the bad things".

The idea that whatever the Govt puts a "secret" stamp on, must never be spoken about places limitless trust in people who are falliable.
 
L-188
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:20 pm

Lighter than I would have liked but I can live with it.

The idea he can get parol in only ten or fifteen years however does bother me. It would have been better if the sentence was long so that he would have to spend more time thinking about his crimes before being released.

Also with the dishonorable discharge over his head he will not have an easy time.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:25 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 65):
Lighter than I would have liked but I can live with it.

The idea he can get parol in only ten or fifteen years however does bother me. It would have been better if the sentence was long so that he would have to spend more time thinking about his crimes before being released.

Also with the dishonorable discharge over his head he will not have an easy time.

I wish they had thrown the book at him. Won't matter. When he gets out even McDonalds won't hire him... He'd tell everyone what's in the Big Mac secret sauce.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
L-188
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:31 pm

It's just thousand island dressing Boeing717200

But a lot of employers won't his dishonorable discharges so his options are going to be limited.

Also the longer his is in prison the more of his supporters will loose interest and not want support him when he gets out. S
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:02 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 65):
The idea he can get parol in only ten or fifteen years however does bother me. It would have been better if the sentence was long so that he would have to spend more time thinking about his crimes before being released.

Why so, In 'Murica there's even a terrorist who's responsible for bombing a passenger airliner living freely without ever getting sentenced at all, so why should this guy spend rest of his life in a prison just for leaking some government files?
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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moo
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 68):

Because there's no "just" about what Manning did.

And failure to prosecute in one totally separate case doesn't mean everything else has to stop until that's been corrected.
 
redflyer
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:07 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 65):
It would have been better if the sentence was long so that he would have to spend more time thinking about his crimes before being released.

He could do a lot of thinking in just a few years; that is not a justification for making him spend more time in prison. The real justification for more prison time, and the real reason why this sentence is a spit in the eye of others, is the fact that it isn't really a deterrent and does not set an example. In theory, he could be out before the age of 35. He will still have a whole lifetime ahead to go out and enjoy himself. That is the travesty of this sentence. While I don't think he would need to spend the rest of his natural life in prison for his crimes, a sentence that would have set him free in his 50's or 60's would have been more appropriate.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:07 pm

let's see how long Robert Bales get's for killing 16 Afghan civilians...if 15 years bothers some for releasing documents then I'd hate to think what's adequate for Bales.

BTW, the catalyst for this, the Baghdad Airstrike, has there been any trial or form of justice administered to those involved in that crime?
 
redflyer
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:02 pm

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 71):
let's see how long Robert Bales get's for killing 16 Afghan civilians

He will never see the light of day again. He already copped a plea agreeing to receive a life sentence with no parole in exchange for avoiding the death penalty.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
Ken777
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:04 pm

35 years can be a long time and parole is not guaranteed. Put him in a cage for even 10 years and the guy knows he is being punished and really screwed up.

The only question I have is the guy's ability to earn a living when he does get out. Mowing lawns? Riding the back of a garbage truck? There are a lot of manual labor jobs he could do, but basically zip for a normal career. No pity from me. At least in prison he has 3 hots and a cot.
 
redflyer
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:11 pm

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 71):
BTW, the catalyst for this, the Baghdad Airstrike, has there been any trial or form of justice administered to those involved in that crime?

What was the crime that was committed?
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:39 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 68):
Why so, In 'Murica there's even a terrorist who's responsible for bombing a passenger airliner living freely without ever getting sentenced at all, so why should this guy spend rest of his life in a prison just for leaking some government files?

I really am beginning to think you are a troll, can you say anything without putting an immature anti-American spin on it? Start a new thread on the other guy, you're really annoying. We are far from perfect but we're not as obnoxious and evil as they teach you guys in Finland

Quoting redflyer (Reply 70):
That is the travesty of this sentence. While I don't think he would need to spend the rest of his natural life in prison for his crimes, a sentence that would have set him free in his 50's or 60's would have been more appropriate.

I think it's a good sentence... I laid out why I don't think he was a whistle blower (a whistle blower would have only released damning files, not a blanket, lazy release) and I know he was "an adult," but really, he was just a stupid PFC and stupid PFCs make stupid mistakes. Him serving 35 years or even 1/3 of that is a very very long time and his life has been changed forever... he got his punishment. I think he can get out and live a productive life and his debt to society has been paid

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 71):

let's see how long Robert Bales get's for killing 16 Afghan civilians...if 15 years bothers some for releasing documents then I'd hate to think what's adequate for Bales.

BTW, the catalyst for this, the Baghdad Airstrike, has there been any trial or form of justice administered to those involved in that crime?

Are you talking about the Apache pilot? (I assume you are.) Did the Apache pilot violate the Rules of Engagement? There is a fog of war, and IDC if you can watch the footage a few times and conclude to yourself that they were cameras, it's totally reasonable for him to have assumed what he did. He even asked for permission to engage rather than just shot away right off the bat. It sucks, things like that happen in war, which is why we need to avoid wars if at all possible--that's for another thread though. Just like the Zimmerman case, it looks like the pilot followed the rules technically, so if you have a problem, complain about the ROE, not the soldiers following it
 
RobertNL070
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:53 pm

I bet Bradley Manning now wishes he were in George Zimmerman's shoes.
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pvjin
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:04 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 75):
I really am beginning to think you are a troll, can you say anything without putting an immature anti-American spin on it? Start a new thread on the other guy, you're really annoying. We are far from perfect but we're not as obnoxious and evil as they teach you guys in Finland

All I'm saying is that US government should give people sentences that would be somehow logical compared to the harm done, at least I personally see bombing down a Cuban passenger jet as a worse crime than leaking bunch of government files. Protecting a terrorist just because he happened to commit his act against nationals of an enemy country is totally unacceptable.

Ordinary American people aren't any more bad or evil than people elsewhere, however your government and the law system it controls surely are and those are what I'm criticizing.

Anyway yeah let's forget that guy, I think I will make a thread about him 11th of September to remind people that there's a still terrorist guilty of horrible crimes roaming around in Miami, nearly 40 years after he committed his biggest crime and over 10 years since the start of "war on terror".

[Edited 2013-08-21 14:07:03]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:32 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 77):
All I'm saying is that US government should give people sentences that would be somehow logical compared to the harm done, at least I personally see bombing down a Cuban passenger jet as a worse crime than leaking bunch of government files. Protecting a terrorist just because he happened to commit his act against nationals of an enemy country is totally unacceptable.

But the two really have nothing to do with each other. The court that ruled on Manning has nothing to do with whatever government corruption did or didn't happen involving the bomber (I'll have to look that up, I'm just taking your word for it and there might be another side of the argument or a good reason why he's not arrested) and this also has nothing to do with the Zimmerman case which has been brought up by someone else.

The anti-American spin just gets tiring. I see your name and I know that there is a 90% chance there will be some bias in it. It just takes away from what you have to say... in some posts, you really do have some good things to say against our government, but you're often like the anti-GOP and just default to an anti-American spin. Our government is very far from perfect but that doesn't mean every single thing we do is wrong
 
cptkrell
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:27 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 59):
My POV comes from actually serving in the military and being given a security clearance after a background investigation. Not a big deal - a lot of people were in the same situation - but it does make you aware of your responsibilities related to security. There were "things" I was aware of that still needs to be kept secret as it may cost people lives - if they are still alive. And that goes back to the Vietnam War.Or maybe you can put it this way - you take the oath, you keep it. That goes back long before 1984.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 59):
My POV comes from actually serving in the military and being given a security clearance after a background investigation. Not a big deal - a lot of people were in the same situation - but it does make you aware of your responsibilities related to security. There were "things" I was aware of that still needs to be kept secret as it may cost people lives - if they are still alive. And that goes back to the Vietnam War.Or maybe you can put it this way - you take the oath, you keep it. That goes back long before 1984.

Yes, check mark.

Here's the deal. As all too often (and I admit I am guilty at times, also) so many comments go back to previous circumstances. We are not talking about the 1940's, the VietNam era or page 56 in whatever history book we are engulfed in. Although the "forget history and it will repeat itself" the current thread is about now...today...again, current.

I, too, am knowlegeable in certain still classified areas when I was in a sensitive position of the USA in the 1970's. Do I speak? No. My oldest daughter was with Gen Schwarzkoph on the first. Does she speak? No. We actually are swarn to
certain areas we respect. Part of that is "silence".

My opinion mirrrors Ken777; One may be privey to stuff - you can't talk about the stuff - so keep your friggen mouth shut or face retrubutions that may affect the rest of your life if you can't control your tongue wagging.

I have no problem with this little twit having a very difficult "retirement".

This far exceeds a whistle-blower identifying (which I don't disagree with, BTW) an abusive captain porking his big-titted lady sergeant; national security "papers" and such classified information is just that. Classified.

My thoughts only...best regards...jack
all best; jack
 
connies4ever
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:46 am

Ambivalent about the decision, sentence seems long. I would have thought more lie 20 years. Whatever. Good luck on that White House pardon, not going to happen.

Reaching back into my dusty memory for some Turkish. Judges at one time said, as prisoners were being led away to start their sentence, (forgive my lousy Turkish) "Getchmis olsun", which, again IIRC, means roughly "may it pass quickly".
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Stabilator
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:22 pm

Coming across the wires that Manning wishes to undergo hormone therapy and become a woman. His lawyer is attempting to change his name to Chelsea.

Last ditch attempt at lightening the sentence perhaps?
So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
 
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moo
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:19 pm

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 81):

Well, he's going to be used as a woman in the prison showers, so why not go the whole hog?

But, who is going to pay for his therapy and treatment?
 
cptkrell
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:26 pm

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 81):
Coming across the wires that Manning wishes to undergo hormone therapy and become a woman. His lawyer is attempting to change his name to Chelsea.

Last ditch attempt at lightening the sentence perhaps?

Yeah, I just heard that on "Imus in the Morning", and the crew on his TV show was asking the exact same question. For real (his personal confusion about sexuality) or a last-ditch attempt for sympathy. No sympathy from me irrespective of what is, is. regards...jack
all best; jack
 
Gatorman96
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:16 pm

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 81):

Last ditch attempt at lightening the sentence perhaps?

Who knows, but certainly an attempt to pin an excuse for his actions on gender confusion and garner public sympathy (none here!).

I'm assuming if he wants to undergo hormone therapy, wear a wig, and become a woman, they would surely have to move him to a female prison, no?
 
PHX787
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:24 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 82):
But, who is going to pay for his therapy and treatment?

No one. He will not be allowed to undergo this in prison.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:17 pm

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 81):
Coming across the wires that Manning wishes to undergo hormone therapy and become a woman. His lawyer is attempting to change his name to Chelsea.

Last ditch attempt at lightening the sentence perhaps?

A little late for that I would think, but nothing would surprise me.

I've never been gender-ly confused, and I'm sure it's 'stressful' and all, but as an excuse to go and release a bunch of classified documents? I don't buy it. It wouldn't work for really really stressed out people like those that went through extreme combat or the common 'my wife/gf is sleeping with my best friend at home and drained my bank account and left me' (those two happen all the time and I'm pretty sure those are more stressful than gender confusion.)

In the end, ok, you want to pursue being a woman, fine. But I don't want to have to pay for it (besides the normal [non-hormonal] therapy offered for prisoners in general.) I don't see that as people having a fundamental right to get sex change treatment in prison, call me insensitive...
 
L-188
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:18 pm

I am not sure bradley has thought this out.

Dressing up like and renaming himself after her daughter isnt going to endear her to give him a pardon if (god forbid) Hillary becomes president.
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:32 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 85):
Quoting moo (Reply 82):
But, who is going to pay for his therapy and treatment?

No one. He will not be allowed to undergo this in prison.

I think - not sure, but I believe - this statement is true only if he has not yet started any kind of sexual reassignment procedures. However, if he has already started them then I believe that the Feds will need to continue them. But given that he's been in custody for the past few years and I don't believe any reassignment treatment requirements have been mentioned in the press (and I'm sure it would have been by now since his gender identity issues were reported long ago) I would venture to guess his "treatment" has not yet started. So he will probably spend the next ten years as a male inmate, albeit "Bubba's Bitch".
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:01 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 85):
No one. He will not be allowed to undergo this in prison.

Really?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-therapy-in-prison-will-it-happen/

"The United States Bureau of Prisons recently faced challenges to its policy of only providing hormone therapy to an inmate if that person had received such care prior to incarceration.

“Where inmates have been denied care, courts have said that’s unconstitutional,” says Jennifer Levi, director of the Transgender Rights Project at Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders. “I don’t know of any cases that have been brought yet against military prisons. But they would have the same obligation to provide adequate medical care.”


And one specific case, concerning Vanessa Adams:

" Adams had been diagnosed with gender identity disorder; Manning has also received the same diagnosis.

Adams filed a lawsuit in 2009 after her prison denied treatment. That suit was settled outside of court two years later, with one prong of the settlement being a change to prison policy, allowing hormone therapy treatment to start in prison."


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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:08 pm

It is interesting to note that this whole discussion is happening at the same time as everyone is discussing why nobody is doing anything about the civilians being slaughtered in Syria...

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 57):
You simply don't have the right to know all the R&D that the DoD has going on. That's because you don't have a need to know.

Not to mention a lot of the stuff he released was of a much more mundane variety - basically gossip flowing back and forth between embassies and consular offices (which is their job, after all). Funny that when it is convenient a lot of people of a leftist persuasion seem to think government employees should not be entitled to e-mail addresses but just carry out all their communications publicly over Twitter, but when it comes time to uncovering signs of an obvious conspiracy to harm taxpayers they will stonewall efforts by a legitimate investigative body (see the current IRS scandal).

Quoting L-188 (Reply 65):
Also with the dishonorable discharge over his head he will not have an easy time.
Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 66):
I wish they had thrown the book at him. Won't matter. When he gets out even McDonalds won't hire him... He'd tell everyone what's in the Big Mac secret sauce.

Are you kidding? When he gets out he will be the darling of the radical left - they will practically have to clone him so he can deliver all the college campus lectures and speeches they will book him on.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 79):
I, too, am knowlegeable in certain still classified areas when I was in a sensitive position of the USA

Doesn't even have to do with information sensitive from a security perspective. As a part of my job I have access to a lot of sensitive information from a financial perspective and if I so much as casually name-drop some of the stuff I know on a conversation I will not only be fired by my employer but have the SEC up my ass.
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:20 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 86):
I don't see that as people having a fundamental right to get sex change treatment in prison, call me insensitive...

Considering it isn't medically necessary I don't see why anyone should have to pay for it, other than himself.

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 84):
I'm assuming if he wants to undergo hormone therapy, wear a wig, and become a woman, they would surely have to move him to a female prison, no?

I wonder what the female inmates would think of him?

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 84):
Who knows, but certainly an attempt to pin an excuse for his actions on gender confusion and garner public sympathy (none here!).

I'm sure he'll lose more sympathy than he gains. Maybe he wants the LBGT community to help him out. I know a lot of right wingers who love the guy. I bet a number of them will change their minds now. I always thought he was a doofus who did something dumb and tried to weasel out of it. I am sure of it now.

I don't understand gender confusion. If you have a fully functional set of male reproductive parts and your chromosomes make you a man than you are a man plain and simple. I don't think that kind of thinking is that uncommon. I know gays that feel that transgenders are "icky". At the school I teach at there are about a dozen openly gay students, they even have a club. However last year a kid claimed he was transgender and he was bullied out of school, mostly by the gay students. Which I found funny because those students are always talking about excepting people for who they are, but then somebody came along they didn't like and they weren't any better than the kids who pick on them.
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:47 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 91):
I don't understand gender confusion. If you have a fully functional set of male reproductive parts and your chromosomes make you a man than you are a man plain and simple.

I think it's hard to imagine for anyone what it must be like to be the "wrong guy in a wrong body". Perceiving yourself as a male has to do with physiology only to an extent. A good point of reference might be that decorated Navy Seal guy who went through the complete sex change procedure... you can't think of a better example of a job that requires physically 101% male to make it among Navy Seals. Yet this guy was apparently inside himself?/herself? uncomfortable enough that he decided to undergo such a dramatic change.

Whether Manning is a geniune case as well or it's just a well thought out plot in order to avoid being everyone's bitch in a male prison, I can't tell. What I am trying to say is that the gender identity confusion is no fun for those affected and I see a potential for a huge disservice being done to them thanks to Manning becoming a household name everyone will associate gender confusion with.
 
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:02 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 89):

The Military released a statement saying that they won't do it.
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:11 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 92):
I think it's hard to imagine for anyone what it must be like to be the "wrong guy in a wrong body". Perceiving yourself as a male has to do with physiology only to an extent.

I agree it might be pretty stressful at times, but I think it's being blown way out of proportion. I'm sure someone who is very fat is stressed out and sad they are fat, a flat chested girl can get pretty upset she's not busty, an ugly guy can be upset he's ugly etc etc etc. Not a 100% apples to apples comparison, but I hardly see it as an excuse for anyone to bend the rules for him, pay for an unnecessary medical procedure, use it as a mental defense to leaking files, etc. Maybe not the most PC opinion but whatever
 
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:51 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 92):
Perceiving yourself as a male has to do with physiology only to an extent

I don't buy it. You are either are a man or a woman, with a few rare exceptions. Regardless of how you feel you are either on sex or the other. It isn't like being gay or straight because in that case you have a sexual preference but you are still a man or woman .
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:53 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 94):
but I hardly see it as an excuse for anyone to bend the rules for him, pay for an unnecessary medical procedure, use it as a mental defense to leaking files, etc.

Nowhere did I even remotely suggested any of that. Manning should rot in prison, whether it will be one for males or females is a detail.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 94):

I agree it might be pretty stressful at times, but I think it's being blown way out of proportion.

I do not have this problem so I can't tell. But there is a remedy available for being fat, not having big enough or too big boobs and there are surgical means how to deal with ugliness as well.
If sex change gives these people relief and peace of mind so be it. Both hormone and surgical therapy is fully covered by the insurance over here and I do not have problem with that. Because if I had, I would have to start worrying first about expensive chemotherapy for thousands of smokers every year, lenghty physiotherapy and disability pensions for those who cripple themselves speeding on motorbikes, therapy for drug addicts and alcoholics, etc. etc.
 
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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:23 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 93):
The Military released a statement saying that they won't do it.

Yes, they did. Look forward to the court case. From the same link:

"Manning was sentenced to serve 35 years at Fort Leavenworth Prison, a military prison in Kansas. A spokeswoman for the facility has already told the “Today Show” that ”the Army does not provide hormone therapy or sex-reassignment surgery for gender identity disorder.”

In response, Manning’s lawyer, David Coombs, told the same program that, “If Fort Leavenworth does not, then I’m going to do everything in my power to make sure they are forced to do so.”"


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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:08 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 97):
In response, Manning’s lawyer, David Coombs, told the same program that, “If Fort Leavenworth does not, then I’m going to do everything in my power to make sure they are forced to do so.”"

Well, Mr. Coombs might want to accelerate his envolvement in this priority case; unless "the" Manning is confined to an isolation detention, he may not NEED hormone therapy after a little while in prison.

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RE: Bradley Manning Verdict

Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:18 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 97):
In response, Manning’s lawyer, David Coombs, told the same program that, “If Fort Leavenworth does not, then I’m going to do everything in my power to make sure they are forced to do so.”"

I always figured Manning was a trouble maker. I figured he didn't give a damn about those secrets one way or another, he just wanted to be famous. Now he is at it again.
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